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A friend of my mother's is looking to buy a '91 928 S4- it's located somewhere in the NYC area. It's automatic and has 109k miles on it. Any major issues to watch out for on early '90s 928s?
This forum is really about Porsche as a "business"-----Forbes called Porsche the "best car company in the world" in terms of its business acumen.
And to build upon that, I'd also like to see them enter the Baja 1000 and other western US off-road events with the Cayenne.
Then those who suggest that Porsche is straying from their racing roots with the Cayenne, would have less to complain about.
Bob
Terry.
Bob
So why hasn't Porsche fixed the RMS (rear main seal) leaks of the 911?
But then again, they make a lot of money from the 911 and Boxster due to the fact that only the 996 Turbo, GT2, and GT3 use a racing-derived engine which has much better build quality than the regular Boxster and 911 engines.
Why has it taken so many years for them to build a new prototype sports car?
Why did they sell out when they made the Cayenne?
Randy
Both wonderful, both wildly different automobiles built for different purposes IMO.
It is interesting that for comparisons, the mags are having to take the fully optioned $50k to $58k Corvette and compare it to cars that start at $75 and get well north of $100k. Then again that's the mags I read, there are some import tuner articles which laud the WRX/Evo and they do seem to be capable if too high in COG to make me want one on the track. I realize the track is not everything, but it is an indicator.
Randy
You either get it or you don't, or maybe I should say, you either like it or you don't. I myself can easily see $20K difference between a 997 and a Corvette, and would pay for it in a red hot minute if I had the money (sigh).
So I guess I'm the kind of buyer Porsche is looking for, or has cultivated or brainwashed or whatever.
I really don't care what numbers or magazines say. Would I like to have an EVO on the track--absolutely! Would I drive one everyday? No way.
For that kind of money, I want a car that does a lot of things really really well, of which only some of them are performance oriented.
I mean, think of all the factors that a thoughtful buyer might consider:
prestige
build quality
resale
quality of materials
performance
dealer service
handling/driving every day
club affinities/social
longevity
comfort
safety
styling
You add 'em all up into one bundle, and Porsche looks pretty good I think, and I think that total view is what sells the cars.
Most fields have one or two companies that are very successful financially (Harley, Microsoft, etc.).
You don't have to love the products, but these companies have good managers and great financial results.
They all seem to work. I suspect Porsche has aspects of all of the above, but probably more in common with Harley in the sense of brilliant marketing and uncommonly rabid owner loyalty.
You can get people to jump in and out of most cars or motorcycles, depending on the "deal" or the next "new gadget" but with Porsche or Harley, the customers are tenacious. No amount of "data" is going to do it.
As a Harley exec once said (paraphrase): "Not too many companies can brag that their customers tattoo the product's logo on their foreheads".
I wonder if they will feel better noting that all the stitches are perfect?
Shifty you note that you would gladly spend the extra $20k, given that either of us had it, but I'm thinking the difference is mightly beyond that. I got my '02 C5 for under $45k, and my wife's for under $40k, a 2004, . The base 911 starts at $69 and both those Vettes are fully optioned. Today I could drive off in a Z51, 6sp HUD, etc., for less than $50k. I don't think you could get the 911 off the lot with just basic upgrades for less than $75 and then you get tax at 50% greater, licence and is the 911 a gas guzzler? I'm thinking $30k for a poorman's 911 and upgrade to your wallet's content.
Randy
Besides, you can't blame the car for the way people drive them. I know plenty Porsche drivers you (or I) won't pass on the track no matter what we're driving. And besides that, a Viper will kill both of us, so that makes Viper the best car?
Doubt it, the reasoning doesn't sit well with me.
I was just looking for something that quantifies what the extra $ are for beyond image. For that matter not just the extra $'s, but up to the comparable price. My view of a good company is one that offers value, in both performance and other factors, just to stay on topic.
Randy
Then again, I presume I'm a lost cause, since I've learned to drive with front engine, RWD, lots of torque and just having fun. Reminds me to get back to Open Wheel and slide some more, then everything I pass or get passed by looks the same.
