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Scion MPG-Real World Numbers

1468910

Comments

  • Cruise control helps mileage for those who have the tendency to unwittingly get on and off the throttle. I have driven with people like that. But I don't see cruise control as an economy thing because it might never pay for itself. My best 42.8 mpg on the Interstate was before I had cruise control, maybe because I did not try to maintain speed up hills as cruise control would. I got cruise control for trips just so I could leave my right foot off the throttle for a long time and rest it.
  • Nice report on the cruise control addition. I have 49k on my 05 auto XB and would like to add it on to ease my 112 mile daily commute. My problem in this area is finding an independent shop to install it. The shops that I've contacted didn't want to perform the addition and could not give me the name of a shop that will install it. I guess I'll get back on the phone Monday morning and give it another go. I finally wore out the stock Goodyear Eagles with 39k on them and 3/32nds of tread left. They may have lasted another 2 months until I put the snows on but there was no wet grip left. I put on a set of Falken Ziex's and what an amazing difference. Smoother, crisper cornering and handling are the result. I also went up a size to 195 60 15. The gas mileage that I measured at fillup was 32.14 mpg. Not too bad I'd say for running at up to 80 on the interstates. The Falken's make the commute that much more comfortable and relaxing, and I recommend them to all XB owners. BTW, who has the highest odometer reading on their XB to date?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    You are correct - folks that drive like that (I call them "paddle foot") lose money at the pump and really annoy me on the road. Ever have the same car pass you 10-15 times on one trip? They keep slowing down, you pass them, then they speed back up, etc, etc.

    While it can help those folks with MPGs what the "hypermilers" do is to NOT try to hold a steady speed - they hold a steady throttle position so that they slow down up a hill (sometimes a LOT) and coast down the hills. You don't want to be in traffic with them either, since to maximize MPGs they can be really slow up the hill and really fast down it. They also will draft off of trucks to save gas. They can report some fantastic mileage, but you don't want to be on the road with them either :D

    Dennis
  • aathertonaatherton Posts: 617
    "... My problem in this area is finding an independent shop to install it. The shops that I've contacted didn't want to perform the addition and could not give me the name of a shop that will install it. I guess I'll get back on the phone Monday morning and give it another go..."

    I ordered my cruise control from AllScion:
    http://www.allscion.com/cruisecontrol.html
    The cruise control kits are made by Rostra, who wholesales them to a big automotive distributor. AllScion (and competitor M&R) send your order to the distributor who ships directly to you. AllScion was very good about notifiying me when my order was shipped and answering a few questions.
    During shipment AllScion contacts Rostra, the mfr, and locates the nearest installer to you, and emails you.
    AllScion first gave me the name of a place in a city 80 miles away, and when I checked the company through the BBB it was unsatisfactory. I asked for a place in my city, and they came back with an excellent company that had done 75 Scion cruise control installations in the past 3 years for the 3 dealers in town. And they were members of BBB with an excellent record. They installed the cruise control for $150, using 2 people in an hour while I waited.
  • aathertonaatherton Posts: 617
    "... what the "hypermilers" do is to NOT try to hold a steady speed - they hold a steady throttle position so that they slow down up a hill (sometimes a LOT) and coast down the hills. You don't want to be in traffic with them either, since to maximize MPGs they can be really slow up the hill and really fast down it. They also will draft off of trucks to save gas. They can report some fantastic mileage, but you don't want to be on the road with them either..."

    I sometimes get in line with a truck that doesn't go over the speed limit. Its varying speeds in hilly country are good for max economy in the xB, without bothering other cars, and I can stay with it downhill.

