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Comments
That's why "full" hybrids are the future. Whether they use gas or diesel doesn't matter (pending emissions). The point is you want to only have to replace the battery-pack many years later, rather than the entire vehicle as is commonly done now. Remember, engine piston-rings wear out causing compression loss as time goes on. Since "full" hybrids use the engine less, the engine will last longer.
As the electric-only range & speed increases, that choice will become easy to accept. Right now, those that don't understand how "full" hybrids continue to fight that progress.
JOHN
That's why "full" hybrids are the future. Whether they use gas or diesel doesn't matter (pending emissions). The point is you want to only have to replace the battery-pack many years later, rather than the entire vehicle as is commonly done now. Remember, engine piston-rings wear out causing compression loss as time goes on. Since "full" hybrids use the engine less, the engine will last longer. "
The fact of the matter is it is a simple thing to engineer a gasser/diesel to last MANY more years than it already does. So if you are saying the gasser engine in the hybrid will last longer than a diesel, you are mistaken (actually wrong). But as the gasser/hybrid gets more years and miles... the proof shall be in the pudding so to speak.
RE: Ruking1.. didn't we once have this conversation? I have dejavu (sp)!! You actually think your car is gonna last a million miles??? HA!! Wishful thinking!!!
With the nice fat juicy tax credit from Uncle Sam, a nicely equipped Prius is net 23.5k. Pretty sweet!!!
Gotta love it!!!
Nope, it is a GOAL to paraphrase you from a previous post. Gassers lasting 250k are almost no brainers. My gasser 87 TLC easily had 20 years left on the body and frame even with 250,000 miles in 14 years. So with a diesel engine design life of 25,000 hours, in my case a lot more will depend on luck (not totalled by that cellphone talking gasser driver,etc). So reasonably, tires, brakes, rotors, will easily go 100,000 miles. Springs will go to 200,000. Shocks are at this point a wait and see to 150,000 and MAYBE 200,000. Alignment has been good so far to 69,000 miles. Clutch etc should go 400,000. Oil change intervals are at 25,000. Pick the cycle do the maintenance job.
However let's not overlook the obvious assumption that you are making and that is the oem's DO NOT want you to keep the cars TOO LONG !!!!! So I think given the auto salvage rates of something like 7/8% per year, they are working hard to try to drive that even lower. While we (I for sure) want to make that as high has possible. So I am sure Toyota really didnt like me putting 14 years on the TLC and doing 250,000 miles when 5 years and 60k would do.
If you are talking about series hybrids we can agree. Not that overly complex concoction that Toyota has dumped on the public.
What could be simpler than an electric motor driving the wheels with power provided by a generator that is powered by gas or diesel. Preferably diesel. You still get all the benefit of regen braking without any of the extra crap built in to make the car more expensive. You may not be able to see it but HSD technology is already outdated. Personally an electric car with a small ICE to charge it up when the batteries are low would suit my needs to a T. No way would I get sucked into a car that has an ECVT that costs $11k to replace, according to one person that was luckily covered by warranty. When I find a car I like I keep it a looong time. Current hybrids are not designed for 10-15 years of relatively trouble free service. Toyota builds cars like that, just not the hybrids. When I see a 10 year old Prius II still running with no major problems I will come over to your side of thinking.
I would also agree. As a base line on that 87 TLC, I had app 2000 of work done on it most of that sum in labor (alternator, starter, radiator core, master slave brake cylinder). So when we see a 10 year old Prius with 2000 or less in unscheduled maintenance and 150,000 to 250,000 miles I would then in 2014 say, I think you have something there.
I am a year away from 100,000 miles. Will do 100,000 on the oem tires, 120-130k on the oem front brake pads and rotors, 100k on the rear pads and rotors. The range of fuel mileage as been 44-62 mpg.
I will be due a scheduled "biggie" maintenance at 100k, a T/B and water pump change, just as the Honda Civic I have will be due one at 100k or so, also. Either of them, barring any bad luck is a slam dunk to 250,000 miles. I am also going to do 15,000-20,000 mile OCI's with the Civic, after the meager warranty of 36,000 miles.
