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Comments
Warner
quote MSN review of E320 CDI -Tests by Mercedes show the car is the quietest diesel the company has ever offered in the U.S., with sounds at idle a mere 44 decibels compared with 42 decibels for the comparable gasoline-powered E-Class sedan. At full throttle, the diesel model actually is slightly quieter than the gasoline model, with noise measured at 72 decibels vs. 76 decibels from the gasoline engine. -end
Mercedes diesel is 4 decibels QUIETER than gasoline engine at full throttle and 2 decibel louder at idle.
The facts do not support your opinion at all.
Have you heard a new Mercedes E3230 CDI. It is very quiet, and faster than the gas version. 0-60 MPH in about 6.5 seconds. The reason the old design MB 300D was so noisy is technology. It was 1960s or earlier design. You know what? They are still on the road and running good. In CA that only has cleaner diesel and ULSD available you do not see them smoking.
When the garbage trucks, 18 wheelers and buses start using ULSD this year the difference will be dramatic. According to the EPA the buses tested with PM filters and ULSD were cleaner overall than the buses using CNG. There are more than a few diesel cars waiting in the wings that will get the PZEV rating once ULSD is the standard. Then most of the unleaded gas cars will have to play catch up. Which they will have a heck of a time doing when it comes to MPG. Even the hybrids when matched against diesel lose the mileage race overall city and highway.
Prius is comfortable, a festival of technology and unquestionably cleaner-burning than the VW can be today with only high-sulfur diesel fuel available. But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius, and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas.
Jetta lived up to its one-tank billing. Prius did not.
Prius vs Jetta
The German magazine Auto Bild has conducted a 5,200 km test across the USA comparing the fuel consumption of diesel and hybrid off-roaders.The Mercedes ML 320 CDI was compared with the Lexus RX 400h and, over the course of the run, the Mercedes was 11% more fuel efficient at 31.0 mpg compared to 27.7 mpg for the Lexus.
Mileage contest 2 for diesel 0 for hybrid.
The loud thumping coming out of many cars. I think it is supposed to be musical. I got news for them it is in NO way music to my ears. I would rather sit next to an 18 wheeler.
Not sure why you would bring up Jetta v Prius. We all know the Prius is the mileage champ. I guess you haven't read car and driver or popular mechanics lately. Would you like me to post links?
Diesel is the realistic future. Let's hope the EPA doesn't eliminate this option...these vehicles are capable of significant mileage increases...with no battery pack to dispose of. :P
Injection pressures in the CRD are 1600 Bar or about 23K psi. Also, there are multiple pulses of fuel injected prior to the main injection pulse of fuel. In my old Isuzu the injection pressure was 3750 psi and a single pulse of fuel.
The older Mercedes' diesel engines are based on the older technology as someone has mentioned. With the higher pressure, there is better fuel atomization for more power and a more complete burn. Once USLD is in place, the funky odor will be gone as well as most of the particulate/smoke. Sulfur is the culprit here. Sulfur is also a problem in gassers as it poisons certain catalysts thus reducing their efficiency over time.
We don't all know that nor do we all believe that. If you have a legitimate comparison between the two feel free to post it.. A comparison over a 12 mile route, hardly checks the overall capability of either the Prius or the Jetta TDI. My posted test was real world travel on a 500 mile route. So if C&D or PM did real world comparisons get them out here to give us something to debate.
One other comment. Prius maybe, in your view, the mileage champ, but uses a one way fuel. I do not care how clean it is, it still uses a one way fuel. E10 has it's own issues too. In several respects, diesels are far cleaner than gassers namely less CO2, no unburned HC, and practically no CO and this without a catalytic converter. With USLD and particulate filter, soot will become a non-issue. The only nut left to crack is NOx and that will come soon and at a reasonable price.
I've got news for you. That is the new diesel engine. Ever hear one from the late 80's?
If you insist on discussing the 80's, it is only fair to compare the late 80's diesels to late 80's hybrids. :surprise:
This has ALL been covered before, please read the old posts, there is no constructive purpose, not even entertainment, to rehash these old misconceptions.
My take is "our" regulators made a HUGE mistake when they did not mandate better fuel standards at the time they mandated the switch from LEADED regular to UN leaded regular. in the 1970's.
In fact, the advances in emissions control devices for diesels have been much shorter and FASTER than for gassers.
Just read the writeup in consumer reports and they rated the civic higher than the jetta gas/diesel. The diesel took 12.2 seconds to hit 60. I think that is a bit on the slow side. The Prius ranges from 9.8 - 10.2 in most magazines I've read. The Civic was slow too but they liked it better. The won't even recommend the Jetta due to "subpar reliability".
This has already been covered and proven wrong.
Diesel cost vs. Gasoline cost
Take the UK for example, there are no tax breaks for diesel (Tax breaks, HOV lanes, what else is required to subsidize hybrids in the US to get people to buy them!!) vehicles, diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline, and diesels now have greater than 50% of the market.
Wrong! Honda and Toyota have both announced that they will be introducing diesels in US.
Both Honda and Toyota have tested diesel engines that meet EPA emissions requirements for 2007.
Both Honda and Toyota sell more diesels worldwide than they do hybrids. And that is exluding trucks!
CRD is built in Italy (the engine) from what I read. DC is a German company so let's stop applauding and waving the American flag. I also mentioned passenger car, not SUV.
Working in R&D helps.....
Secondly, you "may" be new, however, falconone and others have already stated the same opinions.
Third, outdated opinions of diesels or hybrids, and perpetuating incorrect information will either be ignored or responded to.
