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BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS

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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The IS350 is a little faster.

    Let's put in some perspective, the difference between 330i and 325i 0-60 is 10% (6.1 vs. 6.7); the difference between IS350 and330 is anywhere between 10% and 20% (5.1 vs. 5.6 or 6.1 depending who's testing)! If IS350 is only "a little faster" than 330i, then 330i is only half a little faster than 325i! And how much difference in price is that?
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Who cares about the acceleration?

    BMW 3 series is the "Benchmark Sport Sedan" for its industry leading driving dynamics. The two points you mention above as a "cockpit feel" and "acceleration" are of little relevance in this segment.

    Otherwise the 3 series would never be a benchmark vehicle to begin with. These past few decades the 3 series has always been a turtle in the sport sedan segment and the turtle has always beaten the hare .

    Whoever said the turtle and hare story is a make-believe kid's story?
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Yes…

    325i is a little faster than IS250
    330i is a little faster than 325i
    IS350 is a little faster than 330i

    Price difference between a 325i and 330i is a approx $2-3K if you add additional equipment to the level of the 330i. How is this not in perspective?
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Who cares about the acceleration?

    I wonder why BMWUSA puts 0-60 in the technical spec of the vehicle . . . why would anyone want to buy a 330i over a 325i except for accelearation? You are not seriously suggesting that 330i buyers are posuers who pay the extra money for extra electronics and leather, are you?

    BTW, interesting take on the turtle vs. hare analogy . . . I thought people in this price segment who want the uneventful ride to the finish line (like the turtle) would have picked the ES. If "turtles" are really the champions in this segment, I wonder why the 325i/323i were much less frequently entered into comparo's than the 330i/328i in the past couple decades. Contrary to your claims, acclearation apparently does matter.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Per centage-wise, the difference in 0-60 between IS350 and 330i is much greater than that between 330i and 325i. Is 330i just "a little" faster than 325i? Considering that this forum is named after 330i and IS350, more or less as a way of excluding their lower siblings, there is more than "a little" difference between 325i and 330i for the self appointed "real drivers."
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    BMW 3 series are mechanically among the most reliable cars on this planet. Transmission issues are a prevailing theme for both Lexuses and Acuras.

    What Lexus transmission reliability issue are you referencing? As far as I know, there is no statisticly significant cases of Lexus transmission blowing up or self-destructing like the M3 valvetronic engines.
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    grylexis300grylexis300 Member Posts: 53
    totally agree with brightness. so many good points.

    now that there is a car that can just dust a 330i and cost less with all the goods to boot this will become a discussion about the advantages of having a manual stick shift 330i and it being a drivers car.

    you can buy a IS250 stick shift, put intake and supercharge it too and it will still be cheaper than a 330i folks. but of course the bmw will still be the better handling car right?? no car can connect you to the road better. maybe so to a lot of folks obviously but to each his own.

    the facts speak for themselves. IS350 automatic smokes a MANUAL 330i in car and drivers comparo. it is not a LITTLE FASTER FOLKS. and from what i remember car and driver had the IS300 running some of the slowest times you have ever seen and no bmw maniac ever complained about those numbers.

    and let's bring this discussion back to reality for bmw drivers. almost 70% of bmw 3 series sold are automatics and i'd bet a lot of those cars don't even have sport suspension.

    the BMW 3 series is a true sports sedan with good moves BUT it is also the only BMW CAR under 50 thousand. people often buy it because they just can't afford anything else in the bmw lineup. they could care less about how good it is on the track and that the 330i has a stick shift. they want a bmw and that is all they can buy. so does this vaunted car sell so well because it is the best driver's car or because it is the CHEAPEST bmw. i'd take the latter.
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    grylexis300grylexis300 Member Posts: 53
    bmw's are not the among the most reliable cars on this planet. i think infiniti is second to lexus and bmw is far far behind. bmw cannot even compete with the american car companies.

    if bmw were second to lexus than that would be something. bmw is not even in the top 10 most reliable cars. this is not even a contest that's why i love to bring it up. and the lexus will always cost less too it is too much of a romp.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    You are not seriously suggesting that 330i buyers are posuers who pay the extra money for extra electronics and leather, are you?

    thought people in this price segment who want the uneventful ride to the finish line (like the turtle) would have picked the ES.