I guess maybe that's why I respond to Porsche....I love the high tech angle if it is very clever and well done. The Lexus had anti-collision radar (calculates upcoming collision, tightens your seat belts, lowers the car, applies ABS), laser-guided cruise control, active suspension, rear-view TV camera, smart key starting, automatic door closers, air conditioned seats with vibrators, heat-seeking vents (they start reciprocating if they sense uneven temperature in the car), voice command NAV, bluetooth, single-slot feed for multiple CDs (like mailing letters!), and on and on.
I think Lexus and Porsche may be aiming at different markets of course but both are certainly aiming at buyers who want "the latest and the best".
RE: Porsche vs. Corvette--- I already posted a long list of considerations and "image" wasn't on the list, so re-read that and you'll get an idea of what I think goes into a buyer's mind when he coughs up the extra $20K for the Porsche. I've been asking Porsche buyers in another forum why they chose Porsche over Vette. So these guys voted with their wallets and I'll let you know what else they say. One guy said "numbers don't tell the story".
Me myself I like the high tech, the driving experience and the beautiful quality of Porsche products. Corvettes are great, but they look and feel totally American and I suspect that this is another reason why many well to do Americans don't want one (and also why many DO!). A Corvette is a Mustang is a Camaro is a Viper...all in the family. Porsche isn't like anything else you can drive.
Maybe that explains their popularity? Just throwin' stuff out there to chew on :P
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I think this is one reason I developed a high respect for Porsche cars. I get to drive 100K- 200K mile Porsches that are almost as tight and clean as the day they were made. Impressive. Also get to see some weaknesses in engineering, I must admit. They aren't perfect, but then no car is.
That reminds me of an ad for certified used VWs. Something about obsession. I always kind of thought of VW the same as Porsche - good build quality, a "nice" feel and the basic design and powertrain may be certified to 300k, but to actually get there was NOT going to cost you merely a few oil changes, tires and brakes...
To that end, Shifty, do you consider Porsche cars to be more reliable, troublefree and durable than VW? I think Porsche has durability down. The other two I need more info on.
I got my '02 C5 for under $45k, and my wife's for under $40k, a 2004, . The base 911 starts at $69 and both those Vettes are fully optioned.
C&D had a piece a year or so ago on 911 vs C6. They took everything into consideration and while deeming the C6 a superb value (performance wise no one would deny it), they also felt something less tangible about the way the 911 "connected" with the driver that the Vette just didn't have. Makes me want to try one to see what all the fuss is. Something tells me I am just not in Porsche's demographic and would probably choose the Vette and keep the change.
Most or all of that technology is either not new, or currently available on the competition, like Infinity or Acura. The M45 has that lane departure system that the Lexus doesn't even offer. Same with the camera and seats. The HVAC system with IR isn't even new, I think the Jeep Grand Cherokee had it a few years ago. Bluetooth, voice command and in-dash CD changers are also not new...the auto door closers were a staple of the early 90s Benz S-class and, if you can believe it, early 90s Acura Legend coupes.
I do agree with you: the LS is top shelf competition in the premium sedan field.
I like having a large luxoboat...but to me, a LS is way too stodgy. I even like the 7er a lot more, and I think the S is still the nicest looking big player.
When the Porsche sedan and the new Bentley are on the market, the S600 and S55/65 are going to have serious competition.
Besides, who wants "brand new" technology. Not me. I like leading edge not bleeding edge.
So I meant how the technology has been developed, presented and marketing in the Lexus is what is outstanding about it.
You could argue that iDrive is "newer" technology but who wants it.
One thing we might take notice of is how few supercars accumulate any kind of mileage; however Porsche is the glaring exception here. Yes, you are paying more for maintenance than you might for a Viper (although a Viper crate engine is much more costly, so not always), but you are getting a lot more use out of the car.
Why don't these other supercars rack up huge miles? Because they can't? No, I'm sure they could probably run up high miles---but because they really aren't that much fun to drive day in and day out, rain or shine, hot, cold, snow, altitude, traffic, autobahn, etc.
Nobody does it better than Porsche if what you want is high performance in a rugged but very "tame" day to day car that can master all conditions, IMO. You can beat the hell out of a Porsche.
But yeah sure if your aging C4 AWD developes a major electrical problem at 75,000 miles, you are going to bleed for that, no question. These cars are after all, pretty complex packages.
