Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So you need to explain how the DRL's are implemented with an on board HID system.

    The reason why I bring it up is the aftermarket has HID's for the VW line. I actually looked at it and decided to stay with the 9006/9005 halogen lamps, cost etc being one reason. Another is even at my age, I have excellent night vision. But I dont drive a lot at night and when I do it is perfectly fine (without HID's) Also while I have of course noticed HID lamps are brighter, I have read in a lot of places where it makes people upset, for it tends to blind, if you are an oncoming driver.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 267,338
    (HID)(DRL)--------(DRL)(HID)

    This is the way my car looks.. (granted, I'm not much of an artist)

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Are the HID lights the blue ones that blind oncoming traffic? If so I will be first to sign a petition outlawing them. They are horrible to face oncoming.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Got it. Picture worth a 1,000 words? :)
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 267,338
    You aren't supposed to stare at the headlights.. ;)

    Really, they draw your attention... once the majority of cars have them, you won't stare at them.. Sort of like the center brake light... Who notices them any more?

    It is the cheap HIDs that really blind you... A well-aligned set rarely will hit the oncoming driver in the eyes... Most of them are self-leveling now..

    BMW xenons are like driving in daylight, compared to halogens... I love them.. (alas, I get to drive the Honda, mostly)

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Actually thinking on it, the only thing I have wanted for the last 30 years is the headlamps on gimbaled gearing head lamps pointing in the direction you are going not on the cliff you are trying to avoid) . They are coming out with it (recently?) on a few high end cars. I am inclined to think that if it is much extra cost, that it is not worth (me) getting.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    OK, I'll give them a while before I start my petition. I think the ones that really hit me were on a little Honda rocket some kid was driving. Probably glued them on with super glue.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 267,338
    Adaptive xenons? We have them on our new car.. the option price is only $100 more than the non-adaptive ones on the last car.. I don't notice a lot of difference..

    I can't think of anything negative about them, though.. it is kind of a wow feature, more than anything else...

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 267,338
    Those might not have even been HIDs... Probably just an aftermarket "blue" driving light.. designed to mimic the real thing....

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Given the topic I dont want to go to far afield but how much to replace the HID lamps when they burn out? $5.82 for two on the 9005/9006's.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 267,338
    No clue.. I'm not sure I want to find out...

    Since this car is a lease.. I won't have to.. ;)

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >You aren't supposed to stare at the headlights..

    They blind you whether you look at them or not. I noticed them being irritatingly bright even in dreary 10 am driving on interstate. The Acuras have something about their brightness that they shine into oncoming eyes even on the other side of a median!!! They seem to put the oncoming driver in extra bright zone then low zone as the car bounced and changed angle.)

    Certain BMWs can do it but don't seem to as much. A Lincoln had lights that were really bright and they may have been on high beam (oblivious driver?).

    I'll sign the petition if it addresses silly driving light useage with low beams or fog lamps as they are called now.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fblackfblack Member Posts: 26
    Definitely wait until next week to buy a Prius (assuming that is your choice). I have had mine for two years and it has been trouble free. I live in a semi-rural area and don't encounter too many lights. If I go the speed limit (65), I always get 48-51 which I consider wonderful. I got the full tilt model with all the bells and whistles. I have a great dealer too (in Dover).
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Looking into the details of the upcoming low-sulfur mandate for diesel (requiring a maximum of only 15ppm), you'll find this very disturbing compliance option: "up to 20 percent of highway diesel fuel produced may continue to meet the current 500ppm sulfur limit through May 2010". That's one heck of a shortcoming of the mandate not a single supporter has ever mentioned. The resulting pollution could add up to an enormous amount. In other words, diesel will basically still be much dirtier than gas overall for many years still.