    Drafting is not good, as you have to get extremely close. The trucker can't see you, you can't tell when he might suddenly slow, and you get the grit that is kicked up whenever the trailer wheels weave out of the swept track. You can't feel it in a car, but on a motorcycle there is a lot of side buffeting behind a truck until you get within about 2 carlengths, when the sudden lack of wind resistance feels like a push from behind and you have to back off the throttle. If the temperature is chilly, you can also feel the warmth from the big engine ahead.
  • Thanks for the allscion info on the cruise control unit. I'm off on Monday and I'll check them out in the morning after I change the XB's oil. Walmart had fully synthetic Penzoil on sale for 17 bucks for the 5 quart size. Mobil 1 was $22.97 for the same size and probably same oil. Why is it that synthetic oil prices are rising? They don't contain petroleum but have risen with the price of gas and regular oil.
  • aathertonaatherton Posts: 617
    Since July Pep Boys has had Pennzoil Platinum (full synthetic) on sale for $2/quart, down from almost $6/quart. They put a store coupon in the paper that reduces what you pay at the counter, then you send the receipt to Pep Boys rebate center and they issue a rebate check. I have bought a 6-pack in July, August, September and now have a coupon for October.
    Pennzoil differentiates their oil from other synthetics by saying it has "time-released molecules"...
    http://www.pennzoil.com/products/motor_oil/platinum.html
  • My XB just cracked the 54000 mile barrier. The mileage for the last tank was 32.7 mpg in mostly crazed commuting combined with the standard Wash.,DC metro stop and go crud. Highway speeds up to 80 mph for extended periods of open road (you have to make time when you can) with no issues. The 195 60 15 Falken's seem to lower the mpg by about 1.5 mpg compared with the OEM Goodyear 185 60 15's, but the ride quality and handling are better. In another month I'll put the 4 snow tires back on anyway.
  • How does your xb have cruise control? I thought it was NOT available??
  • OOOPS! PLease ignore #265. I found my answer in the previous messages.
  • Bought an Xa in April. Averaged around 29 around town, now down to 24. Best highway was 34, now 28. Dealer says nothing he can do. It seems like some get great mileage and others don't. Dealer says unless engine light on don't bother bringing it in. After reading these posts, it seems that there is a problem for the Scion but not all Scions.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    Hmmm...that's about the worst I ever heard. Tell me, do you keep the heater control on the defrost setting quite a bit? Have you checked your tire pressure?

    is this a stickshift or automatic?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Did you mean 5,400 miles or 54,000 miles?

    If 54,000:

    At what point did you replace the OEM tires? What did you put on? Checked the tire pressures lately? Changed the air filter?

    Often the car makers pick the OEM tires based on low rolling resistance and low noise (makes for good economy numbers and better test drives). A better or different replacement tire may hurt mileage a bit, but properly inflated even the worst rolling tire would not drop it that much.

    If 5,400:

    Check the tire pressures and note how you are driving the car. If the pressures are OK and you are not driving around at wide-open-throttle I would say you have a problem.

    Most cars get better mileage as they age and wear in, up to a point.

    Dennis
  • There is no problem. The cars are all the same, but the drivers and the driving conditions are different. The mpg is highly responsive to how and where you drive. I calculate the mpg at each filling, so I have a good idea of what driving and what conditions cause each mpg.

    I am generally a gentle driver, but once took the car on a race track, so with my manual xB I have seen as high as 42 and as low as 24. Many trips were 37. Last summer it usually got 34 around the city, but now with winter it has fallen below 30.
    I am not tempted to complain to the dealer because I know:
    1. Cold starts begin with the engine at 30F instead of 80F. I can see temperatures on my ScanGuage.
    2. It takes twice the distance to get the blue light off (137F), meanwhile the engine must run rich.
    3. On short multi-errand hops the engine never reaches its operating temperature (186F) before I stop. All morning can be spent never getting over 160F.
    4. I have given up trying to get good mpg in winter, and am using the throttle for more fun, which further reduces mpg.
  • Sorry to hear about your lower gas mileage. Have you tried a fuel system cleaner? I throw one in every 7k miles. Try to vary where you buy gas. Some oil companies are adding ethynol to their mix. Ethynol will lower mileage on most cars. Also the oil companies send their famous "winter blend" gas out to states in the northern climates that is filled with a host of chemical additives. My father-in-laws Chrysler runs poorly all winter long on the stuff and his "check engine" light comes on until spring, and has occurred for the last 5 years with his car.
    Also, I run synthetic oil in mine and run my tire pressures at 32-34 psi. Good luck.
  • My '05 XB has 54,000 yes 54,000 miles on it. The OEM Goodyear's lasted about 34,000 miles before I replaced them. I'm not sure of the total miles because I run 4 dedicated snows in the winter and did not check the miles with I made the swap. They still had tread left but were getting a little "squirrely" in wet conditions.