Also, Porsches boast great resale value as they age and perhaps this appeals to some buyers. People are getting $20K for 1985 models, a plentiful and ordinary car really, from an original MSRP of $32,000. A 1985 Corvette was only $24K, a third less than a 1985 Porsche (just like today!), and probably faster, too....and it's worth maybe $5,000 now.
A weak argument, true, if you are talking to people who trade every 5 years, but I find it interesting as a "market influence" on potential new Porsche buyers nonetheless.
One thing Porsche and Corvette have in common, as dissimilar as they are otherwise: their drivers rack up the miles.
At almost any Porsche or Corvette gathering you find many cars with very high miles still looking great.
You just can't beat that...
Unfortunately... Even 7 year old 911s are still $40K now... Out of my league for an extra car...
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Both can be daily drivers, commuters, long distance travelers, etc. Though I think Shifty claimed the Vette isn't. That's not true. The majority of used Corvettes and Porsches are NOT high mileage examples. But just like with the Porsche, you can find examples of high mileage used ones that are in great shape. Just like you could find ragged out examples of both...
This sets them apart from Ferrari, Maserati, Viper, Lotus, et al.
You have performance in your hip pocket any time you need it: in the meantime the car doesn't beat you up.
But without hard numbers, let's say "we don't know".
The point to be noted I think is that ANY experienced car dealer will tell you that high miles on a Vette or Viper will kill resale value dramatically, but high miles on a Porsche will not, for obvious reasons we have been talking about. Nobody will buy a 200,000 mile old Corvette unless it's dirt cheap, but people will pay good money for a clean, well-maintained 911 with high miles. I mean, even I WON'T, but most buyers don't blink. Why? Because they "think" a Porsche is a more durable car in the long run.
Which is really more to the forum topic--about Porsches business success---that Porsche has marketed its cars as durable, long lasting, long-lived, and that this perception (whether you think it true or not) drives the company toward continued sales success.
Again, it's hard to argue against people who vote with their wallets...this is a very sincere form of flattery for a car, unless of course you think they are all stupid---which I guess is possible, as history has shown that large numbers of people can be stupid all at once.
But I think there is more substance to Porsche than mere "image", and I think history backs this up.
The ONLY thing I would object to is cheaping the marque, that is, marketing cars under $30,000.
my sentiments exactly > I think SUVs , done correctly, and in direct competition to BMW and Mercedes who are trying to muscle in on Porsche territory by producing cars that are more performance oriented , are acceptable and helps the company out in the long run.
I have had a 928, 986 and 944..... and drove a 968 for a while for a friend. I like Porsche cars....but only the 928 could carry the family....the best one so far in terrms of space is the cayenne. Now wait....with all that space...did performance suffer ? NOPE....not in my opinion. I was easily doing high speeds (classified) with a BMW sedan this past weekend on a lonely stretch of I-5 ( ok....this is confidential and no police lurkers....
As to high and low miles Corvettes it might depend on where you look. At the local Vette club there are many garage queens that only make it to car shows and I even know one 10 year old car that has never been wet. No rain, no hoses. The car is wiped clean, top, bottom and crannies weekly. Not my car!
Then there are the Vette drivers who don't even know about clubs, the majority if you believe it, who just are driving a car and happy to be smiling. They put on mileage and don't really care about what the total might be. The bottom end for value on these is that they become affordable performance cars as they get older and end up going to some one who wants to fix one up and have fun. 300hp since about 1990 makes them cheap fun for in some cases less than $10k, even with lots of miles.
Is any Porsche affordable? Except of course for a 914. They seem to make pretty good track cars, especially with a small block V8.
Randy
Basically the "value" of a Corvette is in HP per $$. That is REAL value, no argument. This is traditionally the American car strength and has been for decades. Lots of room and/or power for your dollars.
But there are other forms of "value". When I examine a $40K car and then an $70K car, I can usually see where the other $30K went. A $50K Vette looks like it cost $50K and a $30K Subaru looks like it cost $30K and an $18K ______ looks about right for that price class.
So my point is that people shopping for a sports car take all these factors into account.
If car purchases were based strictly on HP per $$, everyone would buy EVOs and nothing else. Why buy that expensive Corvette for the extra $20K? (But you know why).
