An average F-150 will not go over 200,000 miles without rebuilding it, no matter how much you baby it. That's common knowledge and not from a magazine. My Dad's F-250 didn't last over 120K, My brother's explorer lost the tranny @70K, My hangliding buddy's F-150 needed a rebuild @90K, etc. Out of the hundreds of people I've been associated with in the military, not one has a F-150 with more than 200K, without a rebuild. On the other hand I know dozens of the Toyota truck owners with more than 200K. So I'm going on my own experience and not by any magazine article. If you are confident that your F-150 will go 200K then why would you sell it @ 60-80K and lose money buying new one? If you find a co-located Ford/Toyota dealer, ask them about longevity and resale value. They'll tell you to buy the Toyota if you plan on keeping it awhile.
daggett No, I didn't mean the half tons could haul 10,000. My point is the big have proven they are capable far beyond the requirements of the half ton. so the half ton truck is an 'easy' challenge. despite all of Toyotas great accomplishments, they haven't done that.
Thus, they don't have the engineering staff or practices in place that know how to do that. Now thats not always bad! 'Outside the box' can be better sometimes. But it always puts engineering at a major disadvantage when you've never done something that your competitors have done for a long time.
Geez, After working on bids and inspections all day, I come back to the office and find all of these posts!
rwellbaum, I hear your question and here is the answer: What cracks? The only place I've heard of this problem is at this site. I haven't heard anyone personally that has it. (Remember, I own a roofing firm so I actually know guys that work their trucks) Dashboard rattles? Oh come on! What's next? Are you going to make up how who feel there is wasted space between the headlamp and grille? LOL! Everything you bring up as "obvious advantages" are PURELY SUBJECTIVE. You ramble on like a bad moto-journalist. Seriously......Do you have any REAL advantages to share with us? While you think of a good evasive answer, I'm going to count how many of my employees with Tacomas that have had blown head-gaskets......a problem far worse than some alleged crack in the door......
I personally never go into Tundra-exclusive site (or Chevy for that matter). The Tundra seems like a decent truck and I agree that there are more important things in life to worry about (like my motorcycles!) My only point is that the comparisons are actually quite close between these trucks. I see no "obvious advantages" by either one. The reliability factor has to be in favor of Ford since they have actually made half-tons for years and Toyota is new to the game. Yes, their other models seem to do well but a full-size truck is not a Corrola.
Corolla does not compete with Aspire. It used to compete with Escort, which I think was a decent entry level transportation vehicle contrary to rwell's whining, it now competes with the Focus which a lot of publications rate higher than the Toy.
The Camry, not the Avalon(which is a stretched $30,000 Camry) competes with the Taurus.
Toyota Starlets have un-rebuildable carbs that cost more then the car is worth; late 80's Toyotas literally rust to the ground(at least the motor still runs good) There is a head gasket issue.
YES FORD GM AND CHRYSLER HAVE THEIR PROBLEMS AND FAULTS. BUT STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE THAT TOYOTAS ARE FLAWLESS AND BECAUSE IT'S A TOYOTA IT'S AUTOMATICALLY BETTER THEN EVERY MAKE IN THE SAME CLASS.
tp4unc - I agree that the posts get a little ridiculous, but don't you see a little irony when you post here to say stop posting and drive.
cdean - like I said only time will tell. Obviously I believe that Toyota has pulled it off. Another piece of evidence that suggests such is the T100. Although a miserable failure as far as sales, I've heard a lot of good reliability reports.
rocles - can't add much to what has been posted. It was a tough decision for me to chose between the F150 and the Tundra. I obviously feel that the reliability factor is not in Fords favor, but what the heck do I know.
Farewell guys and have fun with your pickups! I bet I'll enjoy the Tundra.
Ok, all we need to do is have Roc, pony up about 250K for say 10 Tundras, maybe he could get a fleet deal for 200K or something. Work them side by side with his Ford and GMs for say Four years. At the end of those four years we do a nice objective analysis.
Ok so Roc, probably can't come up with 250K that easily, sorry we can't all be like me. Just kidding. I wish. Anyway the point is wouldn't be nice to be able to just take 10 or 15 trucks from every manufacturer, put them in the same work environment, Roofing, Oil, Steel, Farming whatever, and wait the 4 or so years to find out which sample really does seem to be the best.
Sure would make my future buying decisions easier. Any Ford makes a good truck. They must I mean they sold almost a million of them last year. I love my Toyota. I did not like the Fords, I just don't like that 5.4 engine. Don't ask me why, it is a great engine, for some reason it just doesn't fit me. A little to harsh and labored sounding I guess. Purely subjective I know. There is no denying GM has had alot of first year bugs. More than there share and from my research much more then Tundra's. I have owned a Dodge and didn't love it. Again subjective. I bought my Tundra because it fits all my needs. Depending on the day of the week, it will work like a beast, run like sports car, cruise almost like a Lexus or act as my Sport UTE ok a sport UTE for Leprecauns, I agree the back seat is a bit small but no worse then the Ford.
I love my Tundra, best truck I have ever owned. I am still very young or I like to think very young but I have had the priviledge of owning GM and Dodge and my Toyota. All were excellent trucks to me. My Tundra is leaps and bounds ahead in fit and finish and the powertrain is superior to anything Dodge offers. Ford makes great trucks. Just not great trucks for me. GM makes great powertrains, just can't seem to get the quality control down these past couple of years.
Everybody go out and drive your trucks whether you drive em for work of for play, if you personally had to pay for em I hope you have fun whatever you are doing, because if you don't like what you payed for then you did get the inferior truck, at least inferior to you and thats all that counts.
So Roc how about that side by side test. Maybe we could get the manufacturers and Consumer reports to kick in a little. Probably about 27.50 but it all helps.
cdean: You're saying that just because Toyota's first truck happened to be a 1/2 ton means "(Thus,) they don't have the engineering staff or practices in place that know how" to build larger trucks? Did it occur to you that maybe Toyota was just interested in selling trucks and the 1/2 ton market is leaps and bounds larger than the 3/4 ton? Also, did you know that Toyota actually has a heavy truck division? Most of their heavy trucks are in service over seas. I'm not trying to dis-credit what you are saying: just trying to clarify.
