Porsche - the world's best car company.

highender

Well I'm still kinda po'd about the Cayenne

welll, it is a better vehicle than most out there.

it seems a pointless car to me

If you call the ability to fjord 22 inches of water, have real offroad ability, have 150 mph ability, and status to go to the country club pointless , then all other vehicles in the world would be pointless....

since you can't fully utilize it's on- or off-road capabilities without having two sets of very expensive tires (maybe three if you count snows),

all you have to do is change tires...and then only if you want to go extreme high speed then immediately offroad.....Normally, the continentals and Michelins do fine for most owners.
And when you want to do that..all you have to change is the tires... for most other vehicles ( no disrespect to the OTHERs) , You not only have to change tires...but you also have to CHANGE the vehicle !!!! . Oh well.... I understand that some people it makes more economic sense to buy another vehicle for another chore...but why not combine it ?

it's distressingly ugly

well, there is no accounting for taste ....maybe I am guilty....but I would rather be in a cayenne than some of the other vehicles out there....plus I think its a great looking car.....silent and like a whale shark......LOts of thumbs up from other drivers and even some police officers....yeah !!! :P

Mr_Shiftright

I have heard about a new standard for ugliness.....milli-helens.

If Helen of Troy was so beautiful that she launched 1,000 ships, then the most beautiful object in the world is therefore One Helen.

So 900 millihelens would be pretty pretty.

I think a Cayenne is about 650-700 millihelens, but an Aztek is about 100 mh.

scott1256

I am enthused about Porsche getting into larger cars/sedans.

I hope the new cars are clearly one up on the BMW-M/Merc-AMG/Caddy-V cars. Note to Porsche: too much HP will be just right, thank you.

At least two sedan sizes with coupe and convertible variants would really open new markets to Porsche.

Glad you like your Cayenne........I still think it is a detour for Porsche.

andys120

I like your MilliHelen idea but 650MH is pretty generous. IMO the Cayenne looks like the result of an Explorer rear-ending a 911.

highender

I agree....I think we agree on 90% of what is said here....

I hope they get the horse power, handling, and styling right....

Glad you like your Cayenne........I still think it is a detour for Porsche.

I agree with you....heck...even Porsche agrees with you....that is why they looked long and hard before they made the cayenne....right when everyone already bought one.... For my family and I, the Cayenne was perfect....four seater Porsche with real room for kids, real zoom for the big kid (me). If we had no kids...then I would have gotten my 928 ... too bad for me

That said....I think the Cayenne is a great test bed for Porsche technology.....all the things that went wrong could be corrected and then they would have the proven tech to install in the new sedan....( which is more of a developing new markets, instead of detour, IMO) .

highender

LOL.... I agree....Shifty's idea is just right....a good unit of measure.

I agree also that the looks of Cayenne, fx45, lambo countach, ferrari enzo, prius, etc..are more acquired tastes......not as easy to accept as , say, my former Honda Civic sedan ( not that there is anything wrong with that).

I think the looks are closer to a BMW X-5 mom and a 997 DAd...

In my own biased opinion, I think I would give the Cayenne a 750 millihelen..

Lower the car, add front and rear spoilers, larger wheels, and smooth out the body a little, and maybe it could be a 950 ....

Techart does an OK job with the Magnum interpretation of Cayenne...

Mr_Shiftright

Dirty secret---the Cayenne's engine is really an old 928 engine design.

jrosasmc

The four-cylinder used in the 944 for many years is essentially one-half of a 928's engine.

Am I right, Shifty?

highender

yes... actually, why tinker with a good design when you got one ?! I was less conscientious about maintenance when I had my 928.....drove it forever with no oil change, no timing belt change, no tune ups , etc( short on Vitamin M ...money) ....but the darn thing just kept going and going and going. Never had a problem, except needed to replace the tires.....

I looked at the engine....and even the intake manifold looks similarly placed....