Corvette production per year is about 34,000 cars.
Driving experience, that's opinion. Level of quality is more debatable but I guess most would agree the Porsche is superior (and it SHOULD be - you pay for it). Styling and image sure is subjective.
The durability I question. What is specifically unreliable about a C5? The whole powertrain is proven. And relatively simple. Outside of, say, an alternator, how is a Porsche going to out-do the C5 in durability or reliability? I think the LeMans Corvettes are pretty durable :P
If you're just talking about "feeling tight despite high mileage," then that's something MOST German-brand cars have (and, imo, is unrelated to reliability or durability). It is, by far, not a Porsche-only thing. From what I understand, most older VWs, Audis and BMWs have the exact same trait. Which is most ironic, since older VWs and Audis are far from reliable. BMW is better...
Yes.... Porsche normally sells about 20K per year...but recently has been reaching more than 30k vehicles per year... THey are the smallest independent car maker in the whole world.....the next smallest car maker is BMW , with over 1 million cars per year.....that is a big difference. Porsche survived by concentrating on style and performance...with durability added in. Porsches with high mileage is a pretty normal occurence...what with over 67% of all Porsches ever built still running on our freeways .....that is the highest percentage of any car company.
What durability ? Well, ask any exotic car owner...and they will agree that a ferrari with 30,000 miles is an over the hill...old car. Most Porsches and corvettes can go many times over 30K miles and still be fine...
Corvettes do offer the best bang for the buck....and we even like the style.
So racing history is important for marketing.
Styling? Well I can see a obvious conflict there between Porsche and Corvette/Viper owners--again, I think Porsche is appealing to an international market and Corvette strictly to an American market.
As it should be.
sorry, was on vacation til Tues...so late in replying to your post:
"Lots of stuff has reached the mid to low 5 second 0-60 range. You can even get a Mustang GT that'll do the run in the low 5s for well under $30k
ahh...according to page 132 of Sept 2005 issue of Road and Track...
0-60 is 5.3 for the Mustang GT,,, cayenne does it in 5.0 sec. But the numbers don't mean much...the fact that you have to dig up a SPORT CAR to try to best a lowly Porsche SUV , speaks volumes about the technological wizardry and engineering abilities of Porsche, IMO. I smiled when I read that .... Porsche and I will take that as a compliment...
I'm not a Ford person, but that's a decent value. Frankly, I'd be suprised if a Cayenne Turbo could out-handle the Mustang, just because it has SO MUCH weight and tall center of gravity that not even $100k worth of engineering can change that fact.
from the same issue....skidpad : Mustand GT : 0.84 g
cayenne T: 0.83 g
very similar , for a car that , in your own words.. "has SO MUCH weight "
slalom : Mustang GT: 64.9 mph
cayenne T : 61.6 mph
OK...here the Mustang's less weight works out...but the Cayenne figure is almost same as the Dodge Magnum RT or the Audi A6 quattro......not bad , for a SUV....right ?
The Cayenne is impressive for an SUV, but as far as performance goes in CAR land, it's nowhere near the top. And for $100k, I could buy SEVERAL comfortable and fast cars.
I think the fact that the Cayenne , as an SUV , can outperform a lot of cars, is impressive enough....and the fact that you have to compare it to some really sporty cars to try to beat this heavy SUV....clearly it is not near the top in terms of handling...but compared to many really nice cars ( check out the mag I mentioned) .
Oh sure....but you have to have several cars to have all the abilities of ONE (1), Cayenne. Remember , it can handle a lot of MOAB trails ( offroad) ...then go on the freeways and out perform all SUV and most cars.....
Yes,,,you are right...for $100,000 , you can buy several cars....fast and comfortable.... I can even buy a motorcycle that will go 0-60 in 3 sec....but I am not sure what having several cars will mean....I only need one . And not need to change cars.... :P
I was just using it as an example. I could have also said 1992 Corvette. I have a 95 Camaro Z28 and I know what it can and can't do. What it can't do is even remotely pretend to be a luxury car.
I like corvettes....I may even get one...if the wife allows...