Also, 'the 100% of fleet sales for the industry': WELL DUHHH! The Tundra was just introduced last year, and didn't really get into dealerships until late summer. Even at that, you still (usually) have to wait if you want one. Considering that fleet bidding take a few months, and the fact that most fleet bidders don't want to wait for their vehciles, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!!. Sure it will be impossible for Toyota to make a dent into such a strong hold. But only time will tell if Toyota can break into fleet sales. It ain't going to happen over night.
Rocles is absolutely right that Quality is purely subjectives. Hey, somebody out there bought Yugo's (Okay, some of you may be too young to remember a Yugo, but trust me). Discussions about quality and reliability is like discussing religion (no don't go there): it's purely personal. A rattling dash may drive some people nuts, versus another person may not even notice.
pcheng you are misunderstanding my points. My point about fleet %s is that the Big 3 are proven and reliable in a that work environment. and toyota is not. i was refuting someone elses claims of cross board Toyota superiority. Again, not saying Toyotas bad, just saying Big are pretty good.
you've also misunderstood my point about the Toyotas being a rookie in the half tons. i know toyota makes heavy heavy duties, but thats still not the same class. the big 3 make 1/2, 3/4, 1, and 1 1/2 ton trucks. these are all the same 'size' and class of truck. their engineering is very experienced with the issues in this class of truck. Toyota is not.
Toyota is like saying company A is used to building one-story buildings, and now company A wants to build a two story building. there going go have to learn how.
Dagget, I believe you stated that since Tundra has 7100 lb towing, it's roughly in same class as F150 which my recollection is about 8500. I assume this means if you had a 7100 pound trailer, you would not hesitate to pull it with your Toyota since an F150 can also easily pull this load. But what if you had a 8000 pound trailer to pull? If Tundra can do it, so can Tacoma since both have same axle? Doesn't matter your answer, because ratings do count. I believe it was you who migrated from a SUV to pickup because it would do the same job for you. That doesn't qualify as an expert opinion when comparing F150 to Tundra on subject of capacity. Agreed with many of your other points, though.
Pcheng, You take your hat off to Rwellbaum? If you had to sit at the same table like his family members, the ones who actually ARE mechanical engineers, military vets etc., and watch him talk and chew food at the same time, you'd drive a Ford too!
I hadn't intended posting anymore, but since you were kind enough to address me I'll ramble a bit...
The key word is roughly. If I had a 7000 lb trailer to tow frequently, I would NOT tow it with a Tundra. If I had a load near the capacity of the F150, I wouldn't buy it either.
So that leaves a marginal range of payload that I would trust with the F150 and not the Tundra. Key word - marginal. For the vast majority of users, either the Tundra is just as good or it's a 3/4 ton - super duty etc.
Personally, I'm not real fond of towing at 100% capacity - at least not if you want a truck that's gonna last.
I am not switching from a SUV. And I most certainly do NOT consider my opinion to be expert!!!! If I were an expert, why would I be wasting my time posting at Edmunds? I'm just sharing my relatively worthless opinions. For all I know I could be cursing Toyota violently in 6 months and wishing for that F150 I liked so much.
As a side note: I couldn't deal with a SUV, too many muddy decoys, wet dogs, chest waders, dead animals, 7 foot fishing rods, buckets of bait etc. I currently own a 98 Dakota with the V8 (which I happen to love). I'm picking up the Tundra tonight (not without apprehension). I'm getting the Tundra cause we're family-bound and I need backseats for my future offspring.
If I could fit a horizontal style child seat in the Dakota, I wouldn't be dropping $26,765 in about 4 hours. The Dakota (for those interested) has been really great. I love the 318 matched with that truck and I get up to 19 mpg on the highway. No real problems and I have 52K miles, original tires original brakes - although they won't last the summer for whomever.
That's it, I'm done, I'm picking up the pick-up, my decisions been made. Have fun everyone. If you see me and my Tundra broken down on the side of the road, don't laugh too hard, I am really upset. If I see you and your F150 broken down I'll be sure to stop and help (no, really I will
You raise the funds and I'll be a guinea pig for anybody and any subject! I'm serious! Years ago Gardner Asphalt was trying to crack the flat-roof market and offered my firm free goods if they could use our name and pictures in the ad! Hell, We still use the products. Toyota can call me anyday!!
tp4unc, I know....I was feeling rather ornery.... LOL!
daggett and pcheng, I like you guys. No flames and attitude--that's how it should be at this site when disagreements are discussed. My problem is that I tend to return fire when doused in flames myself.....
cdean and Quad, Good points as always from you guys...keep it up.
I have a feeling rwellbaum's brain exploded while examining the "wasted space" between the grille and bumper on the Ford......LOL!
About the truck sales, don't expect to see the Tundra beat any of the other ones anytime soon. They have to build about a dozen factories before they can do that. The most they can make is 100 or 150,000, so there's no way they can outsell the others. Just a thought. About the towing, I don't know anyone that tows a 7,000 pound trailer with them everywhere they go, including work. All I need a truck to do is occasionally pull a trailer, and all other times just get me to where I want to go, and haul stuff in the box at times also.
What can I say...I own an F150 now. I really like it. It fits me. I'm 6'1", 225 lbs, and I can't cram myself into that toyota. I really liked it but full size it's not. I have the same problem with the similar sized Dakota. Sure it's probably a fine truck, but it costs as much or more than a similar F150. I've always been a Chevy guy, but these Fords are really nice. I hauled some stuff for my mom and she was amazed how carlike it was. In fact, she went out and bought one too. I agree that the Toyota motors are great, but you can't enjoy a truck if you can't fit inside it to drive! If Toyota wanted to be a competitor to the F150 (or silverado or ram for that matter) it needs to be BIGGER. There's no mileage savings with the Tundra, so make it big. For all Toyota engineers...just when you think it's big...make it bigger!
I don't necessarily disagree with you. In fact if GMC would have actually sold a truck with their alleged 4th door, I might be driving one too. Oh well, too late now.