Mr_Shiftright

It's "based on" the 928 engine but two 944 engines would have more displacement than one 928 engine.

928 engines are super tough, that's right. In bottom-end durability, the equal of any engine ever made IMO.

scott1256

get the large sales increases that Mr. Weideking wants without a lower priced series? There is only so much room in the upper price atmosphere.

Mercedes has gained a lot of sales with the C-class and basic E-class cars.

I would love to see what Porsche could build at a point $10,000 below the base Boxster.

Would a less expensive series be a blow to the whole Porsche image?

andys120

I would love to see what Porsche could build at a point $10,000 below the base Boxster.

Me too, they could do it easily enough by loping off two cylinders and eliminating
aircon, cruise etc. If some of you think a simplified, cheaper Porsche roadster w only 4 pots is a bad idea, you don't know where Porsche came from.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the lesson of the 914 and 924 was painful enough for Porsche that they will not repeat that.

andys120

The lesson of those cars wasn't that they shouldn't field four cylinder cars IMO, it's that they couldn't pass off cars without Porsche motors as true Porsches.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah that's all true but you have to cut costs somewhere. They chose the motors and also using off the shelf VW and Audi hardware to save $$$. But Porsche buyers want their cars to not only be fast and handle well, but to exhibit outstanding build quality and high grade materials. The Boxster is already pushing that, I can't see how they could take $10K out of it unless you want a Subaru with a Porsche badge on it. Hmmm...I guess Saab already did that.....

jrosasmc

But- when the 944 was introduced to take the 944's place in '83, do you think the overall build quality and performance increased by a lot?

jrosasmc

Sorry, I meant to say "when the 944 was introduced to take the 924's place..."

scott1256

cylinder Porsche with Porsche motor and styling cues would sell very well.

A less expensive series is essential if Mr. Weideking really wants to increase sales from 33,000 cars a year to 100,000 in the USA.

Mr_Shiftright

Well maybe if they did it "just right"--but it's risky, very risky, to drop a prestige name into a lower price class.

I think the 944S and Turbo reflect better build quality

rsholland

Remember the 356? The car that started it all? Or the much revered Speedster, not to mention a whole list of other 356-based sports cars. All boxer 4s.

So I don't think 4-cylinder cars are the problem. Finding the right recipe is...

Bob

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but a 356 was expensive. It was definitely not a cheap car and it wasn't a Volkswagen. A 1960 356 was almost $4,000!

I think Japan owns the 4 cylinder sports car market and nobody does it better.

jrosasmc

Shifty if anyone tried to completely rebuild an early 911 flat-6 motor (c. 1965-69) how much do you think it would cost them if they had a professional technician do all the work?

Mr_Shiftright

I know exactly. For a first class 250,000 mile motor, about $12,000, installed, with all the little bits you need as well. Cutting corners, maybe $7,500 but it's risky.

However, at 250K the crankshaft may still be good. The $12K assumes a new crank and the very best German (not japanese) parts.

highender

yes....finding the right combo of

1- 4 cylinder engine with good power and economy (fuel)
2- 6 cylinder with better power and good economy also...ala 968
3- great evolutionary styling
4- good value relatively speaking
5- reasonable price

xkss

Are they going to make one in order to somehow be an even better car company?

:sick:

kyfdx

The 968 also had a 4-cylinder.... 3.0 litres... but, still a 4...

rsholland

I could see a small ultra-lite (think Lotus Elise) neo-Speedster using a 2.0 Boxer. Porsche has done some design work for Subaru (various Legacy Blitzens and Euro-Impreza) in the past. Maybe Subaru could supply 2.0 STi boxer engines, to save costs? Porsche could use those engines right out of the crate, or tweak them to "Porsche-ize" them.

I'm thinking of a vehicle that's smaller and less expensive than the Boxster; an entry-level Porsche for those who aspire to own a Porsche but can't (yet) afford a traditional Porsche.