    It appears you are responding to my post :confuse:
    Or may be not :confuse:
    Cant understand how you can make such inferences based on my post :confuse:
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    What Lexus transmission reliability issue are you referencing? As far as I know,

    Lexus ES tranny issues are well documented. Try Googling it yourself. There is also a Edmunds forum dedicated to these tranny issues.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    blowing up or self-destructing like the M3 valvetronic engines

    LOL,

    they blow up do they? Self destruct? I should keep my kids away from my neigbor's M3 or at least put out a neighborhood "Orange Alert" whenever his M3 is parked on his driveway.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Totally agree with your points. The E90 is the benchmark for the class. The car is handsome, the interior is pure BMW and the handling characteristics are second to none.

    BMW has always charged more for more acceleration. While people may debate style, form and function on both cars, it's hard to debate the reviews of the handling.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "blowing up or self-destructing like the M3 valvetronic engines"

    At least the blow up and not sludge up! :)
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Laughing all you want, here's service info on the M3 S54 engine failures:

    http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm

    20,000 M3's are affected inthe US (48,000 worldwide) out of 28,600 M3's with S54 engines sold up to that time. Statisticly significant, I'd say.
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    dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    grylexis300,

    You missed the point of my post. I don't care if manual 330i got smoked by auto IS350. My grip is the BS comment about how 330i was equiped with auto to make the fight "fair".

    If the rational to equip 330i with auto was to test a typically equiped 330i to typically equiped IS350, that's fine since 70-80% of 330i have manuals in the US.

    There are enough differences between the 2 cars that a same transmission type doesn't make the fight "fair". Anyone who thinks that is fooling themselves.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Statisfically insignificant since hardly any of the M3s were affected with engine damage. No accidents or injuries were attributed to this problem. It was not a safety issue and the M3s were operational with no immediate need for repairs. And only very few M3s among the thousands required a replacement of connecting rod bearings . BMW responded and fixed up the problem without any furthur issues.

    And what is your description of the above situation? Blowing up and self destuctive engines? LOL, you are quite funny.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The S54 engine failure is apparently prevalent enough that service advisories to owners were issued, not once, but on multiple occasions. Internal combustion engine throwing a rod in nomal operation is called "self-destruct" and "engine blow-up" in case you did not know because it usually involves a very loud bang . . . it's not exactly a rocket engine that could involve explosion outside the cylinder. "Blown up" in the context of internal combustion engines and turbos denotes catastrophic failure and rending the inner works of the engine to bits . . . The strawman attack against me was quite uncalled-for.

    Now that I have presented the evidence behind my reference, please tell us what statisticly significant transmission failure has been documented for Lexus.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    So who asked the question "who cares about accelearation?"

    What other difference is there between 330i and 325i, besides accelearation, extra electronics and leather? If nobody cares about accelearation (as you are alleging) then the 330i buyers must be paying the extra dough for the extra electronics and leather, right?
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Statistically insignificant based on the numbers. Repeated occasions? WHat other occasions are you refering to?

    And I repeat there are no mechanical issues with the current 3 series.

    Significant transmission failure in a Lexus ES? Were those my words? If you respond to my post please read the content of my post before making up facts or fiction. I said Lexus ES transmission issues not transmission failure. You do know the difference, right?

    Below is a Edmunds forum dedicated to ES transmission problems.

    link title
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Whatever!

    It's pointless to respond to someone who does not read what I write. Have you read the post you are referring to?
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Totally agree with your points. The E90 is the benchmark for the class. The car is handsome, the interior is pure BMW and the handling characteristics are second to none.

    I remember during the 1980s when there were lower priced GMs and Fords that could accelerate faster than the BMW 3 series . Now you have some who think that because other cars like the IS can accelerate faster than the BMW E90, that means BMW has lost its benchmark status.

    Which reminds me and I hate repeating it? Which car is currently the benchmark performance sedan? Hint: the same car that was the benchmark in the 1980s. :)
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    pocono35pocono35 Member Posts: 89
    I truly want a 330xi for my wife but $40k+ no matter what the call will do is just too much. I'll wait for the new G35x. I know the Bimmer is a better vehicle but I guess I am just too practical now that I am 40. Bummer.
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Per centage-wise, the difference in 0-60 between IS350 and 330i is much greater than that between 330i and 325i. Is 330i just "a little" faster than 325i? Considering that this forum is named after 330i and IS350, more or less as a way of excluding their lower siblings, there is more than "a little" difference between 325i and 330i for the self appointed "real drivers."

    Sorry…I just don’t understand what you’re trying to say.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Statistically insignificant based on the numbers. Repeated occasions? WHat other occasions are you refering to?

