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The range is a useful metric, unless YOU are guaranteeing everyone for example who drives a Prius will get what you get 49.1 mpg. So you wonder why a population of Prius owners are upset with the EPA listings and what THEY ACTUALLY GET?? No, you probably don't wonder at all, Perpetual Denial has a mantra for that: DENY IT!?
The real questions: what misconceptions are YOU trying to spread??
Give me your Prius and I can drive it anyway you care to mention and I can report my results. I am reporting the results of the TDI. It is really up to you whether you believe it or not or even can match or exceed or do far worse.
When I go with the flow of traffic, just like everyone else, 50/51 is a low normal on the 2003 Jetta TDI on #2 D.
When you say heat, I am reading that "HEATER"? if so, I am told the 2006 has a "fan" or heater assist. The upshot is it approaches the gasser in up to temp heat. The 2005's on back, are much slower "up to temp", i.e., takes FAR longer to come to temp.
It also appears to me you do see and understand the contrasts and trade offs.
Being as how we are on the hybrid vs diesel topic, have you considered the hybrids?
Duh! But that has absolutely nothing to do with your specific LIFETIME value. And I notice that not only didn't you provide a MPG answer, you didn't even explain how the range is determined nor did you provide any context (climate, speed, diesel type, transmission, etc.)
So once again, for those 69,000 miles... HOW MANY GALLONS OF DIESEL DID YOU USE? Please answer the question this time, rather than going on with the "denial" campaign.
> When I go with the flow of traffic, just like everyone else, 50/51 is a low normal on the 2003 Jetta TDI on #2 D.
Without context, that doesn't mean squat. I averaged 55 MPG all throughout the month of June this year. That certainly isn't what I'm getting in December though... hence the value of LIFETIME, since it includes all influencing factors (like seasonal effects).
JOHN
Duh!"...
Glad you woke up!
If I told you the lifetime average , you'd just deny it or vilifiy it; just as you have denied the stated range. So I am ok with you squating in hybrid fantasy land.
..."Without context, that doesn't mean squat."...
I was using your context; just put in my figures, so you shouldn't be shocked eh? Or did you really mean to say what YOU say "doesn't mean squat"?
I gave you the information that is available. Do you have any credible information to add. I think the links given by winter2 shed a little more light onto the good and bad with both the Prius and the VW TDI. They both pass the same EURO4 standard. While the Corolla is only up to EURO III. The Prius could do a little better on the deadly Carbon monoxide.
And again you skirt any question that would put the hybrid in a negative light. Where are your answers to questions about the hybrids and Prius in particular? I imagine it will take some time. All questions that people thinking about buying a hybrid would like to know.
Pretending that ethanol doesn't exist is an obvious omission
I consider the people pushing Ethanol in the same league with the oil companies. It is all a scam. We have gone into detail on the fallacy of ethanol as a replacement for fossil fuel. You refuse to accept the Truth. It is not a good replacement. So why would I mention it in the same context as a fuel that has at least a small chance to be of use. Whether you realize it the whole country is now under the 10% ethanol mandate. Transporting the stuff to the coasts is one of the reasons our gas prices have gone up.
Just one other thing. How much of the Amazon basin do you think should be put into sugar cane to provide Ethanol for cars? How much pollution do you suppose is put into the air when they burn those cane fields prior to harvest?
Gov. Gray Davis has ordered that MTBE - the only oxygenate available besides ethanol - be phased out by 2003 because it pollutes ground water. State officials argue that California can meet federal air-quality goals with non-oxygenated, reformulated gasoline.
The EPA's oxygenate requirement is "a straitjacket mandate that will drive up gas prices while increasing air pollution," Davis said in a statement. "The potential for harm to Californians, both economically and environmentally, leaves me no choice but to fight back with guns blazing."
California produces 5 million to 7 million gallons of ethanol a year, a far cry from the estimated 600 million to 900 million gallons it would need to comply with the rules. Officials say the ethanol requirements would make the state dependent on the Midwest, which grows the corn used to make most ethanol.
http://speakout.com/activism/apstories/10064-1.html
Thank you for confirming exactly want I've been pursuing all along. I stated that diesel supporters would just settle for status quo, and that is precisely what you did by not bothering to answer the question.
So much for allowing people to make a decision on their own.
JOHN
As a contrast, my Honda Civic gets a range of 36-41.(39 mpg. So if you get 49.3, then yes, I leave it to folks to decide if 8.3 to 11 mpg is worth 12,500 dollars more over whatever cycle they tend to run their automobiles. In my case the calculations just did not pencil. 49.3/39 mpg/100,000 miles =2029 gal/2564 gal=535 gal saved@ 2.05= $1,097. saved (by spending 12,500 more).