    I replaced the OEM's with Falken ZX 512's in 195 60 15 size. The wider tire slightly lowers the MPG but really shines in the grip, ride, and handling areas. I run them at 32-34 psi. They have good reviews from both Tirerack.com and Consumer Reports. I also run synthetic oil and change the air filter every 10,000 miles.
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    The 195 60 15 Falken's seem to lower the mpg by about 1.5 mpg compared with the OEM Goodyear 185 60 15's,

    You may be getting about the same mileage. If the larger tires are larger in circumference, they will travel a little farther with each revolution. The odometer and speedometer are most likely measuring speed by the revolution of standard size tires. This is probably measured at the transmission output shaft. The measuring device has no idea what size tire you are running.

    Example if std tires are showing 50 mph at a given rpm, the larger tires will show the same speed at the same rpm. Even though they are actually rolling a bit farther.

    NOTE: You will also be going faster than indicated by your speedometer.

    You can get a rough idea by checking your odometer against say 10 miles of mile markers. Sixty mph equals a mile a minute. Chances are good that if you run exactly 60 mph for the 10 miles you will cover the distance in less than 10 minutes and show 9+ miles driven instead of 10 miles.

    Although the mile markers may be off a few feet, 10 miles worth will give you a good indicator.

    Kip
  • Thanks Kip for the info and you must be psychic. My neighbor and I discussed the issue and he provided the exact info that you did in your post!! I calculate every tank and I thought it may be due to the wider tires and less rolling resistance of the Falkens. My neighbor said I may be getting the same mpg but the speedo is off due to wider tires. But with the colder weather here in the DC area my mileage has been down to just a shade over 30 mpg. I believe the fuel additives are to blame coupled with the colder weather. I don't know the ethynol content of the fuel in this area but I know several drivers who are having the same issues. Today, on my commute the weather is warm (64 degrees) and my mileage seems to be higher. I'll post on my mpg when I fill up.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    Here's a tire calculator that will tell you exactly how much off your speedo might be. If this "new" version doesn't show up on your screen, click on "old version"

    http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

    MrShiftright
    Host
  • Thanks Host. The old version of the calculator worked for me. I pasted into my favorites for future reference. According to the calculator, when the speedo shows 60 mph, I'm really ay 61 mph. I'll have to figure out the drop in mileage for the new, wider tires.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    Most experts recommend that you don't change your speed deviation by more than 3%, so you're okay at 61 mph. That's only 1.6% more or less.
  • The warmer weather affected my mpg in a positive way. I got 33 mpg for this tank. Up 3 mpg from the last tank. I switched brands on this tank to BP/Amoco so I'm not sure how much effect this had. But my XB traditionally does better in warmer weather.

    Has anyone seen actual photos of the new XB? All I've seen are concept drawings. Also what are the specs as far as engine? I've heard that the 1.8 engine from the Matrix is being used.
  • joesbarjoesbar Posts: 20
    First fill-up; 25 mpg city:( 2006 xB, auto. The question is, will the mpg get better as time goes on? Seems on the second fill-up I'm still getting about 60-ish with each quarter of a tank.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    It should get better. Mine (xA, same engine) got better and better until about 15,000 miles. Now it has levelled off reliabily at between 33-35 mpg. I think higher than 35 mpg is only for slower drivers without AC.