    As for biodiesel, which isn't actually clean since it increases the NOx emissions, has problems too. The recent mandate in Minnesota (which is the first in the nation) to require all diesel to be a 2 percent blend of biodiesel was suspended due to fuel lines & filters being clogged by it. A theory is the glycerin (a saturated fatty acid in the biodiesel) may be turning to a thick waxy substance in the cold temperatures much easier than anyone anticipated... which is pretty bad considering 2 percent is such a tiny amount. Another theory is poor quality from the refineries, delivering a substandard fuel. Whatever the case, the status of biodiesel is no where near as far along as ethanol (biogas)... which has been a mandated 10 percent blend in Minnesota year-round since back in the 90's.
  • donzi81donzi81 Member Posts: 59
    I am wondering if you added Lipitor to the tank if it would rectify the problem. :)

    I am considering the purchase of the new VW Jetta with the TDI engine. I've been doing my research and so far the reviews seem quite positive. I am impressed with comments regarding "build quality", "great handling" and excellent fuel economy with the diesel engine. Here is my question to the experts participating here. If I just pump #2 diesel into the car, will it perform adequately? Do I have to add anything to the tank? I am concerned because in Europe the fuel is cleaner? Have US destined Jettas been retrofitted to burn the different fuel available here? I am quite excited about having a fuel efficent vehicle that can cruise at 90 and get decent mileage!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    VWA does not recommend the use of additives. However,
    actually they are two and in sequential order.

    1 using todays fuel I use Primrose 405C this is a 3000 to one dilution rate cetane booster and lubricity and emulsification additive.

    2. Come the 2006 low sulfur fuel standard one really only needs the lubricity and emulsfication additive again Primrose makes its 402 product.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "up to 20 percent of highway diesel fuel produced may continue to meet the current 500ppm sulfur limit through May 2010"

    Maybe you would like to share your source for that quote. According to the EPA 90% of the ULSD will be online by June 1st, 2006 with the last 10% no later than October 15th. Here is my source updated November of this year.

    The goals of this rule are met with three limited revisions to the existing highway diesel program. First, we extend the ULSD implementation dates for terminals and retail outlets by 45 days. Terminals will have until September 1 (vs. July 15), 2006, and retailers will have until October 15 (vs. September 1), 2006, to complete their transitions to ULSD.

    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/diesel/420f05051.htm
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As for biodiesel

    If they mixed 2% biodiesel with #2 diesel, I would say it would gel at sub zero temps encountered in MN. Number 2 diesel will gel in sub zero temps all by itself. Being a MN land owner I can attest to their horrible legislative record. They are good at making laws without thinking them through.

    I don't know of anyone that is familiar with biodiesel recommending it should be used in very cold temperatures. Just as Ethanol should not be used in warm climates like CA. The only benefit of ethanol is lining the pockets of big farm corporations and subsequentally the politicians that shoved it down our throats. Same as the MTBE debacle.

    Maybe the Sierra Club will be successful shutting your ethanol plants down before there is more harm done to the environment.

    The two facilities named in the lawsuit are Ethanol 2000 of Bingham Lake, Minnesota, and New Energy Corp. of South Bend, Indiana.

    “By the EPA’s own admission, these two plants are only the tip of the iceberg,” said David Bookbinder, senior attorney with the Sierra Club. “There’s a clear pattern in this industry of systematic disregard for the law. These lawsuits should serve as a warning to the entire industry to clean up their act, and to the EPA to enforce the law.”

    The EPA’s findings, which are based on data from recent emissions tests, reveal that corn-based forms of ethanol production—which account for around 95 percent of all ethanol produced in the U.S.—are far more dangerous than had been suspected: the two plants that are the subject of the initial lawsuits were found to be releasing volatile organic compounds (VOCs) and other chemicals well above permitted levels.

    Indeed, Ethanol 2000 was exceeding its permitted level by nearly 10 times and was emitting acetaldehyde and formaldehyde. Both of these chemicals are classified by the EPA as probable human carcinogens, while VOCs contribute to the production of ozone, which causes serious respiratory problems, including asthma and lung diseases.

    Other ethanol facilities were found by the EPA to be emitting unlawful amounts of carbon monoxide, a poisonous gas that causes visual impairment, reduced work capacity, reduced manual dexterity, and a host of other human health problems.

    Despite this clear indication that many ethanol producers are breaking the law and putting human health and the environment at risk, Congress is shaping an energy bill that would provide $5 billion in subsidies for the industry. Lawmakers would also exempt ethanol producers from any liability when people become sick from drinking polluted water.