    Please clarify what your first sentence was supposed to mean, as numerous owners did have their engines blowing up (ie. fail catastrophicly with a loud bangs but no fire ball outside the engine cylinders if you have to have a definition on why it means when an internal combusttion engine is "blown"), and BMW had to issue service advisory on several occasions regarding the subject. As to your two questions above, please re-read my previous post. BMW issued service advisories regarding the S54 engine on several times. S54 Engine failure was apparently quite common; the repeated issuence of service advisory answers your search for statistic significance (vs. isolated cases hypothesis).

    And I repeat there are no mechanical issues with the current 3 series.

    The current 3 series has been on the market for less tha na year. It has an engine that is took many technical elements of S54, but scaled down for cost savings.

    Significant transmission failure in a Lexus ES? Were those my words? If you respond to my post please read the content of my post before making up facts or fiction.

    You will do well heeding your own advice. "Statisticly significant" is not the same thing as "significant." In any case, since you dimissed my original mentioning of M3 engine failures as "statisticly insignificant" for the number of M3's sold, one can only surmise that you have some statisticly significant reference for Lexus trasnmission failures when you said

    "BMW 3 series are mechanically among the most reliable cars on this planet. Transmission issues are a prevailing theme for both Lexuses and Acuras."

    If you want to retract the thinly veiled implications of Lexus transmission failures now, that's fine with me.

    As for "trasmission hesitation" that you are referencing from other threads, that is not a failure or even an mechanical "issue," or even "trasmission" issue per se. It's the electronic drive-by-wire system juggling rev-matching and fuel economy. It may lack the positive feedback of a conventional mechanical system, call it a failure or "issue" is about the same as calling BMW SMG lacking in positive feedback or any CVT lacking a kick in the pants. These are non-issues, and in no way have anything to do with reliability or lack of.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    IS350 is quicker than 330i to a greater degree than 330i is to 325i. If 330i is a whole tier above the 325i, it is rather unjust to characterise the accelearation difference between the IS350 and 33i as only "a little"
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Whatever!

    It's pointless to respond to someone who does not read what I write. Have you read the post you are referring to?

    The answer is yes. Please check post #425 and let us know if you wrote that post or someone else hijacked your account. Post #425 started with the rhetorical question:

    "Who cares about the accelearation?"

    I have been trying to answer that question by citing the numerous 330i buyers. If you are not the author of post #425, please let us know.
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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "bmw's are not the among the most reliable cars on this planet. i think infiniti is second to lexus and bmw is far far behind. bmw cannot even compete with the american car companies.

    if bmw were second to lexus than that would be something. bmw is not even in the top 10 most reliable cars. this is not even a contest that's why i love to bring it up. and the lexus will always cost less too it is too much of a romp."

    (1) The "shift" key is to the left of the "z" and the right of the "/". ;)

    (2) The "comma" key is to the right of the "m" ;)

    (3) Consumer Reports, not my personal favorite publication, but one that is an authority on reliability, rated the BMW 5 series higher than any other car in the 40+ year history of the magazine. :surprise:

    (4) We likely would have been Lexus GX470 owners, had it not been for two different friends that had theirs bought back after less than a year of ownership, due to chronic transmission clunking and drivetrain vibrations at highway speeds. A problem that still hasn't been fully resolved. Check out the Lexus boards here in Edmunds.

    I don't own a BMW. And I'm not disputing that Lexus is a very good company. But I take issue with Lexus owners that think they are sitting on the pinnacle of perfection. Lexus (and Toyota) milked the hell out of a 10+ year old antiquated V8 engine that drank gas and produced a whopping 235 hp. BMW may not have achieved Lexus level reliability. But Lexus engineering isn't exactly breathtaking. There is more performance oriented engineering innovation in the $32k Honda S2000 than in the entire Lexus/Toyota lineup, combined.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    IMHO, it only makes sense that a luxury V8's, or any other luxury V8's, get milked for 10+ years. They are not sold in the hundreds of thousands each year like econo I-4's. MB milked the 3-valve-per-cyl SOHC (talk about ancient technology) for over a decade, so did BMW with its 4.0/4.4. At least the Lexus V8 has had a stellar service reliability history, unlike the MB's oil leak problems and BMW's early cylindar wall perforration problem with their V8's.