    People have to remember that to calculate gas mileage reliably you really need to do it for a couple of months to get the average. It's easy to make fill-up mistakes plus or minus and throw the mileage off by quite a bit.
  • The mpg on my '05 Thundercloud Metallic XB auto was 29 on the 1st tank and steadliy moved up to 33-34 after that. With the ehtynol additives in the fuel this year my mpg seems to bounce between 30 and 33. I'm also due for the 60K service soon so the mpg may improve after that. I tend to fill my XB's tank all the way up to the neck because of my long commute. Generally, after the 1st quarter tank my fuel gauge reads 80-ish.
  • joesbarjoesbar Posts: 20
    Not sure how "filling it up" farther would help on MPG, I've noticed this theme on many threads. All that means is you'd have more gas but at the same time go FARTHER thereby reducing any advantage when you divide one into the other. Using generic numbers, to me, it seems like people here think it's better to divide 12 into 24 than 6 into 12, it's still "2".

    Can someone explain the "topping off" rational?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    I think he just means that since has such a long commute he makes sure his tank is completely full when he stops. I guess he stops plenty enough and if he always stopped at the first kick off then he may have to stop sooner.

    MPG is an average, if you fill up and drive until near empty, then fill up again you get the average MPG for that tank - say 28 mpg. If you stopped at 3/4 or 1/2 tank your numbers may vary quote a bit depending on the the driving you did right before you stopped - say 26 mpg to 30 mpg. No matter when you fill or how often you can average it out over a longer period and get the same average MPG.

    I hate stopping, so I tend to drive until I have to stop. I have ScanGaugeII gauges in the cars now which so me mile to empty a LOT better than the gas gauges do. The exception is my case is a local station offers a discount on premium on Wednesday. So if I am driving one of the premium drinking cars on a Wednesday I may stop in a top off :D

    Dennis
  • You are correct in the statement that I do not tend to stop for fuel until I'm down almost to the warning light, which is usually the last leg of my 3rd day of commuting. I don't like to stop while doing 112 round trip miles daily. I feel that by topping off the tank, I have extra fuel for unforeseen traffic issues and it ensures that I fill the tank to it's capacity every time.

    I don't go by the pop-off switch on the pump, as there are several variables that affect its operation. Many people believe that once the pump switch kicks off the tank is full. There have been several posts on this site in the past of owners complaining that they're getting less than 250 miles out of a tank of fuel.

    Topping off the tank seems to be the only means of determing that your tank is actually filled to capacity and determining the true avg. mpg of each tank.
  • Wife's xB is about 18 months old and averages 30 MPG, has gone as low as 27 but as high as 33.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    It is my impression after driving my own xA and talking to owners of As and Bs, that once you start driving at 70 mph or over that, the gas mileage really drops off significantly.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    I assume when you typed grape you meant gripe?

    She is complaining about averaging 30mpg? EPA MPG on the xB is 30/34 mpg with an auto and the CR test reported 23/37mpg with an average of 30mpg. Sounds like she is getting the average number. As was mentioned, driving a bit slower on the freeway/Interstate can net an easy increase in fuel mileage - but who wants to go slow :D

    Dennis
  • aathertonaatherton Posts: 617
    "... I do not tend to stop for fuel until I'm down almost to the warning light, which is usually the last leg of my 3rd day of commuting... by topping off the tank, I have extra fuel for unforeseen traffic issues..."

    You would be better prepared for unforeseen traffic issues if you refueled at 1/2 or at least 1/4 tank.

    "I don't go by the pop-off switch on the pump..."

    By topping off, you risk getting gas into the vent for vapor recovery system, which taps into the filler neck just below the gas cap. This could foul the emissions system and cause an error code. For this reason, many owners manuals recommend against topping off.

    My manual xB gets routinely gets 33 mpg in daily driving, I fill up with 8 gallons long before the light comes on, and am satisfied with the resulting 250+ miles between gas stops.
  • You are correct. Do not top off your fuel tank. Liquid gasoline in the vapor recovery system = big trouble.
  • An xB called a grape is dark blue.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Or his wife could have a gripe about her xB :D

    I call mine "Chief" or "Big Chief" which is short for "Big Chief Thundercloud". A running joke between my daughter and I that started when she looked at the xB for herself (she ended up with a new Civic).