Anyway, I'm not a really big guy (~5'7" 150). And I fit into the Tundra better. When I sat in the GMC I felt like the seats were made for people w/ (for lack of a better description) bigger butts than mine. I'm not saying that people who own GMC's have large tailgates, it just didn't fit me. Whereas the Tundra does. My buddy who is much bigger than I 6'1" +220 looks unconfortable in my Tundra, although he swears he isn't.
So, value is very subjective. I don't care how much money I'd save, if I had to chase my 3 year old across the cab just because it didn't have a 4th door.
We spend a lot of effort determining the best truck for our money and needs. Taking a step back, we have much to be thankful for. The competition between GM, Ford, Toyota and Chrysler is good for all of us. The trucks (from all manufacturers) keep getting better and better.
Although I love my F350 crew cab, If I were considering half tons, I would consider the Silverados. My best friend has one and it pulls, rides and drives very well. About two years ago I rented an F150 4x4 Supercab and was impressed by it's highway manners. The Toyota is probably a fine driving truck, but not enough capacity or safety for my taste. Plus there's the non-American engineering thing. We have better trucks to choose from and more choices. I guess that's a result of an increasing market size.
You are right about towing 7,000 pounds. With most 1/2 ton trucks it requires a weight distributing hitch. Someone else can explain what this is better than me, but the plain fact is most people never use (or have heard of) this kind of a hitch. The practical towing capacity of most 1/2 ton trucks is 5,000 pounds. If you don't need/want the extra room of a Silverado, Ford or Ram and can get by without a choice of V8 engines, rear end gear ratios, and all the other options that are available and are willing to pay the extra $$ the Tundra would be a good choice. I almost bought one myself.
I know what the tow rating is - per the book. But in order to tow that much you need to have a weight distributing hitch -at least that is what the manual says. It transfers the weight over the whole truck frame, which takes some weight off the rear axle. This is a factor in weight of trailer and tongue weight. How many trailers (including boats) do you see with this special hitch. I think less than 1%. Most people that plan to tow that much get the 3/4 ton or larger truck.
Tundra Limited 4x4 and it's perfect for me. I test drove a F-150 ext. cab, it was very nice but it was just too big for me. My truck definitely is not bigger that any of the Big 3, but it's just as good if not better. It all depends on your needs. Actually, the Tundra is more than I need because I do "ZERO" towing. I mostly will use it for yard duty and an occasional excursion off-road to go surf fishing.
So the Tundra is perfect for me and know one can convince me otherwise. Just get what you need and want...who cares? You have to live with it not anyone else.
Enjoy your trucks because they are all great trucks that can fit most anyone's needs.
I'm sorry to say I haven't been around because of a tragedy. I just got back from attending the funeral for my 18 year old nephew. He unfastened his seat belt to get control over his dog when his friend, looking at the dog, drove off the rode. BTW, his friend is alive with only scraps and bruises, but a lifetime of guilt. I've seen to many people driving with little kids loose in the car. If anyone reading this is guilty of that...STOP, before it's too late. The flying season is here so...farewell, hopefully I'll post again this fall.
Rocles, previously you mentioned that you had only heard of the door cracks on this site. Well, I'm 95% certain to buy an F-150, but I'm very anxious about the proven cracking occuring on the doors. Check out www.f150online.com for an entire article on the cracks, with pictures. I have looked at random trucks parked on the street and found the crack once I knew where to look. Still, I'll be saving so much money with the F-150 vs. the Tundra (fleet discounts) I'm willing to roll the dice on the door cracks. After all, with the Tundra I'd be rolling the dice on the vibration issue, even if the odds are apparently more in my favor. If only I could get the fleet discount on the Tundra . . .
trucksrme, I'm sure that 52 hasn't pulled 9000 pounds! You want work? Try my 78 F-250-still kicking at the firm but is relegated for coffee runs for the girls in the office.
david6, Cracks? I still haven't found one. I own two 98's (F-250 light--same truck as F-150 that year) for my firm and a personal 98 F-150. Four of my foremen own a 97,98,00 F-150s. I've met many guys in the trades that own late-model (new design) F-150s. All I can tell you is that we are contractors. We build houses, lay roofs, put up w/h roofs, etc.... As you gather--these trucks are work vehicles. With that said, I have yet to find or hear of any "cracks" in the door. Maybe we are extremely lucky or it's a rare occurance that has been blown up throught the internet. Who knows?? If you're buying for a fleet--then you should know, as I do, that the F-150 is CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER than the Toyota. I have yet to pay dealer invoice on anything. If cracks are your only hold-up, then go Ford.
"With that said, I have yet to find or hear of any "cracks" in the door. Maybe we are extremely lucky or it's a rare occurance that has been blown up through the internet. Who knows?? "If you're buying for a fleet--then you should know, as I do, that the F-150 is CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER than the Toyota. I have yet to pay dealer invoice on anything. If cracks are your only hold-up, then go Ford."
Actually, I'm buying it through one of my subs who has a fleet. The door crack thing . . . yeah, maybe blown up by the internet. I've really only looked at one F-150 on the street for the crack, but I found it on that one. I imagine if I wasn't looking for it I wouldn't notice it, so I'd guess that a few of the folks you know with the late-model light-duty F-series have the cracks but just haven't looked at them. You should really check out the article, see where the cracks appear, then check your trucks. Like I said, I'll most likely get the F-150 (now I'm just trying to see how long I can stand waiting, since waiting saves me money in the bank). I like the Tundra better, but not a HUGE wad of cash better. The F-150 will serve me well.
Does your Ford trucks have power windows? I think there is some relation to power windows and door cracks on the F-150s. I think it has to do with the power window mechanism flexing the door skin. I've checked out most of the 97-99 F-150s in the parking lot here at work and I would say that greater than 50% have the door cracks.
Not having seen the door cracks on an F150, can anyone tell me how serious they really are? I get the impression they're about 1/8" long. If so, it's much less annoying than even the most minor vibration...
Nothing on my truck but I have seen a few,very hard to notice unless looking for it.BTW ford is working on a fix.I wouldn't let it deter you from purchasing a truck one of the best on the road if not the best.