    “When ethanol producers violate the Clean Air Act and endanger human health, Congress should treat them like the corporate polluters they are, not give them yet more tax breaks,” continued Bookbinder. “Until these plants clean up their acts, they deserve fines, not hand-outs.”
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Whatever the case, the status of biodiesel is no where near as far along as ethanol (biogas)... which has been a mandated 10 percent blend in Minnesota year-round since back in the 90's.

    Unfortunately MN and other Midwest states have convinced an ignorant Congress that it is good for all of us. Read what the Audubon Society thinks of your beloved Ethanol.

    Drunk on Ethanol
    Our addiction to corn-derived alcohol is not only costing us a lot of money, it's also wiping out fish and wildlife habitat, and polluting our air, soil, and water.


    The question was: Who would spend 10 cents to 20 cents more per gallon for gasoline that reduces mileage, degrades your car, destroys fish and wildlife, increases air pollution, and makes the United States more dependent on foreign oil?

    With its 1990 amendments to the Clean Air Act, Congress tried a revolutionary strategy: regulating not just how gasoline was burned in motor vehicles but how it was made. The idea was to require the use of gasoline with at least 2 percent oxygen-containing chemicals (oxygenates) in areas where clean-air standards weren't being met. This way more carbon monoxide, toxic hydrocarbons, and smog-producing volatile organic compounds would get burned up.

    Senator Bob Dole (R-KS), Senator Tom Daschle (D-SD), and other politicians from the Corn Belt who had pushed this "reformulated-gasoline program" were ecstatic. The amendments created a new future for the corn-produced oxygenate ethanol (a.k.a. "white lightning" or grain alcohol), which hadn't found a decent market for anything save drinking despite $5 billion in federal subsidies. With the mandated use of "gasohol" (one part ethanol, nine parts gasoline), the moribund ethanol industry would spring heel-clicking from its wheelchair.

    Agribusiness would prosper. And America would get cleaner air and homegrown energy. It was going to be a win-win-win-win.

    Fourteen years later there are 78 ethanol plants in 19 states. More than half are being expanded, and scores of new ones will soon come online. Fully 10 percent of all corn grown in the United States goes into ethanol. And Senator Daschle, Representative Dennis Hastert (R-IL), and President George W. Bush have been trying to legislate a mandate requiring states to increase the amount of ethanol used in reformulated gasoline from about 3 billion gallons to 5 billion gallons by 2012.

    But the reformulated-gasoline program has turned out to be a colossal failure, and the ethanol industry has transmogrified into a sacrosanct, pork-swilling behemoth that gets bigger and hungrier with each feeding. Ethanol dirties the air more than it cleans it. Its production requires vast plantings of corn, which wipe out fish and wildlife by destroying habitat and polluting air, soil, and water. Of all crops grown in the United States, corn demands the most massive fixes of herbicides, insecticides, and chemical fertilizers, while creating the most soil erosion.


    http://magazine.audubon.org/incite/incite0408.html
  • fblackfblack Member Posts: 26
    I do not recall reading anything about clean diesel, but it will be refreshing if it comes to fruition. I don't see too many diesel passenger vehicles, but when I do I can easily tell from the exhaust odor. Will this new fuel you people are speaking about eliminate the black smoke and smell? On my Prius you can't even see or smell the exhaust which makes me happy for my fellow man.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    it is the sulfur you are seeing and smelling. And yes it is mandated for the whole USA this year. Companies like BP are already selling low sulfur diesel in many parts of the country. Many of the older diesel cars like the Mercedes & VW Rabbit diesels were not that clean burning. All the new diesel engines are much cleaner. With ULSD you should not see or smell any odor.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    image

    Sprinter drives 22 times around the world without repair. Klaus Schade drove his newspaper courier Sprinter 900,000 km without repairs in the 10 years he owned it. Only regular maintenance was necessary, of course. That's 559,234 miles, the equivalent of driving 22 times around the world. Since the introduction in 1995 more than one million Sprinters were sold while also receiving multiple "Transporter of the Year" awards.