    I agree that Honda has always been the leader in engine bay technological innovation per dollar of vehicle sold . . . too bad it is reluctant to join the top tier luxury brands by offering some really old fashioined RWD ;-) Despite the great handling characteristics from Honda/Acrua's FWD SH offerings, the market acceptance was just not there. The 330i vs. IS350 market segment will indeed be a lot more interesting when the TSX and TL get AWD.
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    sortersorter Member Posts: 146
    And the IS350 is one of those cars that are above that benchmark.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I care about acceleration, but I also care about other aspects of a car as well. The 0-60 is just one factor of out of many purchasers consider and ultimately decide when they sign on a dotted line. If 0-60 was the ultimate decider BMW wouldn't sell one 325.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "The 330i vs. IS350 market segment will indeed be a lot more interesting when the TSX and TL get AWD."

    As when the rumored 335 and new M3 with the V8 come out.
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    mikegillermikegiller Member Posts: 602
    "1. Which one do you like for your own needs and wants.
    2. I think it also says something that everyone who tests these cars for a living has in every review I've seen (min. 4+) has picked the 330i over the IS350. To me, that says something."

    Hmmm... These are totally contradictory.
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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "too bad it is reluctant to join the top tier luxury brands by offering some really old fashioined RWD Despite the great handling characteristics from Honda/Acrua's FWD SH offerings, the market acceptance was just not there."

    I fully agree with you there and might even be less diplomatic. The "SH" AWD RL isn't "super handling" in my opinion. Had one as a loaner for a week, and was happy to get back my TL 6-speed, which is significantly quicker, better brakes and (at least in 6-speed form w/ the firmer suspension), more nimble and responsive handling. Not to mention, a lot more fun to drive with a 6-speed gearbox almost as crisp as the S2000.

    The grossly overweight AWD RL will never be on my shopping list in current form. And I don't advocate the TL going to AWD, but rather RWD. If I want a 3,800 - 4,000 lb "sport" sedan, I'll go to a 550i 6-speed or M5 and get a world class chassis and engine to go along with it. If I need AWD for inclement weather, I'll hop in our MDX and get decent ground clearance to boot. Our friend's RL sat in their garage this past Sunday after an unsuccessful attempt to get through 10" of unplowed snow. Driver incompetance may have been partly to blame.

    At least the Honda S2000 is RWD and the only Japanese alternative to the Porsche Boxster or other serious sports car. The blubbery, parts sharing 350Z is a pitiful wannabe in that segment. As an early generation Supra (1984) owner, I had been a big fan of Toyota 20+ years ago. But they have completely exited the sports car / sports sedan market and even Lexus seems to be bipolar. Great that the GS430 and IS350 are RWD, but slushbox only and, at least with the GS, a less than impressive suspension/chassis.

    All this is somewhat moot at this point. I don't anticipate turning in the keys of our 911S Cab for any sport sedan in the foreseeable future. But it is fun to wish for more alternatives than the 5-series, when the time comes.
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    callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    is very disappointing.

    This also, unfortunately, coincides with Toyota's accelerated ascenion to power, as share in the last 8-10 years has skyrocketed, while the All-trac Turbos, MR2s, Supras, and SC300 5-speeds have fallen by the wayside.

    Toyota now is owned by Upper-Middle Class America. People who can't change oil, can't cook anything longer than 5 minutes (on "Hi"), and don't really want to be bothered by having to "drive" anywhere, for fun or otherwise.

    I drive Hondas because Toyota won't sell me a car.

    Honda keeps it real. Exciting! :)

    Not a fan of Acura, doh. :(

    But back to the topic at hand, the Is350 and 330i are not really competitors, because the IS is nothing like the 3, except that they share a price point and similar size.

    The 3 caters to ALL car shoppers. The IS just to lexus intenders, or other passengers.

    The IS maybe sexier, or faster, but it has chosen not to step over the line in the sand. :cry:

    DrFill
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    cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    A driving machine is a driving machine. A people mover is a people mover. A shorter time from 0 to 60 mph (a higher HP)does not make a people mover a driving machine.
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    mikegillermikegiller Member Posts: 602
    "the BMW 3 series is a true sports sedan with good moves BUT it is also the only BMW CAR under 50 thousand. people often buy it because they just can't afford anything else in the bmw lineup. they could care less about how good it is on the track and that the 330i has a stick shift. they want a bmw and that is all they can buy. so does this vaunted car sell so well because it is the best driver's car or because it is the CHEAPEST bmw. i'd take the latter."

    Oh... my... God...

    After all these years, for some reason that did not occur to me!