These forums are a great place to vent and people with problems tend to vent very loudly and who can blame them. If I paid 25-30K for a truck and it wasn't what I deemed was perfect I would be pretty PO'd too. The fact is though, statistically speaking, Ford, Chevy and Dodge make a hell of a lot of trucks and if your chances were statistically very high that you would get a worthless piece of crap they would not continue selling 1 million trucks a year.
Toyota, has traditionally had a statistical smaller chance of defects but they only will sell say 60-100K trucks and people tend to feel like Toyota makes God's own car. This will make the Toyota people who get a lemon scream even louder when they have problems. That is ok too. Just take the time to make your own decisions. You will be happier that way.
I have owned a Chevy, a Dodge,and my Tundra. The Chevy had a couple stupid quirks but all in all one of the best trucks I have ever owned. The Dodge, only had it for about 25K miles but only problem was I killed the radiator when something from the road shot into it at 90 mph. My Tundra has had one or two hard starts but other than that has been flawless.
Good luck with whatever you buy, I think you have a better then average chance of getting a good truck no matter the make. If you really in the market for the Ford and are worried about a small door crack, just think about the fact that the F150 has been the best selling vehicle for a dogs age and I think is the best selling vehicle of all time. I mean I am not a huge Ford fan but I am willing to accept that they have to be doing something right.
I already own a 2000 F150. I was just curious about what to expect. The bottom line is that I probably won't get bent out of shape if the crack is 1/8 inch or something like that. Everything else in the vehicle is just fine up to now.
Of course, these forums are where you hear about the problems -- it would get pretty boring if eveybody had nothing more to say than "my trucks OK, how's yours?..."
I WOULD BUY A TOYOTA TUNDRA FOR ONE REASON I WILL OUT LAST A FORD & IF I WANTED TO BUY A VAN I WOULD THIS IS WHAT I DO NOT LIKE ABOUT THE F-150 THEY HAD TO GO AND PUT THE MOTOR SO FAR UNDER THE FIREWALL THAT YOU CAN NOT EVEN SEE IT THEY NEED TO ADD A DOGHOUST TO THE F-150 & CALL IT THE ECONOLINE TRUCK BECAUSE OF HOW FAR THE MOTOR SITS UP INDER THE FIRE WALL, EVERYONE PLEASE RESOND TO THIS POST THANKS
I have 175K Miles on my 1989 F150 5.0L, original automatic transmission, engine. I have experienced few major problems, with many of these miles towing a fairly heavy boat.
I have read Toyota's literature and towing capacities, which appear favorable on paper, but am concerned about long term reliability given that this 4.7 V8 Tundra is the first Toyota truck that you can seriously use as a towing vehicle.
I understand the 4.7 engine has good history in the Toyota SUV, but this SUV is not probably widely used for towing.
In your opinions, is the transmission, components, etc, "beefy enough" for constant towing, or perhaps is the Tundra a "delicate" truck with some drivetrain/transmission components that will not stand up to many years of "weekend" towing ?
I am not a mechanic, so some insight would be appreciated.
Why do Ford, Chevy, and Dodge truck owners keep degrading the Tundra? I just got a 2000 V8,access cab, 4x4 yesterday and let me tell ya, WOW!!! This truck is unbelievable! I like the Fords a lot, I owned a 97 Ram (loved it), but you can keep those Chevys! What a piece of poop! Everything I've read is true and even going out and driving to see for myself, who built these? Some drunk off of the street? But anyway, I just want to say to you "big 3" truck owners...Face the facts, Toyota has beat you all!!
Has noone beat except maybe if you compare it to cars. Less towing and hauling capacity than the big 3, less space, smaller engine. But as a commute vehicle with some utility it does fine.
To repeat a comment made earlier, the advantage of all this competition is that the customers are more able to have a much greater choice of vehicles to satisfy their own personal needs and desires. That is the nature of supply and demand and the good ol' American economy.
I rode with a buddy in his new F-150 today on lunch break and we stopped to look at the Tundra that I will be picking up soon. The Tundra meets my needs, camping, commuting, summer vacation trips, and hauling dogs and mountain bikes. And boy is it smooth, speedy, and comfortable. My F-150 friend liked it too, but prefers his Ford for his summer long fishing trips to Montana.(it's a nice vehicle)
That's the beauty of freedom, we each have our own choice without resorting to knocking each others preferences our claiming that our own personal preferences are superior. If I was hauling roofing/steel/lumber everyday or "pretending" to work on a farm, I would naturally choose a heavier duty vehicle. But since I don't, this vehicle is right for me.
Should I have to buy my truck based on some of your standards? Of course not. Do I deserve a truck less simply because I will not use it for a work truck? That would be silly. Get with the notion that this is a free country and people spend their dollars as they best see fit. Let's not lose the ability to see that our choices are personal and not based upon the opinions of others.
P.S. I am a big fan of 60's American muscle cars, currently own a Sebring Convertible, Dodge Ram 4x4, am restoring a '59 Chevy Nomad, am trading in a Jeep Grand Cherokee (lemon), and still cry over the day I sold my Convertible GTO. So I am not a Big 3 Basher, I just found that the Tundra was right for me.
I am willing to accept the Tundra, and when having a discussion with others I am always willing to concede that it's a well enginered, smooth riding, good looking light duty commute truck, and then they go and make a comment like your last one that gets me all riled up and into a competitive, 'my truck is better than yours' kinda mood. Toyota has noone beat except SUV's which many upper middle class suburbanites are now shying away from because of the 'poseur' stygma. They still however want a vehicle that can meet their light duty hauling needs while seating four or five in reasonable comfort without having to worry about dirtying up the interior with materials for gardening or weekend home improvement projects. As a vehicle designed for that purpose it excells. Not as a mainstream pickup though.