If you think it's sacrilege to use a non-Porsche engine, note that the Elise uses a Toyota engine, and it hasn't hurt it's image. Granted, Lotus has always used engines that were sourced elsewhere, but still... Heck, the original Porsche engine was nothing more than a tweaked VW engine, so getting an engine elsewhere is not without precedent.

Bob

rsholland

getting parts from elsewhere (Cayenne) is not without recent precedent. Maybe Porsche will have to do more of this (getting components from other sources) in the future?

Bob

andys120

a non-Porsche engine. If the car is to be seen as a real Porsche it must have a Porsche- built engine of pancake design.

rsholland

Just looking for a way to keep costs down. Porsche could get around that if the STi engine were "Porsche-tuned." As you know Subaru uses a boxer engine, like Porsche, so it might not be viewed so poorly by the Porsche faithful. If Porsche had a current boxer 4, well that would be different. I suppose they could always lop off a couple of cylinders the Boxster engine, if they had to, but the Subie engine is already available. That would clearly be the best way to offer a relatively inexpensive car.

Bob

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think Porsche is the least bit interested in this market. What you will see is a base model of the Cayman however.

Porsche initial simplicity as a car was based strictly on postwar necessities. Prestigious car companies never (or rarely) willingly simplify--if anything they tend to more complex products to further glorify their names.

Maybe Ford can do this but I don't think the Porsche reputation would survive.

highender

I stand corrected....

my friends' 968 could really go...and saves gas too.....

I almost got one....

highender

yes.. I agree....the Elise is still doing well....

I think it is possible to go the Lotus route...not many people were buying the Esprit....so they sought out a new market niche..

but IF Porsche goes that route...they would have to make sure it would be the best performance at that price.....

I think Porsche already thinks the boxster or Cayman fills that niche...( in thier point of view)

I have no problem with Porsche using the subaru turbo boxer engine...but Porsche enthusiasts might....( was that blasphemy that I just uttered ?)

Mr_Shiftright

Total blasphemy I'm sure.

Subaru makes a good engine but it's pretty crude. It takes us back to the problems of the 924.

jrosasmc

You think Subaru's engines are still crude even in this present day?

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's a strictly relative term. It's an inexpensive car, but you get your money's worth in power, not refinement. Their engines can be buzzy at high rpm and they are rather peaky---they don't fit the Porsche character.

rsholland

Not talking about the car, but the engine. You think an STi "engine" is crude and/or buzzy? Or more important, not Porsche-worthy?

Bob

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, in the sense that it's not in the Porsche "character". It's Japanese. It doesn't work in a German car and isn't really suited for high speed touring. It's great in a rallye car, though or for a little street pocket-rocket.

rsholland

When I mentioned "Porsche-ize it" a few posts back, what I meant was to take that engine, and do whatever is necessary to give it that proper Porsche character. It's a boxer engine in the best of Porsche tradition. I would think the STi engine's street brawler manners could be exorcised without too much time being spent in finishing school. Heck they could even use the the 250 HP Legacy turbo, which is a lot more refined (and cheaper still) than the 300 HP STi turbo.

The other point I was making, should Porsche ever decide to offer an "true" entry-level sports car, to help generate a new, young customer base, starting with an existing engine is far cheaper and quicker than doing a new one in-house.

The other premium European brands (Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Volvo) seem to realize that it's important to have a product at the lower end of the market. Why would Porsche not want to be there too? If Porsche doesn't offer a car that young sports car fans can afford, they may lose a good portion of that audience forever to the Japanese.

Bob

designman

Last I read, they have no interest in creating anything below the Boxster which is their idea of the “low end” of the market. When the Boxster hit the streets in 97 at ~$39,999.99 I think the price was more of a challenge for them, further instigated by people who said they couldn’t or wouldn’t do it at that price. Affordable cars are not where their heads are at, and I think selling a Porsche with less power than a base Boxster is unimaginable in today’s market. Cranking out a Boxster coupe at $59K is a good example of how undaunted and perhaps hell-bent they are.