So let me put in the diesel, 100,000/50 mpg= 2000 gals/2029 gal. For penciling purposes that is pretty much break even agains the Prius fuel wise. Ok lets put in 2.55-2.05-.50 cents. that is 5100-4160=$940 diesel/UR price difference. So given 25,000/18,000 =$7,000. Again that is spending $940 more in fuel difference to save 7000? So again, FOR ME; Prius vs TDI, the Prius did not pencil out/in.
The market is big enough for just about any stripe.
Let me lay out some facts:
Initial cost $24,900 cash
Miles driven since June 680.
Cost for gas to date $104
Trips to Home Depot, Lowes, Nursery, Dump etc 113 each.
Cost to rent a truck for each time I needed a truck @$35 each, total projected cost $3955.
Money lost in interest if 25 grand left in bank about $350.
Insurance for 6 months $520.
Depreciation:
This is where it gets real good. According to Edmunds TMV as of today here in San Diego my truck has a trade-in value of $27,694 as equipped. Private sale value $29,188. A dealer would ask $32,900 as a certified vehicle.
It looks like I am about $5704 ahead of where I started the summer. Sure glad I didn't rent as some here seem to think is smart. Oh and I held out on XM till they offered me a year of satellite for $77, just last week. Love that hybrid truck, better than money in the bank. I'll update you again when a year is up. And I thought larsb did real well with his HCH.
I saw a Prius on the lot when I took my guest drive at the Toyota dealer. Pretty cool looking vehicle. I may have to test one of those too. I have an appt to drive a Passat TDI this Monday. I located a dealer that had one. We'll see.
Now to question about the GMC Sierra Hybrid. The dealer only had the hybrid left during the wild sale prices just before the fourth of July. I bought on the 28th of June. End of month good time to buy a vehicle. With all the incentives offered at the time it dropped the price from an MSRP of $33,725 to the $24,900 I offered him before TTL. It has the 5.3L engine and towing package I wanted. I would not have opted for the Onstar and XM if it had not been in the truck. So it was not something they could really use to sell me. Resale is really unimportant as I have no desire to sell the truck. I did find the Edmund's TMV enjoyable. Most vehicles you lose your shorts when you drive off the lot. But then I cannot remember paying above invoice for any vehicle.
Borrowing from the neighbors, hmmmmm. We have one each Mazda 626 that is our loaner car to friends and relatives. I don't loan my truck, tractor, Lexus, Passat, or motor home. And I don't ask to borrow them from others. I got burnt many years ago borrowing an old beater that the transmission fell apart while I had it. My responsibility to rebuild it. No you can borrow from the neighbors not me.
I will let everyone here know about my test drive (TDI Passat) this Monday. I look forward to it.
My utility trailer that is 5X8 FT has a gross weight of 5000 lbs. I have overloaded it with wet sand a time or two.
Just a bit more info. I looked a long time for a decent used truck. They were either worn out or so high priced I bought a new one. Resale on trucks is the reason I have owned so many. They hold their value better than anything but a Porsche. Plus I like driving a PU better than anything else, overall. The Passat is fun to drive though a bit close to the ground for my tastes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If the Prius has high CO2 emissions, it's doing a damn fine job of burning gasoline cleanly. The trees will love it.
The have the first gen Insight. They claim 52-55MPG.
Have about 78,000 miles, and no problems(yet).
The second person, an instructor at my local college(mid-50's) has a Prius. It is about 2 years old.
She likes it, and says she avg 42MPG.
Do not know the mileage.
Sounds like it has no issues, yet.
I guess 42 MPG is good for a car around midsize, but then I read about midsize cars with theV6 getting 30-32MPG now, and the 4 cylinder versions 34-35MPG?
No special battery required, either.
Read Fusion V6 gets 29, Sonata 30, and G6 -32?
Even read the new Impala, where the V8 shuts down some cylinders, can get up to 28MPG!
Then you have cars that are compact, getting 40 MPG, like the new 140HP Civic.
I don't know.
If the batteries last say 200,000 miles,a nd you could get a Prius for 22K, I could perhaps live with that, and the 42 MPG(the thing can haul large items, better than a sedan or smaller hatch).
This "we do not know how long they last" and could cost 3,500-5,000 to replace the batteries alone... no, it is not worth it.