Question, I tend to glance at these posts while I am at work and wanted to ask if I read one of your posts correctly. Did you say that Toyota makes SUVs superior to the competition. Wow I love my Tundra, I mean best truck I have ever owned kind of love and I don't think I would consider Toyota the superior SUV. Maybe the Land Cruiser but that is so far up the price scale that I have a hard time considering that sucker a Toyota. Forerunners are nice but priced into the stratosphere for what you get and could have a bit more power, RAV4s are well, how about I don't go there. I have driven a Lexus LX400 and it was extremely nice and powerful but so expensive. Just my opinion. Great thing about this country you and I both get to have one. For the money I actually kinda like the new Tahoes and I am really looking forward to the Sequoia.
As for your truck choices, I like Chevy's, have had problems with Daimler Sheister as a company and have never owned a Ford. I think you will find the Dakota really cramped if you found the Tundra cramped and if you did go that route get the 4.7 engine, better engine all around unless you really need the 5.9 low end. The 5.9 really runs out of breath in the higher rev ranges and is a real dog in hot weather.
Good luck with your potential new truck.
I don't bash anybody's ride because like you with your flawless Ranger I had an S10 that was flawless all the way up to around 70K and then I traded it. So to each his own. Maybe we were just lucky, who knows. I have been lucky with all my trucks, not a lemon yet. I probably shouldn't have said that because now I will probably go out and the Tundra won't start.
I didn't really mean that Toyota SUV's are superior to competition. If I'm guessing correctly you read the one where I was trying to say that many Tundra owners are former SUV owners looking for ore usable cargo space. If that's not the post you're referring to let me know. I definitely agree they're pricey for what you get. The 4Runner is probably one of the best offroaders in the segment but there are other midsized SUV's that are more comfortable and less trucklike arond town. And like you said it is pricey for what you get. Same for the Landcruiser. I love it as much as I love Suburbans though. How are you enjoying your new Tundra. That thing must be a blast to drive. Is it 4x4 or rear drive? What options?
I have a 4x2 Sunfire Red Tundra Limited. It is a blast. It is like having a truck, sedan and sports car rolled into one. I can't get over how well it handles and how well the power is delivered all the way up the rev range. I have had it out in about 4 or 5 inches of snow and it went like it was blacktop the whole way. The ABS didn't even engage unless I really forced it to. My last truck was a Dakota 5.9 R/T and this sucker is quicker, faster more comfortable, better assembled and all around more fun than the R/T. The R/T did handle like it was a truck on rails though.
I think you answered my question.
When are you thinking of getting your F150? I have checked out the super crews and they are pretty nice. A bit pricey but very nice. I have also heard rumors of the Ford 5.4 getting either changed or bumped up to 300 some horsepower in the next year or two.
I'll be looking for an F-Series not too long after I graduate. My regular cab Ranger has been good to me and I'll always love it like any enthusiast loves their first new vehicle , but I need more interior space, both for passengers and for stuff too fragile to ride in the bed. The supercrew's an awesome truck that can be used as a family vehicle with good towing and enough bed space for light recreational hauling but I think a 5.5 foot bed is too much of a compromise for passenger space. The Supercabs have more room in back than most coups I've ridden in and even a few sedans, and they should provide enough backseat room for most passengers. At 5'8" I sat in back and in the front of one and found it pretty easy to adjust the seats so that there was plenty of legroom to spare in front and back. I love the 5.4 but I also have this little hangup about preferring manual transmissions and wanting 15-18 mpg, which I don't think is unreasonable for a 4.6 liter V8 with a manual. I know that Tundra must be fast. The one I tried was extremely quick and it was a 4x4. Yours probably weighs a couple hundred pounds less. Put any accessories on it? Have you found them to be readily available?
The 5.4 is getting bumped up to 305 hp and 385 tourque in 2002,it will be a 3valve engine the current 5.4 is a 2valve.BTW a current 5.4 will beat a 4.7 tundra.Tundra claims to be faster than the chevy and ford but it is going against the smallest V8 with the lowest gears,I think if you just put 4.10 gears in the 4.6 Ford V8.Tundra uses 3.92 or something like that it would be pretty close.I do have a current 5.4 with the 3.73 gears 4x4 supercab I installed a superchip,K&N fipk and gibson cat back and I am now getting 22 mpg on highway and 17 in city which is very good for an F250 xlt light duty 3/4 ton truck which will tow 8200lbs.I still payed less with the mods I have than a similiar equipped Tundra.
I never said the Ford 5.4 was a bad engine. I do not like it myself, because it just seems harsh. It doesn't feel as nice as the Tundra or the Chevy Vortechs. I also never claimed that my Tundra would destroy a 5.4 with similar gearing, it will however keep very close. Every manufacturer uses the same marketing tricks. It is not like Ford or Chevy or Dodge haven't done the same thing to each other. Besides. The test should be between the closest displacement motors or the 4.6 and 4.8 in Ford and Chevy. The key is they should all be using as close to the same gearing as possible. 3.73 for Ford and 4.10 for Chevy. The point is the Tundra is a very capable truck that competes handily with the big three. As for cost after all the negotiating is said and done I have always seen the Tundra come out cheaper, but then again I live in Ford Country and they don't do a whole hell of a lot of discounting here.
Eharri3 No mods yet. I want a hard tonneau but don't have the $$$ just yet. Performance wise I am so happy that I really don't want any performance mods. The exhaust is stainless and sounds great, the airflow is very good especially compared to the Dodge airbox/intake setup and it has a nice ride height for me. I have added Sylvania high intensity fog light bulbs but that is about it. I wouldn't mind the TRD single outlet exhaust but I would have to hear it and drive it first and it is a bit pricey.
Again the Ford 5.4 or any of the Triton series of engines I just don't like. This is not a bash it is just personal opinion based on feel, sound, vibration etc. blah blah blah. They just always feel like they are straining to me. I do like the SOHC 205 HP six, that is a nice engine, espicially with the 5 spd auto. I have always been a Chevy powertrain kinda guy and the new Vortech's feel great. I don't know just makes me me and you you I guess.
The Tundra 4.7 is one of the nicest engines I have ever had the pleasure of driving. Very european feel to it. The torque is a bit high up around 2500 or so for a truck but other then that it is nothing short of spectacular. I have grown to like having the torque band a little higher in the RPM as for normal everyday driving it keeps the tail firmly planted and then kicks you in the butt. If I am ever trying to dislodge a oak tree stump I may have a different story. Until then it is the best engine for me and I have tested them all thoroughly.