They’ve got enough to keep them busy with Cayman and Panamera right now. If the latter ever sees the light of day I’d like to see what the price tag will be. Unless some bean counter waves a finger at them with some compelling argument, the affordable Porsche is as elusive as it gets and $44K is as low as it gets.

Furthermore, youngsters still aspire to own Porsches more than most other cars. This was revealed in a recent survey, so I don’t think they have to work on the branding except to perpetuate the racing heritage. That highest profit margin per car is also part of their heritage.

I notice a lot of Subaru enthusiasts seek a more upscale product and image, however I am quite happy with the bang-for-buck aspect of the brand and would rather it didn’t change. My Outback has been a loyal workhorse. It’s bad enough I have to pay the ransom for the P car. The S2000, STi and Corvette bring a lot to the table at a steal compared to Porsches. In the end, if the latter hits your sweetspot you just pay, and this ain’t changin’ anytime soon.

kyfdx

It was a quote from a Porsche executive... don't remember who...

The entry level Porsche is a used Porsche.

regards,
kyfdx
Host--Prices Paid Forums

designman

Yep, they sure know how to rub it in. BTW congrats on your host deal.

Mr_Shiftright

Now he'll get to see all the bad things we said about him :P

RE: Entry Level Porsche --- all points well taken Bob, but I think it's really a marketing/philosophical kind of issue rather than a practical mechanical one. It's "could they " as opposed to "would they".

I think it Porsche were financially distressed they might try an entry level car, much say like Packard did to stay alive (and it worked for a while), but generally a prestige car marker doesn't ever want to go cheap unless it has to. Remember those cheap Harleys...disaster...

Besides, who is crazy enough to compete with a Miata and the S2000?

andys120

That's a paraphrase of a statement from a high-ranking GM exec who when asked if higher prices were making GM cars unaffordable suggested a two y/o Buick as an affordable alternative.

I can't recall if it was Waggoner or Roger Smith.

Mr_Shiftright

It's interesting....a 1999 Porsche Boxster is now worth the same as a 1984 Porsche 911 and both are cheaper than a new Miata---so there's plenty of opportunity to "go Porsche", either in the old or new incarnations. There's a real used Boxster glut and I think an entry level Porsche would collide with it.

rsholland

Yes, you can always go and get a used car, but it's just not the same as getting a new car—even if it is a used Porsche. For some that may be the answer, but for others it's not. They will want a new car.

Bob

scott1256

to triple sales over the next few year if an Elise-type car is not part of the plan.

Are the sedans/coupes/convertibles that spring from the Panamera platform going to increase sales to the degree Weideking wants?

designman

Triple sales??!! No way. Where did you get that?

The only reason I can see them doing a lower-end vehicle is to better fuel efficiency to meet newer standards. And personally, I think they would go to a hybrid Cayenne before they went low end. That's if SUV piggies survive this current fuel price onslaught. I don't think SUVs are going to make it much longer, especially if the Dems get back in after Bush.

scott1256

This came from an article on Weideking (Porsche CEO) that was linked to in post #243. (The article is now in the 'subscription only' archives).

In this article, Mr. Weideking was quoted as wanting to triple Porsche sales over several years.

The Panamera sedan line is part of his plan to accomplish this. IMO the sedans will open up a new market but an entry level Porsche may be necessary as well.

Increasing sales by 300% is a tall order for any brand!

kevm14

Would a less expensive series be a blow to the whole Porsche image?

If Porsche is supposed to be the best money can buy (to an extent), then yes. Frankly, I think the non-Porsche market is so dense and well-developed that Porsche might have trouble making an in. I am picturing a car that starts off at, say, $35k, but can be optioned out to, say, $50k but in terms of value to the customer, offers no more than, say, a $31k G35. That's what I'm picturing. And X amount of image-conscious buyers will flock to it.