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Comments
I think the Solstice may have the right recipe.
No kidding. Did you see the numbers on the C6 Z06? Holy hell! That GM could put together that package and sell it for $65k is just flat out awesome.
I can see them getting into mainstream sedans and blowing away the competition if they do it right. That would require a major investment. But the sports cars are pretty much set in stone, that is, not going lower.
You know, Cayenne seems it was a pretty low-risk calculation. At least hindsight bears that out. It appears much of the profits may now be going into Panamera which is far from a lock. They’re a small company and if they don’t play their cards right they can find themselves back on the precipice, a place they spent a good part of their existence.
Porsche sports cars are the best cars because they have a niche made of people who like a little excitement. But I think this talk about them being the best car company well that's a bit of wishful thinking. Plus, I don’t see any money-from-heaven vehicles like Cayenne coming their way any time soon. Panamera as an exotic sure ain’t gonna do it. And Cayman is going to steal sales from both Boxster and C2, very few conquests IMO.
SUV sales were off ~10% before the current fuel spike. Where’s that gonna leave Porsche in the wake, coming off +200% sales increases after Cayenne’s ingress? I hope their not too cocky, firing up stogies with $100 bills.
RE: gas mileage -- Porsche buyers really don't care about this too much, unless it was say extremely bad. But a few MPG to a 911 buyer, he/she could care less.
High performance car buyers do not, I believe, pay much attention to EPA or Consumer Reports.
This is why I think the best Porsche type is still a sunroof coupe.
505hp out of a new 7 liter small block with a dry sump oiling system (a Corvette first and probably a first for this price range). Redline of 7000rpm. C&D got 11.6 @ 125mph in the 1/4 mile. The car is like 31xx lbs, which is pretty light if you ask me (a lot of people think the Corvette is heavy - it's not). Apparently they're target during development was the 911 Turbo. They actually bought one. Pick up the latest C&D or Autoweek and get back to me. I think you'll be impressed. Absolutely nothing compares at this price range. It's a Ford GT-class car for pennies. Except you could use it every day. And it is rated at 16/24 which means it's exempt from the gas guzzler tax, unbelievably.
To quote AutoWeek:
The Corvette team says one goal for Z06 was to build a car owners could drive on any closed circuit and not have to worry that “anything would leave you in the dust, even if it cost five or six times more money.”
Chevy pulled out the obligatory Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times to make the point: With Jan Magnussen, winner of the 2004 and 2005 Le Mans 24 Hour, at the helm, the Z06 clocked a seven-minute, 42.99-second lap of the 13-mile Green Hell, 16 seconds faster than a Z51-equipped C6. Porsche’s $440,000, 604-hp Carrera GT, with a seven-minute, 32.44-second lap, is the only production car to have gone quicker. For perspective, Lamborghini’s $283,000, 580-hp Murciélago clocked in at seven minutes, 50 seconds, and the $452,000, 671-hp McLaren-Mercedes SLR at seven minutes, 52 seconds
I dunno what you mean by "mainstream", surely you aren't suggesting they try to compete w CamCords, 300Cs and Impalas.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The Panamera done right could be a real competitor for the high performance series: MB AMG, Audi S, BMW M and Jag R sedans.
Porsche owners don't want to drive Chevys, that's why they pony up the extra bucks. You're just posting "the numbers", which is fine, but cars aren't all about numbers. If it were all about numbers, everyone would just buy a Mustang and supercharge it, right? Or mod an EVO or WRX. Why spend money on a Z06?
Chevys have been faster than most Porsches for the last 50 years. It just doesn't mean much in the marketplace that these cars live in. Buying choices are way more complex than that, in this price bracket.
Comparative number posting oversimplifies what is actually going on with Porsche I think. You'll never get to the answer by doing that. Ditto Ferrari or Morgan or all the other odd ducks in the automotive world. A Corvette is both extraordinary and yet very ordinary at the same time, which is both a blessing and a curse,depending on where you are coming from.