    Dennis
  • The xA should EASILY get over 40mpg highway. I owned a 86 Escort 4sp, no options, always 45mpg highway. (Not that the Escort even approached the xA's polish.) However, I kept it at 60mph........as the host wisely noted here, exceeding 70mph or so really cuts the mileage. I think the xA was designed for optimum efficiency at 60mph. (Isn't Japan's highway speed limit even less than that?) Cruising faster than that doesn't strain the engine, but it does increase revs big-time.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    I've queried quite a few xA owners and nobody gets over 40 mpg... I mean folks who carefully record their mileage over time. Once on a fluke I got 39 mpg meandering all day in 5th gear at 45 mph on country roads with no stops.

    I suppose you could get into the "hypermiler" mentality and achieve this but for normal use on normal road conditions, I don't think 40 mpg is xA's normal territory. It's rare for a car to exceed its upper EPA estimates anyway.

    But yeah, you COULD squeeze 40 mpg but it's not easy IMO.

    So far the people I'm in touch with report identical average mileage to mine---that's 33-35 mpg over a year's time or so.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    I don't know that you could predict what mileage an xA would return based on an 86 Escort :D . Using that logic the EPA could skip all those tests and just predict what a car would return without testing it. If they did, THEY might be more accurate than they are now, however.

    The 60mph thing is not that it was "designed" to for the most part, but just simple math and science. The faster you drive the more power is required to maintain the speed due to wind resistance. But it is not a linear formula - see formula here. As is noted in the text, it requires 8x the power to drive 2x the speed. So going 50mph rather than 60mph would save more than simple math would indicate, and going 70mph rather than 60mph would use more than simple math would indicate. I also costs to get up to that speed - more than it does to just maintain it. The you factor in terrain - you get to coast down but have to power up hills. Most of us set the cruise at a speed thinking we get the best mileage that way - that is not true. We do get better than if we slowed down and speed back up due to inattention to our speed, but not as good a mileage as hypermilers due when they allow the car to slow down when they go up a hill, then speed back up once they crest it (more of a constant throttle driving than constant speed). Of course, you don't want to be in traffic with someone driving like this, no matter how much they are saving.

    The amount of power needed and fuel burned varies a lot depending (I would think) mostly on the drag coefficient of the car and the efficiency of the powertrain. My RX-8 would seem to have a nice, low drag coefficient but has a horribly inefficient powertrain. So driving a constant 60mph on a flat road my instantaneous MPG (as shown by an SGII) is around 20mpg. Drive 70mph and, of course, it drops further. Drive on a normal road with the cruise set and it may drop to 10mpg going up a modest hill then jump up to 30-40mpg on the way down.

    There is a most efficient engine RPM that factors into this as well - this would be the "designed to" run you mention. In airplanes they have a best cruising speed - the speed at which the engine(s) uses the least fuel. If due to design choices in the engine and transmission your car is most efficient at some speed, then driving faster than that speed would make an even more dramatic drop in mileage occur becuase you are not only having to overcome more wind resistance on use more power, you are now operating your powertrain at an RPM at which it is not most efficient.

    While out riding one of my motorcycles I got stuck behind a LEO for many, many miles (limited access parkway and he was going to the end, same as me). So I had to ride 40-45mph constant the entire time. When I filled up I was amazed by the MPGs I got for that tank. I was bored to tears driving a constant, slow speed but that clearly returns MUCH better MPGs than my normal riding style :D

    Recently there was a news story (during the $3 a gallon gas days) about weight and MPGs. Seems if we all went on a diet we could save at the pump. So if I weigh 300 lbs and drive around with my car laden with stuff and you weigh 150 lbs and only carry what you need then if we drove the same car in the same style you would always best me in MPGs.