Yes...camaro can not pretend to be a luxury car...but it handles nice and is a good alternative to many sports cars....
sorry, was on vacation til Tues...so late in replying to your post:
"Lots of stuff has reached the mid to low 5 second 0-60 range. You can even get a Mustang GT that'll do the run in the low 5s for well under $30k
ahh...according to page 132 of Sept 2005 issue of Road and Track...
0-60 is 5.3 for the Mustang GT,,, cayenne does it in 5.0 sec. But the numbers don't mean much...the fact that you have to dig up a SPORT CAR to try to best a lowly Porsche SUV , speaks volumes about the technological wizardry and engineering abilities of Porsche, IMO. I smiled when I read that .... Porsche and I will take that as a compliment...
I'm not a Ford person, but that's a decent value. Frankly, I'd be suprised if a Cayenne Turbo could out-handle the Mustang, just because it has SO MUCH weight and tall center of gravity that not even $100k worth of engineering can change that fact.
from the same issue....skidpad : Mustand GT : 0.84 g
cayenne T: 0.83 g
very similar , for a car that , in your own words.. "has SO MUCH weight "
slalom : Mustang GT: 64.9 mph
cayenne T : 61.6 mph
OK...here the Mustang's less weight works out...but the Cayenne figure is almost same as the Dodge Magnum RT or the Audi A6 quattro......not bad , for a SUV....right ?
The Cayenne is impressive for an SUV, but as far as performance goes in CAR land, it's nowhere near the top. And for $100k, I could buy SEVERAL comfortable and fast cars.
I think the fact that the Cayenne , as an SUV , can outperform a lot of cars, is impressive enough....and the fact that you have to compare it to some really sporty cars to try to beat this heavy SUV....clearly it is not near the top in terms of handling...but compared to many really nice cars ( check out the mag I mentioned) .
Oh sure....but you have to have several cars to have all the abilities of ONE (1), Cayenne. Remember , it can handle a lot of MOAB trails ( offroad) ...then go on the freeways and out perform all SUV and most cars.....
Yes,,,you are right...for $100,000 , you can buy several cars....fast and comfortable.... I can even buy a motorcycle that will go 0-60 in 3 sec....but I am not sure what having several cars will mean....I only need one . And not need to change cars.... :P
I was just using it as an example. I could have also said 1992 Corvette. I have a 95 Camaro Z28 and I know what it can and can't do. What it can't do is even remotely pretend to be a luxury car.
I like corvettes....I may even get one...if the wife allows...
Yes...camaro can not pretend to be a luxury car...but it handles nice and is a good alternative to many sports cars....
The followon points were about two different types of Corvette owners and how they view mileage and I don't think had much to do with "again I think you are translating everything into terms of HP and price". I did mention that high mileage cars end up as low cost HP machines but that isn't too comparable to Porsche, which I acknowledge. As to Corvette production, I could have told you that.
Randy
Judged by the bottom line and by customer loyalty these companies have no equal in their respective fields.
Many customers own multiple Harleys and Porsches. Millions of people shop daily at Wal-Mart or eat at Micky Ds 5 or more times per week. All these companies have an enviably loyal customer base though their customers come from different economic levels.
You are missing the point....yes, I could get a motorcycle and go 0-60 in 3 sec...but why ? I have a go anywhere cayenne...which can pretty much go offroading, go on track, then go to the opera...all without changing cars....
I guess at some ages ....there is a price ceiling where any car above that price does not make any sense or value to you. I was there... and a Datsun B210 with 70 hp was enough. So why get any car other than a B210, or toyota Echo ?
Consider modifications. You can buy a late model Corvette, and there is the MOON out there for ways to tweak the engine, suspension, the look, etc, and a GOOD CHUNK of those options are actually affordable.
I agree...there are lots that one can do to a corvette. There is also a lot one can do to a Cayenne...though maybe not as many shops due to the limited number of Cayennes ... But Techart, CEC, Gemballa, etc , all do modifications for Cayenne.
Plus did you know the engine for Cayenne is detuned to 450 hp.....and all they have to do is tweak it using a power chip , to get 500 hp ? Of course, there are mods for 700 hp , but it involves more extensive work.
You don't have to spend $40k on a "Stage 2 Ruf Package," you know? The owner can actually fiddle with the car.
lots of Porsche owners work on their own cars. I am not sure where you are taking this.