Tell that to the 2004 911 owner who has researched the new Corvette Z06 (he bought it in June of 2004). I doubt he wants to deal with the RMS (rear main seal) leaks that Porsche refuses to fix.
A real automobile enthusiast often "accepts" many cars as highly credible and competent, but he will not "approve" of all of them, that is, he will not "like" all of them well enough to buy one.
There are lots of cars I accept as the "real thing" but many of them I don't like enough to buy.
I seriously doubt if trading in one car for a certain problem to get a "perfect" car instead, is any more successful than trading in one husband/wife for a perfect one.
Your happiness with a car depends on your approval of the car. If you don't like a certain car you will never EVER tolerate its imperfections.
This is why say Ferrari ownership seems totally insane to people who don't like Ferraris but makes perfect sense to Ferrari owners.
They have fairly large cash reserves now and probably can afford to develop the sedans and even an entry level Porsche.
It is a challenge to be financially disciplined thru both good and tough times.
They tried a 914 (mid engine) and a 924 and 928 ( both front engine). No one bought them.
Now they are trying a mid engine Boxster, and have sold a couple. They also sell a couple SUVs (big original idea).
Yep, they are stuck revising the good old 911, which is based on the Volkswagen Ferdinand make for Adolph. Rear engine and rear wheel drive. Terrible combination. If it was a good idea, many others would have copied it.
Porsche reminds me of a singer who had one hit but no more. All he can do is keep singing the same old song.
Sure, they keep improving the 911, which is a wonderful car. However, they can't get out of that rut and try anything truly new. Pitiful
-Well for one thing they've survived as a small independent when nearly every prominent builder of of sports and racing cars has either folded or been absorbed by a larger entity.
-They've amassed a record of competition victories unmatched by any car maker on earth.
-They've consistently built some of the best performing and most reliable sports cars. If you think today's 911 is the same car they introduced 40 years ago you know nothing about 911s.
-Their engineering department has a world wide list of clients both in and out of the
automobile business.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Weideking's plan to add more models makes sense to me. Porsche's brand image is sterling and he has the cash to do it.
IMO he will achieve his goal of tripling sales if the new models are Porsches in both name and nature.
A more complete Porsche line will really challenge the other hi-line Euros.
At least GT1 will be more exciting than the boring Porsche parade in GT2 at Petit Le Mans...
Some of the best performing - yes ...... reliable...? they're a technicians lottery ticket and a service departments future retirement ......
Terry
The problem with Porsche and with German engineering in general is that it tends to be overly-complex. They seem to aspire to levels of subtlety that I'm not sure the average Porsche driver wants or needs.
I hope part of Porsche's future business plan is to make a directional signal switch with (not real numbers, just relative) 35 parts like the Japanese do rather than 178 like they do.... . (but not 3 parts like the americans).
I'll have you know that the turn signal switches (unistalk) on both of my GM cars work perfectly still. Of course, they feel like crap to operate, but they work!
I think Porsche is putting far too much at risk buying 20% of a company that is doing so poorly worldwide.
This will vacuum up cash that should be used to develop the new vehicle lines Porsche plans.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I still don't get it. Porsche is so strong now - why take such a chance with a company (VW) that is really in the tank?
The lower end of the auto market is not Porsche territory!
Terry :P
As long as porsche continues to make beautiful, highly competent supercars, I don't care if they build refrigerators or baby strollers and put their name on it. I'm sure it will be a very fast baby stroller anyway.
Extremely high maintainance costs are part of the Porsche package: buyers realize that up front.
VW is a money pit: it will sponge up all the money as Porsche is willing to give.
I am sad to see Porsche wasting their reserves so carelessly.
True Cost to Own for a Porsche is about the same as any car in its class, such as Jaguar XK, according to Edmunds research.
Oh thats right .. Edmunds likes to use the conversion rate between the Equadorian dollar and the Madagascar franc .........