    I think you hit the nail on the head, my friend! And, I don't think that point has EVER been raised in these forums before!

    I think you found the formula/secret for BMW's sales success. I guess people have been afraid to admit that.

    Time will take care of the "BMW Prestige". Eventually (not now), there won't be reviews questioning whether "the King from Bavaria" will be able to fight off the "Dark Force from the Land of the Rising Sun"!

    Meh, give me my Lexus any day. Those schoes can have their BMWs. Not trying to convert anybody.

    :)
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    victord1victord1 Member Posts: 94
    The 3 caters to ALL car shoppers

    Wow, are you saying that the 3series appeal and/or fulfill the needs of all car shoppers???? It gotta be the BOLDEST statement I've come across on this board.

    The last time I looked, the Camry/Accord camp hooked the majority of car shoppers. And I said "majority" because not all car shoppers wanted a Camry or an Accord.
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I think you found the formula/secret for BMW's sales success. I guess people have been afraid to admit that.

    This revelation is nothing new to me…I freely admit it.

    I would rather have a 3 series with parts filtered down from the 7 and 5 series than an IS with parts filtered UP from the corolla.

    Then the inevitable conclusion is “hey Lexus can build a 3 series fighter for less money”, they sure can, but so can Dodge with the Neon SRT-4…”hey Dodge can build an IS350 fighter for less money”.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I can certainly agree with you that many reasons go into 325 purchases; I may even venture to surmise that the biggest reason of them all has zilch to do with performance or driving: 325 is simply the least expensive BMW. The theory will probably prove true when the 1 serious comes out.

    That being said, people pay the extra money for a 330i over 325i primarily for the power and accelearation . . . or at least so we hope ;-)
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Toyota now is owned by Upper-Middle Class America. People who can't change oil, can't cook anything longer than 5 minutes (on "Hi"), and don't really want to be bothered by having to "drive" anywhere, for fun or otherwise.

    BMW is the quitessential "yuppymobile." I doubt any owner of new BMW's change their own oil at all . . . isn't that what Free Maintenance is for? I'm a Toyota owner, I freely admit that I'm a member of Upper-Middle Class America (by the way the cut-off line for top 20% income bracket is only $65k/yr according to IRS, most posters on this forum probably make the cut), I don't change my own oil but I do bring my own Mobil1 synthetic to the dealership (which is more than can be said of the overwhelming majority of BMW owners) . . . and yes I do cook and I'm really good at it (I can cook a banquet for 50+ with only two assistants if I want to even though I'm not a chef by profession). On top of it all, I do care about driving, but for my daily driver, reliability is more important than anything else (perhaps with the sole exception of safety). I owned a couple BMW's in years past before Toyota and Honda caught up on safety and crash-worthiness.

    IS350 and 330i are certainly competitors, as they are competing for my money, and that of many others in similar situations.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Please clarify what your first sentence was supposed to mean, as numerous owners did have their engines blowing up (ie. fail catastrophicly with a loud bangs but no fire ball outside the engine cylinders if you have to have a definition on why it means when an internal combusttion engine is "blown"), and BMW had to issue service advisory on several occasions regarding the subject. As to your two questions above, please re-read my previous post. BMW issued service advisories regarding the S54 engine on several times. S54 Engine failure was apparently quite common; the repeated issuence of service advisory answers your search for statistic significance (vs. isolated cases hypothesis).

    You are acting quite hysterical about a non-event. The single M3 event can be best described by my post # 439. My description in post 439 is consistent with the facts of BMW replacing connect rod bearings. Relax it's not such a big deal. And my seven year old BMW e46 is mechanicallly doing great just as you would expect based on CR and JD Power results.

    And yes Lexus ES has transmission issues are a BIG TURN OFF for quite a few buyers. That to me sounds like an issue.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    So why do people buy the BMW 325i?

    Because it is the best handling car in its price range.

    Does that mean poseurs do not buy BMW325i. Yes ofcoruse, poseurs do buy BMWs just like they buy any other luxruy marques. Are there no poseurs among IS buyers?

    ANd why pay the price premium of a 330 over a 325. Because that is the price you pay to have a superior car in terms of features and performance. Is that not obvious? Does that not apply to other car brands?
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Poseur:
    a person who pretends to be what he or she is not : an affected or insincere person.

    I’m not sure how the term refers to some BMW owners. Is it because BMW’s ARE the ultimate driving machine and some people buy them just as daily commuters. Since these owners have no intention of tearing up the road they are “poseurs”? They pretend they like to drive…but really they don’t…they just want the appearance?