Comments
No, I didn't mean the half tons could haul 10,000. My point is the big have proven they are capable far beyond the requirements of the half ton. so the half ton truck is an 'easy' challenge. despite all of Toyotas great accomplishments, they haven't done that.
Thus, they don't have the engineering staff or practices in place that know how to do that. Now thats not always bad! 'Outside the box' can be better sometimes. But it always puts engineering at a major disadvantage when you've never done something that your competitors have done for a long time.
rwellbaum,
I hear your question and here is the answer: What cracks? The only place I've heard of this problem is at this site. I haven't heard anyone personally that has it. (Remember, I own a roofing firm so I actually know guys that work their trucks)
Dashboard rattles? Oh come on! What's next? Are you going to make up how who feel there is wasted space between the headlamp and grille? LOL! Everything you bring up as "obvious advantages" are PURELY SUBJECTIVE. You ramble on like a bad moto-journalist. Seriously......Do you have any REAL advantages to share with us?
While you think of a good evasive answer, I'm going to count how many of my employees with Tacomas that have had blown head-gaskets......a problem far worse than some alleged crack in the door......
I personally never go into Tundra-exclusive site (or Chevy for that matter). The Tundra seems like a decent truck and I agree that there are more important things in life to worry about (like my motorcycles!)
My only point is that the comparisons are actually quite close between these trucks. I see no "obvious advantages" by either one. The reliability factor has to be in favor of Ford since they have actually made half-tons for years and Toyota is new to the game. Yes, their other models seem to do well but a full-size truck is not a Corrola.
The Camry, not the Avalon(which is a stretched $30,000 Camry) competes with the Taurus.
Toyota Starlets have un-rebuildable carbs that cost more then the car is worth; late 80's Toyotas literally rust to the ground(at least the motor still runs good) There is a head gasket issue.
YES FORD GM AND CHRYSLER HAVE THEIR PROBLEMS AND FAULTS. BUT STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE THAT TOYOTAS ARE FLAWLESS AND BECAUSE IT'S A TOYOTA IT'S AUTOMATICALLY BETTER THEN EVERY MAKE IN THE SAME CLASS.
Sorry for yelling.
cdean - like I said only time will tell. Obviously I believe that Toyota has pulled it off. Another piece of evidence that suggests such is the T100. Although a miserable failure as far as sales, I've heard a lot of good reliability reports.
rocles - can't add much to what has been posted. It was a tough decision for me to chose between the F150 and the Tundra. I obviously feel that the reliability factor is not in Fords favor, but what the heck do I know.
Farewell guys and have fun with your pickups! I bet I'll enjoy the Tundra.
Ok so Roc, probably can't come up with 250K that easily, sorry we can't all be like me. Just kidding. I wish. Anyway the point is wouldn't be nice to be able to just take 10 or 15 trucks from every manufacturer, put them in the same work environment, Roofing, Oil, Steel, Farming whatever, and wait the 4 or so years to find out which sample really does seem to be the best.
Sure would make my future buying decisions easier. Any Ford makes a good truck. They must I mean they sold almost a million of them last year. I love my Toyota. I did not like the Fords, I just don't like that 5.4 engine. Don't ask me why, it is a great engine, for some reason it just doesn't fit me. A little to harsh and labored sounding I guess. Purely subjective I know. There is no denying GM has had alot of first year bugs. More than there share and from my research much more then Tundra's. I have owned a Dodge and didn't love it. Again subjective. I bought my Tundra because it fits all my needs. Depending on the day of the week, it will work like a beast, run like sports car, cruise almost like a Lexus or act as my Sport UTE ok a sport UTE for Leprecauns, I agree the back seat is a bit small but no worse then the Ford.
I love my Tundra, best truck I have ever owned. I am still very young or I like to think very young but I have had the priviledge of owning GM and Dodge and my Toyota. All were excellent trucks to me. My Tundra is leaps and bounds ahead in fit and finish and the powertrain is superior to anything Dodge offers. Ford makes great trucks. Just not great trucks for me. GM makes great powertrains, just can't seem to get the quality control down these past couple of years.
Everybody go out and drive your trucks whether you drive em for work of for play, if you personally had to pay for em I hope you have fun whatever you are doing, because if you don't like what you payed for then you did get the inferior truck, at least inferior to you and thats all that counts.
So Roc how about that side by side test. Maybe we could get the manufacturers and Consumer reports to kick in a little. Probably about 27.50 but it all helps.
V8 and RWD the way life should be lived.
Also, 'the 100% of fleet sales for the industry': WELL DUHHH! The Tundra was just introduced last year, and didn't really get into dealerships until late summer. Even at that, you still (usually) have to wait if you want one. Considering that fleet bidding take a few months, and the fact that most fleet bidders don't want to wait for their vehciles, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!!. Sure it will be impossible for Toyota to make a dent into such a strong hold. But only time will tell if Toyota can break into fleet sales. It ain't going to happen over night.
Rocles is absolutely right that Quality is purely subjectives. Hey, somebody out there bought Yugo's (Okay, some of you may be too young to remember a Yugo, but trust me). Discussions about quality and reliability is like discussing religion (no don't go there): it's purely personal. A rattling dash may drive some people nuts, versus another person may not even notice.
you are misunderstanding my points. My point about fleet %s is that the Big 3 are proven and reliable in a that work environment. and toyota is not. i was refuting someone elses claims of cross board Toyota superiority. Again, not saying Toyotas bad, just saying Big are pretty good.
you've also misunderstood my point about the Toyotas being a rookie in the half tons. i know toyota makes heavy heavy duties, but thats still not the same class. the big 3 make 1/2, 3/4, 1, and 1 1/2 ton trucks. these are all the same 'size' and class of truck. their engineering is very experienced with the issues in this class of truck. Toyota is not.
Toyota is like saying company A is used to building one-story buildings, and now company A wants to build a two story building. there going go have to learn how.