So far, only a rear door lock TSB/ recall.
I am almost getting the feeling that with 26/28k per year I am probably better off not getting the Prius, or perhaps if lucky/unlucky would have had to soon fulfill on my battery warranty. But for sure, this is conjecture on my part.
Gotta love it!!
A few months ago I posted a study which compared hybrids to gasoline-only counterparts in regard to pollution created in mfg and over the life of the car. I will AGAIN look that information up and post it AGAIN so you can MAYBE FINALLY READ IT and get off this incorrect kick you are on about hybrid manufacturing and pollution...
Stay tuned !!!
http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/transport/publications/lightvehicles.html
So sure, the hybrid manufacturing process is slightly higher, which we knew, but the driving of the hybrid is SO MUCH LESS POLLUTING than the gasoline-only counterpart that the tiny extra manufacturing pollution is quickly erased.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf
Hybrids!!!
Gotta love em!!!
From the 2006 EPA Fuel Economy Guide
I also pointed out the FACTS with the Toyota LCA chart fairly. I did not say the Prius was more polluting while you drive it. If you only keep it for 3 years and 45k miles yes it would be more polluting. The only significant improvement is in CO2. You will never overcome the PM & HC with the Prius.
Now to keep this totally as a fair analysis. Toyota fails to mention the ICE only vehicle used to break even after 20k KM. If it is their 2 rated Corolla well what would you expect? If you matched the Prius up against one of the PZEV cars that are available I am sure it would stretch that breakeven point way out. I think it is safe and fair to say the only element that the Prius will improve on over the LC is CO2. The Japanese government paid a lot to get that result and the Prius delivers.
No matter how you skew the results of the Toyota study, a Prius pollutes more in manufacturing. When matched up against a PZEV ICE only car it does not come out smelling as well as you would like to believe.
With this VW if the common knowledge is to be believed, the VW has less than stellar overall record of reliability. So one can take the view that they really screwed up and got one right for a change?
I'm not saying that is not true - it IS true.
But the difference is that YOU are trying to make some huge deal about it, when I, and the studies I pointed to, both say that the "added pollution during mfg" is miniscule.
And the second study showed that ALL pollution factors, including HC, are less for the Prius in a 100,000 km lifecycle - that's only 62,000 miles !!! So after 62,000 miles in a Prius II, you have made up the total manufacturing AND fuel usage during ownership difference compared to an ICE-only comparable car !!
What do you think is the TOTAL number of Prius II cars which will be out of service before 62,000 miles? Not very many. And all those over 62,000 miles are already cleaner lifetime than comparables.
I don't think that is an issue. You and I have a totally different view of cars. I have two 1990 vehicles with less than 90k miles on them. Not everyone drives 35k miles per year. At the start of this discussion we were debating the longevity of the hybrids. NOT just mileage. How well will all the 33% additional parts, electronics and doo dads fare over 10 years or more. No one knows. The car is just barely 2 years old. The two most popular hybrids the Prius and HCH are not without problems. How much worse will they get with age? I don't think even you would try to say that the Prius is a simple solution.
Perhaps I will see the day when Toyota brings their Turbo Diesel Landcruiser into the USA!
I will reveal my purchase decision very soon. You may actually be surprised!
Edit: My Mercedes is really not that clean according to the EPA. I intend to sell it fairly soon.
It's true that "simple elegance" is a benefit, but some of the "best" things that technology have brought us in this lavish life we live are DEFINITELY not SIMPLE. Computers, the Internet, online banking, online stock trading, cell phones, etc - all beneficial to our society, but none "simple."
Regardless of how "complicated" you think the current crop of Hybrids are, they are without a doubt the "best" we have in the USA for cleanliness and highest MPG.