    Mercedes also offers this in a diesel plugin hybrid.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    hydrogen. Had an interesting conversation with someone close to the hydrogen (as fuel)/hybrid project.
  • donzi81donzi81 Member Posts: 59
    I saw that photo you posted of that Mercedes van. I wonder why they use such small tires. It looks like the handling would be very poor other than on straightaways.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hydrogen does not sound too promising. Think I will stick with diesel till they come up with a decent alternative.

    Happy & healthy 2006
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I know mine are load range "E" 10 ply rated. It handles quite nicely on mountain roads. Not like my Passat by any stretch of the imagination. It is a utility vehicle. I have read that they handle very well on ice and snow with the stability control system Mercedes uses. I would be curious how many sets of brake pads, rotors and tires were used in 559K miles.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Speak of fuel guzzling!!?? ALL you could want I might add! Obviously as hydrogen becomes more "main stream"? there is the chance that the price per gal of hydrogen mght come down? :(:) I'd give it 30 years! :) However the unofficial official estimates are at 10/15 years. This makes 8 dollars current price per gal for petro in the UK look absolutely, posititvely: CHEAP.

    With current $2.55 diesel and $2.06 petro, (corner store prices) to get my two cars' cents per mile driven (50/37 mpg div by $2.55/$2.06= $.05/$.056), I would need 320 miles/286 miles per gal. Keep at the R/D. 22 mpg is a LONG way from 320/286 respectively. :(:)

    I did forget to ask if 16 dollars per gal included the inevitable TAXATION that comes with this. :( So I guess we may as well start now and carp about those fuel guzzling hydrogen cars that damage the environment! :)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Couple of errors in your biodiesel statement.

    1. In the making of biodiesel, the glycerin is stripped off of the oil it is being made from. It forms a separate layer and is not part of the fuel.

    2. Glycerin is not a fatty acid. It is an alcohol of sorts.

    3. The clogging comes from the fact that biodiesel is a very good solvent. If you have been using poor quality diesel fuel, it will loosen any junk in the fuel system and this in turn will clog the filter. Unfortunately, domestic diesel fuel borders on trash.

    4. B2 will not gel, if the diesel fuel (other 98%)has been treated properly.

    5. Adding E10 to a gasser that has never used E10 can cause similar filter clogging. I am not talking about a new car, but one that is several years old.

    6. E10 contributes to pollution in it's own right. Here is an article. link title

    7. Methanol is not so pretty either. Refer to the same article.
  • donzi81donzi81 Member Posts: 59
    Looks like we're going to have another round of price gouging too. Oil is now trading at 63.50. Let's see how soon we'll see that increase at the pump!
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The price rise has already started here in MD. Gas is up about 14 cents over the past ten days. Diesel is up too, but to a lesser degree.

    In a news item on the radio they are talking about gas being in excess of $2.50/gallon. Have not heard anything about diesel.

    Price of fuel will go up as the demand for low-sulfur petroleum increases. Gas will be getting a significant reduction in sulfur while diesel will go to ULSD. That will add to the price.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Also keep in mind the regulators really want the market to go to (from unleaded regular) natural gas (aka LNG, propane, etc. )as a vehicle fuel source. I really have not heard a per gal price (yes I buy propane at gas stations etc.) One of the logistical problems, issues, etc, things they are having a great deal of issues with is the concept of fueling at home for those that get natural gas to their premises. Tax structure, room for tax bypass, safety etc etc. I would predict we would see a meteoric rise in natural gas explosions across safety areas where we have NEVER seen them before.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 267,338
    I was getting gas at a Shell station that I don't normally go to (yesterday)..

    Regular unleaded was $2.24... and.. diesel was only $2.36.. This is the first time that I've seen the spread under $0.40/gallon for a long time... and, I'm not sure if it was just this station, or if it is a trend...