Terry.
here you go:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/chevrolet/corvette/100375991/cto.html?setzip=94901&vdp=off- &tid=edmunds.n.ctoindex.cto.1.1.Chevrolet*
I think people must get their porsche service costs from Field and Stream magazine or something. Porsche are very sturdy cars. A Corvette will cost you only $500 less over five years in Maintenance and $1,000 less in Repairs, while it will depreciate much more severly than a Porsche in relation to its MSRP. After five years there's only $10K difference in price between the two cars, whereas at MSRP there was almost $30K difference.
Insurance and fuel are same-o, same-o.
Using your example, let's take a Porsche at $90,000 MSRP and Corvette at $60,000 MSRP. To arrive at the $10,000 difference after five years the Porsche would be worth perhaps $50,000 and the Corvette $40,000 as used cars.
That puts the Porsche at 50% of MSRP and the Corvette at 67% of MSRP.
Am I missing something?
What I meant was that the Porsche, in five years, depreciates only $10,000 more than the Corvette, even though they started 30K apart. You'd expect that after five years the car costing $30K more would have depreciated $30K more.
So the Corvette rate of depreciation is quite severe compared to the Porsche.
Or to look at it another way, if you add up every conceivable cost for the $81,000 Porsche vs. the $53,000 Corvette, the statistics indicate that the Corvette will cost you, in the end, $13,500 more than the MSRP but the Porsche would have cost you only $6,000 over the MSRP.
Or to look at it a THIRD way, when both cars are sold, the Porsche owner is only $20,000 more out of pocket rather than the $30K more out of pocket that he started with.
Theoretically, if you kept both cars long enough, I'd suspect that the cost to own for each car would draw ever closer, as the Porsche will be worth double and then triple the Corvette in the used car market.
But all I'm really trying to say is that the only "bargain" part of a Corvette is when you buy it...which IS "real money" so I'm not knocking it.
I think maybe you might be too quick again. Unless you fully cost out your cars over 5 years, no residual value, I don't think the entire difference would be expected to go away in the first five years.
Just depreciation I'm seeing a Vette going down about $5k per year for the first four years, maybe just under that. $45k to $25k but that is mine which is tracked and probably low compared to a garage queen. How much per year is drop in Porsche, base model over that span?
Randy
..**Or to look at it another way, if you add up every conceivable .......**
.. **Or to look at it a THIRD way, when both cars are sold ....... **
..**Theoretically, if you kept both cars long enough, I'd suspect .......**
Theoretically ... if your Uncle wore a dress during the holidays, he'd be your Aunt --- "theoretically" ....
keep reachin' ...................
Terry
Prices of common parts like alternators, brake rotors and calipers, power window motors, etc. are astonishingly high.
I remain very skeptical that a Porsche costs the same as a Chev to own and maintain.
Sure it's going to cost more to run a Porsche....but it's not like a Ferrari or Rolls Royce, and I doubt more than a Benz or BMW.
ANYWAY--this is getting way off topic. This forum is supposed to be about Porsche business practices.
VW PURCHASE -- I asked a few dealers about this and they thought Porsche was crazy to buy in.
And if we talk about body work, I don't think you can make a case that fiberglass, hi-tech plastic whatever, repair, is any easier or cheaper than metalwork.
VW is in serious trouble on many fronts. To tackle VW's problems and solve them is a job for a company with Toyota-sized financial reserves.
Porsche is at the very top of its game and has so many new product plans that IMO look real promising. I haven't seen a statement from Weideking yet. I still can't believe they took this step.
You know, we on the outside always assume that these distinguished gray-haired gentlemen in the various board rooms of the world are all knowing and all wise but in fact history has proven otherwise, and continues to do so with alarming regularity.
Sometimes individually smart and successful people make a totally bozo decision collectively.
I have managed this trick myself a few times.
It still bothers me to see Porsche do such an inexplicable thing. Porsche has not only come back from the brink but prospered and has a solid place in the top echelon of the performance car world.