As for no "American" company producing a domestic diesel to place in a "Passenger" car, the answer is really simple. GM and Ford have European subsidiaries who have been manufacturing diesels for years successfully. So why should they re-invent the wheel?
As I understand it DC is both German and American and not just one or the other.
Your comment about the engine being Italian goes back to my first statement, namely the need not to re-invent the wheel. DC is a 49% shareholder in V.M. Motori who has been building automotive diesels since 1947. The Koreans, especially Hyundai build diesels that are licensed from the V.M. Motori company. Until recently, Honda was building diesels licensed from someone else.
Yes, you are entitled to express your opinion as you see fit, but anyone in this forum is allowed to question or challenge your opinions or my opinions as they see fit.
1. No unburned hydrocarbon emissions.
2. Significantly less to no carbon monoxide emissions.
3. In the vast majority of cases, lower carbon dioxide emissions for equivalent sized engines.
Only two places where diesel gets dinged is on PM and NOx. PM will soon be a non-issue with ULSD and PM filters. NOx is a little harder to fix, but the solution for this problem is not to far off.
Gassers also use high sulfur fuel, except in CA and there are more of you. That will change later this year.
The higher price of diesel is mostly a seasonal thing as #2 heating oil and diesel fuel are one in the same. Will there be an additional cost for ULSD? Yes. Will there be an additional cost for Low sulfur gasoline? Yes and it will be about the same as diesel. I have read that the removal of sulfur will add about 4 - 7 cents per gallon.
As to driving a car that uses diesel, it is cheaper than using gasoline. Sounds crazy. I drive a Jeep Liberty CRD. On the highway I get a touch over 30 mpg at 62 mph. The gasoline equivalent with the V-6 gets 17 mpg at similar speed. That is why I drive a diesel. The engine is an $845 option in the Liberty, and a little over $200 in the VW. Add to that that I can use B20 makes it really worth my while.
4-7 cents sounds about right. Just to reiterate, I have nothing against diesel engines, I just am annoyed that in this day and age it takes so long to have rules in place which should have been in place years ago. If that were the case, the we would not have a need for hybrids. Not sure how long diesel fuel has been clean in Europe, but our govt has some really stupid people running it. So..yes I do not like diesel clatter, but NO I have nothing against clean diesels. Enjoy your CRD!!
I agree with you about poor management in our government. I agree that rules for USLD should have been in place years ago, but that is politics for you. Stupidity 101.
As for hybrids, the concept is good but not in its present form. They still use a non-renewable fuel that still contributes to loading the atmosphere with carbon dioxide from the past. My concept of a hybrid is similar to that of a locomotive. A diesel engine driving a generator that drives electric motors. This eliminates the need for a transmission or PSD. A capacitor would be used to give a little kick when needed, no battery pack. Also, capacitors can be recharged many more cycles than the batteries as found in present day hybrids.
As for the clatter, comes with the territory. Eventually, diesels will be quieter, but they are what they are.
Been a good discussion with you.
The diesel clatter is really the sound of 25 to 1 compression ratio. The Jetta TDI is around 19-1 and I am told the iCTDI Honda is more like 16/17 to 1. This brings down the so called clatter.
Don't forget that we allowed the EU to help us by dumping their excess refined gasoline...are real 1-2 punch.
Boilermaker2
The addition of a second firewall, as found in my 1981 Isuzu car was a big help in noise reduction.
The cetane of the fuel is another factor in amount of noise that comes from the diesel. The higher the cetane, the faster the burn, the quieter the engine is. Also, higher cetane yields lower emissions.
E320 CDI is expected to be offered in all 50 states starting Fall of 2006. Additional diesel cars and SUVS from Mercedes are expected to follow as are additional Chrysler diesels.
As expected and predicted, the diesels will begin to arrive in Fall of 2006 with the widespread availability of ULSD.
PR for Bluetec and E320 CDI
I always thought it disengenuous for slamming BUSH for not complying/concurring with the Kyoto signers, when the majority of Kyoto signers have oem's manufacturing diesel products; such as passenger vehicles fleets upwards of 45% and GROWING!!!
They also have mainstream nuclear power which has been almost totally poo poohed in the USA, but that is another issue.
More diesels, I love it. Has anyone heard if a good solution for the NOx problem has been found?
So I think with the advent of alternative fuels; such as diesel, natural gas, (again even more of a problem with home fuel not being taxed correctly) and 100% ethanol. A hybrid priced say 7500 dollars more than a diesel is going to have rough sledding. Of course it is known that diesel and even ethanol are much cheaper to refine.
Interesting Study about "why people buy hybrids."
Even if diesel costs a few cents more than gas, it is still cheaper to run over the long term if you place a diesel engine in an equivalent vehicle. At 30 mpg on the highway, it costs me 8.7 cents/mile to drive my Jeep Liberty CRD and that is at 2.609/gallon. In V-6 version gets 17 mpg @241.9 per gallon is 14.2 cents/mile. Diesel would have to be over$4.00/gallon to cost as much per mile as the V-6 gasser, if gas prices remained unchanged.
But this is not going to happen. They will both climb and even though gas might remain a little cheaper, diesel will still be cheaper to run over the long term.
"Both V8 comply with stringent US LEV II emission standards"
That's pathetic!
Even gassers using dirty gas can do much better than that.
All of the hybrids now deliver significantly cleaner emissions, the SULEV II rating... which is 2 categories above LEV.
No wonder the EPA standards are rarely mentioned by diesel supporters. With values that low, it makes sense to avoid talking about them.
JOHN