Dagget,
I believe you stated that since Tundra has 7100 lb towing, it's roughly in same class as F150 which my recollection is about 8500. I assume this means if you had a 7100 pound trailer, you would not hesitate to pull it with your Toyota since an F150 can also easily pull this load. But what if you had a 8000 pound trailer to pull? If Tundra can do it, so can Tacoma since both have same axle? Doesn't matter your answer, because ratings do count. I believe it was you who migrated from a SUV to pickup because it would do the same job for you. That doesn't qualify as an expert opinion when comparing F150 to Tundra on subject of capacity. Agreed with many of your other points, though.
Pcheng,
You take your hat off to Rwellbaum? If you had to sit at the same table like his family members, the ones who actually ARE mechanical engineers, military vets etc., and watch him talk and chew food at the same time, you'd drive a Ford too!
You know I was not referring to you.
Daggett,
Yes..you are correct. (re: #131)
The key word is roughly. If I had a 7000 lb trailer to tow frequently, I would NOT tow it with a Tundra. If I had a load near the capacity of the F150, I wouldn't buy it either.
So that leaves a marginal range of payload that I would trust with the F150 and not the Tundra. Key word - marginal. For the vast majority of users, either the Tundra is just as good or it's a 3/4 ton - super duty etc.
Personally, I'm not real fond of towing at 100% capacity - at least not if you want a truck that's gonna last.
I am not switching from a SUV. And I most certainly do NOT consider my opinion to be expert!!!! If I were an expert, why would I be wasting my time posting at Edmunds? I'm just sharing my relatively worthless opinions. For all I know I could be cursing Toyota violently in 6 months and wishing for that F150 I liked so much.
As a side note: I couldn't deal with a SUV, too many muddy decoys, wet dogs, chest waders, dead animals, 7 foot fishing rods, buckets of bait etc. I currently own a 98 Dakota with the V8 (which I happen to love). I'm picking up the Tundra tonight (not without apprehension). I'm getting the Tundra cause we're family-bound and I need backseats for my future offspring.
If I could fit a horizontal style child seat in the Dakota, I wouldn't be dropping $26,765 in about 4 hours. The Dakota (for those interested) has been really great. I love the 318 matched with that truck and I get up to 19 mpg on the highway. No real problems and I have 52K miles, original tires original brakes - although they won't last the summer for whomever.
That's it, I'm done, I'm picking up the pick-up, my decisions been made. Have fun everyone. If you see me and my Tundra broken down on the side of the road, don't laugh too hard, I am really upset. If I see you and your F150 broken down I'll be sure to stop and help (no, really I will
But...you're not going to worry, you'll be driving home a new truck! (Just let us know where to send the tow truck...LOL, have fun with it!)
You raise the funds and I'll be a guinea pig for anybody and any subject! I'm serious! Years ago Gardner Asphalt was trying to crack the flat-roof market and offered my firm free goods if they could use our name and pictures in the ad! Hell, We still use the products. Toyota can call me anyday!!
tp4unc,
I know....I was feeling rather ornery.... LOL!
daggett and pcheng,
I like you guys. No flames and attitude--that's how it should be at this site when disagreements are discussed. My problem is that I tend to return fire when doused in flames myself.....
cdean and Quad,
Good points as always from you guys...keep it up.
I have a feeling rwellbaum's brain exploded while examining the "wasted space" between the grille and bumper on the Ford......LOL!
Anyway, I'm not a really big guy (~5'7" 150). And I fit into the Tundra better. When I sat in the GMC I felt like the seats were made for people w/ (for lack of a better description) bigger butts than mine. I'm not saying that people who own GMC's have large tailgates, it just didn't fit me. Whereas the Tundra does. My buddy who is much bigger than I 6'1" +220 looks unconfortable in my Tundra, although he swears he isn't.
So, value is very subjective. I don't care how much money I'd save, if I had to chase my 3 year old across the cab just because it didn't have a 4th door.
Although I love my F350 crew cab, If I were considering half tons, I would consider the Silverados. My best friend has one and it pulls, rides and drives very well. About two years ago I rented an F150 4x4 Supercab and was impressed by it's highway manners. The Toyota is probably a fine driving truck, but not enough capacity or safety for my taste. Plus there's the non-American engineering thing. We have better trucks to choose from and more choices. I guess that's a result of an increasing market size.
So the Tundra is perfect for me and know one can convince me otherwise. Just get what you need and want...who cares? You have to live with it not anyone else.
Enjoy your trucks because they are all great trucks that can fit most anyone's needs.
I'm sure that 52 hasn't pulled 9000 pounds!
You want work? Try my 78 F-250-still kicking at the firm but is relegated for coffee runs for the girls in the office.
david6,
Cracks? I still haven't found one. I own two 98's (F-250 light--same truck as F-150 that year) for my firm and a personal 98 F-150. Four of my foremen own a 97,98,00 F-150s. I've met many guys in the trades that own late-model (new design) F-150s. All I can tell you is that we are contractors. We build houses, lay roofs, put up w/h roofs, etc.... As you gather--these trucks are work vehicles.
With that said, I have yet to find or hear of any "cracks" in the door. Maybe we are extremely lucky or it's a rare occurance that has been blown up throught the internet. Who knows??
If you're buying for a fleet--then you should know, as I do, that the F-150 is CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER than the Toyota. I have yet to pay dealer invoice on anything. If cracks are your only hold-up, then go Ford.
"With that said, I have yet to find or hear of any
"cracks" in the door. Maybe we are extremely lucky
or it's a rare occurance that has been blown up
through the internet. Who knows??
"If you're buying for a fleet--then you should
know, as I do, that the F-150 is CONSIDERABLY
CHEAPER than the Toyota. I have yet to pay dealer
invoice on anything. If cracks are your only
hold-up, then go Ford."
Actually, I'm buying it through one of my subs who has a fleet. The door crack thing . . . yeah, maybe blown up by the internet. I've really only looked at one F-150 on the street for the crack, but I found it on that one. I imagine if I wasn't looking for it I wouldn't notice it, so I'd guess that a few of the folks you know with the late-model light-duty F-series have the cracks but just haven't looked at them. You should really check out the article, see where the cracks appear, then check your trucks.