They get them to say 250,000 miles.... to last before replacement of batteries(and I can trade it in before I pay 5K for batteries, or lower replacement prices to say 1,000 tops), then i might be interested.
The Prius DOES NOT have high CO2 emissions. You are confusing carbon Dioxide, which we all exhale, with carbon Monoxide.
CO2=Carbon Dioxide the reason for the Kyoto treaty
CO=Carbon Monoxide a colorless, odorless, tasteless, toxic gas that has the molecular formula CO. The molecule consists of a carbon atom that is triply bonded to an oxygen atom.
Carbon Monoxide is produced by the incomplete combustion of the fossil fuels - gas, oil, coal and wood used in boilers, engines, oil burners, gas fires, water heaters, solid fuel appliances and open fires.
And yes the Prius puts this gas out in smaller amounts than most gasoline cars but more than a modern diesel car.
#1 The diesel tractor. That should be obvious nothing gas powered compares to diesel when it comes to torque needed to get a job done.
#2 Small self contained RV: Are there any gas or gas/hybrid RV's available that are in the 8000 lb Class "B" that get 22-25 MPG?
#3 Midsized station wagon: Can you name a midsize gas or gas/hybrid wagon equal in size to the Passat that will get 35-40 MPG cruising 75 MPH on the highway. Of the 3 the wagon is the only one possible to replace. The only thing close is the Focus Wagon. I don't think they are in the same league. Not my cup of tea.
The industry average after five years is 35% of new value, Kelley says. Best: 53% of original value after five years, shared by Mini Cooper, Toyota Prius and Honda Accord hybrid, according to Kelley.
The unexpected can change depreciation. For instance, 2004 and 2005 Volkswagen models with fuel-efficient diesel engines have appreciated, not depreciated, the past year as gasoline prices climbed, DeBacker says.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-12-22-resale-usat_x.htm
I think your above post really highlights my past post: "buyer beware".
One's long term luck can be aided by prior research BEFORE one buys. I thought I had a bit of luck with a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser with 250,000 miles sold at the 14th year with 44% of new value (-3.125% per year.) But so far it has been eclipsed by APPRECIATION of the 2003 VW Jetta TDI.
This idea is obviously not new, but I come from the experience of lead acid batteries lasting 10 years: thus the comparison. Increasingly, a lot of folks experience batteries lasting 4 or less years. Almost everyone in the battery replacement business I have talked with, say a battery lasts a max of 4-6 years. Since the technology has been off the shelf for a long time, I think you can rack up this "low life" to the bean counters, as there is really nothing technologically substantively different between one that lasts 10 years and say 2.7 years .
Doesn't mean I am going to sell it!!
Happy New Year Everyone!!!
Hope everyone got what they wanted for Christmas!!
http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/default22.asp?page=mb&nav=rec&choice=brochure
That is exactly right. The only way to know the value of any vehicle is to sell it. A vehicle is only worth what you can get someone else to give you for it. All the Blue Books give you is an estimate. Asking price is not the selling price. Most people think their car is worth more than it will actually sell for. Car dealers make their living by buying low and selling high.
The best way to get the most out of your car buying dollar is to save your money and buy with cash, close to invoice and keep it forever.
I would also agree. The nexus here: would you buy a USED hybrid/gasser using the same parameters?
There aren't too many 3 yr old hybrids I'd be interested in. I was not able to take the TDI test drive, but will be doing so next week. I also am going to look at the new Honda Civic hybrid and the Toyota Prius. This purchase will be my commuter car. I already built the Jetta TDI on the VW website. Adding those options can make the car a little on the high side. The test drives will be the deciding factor. I've read some wonderful reviews on all three vehicles. One mitigating factor is the price differential between gas and diesel. It is now $0.55 more in my area for diesel over unleaded regular. I will have to take that into consideration too. Lots of decisions!
Wait till Sunday if you buy a hybrid. Get that tax credit.
link title
In so far as the HID lamps. You might want to consider the cost of replacement lamps. With the advent of DRL's. it might make sense to forgo them altogether.
I have been used to those 9000 series halogen lamps pretty much lasting the life of the vehicles. (11 year old TLC still has the originals 139,000 miles) But indeed with DRL's, the VW Jetta needed a right passenger headlamp replaced at app 30k miles and 1.5 years. So you are talking bigger bucks and probably even more frequent replacement than say even my history on the Jetta.
Not only that.. most HIDs have proven very reliable.. at least over the last 5-6 years...
regards,
kyfdx
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