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sounds like they are getting the refineries back on line that went down during Rita. Also the diesel producers are converting to ULSD for the June mandate. I am sure that hurt the supply chain some. I don't look for diesel to drop below unleaded regular. It should be very close when all is up and running.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    As I understand it, low sulfur will also impact on gasolene too, so expect that price to go up. There will be a big demand for low sulfur crude oil so I see and have heard that gasolene prices will probably exceed $2.50/gallon by summer. Cannot say anything about diesel as I have not heard.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,754
    is low-sulfur really on the crude oil side? Are you sure? This doesn't seem to add up to me. I mean, if its the crude that is low-sulfur, than wouldn't that mean gas has been high-sulfur up till now? Or is that made low-sulfur in the processing, which should mean it makes no difference what happens with diesel since it will not change the gas processing. OR, again, if true, and low-sulfur crude has always been used to begin with in making gas, why wasn't it always used for diesel?

    I don't think I'm being clear, so let me sum up with choices:
    A. 2 types of crude (low-sulfur and high-sulfur). low is used for gas and high for diesel.
    B. only high-sulfur crude in the past. Gasoline is made low-sulfur during processing, while diesel has not been.
    C. only low-sulfur crude and sulfur was added in the processing of diesel.

    Any of the 3 choices above don't seem to jive with your statement that it will impact the price of gas (unless, of course, the only reason it impacts gas is because the oil companies are spreading out the cost of implementing the new diesel, which has nothing to do with the demand for crude, as you suggested).

    So what am I missing?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe there is a misconception. I am only familiar with Alaskan crude oil. The level of sulfur in crude does vary. That has little to do with the finished product other than higher expense to refine. The removal of sulfur has been ongoing. I believe the mandate for gasoline was the 1st of 2006 to get sulfur to less than 20 PPM. Diesel will have to be at less than 15 PPM by October with most coming online June 1st 2006. CA mandated low sulfur gasoline several years ago. That is why it is easier to get a SULEV rating in CA. Now if the oil companies have adhered to the EPA mandate all states should be receiving low sulfur gasoline. I would not look for a big jump in price as a result of the added refining. That has been an ongoing process for several years.

    Crude oil coming out of the ground has sulfur as a component. Crude can vary from light enough to run in a diesel engine to so heavy it is like tar. The reason we like Saudi oil is it is very light and less expensive to refine. Same with a lot of TX light sweet crude oil. The benchmark by which other oils are graded.

    Sulfur is one of the things that puts soot in the air. That black smoke you see billowing out of a tractor under load. We are way behind some EU countries on cleaning up our fuel.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Let me try to help you here.

    Crude oil has sulfur in it as part of the process of it's formation. There are some crude oils that contain higher levels of sulfur than others. Refiners have used what is available to make gasolene and middle distillate, diesel fuel. Some of the sulfur is removed in the refining process.

    With the new lower levels of sulfur being required, crude oil with lower amounts of sulfur will be easier to refine than normal higher sulfur crude oil. A portion of the sulfur is organically bound and can be difficult/expensive to remove. I do not understand the process fully of how that is done.

    What many people do not know is that there are various types of crude oil. It is not just one generic type of crude.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    On a market basis, the numbers one usually hears on the news is the price of light sweet crude. The "other stuff" can wholesale for up to 30% less than that (price) commodity. So assuming no huge difference in the refining costs, if you can refine the "other stuff" you are a a competitive advantage, especially if one sells the end product at the same prices.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,754
    ok. thanks for the explanations. so, winter, this still doesn't support your price increase comment, correct? As gagrice said, its been in process already.

    OH, wait, are you saying that, because lower sulfur crude will be in more demand for use in both diesel and gas (since diesel could theoretically use higher sulfur crude before), this will now translate into higher prices across the board? Ok, that must be the point. In which case, now I understand what yer saying. I'll hope gagrice is right, though.

    and now that i see ruking's point, that also gives me hope. Of course, that all depends on the cost of processing and whether the price difference of the crude can offset the other costs.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Correct. Frankly it was hard to ferret out the information I proffered. It is not ever put in those terms. I have almost never heard any mainstream publication say this.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Legislating for oil products used at sea is a much more difficult concept having to come to terms with such elements as limited jurisdiction, multifarious selling points and roving consumers. As a result, the fuel oil market for sea-going vessels has become a quality-free zone, creating a useful “sulfur-sink” for the oil industry faced with increasingly limited opportunities of disposing of high sulfur fuel oil in the inland markets.

    http://www.mees.com/postedarticles/oped/v48n25-5OD01.htm
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Even though the process to remove sulfur from refined products has been ongoing for some time, the new lower levels are harder to obtain with your basic crude oils, but with low sulfur crude, it is less of a problem as it will take less effort (refining) to bring sulfur levels down to mandated levels. I expect the cost of ULSD to be 4 - 7 cents more per gallon then the present day fuel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    hope gagrice is right, though.