Like I said, I'll most likely get the F-150 (now I'm just trying to see how long I can stand waiting, since waiting saves me money in the bank). I like the Tundra better, but not a HUGE wad of cash better. The F-150 will serve me well.
Alas, most do not.....but some do and I even scoured my own today. Still haven't found one that couldn't be accounted for(remember--we are roofers!)
Toyota, has traditionally had a statistical smaller chance of defects but they only will sell say 60-100K trucks and people tend to feel like Toyota makes God's own car. This will make the Toyota people who get a lemon scream even louder when they have problems. That is ok too. Just take the time to make your own decisions. You will be happier that way.
I have owned a Chevy, a Dodge,and my Tundra. The Chevy had a couple stupid quirks but all in all one of the best trucks I have ever owned. The Dodge, only had it for about 25K miles but only problem was I killed the radiator when something from the road shot into it at 90 mph. My Tundra has had one or two hard starts but other than that has been flawless.
Good luck with whatever you buy, I think you have a better then average chance of getting a good truck no matter the make. If you really in the market for the Ford and are worried about a small door crack, just think about the fact that the F150 has been the best selling vehicle for a dogs age and I think is the best selling vehicle of all time. I mean I am not a huge Ford fan but I am willing to accept that they have to be doing something right.
Of course, these forums are where you hear about the problems -- it would get pretty boring if eveybody had nothing more to say than "my trucks OK, how's yours?..."
automatic transmission, engine. I have experienced few major problems, with many of these miles towing a fairly heavy boat.
I have read Toyota's literature and towing capacities, which appear favorable on paper, but am concerned about long term reliability given that this 4.7 V8 Tundra is the first Toyota truck that you can seriously use as a towing vehicle.
I understand the 4.7 engine has good history
in the Toyota SUV, but this SUV is not probably
widely used for towing.
In your opinions, is the transmission, components, etc, "beefy enough" for constant towing, or perhaps is the Tundra a "delicate" truck with some drivetrain/transmission components that will not stand up to many years of "weekend" towing ?
I am not a mechanic, so some insight would
be appreciated.
I rode with a buddy in his new F-150 today on lunch break and we stopped to look at the Tundra that I will be picking up soon. The Tundra meets my needs, camping, commuting, summer vacation trips, and hauling dogs and mountain bikes. And boy is it smooth, speedy, and comfortable. My F-150 friend liked it too, but prefers his Ford for his summer long fishing trips to Montana.(it's a nice vehicle)
That's the beauty of freedom, we each have our own choice without resorting to knocking each others preferences our claiming that our own personal preferences are superior. If I was hauling roofing/steel/lumber everyday or "pretending" to work on a farm, I would naturally choose a heavier duty vehicle. But since I don't, this vehicle is right for me.
Should I have to buy my truck based on some of your standards? Of course not. Do I deserve a truck less simply because I will not use it for a work truck? That would be silly. Get with the notion that this is a free country and people spend their dollars as they best see fit. Let's not lose the ability to see that our choices are personal and not based upon the opinions of others.
P.S. I am a big fan of 60's American muscle cars, currently own a Sebring Convertible, Dodge Ram 4x4, am restoring a '59 Chevy Nomad, am trading in a Jeep Grand Cherokee (lemon), and still cry over the day I sold my Convertible GTO. So I am not a Big 3 Basher, I just found that the Tundra was right for me.
Sorry for the long post all!!!!
As for your truck choices, I like Chevy's, have had problems with Daimler Sheister as a company and have never owned a Ford. I think you will find the Dakota really cramped if you found the Tundra cramped and if you did go that route get the 4.7 engine, better engine all around unless you really need the 5.9 low end. The 5.9 really runs out of breath in the higher rev ranges and is a real dog in hot weather.
Good luck with your potential new truck.
I don't bash anybody's ride because like you with your flawless Ranger I had an S10 that was flawless all the way up to around 70K and then I traded it. So to each his own. Maybe we were just lucky, who knows. I have been lucky with all my trucks, not a lemon yet. I probably shouldn't have said that because now I will probably go out and the Tundra won't start.
I think you answered my question.
When are you thinking of getting your F150? I have checked out the super crews and they are pretty nice. A bit pricey but very nice. I have also heard rumors of the Ford 5.4 getting either changed or bumped up to 300 some horsepower in the next year or two.
I love the 5.4 but I also have this little hangup about preferring manual transmissions and wanting 15-18 mpg, which I don't think is unreasonable for a 4.6 liter V8 with a manual.
I know that Tundra must be fast. The one I tried was extremely quick and it was a 4x4. Yours probably weighs a couple hundred pounds less. Put any accessories on it? Have you found them to be readily available?
Eharri3 No mods yet. I want a hard tonneau but don't have the $$$ just yet. Performance wise I am so happy that I really don't want any performance mods. The exhaust is stainless and sounds great, the airflow is very good especially compared to the Dodge airbox/intake setup and it has a nice ride height for me. I have added Sylvania high intensity fog light bulbs but that is about it. I wouldn't mind the TRD single outlet exhaust but I would have to hear it and drive it first and it is a bit pricey.
Again the Ford 5.4 or any of the Triton series of engines I just don't like. This is not a bash it is just personal opinion based on feel, sound, vibration etc. blah blah blah. They just always feel like they are straining to me. I do like the SOHC 205 HP six, that is a nice engine, espicially with the 5 spd auto. I have always been a Chevy powertrain kinda guy and the new Vortech's feel great. I don't know just makes me me and you you I guess.
The Tundra 4.7 is one of the nicest engines I have ever had the pleasure of driving. Very european feel to it. The torque is a bit high up around 2500 or so for a truck but other then that it is nothing short of spectacular. I have grown to like having the torque band a little higher in the RPM as for normal everyday driving it keeps the tail firmly planted and then kicks you in the butt. If I am ever trying to dislodge a oak tree stump I may have a different story. Until then it is the best engine for me and I have tested them all thoroughly.
Chris