Computer recalibration is as simple as some $500 software and a laptop. You can buy a cam for $200, put it in, recalibrate the computer yourself
$700 is a lot of money for a lot of people. Now you are saying it is simple to spend money.....BTW, Cayenne and other Porsches can be recalibrated too...using similar methods.
and be beating that Porsche Turbo (a 911 Turbo, the Cayenne was history from the showroom).
again, thanks for having to use the great corvette to try to beat the performance of the rather pedestrian Porsches, and especially the SUV........you need something substantial to try to beat them I admit... :P
and you seem to be doing this comparison seriously ???!! Imagine the headlines
THAT is a level of satisfaction that you could never achieve with a lot of supercars.
Porsches are not really supercars...they are everyday sports cars that tend to do well on city streets and the track.....just like the corvette. Lambos and Ferraris are not such cars. Plus most corvette owners also let the shop worry about the cams...
Of course, it's not for everyone, and I realize this. That also points to the fact that these guys are going to need intelligence.
seems to me you are insinuating that Porsche owners do not have intelligence ? Ha ha :mad: It does take a lot of intelligence to make that determination..I am sure.
How many Porsche owners are capable of changing out the cams, or recalibrating the PCM? I'm frankly more impressed by knowledge and experience than by a fat wallet.
I am not sure how many Porsche owners change their own cams> maybe the same percentage as the corvette owners ? ! Maybe they'd rather leave it to the professionals, maybe that is why over 67% of Porsches ever ....EVER....built are still running ?
As to knowledge and experience and money....they are related. I think knowledge is important , as is experiece. I think money is less important than the other two. That is why maybe it is important to use money to buy expertise and knowledge to fix your vehicle correctly. I am not saying that one should not fix something himself...but if he or she cannot, then leave it to the professionals.
The innovations, the quality, the knowledge and the experience that Porsche engineers put into its products, makes me step back and wonder how amazing it is that they can make such fine vehicles...and that it is even possible to make a SUV that you need to trot out sports cars to try to beat it....eh ? Also, remember that PORSCHE gets 17% of its annual revenues from consulting for other car companies...heck, even non automotive companies seek out their professional advice. It is all hush hush...because other car companies do not want car buying public to know this ..... I know for a fact that Subaru hired Porsche for consulting on its car products.... :-)
.You keep mentioning money....$$$ signs everywhere...when all this topic is about it about the quality of products of Porsche, and the company. I do admit, though, that the price of its products are not pedestrian,but they are within reach of many people who buy sports cars .
The thing that got me off exotics well before I even got my license is that I realized I would NEVER own one.
please do not short change yourself....this is America...anything is possible. You can own an exotic...there are nice used Ferraris going for $35K up to $70 K. Porsche is even better...they are everyday drivers that are also sporty. Try buying cheap real estate...most people make their money from real estate..( no charge for this advice ) :-)
Thus, I became uninterested. With the Corvette (and other "affordable" sports cars), ownership is a realistic proposition.
ownership of Porsches are also within your reach....and they are exotic to a point, because they are really good everyday drivers....not like the finicky Ferraris...
while the rest of us are talking about Porsche Turbos that, with a few options, easily exceed the $100k mark. Regardless of perfection, if I can't afford it, why should I care? That's kind of how I feel.
KEVM , I get the feeling that you are just starting out, and like exotic sports cars, you like the quality, the cache, but hate the price. All through out your post, there was always the concern about money. I understand, given that I used to be 24 years old...and at that time...I had a 1977 VW scirroco, used, and could not even think about corvettes... :-)
But while money is important and may limit what kind of vehicle we can get now...there is always the future...and who knows, you may one day find yourself in the position to buy not one, but any vehicle that you like.....
In other words, having equal brand loyalty doesn't make the products the same thing or equal. All it means is that people are responding to different things.
But all products are subject to disaster, changing preferences, etc.
And also Porsches and Harleys aren't different economic levels. Harleys are incredibly expensive for what you get. You could get twice the bike for half the money. The only "value" in the Harley is really the great resale value. You have to get rid of it to get the value in other words. :P Police departments like this actually--they can recycle the fleet and get more of their money back then if they bought Japanese bikes.
I think with a Vette you get the value up front.