In my experience, I have been less worried about the engine in a car wearing out than everything else wearing out (windows, bearings, axles, trans, A/C, radiator, fuel injection, ..................... If every ten year old car out there just needed a new engine to be good as new, they would all be worth much more. Cars just wear out in general and people who can afford it buy new ones. Poorer people buy the cast-offs and try to maintain them. There are many 10 year old and older cars still on the road because the maintenance is relatively easy and cheap. How will the newer vehicles fare in this regard?
On the other side of it, I still remember the days when a 3k oil change was truly pushing it, tires lasted just enough to get you home, shock absorbers were toast at 10-15k etc. So truly I am mindful of the "new" longevity built into some or most cars. I for one would not like to see it go back to the "old days".
The expected life of the Prius is 98,000km or 54,444 miles!
Of all of Toyota vehicles, only the Landcruiser gets worse mileage than the Golf. Do you believe that?
One of the most noticeable differences is in the estimate of the total life-cycle energy consumption of a Japanese gasoline vehicle, which is about 270 GJ and the estimate of the total life-cycle energy consumption of the Golf III, which is 540 GJ. Part of this discrepancy is due to the shorter assumed life of the Japanese vehicle (98,000 km) compared with the European vehicle (150,000 km). However, as shown below, the mileage is not sufficient to account for the discrepancy. The assumed fuel efficiency of the generic Japanese gasoline vehicle must be superior to that of the Golf III, and the figures available to us confirm this assumption. The caption of Figure 1.3 notes the fuel consumption of the Golf III to be 8.1 L/100 km, which is equivalent to 12.3 km/L. Figure 1.5 lists fuel efficiencies of new Toyota vehicles, and only the Landcruiser has fuel efficiency lower than that of the Golf III. We suspect that the Golf III fuel efficiency and life-cycle estimates are based on an urban drive cycle, whereas the Toyota fuel efficiency and life-cycle estimates are based on the Japanese 10-15 drive cycle, which is a mixed urban and highway cycle
Looks like for my applications, I picked the right card!
The spread of FUD here is terrible. That latest attempt to portray an illusion of "too complex" is clear proof. An automatic transmission is actually more complicated than the power-split-device. But in the real-world, the average joe doesn't care anyway. Only those fighting against "full" hybrids do.
JOHN
The average joe does care about the >$11000 cost to replace the PSD.
I suspect because other than the Insight, it is the only easily recognizable hybrid.
They get great mileage,
But not great enough to make up for the initial cost difference.
tax breaks,
Again, not necessary if you didn't pay too much for your vehicle to begin with.
HOV access with single occupants,
How many states actually HAVE "HOV" lanes? We don't have them in Illinois.
wonderful warranty ,
For a lot less money than the cost difference between hybrid and non-hybrid Civic, I got a 6 year, 120,000 mile Hondacare warranty, thanks.
Toyota reliability
Which may be comparable to, and certainly not better than the reliability that I can expect from my Honda Civic.
I guess we'll have to give it a few more years before the naysayers walk away and bury their heads in the sand.
or before you realize that they don't represent a good financial option
They'll finally realize how unfounded their doubts really are.
I was thinking the same thing about the poor hybrid owner who after putting 150,000 miles on his car has finally broken even on the cost of it, then has to pay several thousand dollars to replace the battery pack and has to start all over with the "breaking even" process. It's not about hate, jealousy, or anythig other than common sense when it comes to practical value. I don't hate hybrids or the people who drive them (or anyone else, for that matter). What I can't accept is the notion that some hybrid drivers have that they got a better deal or will somehow be saving money by driving a hybrid vehicle. It simply isn't true. If you want to save the planet in your hybrid, I commend you for making the effort, but please don't present the hybrid vehicles as a way to save money because it's just not true.
Warner
Smart entry
Smart exit
(look ma no key!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Stability control- Not even available in the 06 HCH (why??)
Side curtains
HIDs
Bluetooth
NAV
Hatch versatility...
Larger rear legroom than an E class Mercedes!!!
Easily gets 50 MPG
What premium did I pay for all that good stuff????
Toyota Prius... gotta love it!!!