    Driving a Ferrari as a daily commuter car or picking up kids does not change the capabilities of the vehicle.

    Now…are Lexus owners poseurs? They want luxury, but they don’t buy a loaded Toyota they go for Lexus…are they insincere…do they only want the badge.

    Is the IS350 a poseur car? Does it have the luxury of a Lexus? Is it a sports car…auto…electrical nannies…is it a sedan or should it compete against a G35 coupe? Maybe it does a “little” of each and that is the appeal.

    Never met a Lexus (Toyota) I liked…never met a BMW I didn’t…even the large 7 series…a little biased I guess.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "That being said, people pay the extra money for a 330i over 325i primarily for the power and accelearation . . . or at least so we hope ;-) "

    I fully agree, but just as the IS350 is more than a bigger engine than the IS250, the 330 is more than a bigger engine or (more intake manifolds) than the 325. That said, I would bet Lexus sells more IS350s than IS350s.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    BMW is the quitessential "yuppymobile."

    Man, oh, man...give me a brake! :) That is one of the most condescending things you ever written in a post. It simply ignores the appeal of BMW.

    So let me get this straight, buy a $45K 330 and you bought a yuppiemobile? Buy a $45K IS350 and you've bought a what? A poseur-mobile?
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    best4best4 Member Posts: 26
    Thanks for all the comments, here are mine.

    My wife and I needed a second car that could handle a car seat in the back. Our previous second car was a Miata so we wanted something that handled well but had a back seat. I drove everything TL, G35, M35, IS350, 325I, 330I, A3, A4, 9-3, CTS, WRX, Passat and S60/S40. It came down to the IS and the 330. We then drove both and took the Lexus over to the BMW dealer and put them next to each other. The Lexus had smaller cockpit area than the BMW. The back seat was definitely smaller. My dad had two Lexus cars with "Sludge" problems (They replaced the engines) and a friend of mine had a BMW with electrical glitches. So I contended that the quality of both cars may be similar (still unknown at this point). I drove the IS like I drove the Miata and the VDIM system always came on during aggressive maneuvers. The BMW only came on once and was less intrusive. Both cars were very smooth and their rides were excellent. I chose the BMW with a 6 sp manual. For driving it seemed like the better choice. I did not always agree with the transmissions' choice on the Lexus. Drive them both and put them next to each other.
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    mikegillermikegiller Member Posts: 602
    I am sorry, I just don't understand what you are saying.

    And that's for real!!!

    You might be talking about the windshield washer stalk.. Big woop-dee-doo. I am not crazy about the BMW's windshield washer stalk. Are you? If that makes you buy the car, I guess you are something special?

    You must have not done very well at MENSA tests:

    Everybody, this is the Inevitable Conclusion!

    330i is simply a better-built, more substantial, better looking, more expensive, however accel-challenged version of the IS 350, as the IS 350 is simply a better-built, more substantial, better looking, more expensive, however accel-challenged version of the SRT-4.

    Yea, that IS 350 sure is a cheap looking car. Something about your logic does not sit well in my stomach.
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    mikegillermikegiller Member Posts: 602
    I would agree if the Lexus ES was not selling.
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    mikegillermikegiller Member Posts: 602
    People buy BMW 325is because it's a BMW.

    "Daddy, I want a BMW! My friend Lexus has one."

    "Ok, well, the 325i is the cheapest one. Let's go get one tomorrow, Mercedes."

    You have to be kidding me if you think the sole reason somebody buys an entry level luxury sedan is because of its handling. It could, for maybe a second, have something to do with BMW's history. Only the magazines (and some select few enthusiasts) care that it is the best handler.

    How many conversations do you think come up between "girlfriends", after they mention they drive a BMW, in which they mention how much they have fun carving their way to work.

    It's a car. It's a BMW... It's a BMW. Yep, you drive... a BMW.

    People buy these cars, for the most part, because they are prestige cars.

    I wonder what cars they would buy if they had all the money in the world. I also wonder: How many people in the world dream of getting themselves a BMW without once ever driving it; and what does that say?
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    You must have not done very well at MENSA tests:

    Never taken a MENSA test…is that some kind of motor-sport test ;)

    Last IQ test was 135; I refer it to as smart enough to pretend I know what I’m talking about…but isn’t it wisdom that we seek?

    Windshield stalks…and everything else.
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