    So a lot goes into it, but in my case it is mostly driving style. Like on the bike, I just don't like driving in a hypermile kind of way. In my xB this means I get better mileage than I do in the RX-8, but would not be likely to get as good as others may post. I understand and accept that - and I have to pay the price for it at the pump :cry:

    Dennis
  • 12 vehicles and 29 years of driving and not 1 vehicle has had problems with the fuel in the vapor return line due to topping off the tank. Frankly, I have not experienced the issue.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    well it's dangerous if nothing else. All you'd need is one bad experience. I suppose "rounding up" to the nearest zero might be okay but I see people compulsively trying to squeeze every drop into their tanks and it makes me nervous.
  • I just bought an '06 xA abouta month ago and after three tank fills, I'm only averaging 25-26 mpg. How can this be right? I'm not hard on the gas and drive about 70% of the time on the hwy. Where do the 31 city/ 37 hwy come from? Can I go back to my dealership with this problem? False advertising? Somebody help me figure this out- The gas mileage was really the main reason why I bought this tiny car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    Hmmm....that's pretty weird. Do you use your defroster a lot while driving (that turns on the AC you know)....the mileage should get better as you drive....you obviously can't have more than 1000 miles on the car...I do remember my first tank was only 29 mpg or so, now I regularly average 33-35.

    I'd say that if it doesn't improve by 2,500--3,000 miles you have a problem of some kind.

    How's tire pressure? Try between 32-35 psi.

    What's your rpm reading at 60 mph?
  • Either something is wrong with the car, or your driving habits are not the best for economy.
    I have a manual 2006 xB and have kept a spreadsheet of each fillup since new. At 10,000 miles last Fall the overall average was 35 mpg. There were two tanks of 42 mpg holding steady 60 on Interstate trips, and two tanks of 37 mpg holding 55 on curvy hilly rural back road trips.
    In winter now the mileage has dropped to 30 mpg, with frigid cold starts in the AM, then short hops where the engine does not reach normal temperature on the ScanGuage, and engine temp dropping to 75F between between hops.
    I upshift at 2000 rpm, accelerate gently, cruise at 45 mph in 5th as much as possible, and don't go over 65 mph if possible.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    I drive my xA really fast and really hard all the time and I never get worse than 30 mpg no matter how bad I am.
  • I just bought the car and it had 12 k on it already. It's an automatic if that makes any difference and it's been in the teens here the past couple weeks. Maybe that is playing itno it. I do a lot of short trips too so your idea about the engine reaching efficient temp. makes sense. I checked the tires and they were down at 22 PSI so I filled them up to 39. Is that too much? Thanks for the input!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    39 is too much....35 would be a good experiment. If your tires were down to 22 psi that will certainly hurt fuel mileage, and so will low engine temperatures. I bet the inflated tires will boost your mileage 10% at least. You might consider synthetic oil for another 1-3% boost in mileage.
  • I bought an automatic 2006 Scion Xa last fall; it has around 3500 miles on it. It's "supposed" to get 31/38 mpg. In fact, it averages 27, with a range of 24.x when it's cold out or I have passengers w/ luggage, to 29-30 mpg if I take a long trip (ONCE I got 30.1 mpg; twice I got 29.x.)

    My friend bought the same model/year and gets 27-28 mpg. We're both in the SF Bay Area, and self-employed, which means we are almost never in stop-and-go commute traffic.

    I wouldn't have even take the Scion for a test drive if I'd known the mileage claims were bogus. I'd rented / borrowed other cars in its class which gave me 30-32 combined city/fwy mileage. I'm very disappointed -- no, more than disappointed: I'm ANGRY!

    Here's a link to a newspaper article that mentions (near the end) the way Toyota fudges its mileage claims: http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/nauman/2007/01/09/detroit-07-mpg-confusion/
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    You probably have the automatic, right?

    Well the mileage should get better by about 10,000 miles. Also you could test your tire inflation, and after your first oil change at 5K you could go to synthetic oil. If you can get up to 32 average mpg, that's about as good as it gets with an automatic xA.
  • I brought mine back to the dealership and told them straight up (after they did their "tests") that what they sold me was a car under false pretenses. A sub compact getting 23.5 is a joke. They ummm and ahhed a bit and gave me the same old "You should try this . . " but I already had done all they said. The pre owned manager took my car back for what I bought it for, this 6 weeks after buying it. Kind of surprised me. In turn, he gave me a Yaris S sedan for invoice. Even if it gets the same mileage, which it shouldn't, it's defiently "more" car for only $9 more a month. This is Toyota's last chance for me. I only like honest companies no matter what they're selling.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    23.5? That IS shockingly bad mileage.
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