P.S. If someone knows where I can get a low emissions vehicle with all the above equipment and 50MPG highway PLEASE let me know. It has to be 23.5k or less thanks!!!
I think I posted this a couple of days ago:
Look, we can all (and most have) turn(ed) blue in the face arguing about this "hybrid premium" thing. I'm so, so very beyond TIRED of it.
The facts are that it varies "car deal by car deal." Me personally, I paid $1524 more for my hybrid than the next lowest available Civic I would buy, the EX. My "premium" will be made up in gas savings in less than 3 years.
For anyone who buys a hybrid and waits 14 years to recoup the costs, more power to you.
But that's not my case. I will regain all my "hybrid premium" within 3 years of purchase date.
1980 Chevy Monte Carlo bought new, owned 13 years with 182,000 miles on it. Traded for a
1993 Ford Explorer still have it with 171.000 miles. May get rid of it in 2006 or 2007 for a diesel passenger car.
1994 Ford Ranger still have it with 109,000 miles. When ford puts a diesel in the Ranger I’ll get another. If it dies before then, I’ll get a Toyota, maybe.
When I was kid, our family car was a 1948 Chevy coupe until my dad bought a new 1960 Chevy Impala, so keeping a car for many years kind of runs in the family.
I'm curious....what price did you pay for your Hybrid, and what price did you use to compare it to the EX?
Warner
That is more than the cost of a new one would have been at the time.
How long will the spreading of this FUD continue?
A single instance of an undocumented case with the earliest Classic model design isn't even remotely close to what new owners can expect now. Just ask how much the labor was on that bill. There were no full system replacements available from wrecks back then (a much cheaper solution), so naturally a rebuild would consume a ton of time.
It's all FUD. The new design employs an aggressive protection system anyway, something that didn't even exist previously.
JOHN
Hybrid had the one big advantage: 50+ MPG
FOR 23.5 grand (net of the generous fat tax credit) I can drive a high tech, low emissions vehicle with:
Smart entry
Smart exit
(look ma no key!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Stability control- Not even available in the 06 HCH (why??)
Side curtains
HIDs
Bluetooth
NAV
Hatch versatility...
Larger rear legroom than an E class Mercedes!!!
Easily gets 50 MPG
What premium did I pay for all that good stuff????
Toyota Prius... gotta love it!!!
P.S. If someone knows where I can get a low emissions vehicle with all the above equipment and 50MPG highway PLEASE let me know. It has to be 23.5k or less thanks!!!
Truth be told, Hybrids aren't for me. (I know you're shocked to hear this). More truth to be told, they WOULD be for me if they made more sense to me. I have nothing against the technology at all. I think it's really cool.
As to the Toyota warranty, it doesn't cost extra to get the generous 150,000 mile ten year warranty.
And what exactly does this "150,000 mile" warranty cover? Certainly NOT what the Hondacare warranty covers, I'm sure of that.
I guess you have no faith in Honda, otherwise you would not have purchased the extended warranty.
No, I figured for the $800 it cost me, I don't have to worry about anything major breaking. I guess you don't have much confidence in your driving ability since you probably have full-coverage auto insurance on your vehicle, right?
So....for 23.5 grand (net of the generous fat tax credit) I can drive a high tech, low emissions vehicle with:
Smart entry
Smart exit
Stability control
Side curtains
HIDs
Bluetooth
NAV
Hatch versatility...
Larger rear legroom than an E class Mercedes!!!
Easily gets 50 MPG
I'm curious to know how much allowance you gave for the "fat tax credit" since the IRS hasn't even announced what that will be or how it will work yet? Also, you got all of those features that you mentioned in your list for $23,500??? I don't know what "smart entry and exit" are, but I have the remote lock/unlock on my Civic key, which seems more than adequate to me.
If I were to be forced to buy a Hybrid vehicle today, it would most definitely BE the Prius. I don't dislike the vehicle at all.....I think I may be a bit misunderstood when I say negative things about something that people are a little sensitive about, but I DO like the Prius best of all the hybrid vehicles.
Warner