    I am basing my opinion on the fact that CA has had low sulfur gas and diesel for some time. Other than the price jump from Katrina & Rita the prices were relatively close to the rest of the country. We are now at $2.119 at my local Costco. Diesel has not come down a lot since October, BP ULSD is at $2.659. Time will tell where that ends up.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,754
    I expect the cost of ULSD to be 4 - 7 cents more per gallon then the present day fuel.

    heck, that kind of swing happens on a weekly basis these days.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I am only passing on what I have read and have heard. I expect to see volatility in fuel prices for years to come and I expect this volatilty to worsen.

    With the Middle East being so unstable, who knows what is going to happen.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Just from the information I have gathered over the years, Alaska crude has a very high sulfur content compared to other domestic crude oils and so the refineries in Anacortes and Cherry Pt. WA have been designed with this in mind. Also of note, late last summer (2005) we took a barge to Conaco-Phillips at Cherry Pt. with 2 new cracking towers. I have no idea if this part of the new ULSD production, but makes for good speculation. :shades:
  • boilermaker2boilermaker2 Member Posts: 131
    Gagrice, I'm curious. Where do these plants stand w/re to the Sierra Club and the EPA today? While I'm sure they're not on either's Christmas list, have they since retrofitted their refineries to clean up their act?

    At least some of the quotes in the articles above were made in '02-'03. By this time, it should have been filed in court somewhere and possible judgment past.

    Another article mentioned that some refineres agreed to clean up their act.

    What else do you know?

    Boilermaker2
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As far as I know the lawsuits are still ongoing. I cannot find any reference to a settlement. The one big plant in St. Paul settled with local residents. Sierra Club is not the only one battling the EPA and Ethanol. A very outspoken Senator from CA has tried to get it out of CA gas for several years. The latest letter to the EPA was March of 2005. I imagine it will go the way of MTBE when all the downsides of ethanol come to light.

    I wanted to make sure you are aware of an issue that I have been working on for the past five years: California’s application for a waiver from the federal oxygenate requirement. As you may know, California phased-out methyl tertiary-butyl ether (MTBE) in March 1999 due to its carcinogenic properties and the threat the additive poses to drinking water supplies. In April 1999, then-Governor Davis formally requested a waiver from the oxygenate mandate from the former EPA Administrator, Carol Browner.

    The California Air Resource Board (CARB) researched this issue at length and found that ethanol-blended gasoline does not help California meet the goals of the Clean Air Act as it relates to reducing ozone formation, particularly during the summertime, and, in fact, ethanol actually increases the emission of pollutants that cause ozone during the summer months.


    http://feinstein.senate.gov/05releases/r-epa-oxygenate030905.htm
  • donzi81donzi81 Member Posts: 59
    I suppose it depends what part of the country you're in. In the mid-Atlantic, the unleaded gas is around $0.30 less than diesel. This was not the primary reason that disuaded me from the Jetta TDI, it was just too crude of an engine (noise and vibration). Once underway, you hardly notice it, but when sitting still, it does not sound nice. I absolutely love the 2.0l direct inj gas engine. The Jetta should be on everyone's list if you want a fine engineered car. It is a bargain even when fully loaded. I did settle on the Prius, but the cost difference with the tax credit is hard to give up. Thanks for all those that assisted in my decision making process.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    When I test drove a Jetta TDI wagon last Feb., I found the engine a little noisy at idle and there was a little vibration. As you found, once underway, it was unobtrusive. I purchased a Jeep Liberty CRD with the 2.8L turbo diesel. I have some noise when cold, but once warmed up, it is fairly quiet. When accelerating it is a bit noisy but once you are at cruising speed it is quiet. As for vibration, there is none. I have two counter-rotating balance shafts in the block which quell any vibration. As for the noise, it is a diesel.
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