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BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS
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Comments
"While the automatic petrol isn't that much faster than the manual diesel (141mph, 0-62mph in 8.4sec) it is by far the nicest engine/transmission combination."
"Ultimately the IS isn't a match for the best-specified BMW 3-series."
I, however, don't see the 3 series reference in your second quote. The first one I already know because I was asking about references besides backseat space.
If I were looking at a $35,000 performance/luxury sedan, I would like it to at least be able to outrun an $18,000 Corolla - but hey, that's just me.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=16&article_id=8290&page_numbe- - r=2
The Corolla, Sentra, Civic, etc. are pedestrian economy cars. In the performance/luxury segment, it's my opinion that the IS250 doesn't have enough HP for it's weight.
Consider the 3-series. The 325i and 330i are separated by only about 1/2 second to 60 MPH (6.7 vs. 6.1). The IS250, on the other hand lags behind the IS350 by about 3 seconds to 60 MPH (5.0 vs. 8.0).
That's a huge gap!
here are my thoughts: someone on the other forum makes a very good point: 0-60 is one thing and how it accelerates after 60mph is another. Fact is that they test drove a Corvette and a 911 and they both have the same 1/4 mile time. The Corvette has a V8, 400hp, and 400lbs of torque compared to 911's 355hp and 295 lb torque. something is fishy...
You can take an automobile, say an S2000, that has impressive 0-60 times (let’s use C&D). If you do the same acceleration test only 5-60 you notice that the time is significantly slower (1-2 seconds don’t remember). In this instance if you like dropping (or slipping) your clutch at 4500 rpm you can achieve the “stats”; this is not something I regularly like to do with my depreciating investment (oxymoron ?). Although, if I were doing any track racing, such as SOLO II, then the S2000 would probably be at the top of my list they usually win.
Maybe the 911’s turbo is a larger type turbo and has more of its power in the upper end gearing not sure.
A few years ago I drove a BMW 323 with 170ish hp. I was MUCH more impressed with the real world acceleration and feel than I was in a 250hp SC400.
Haven’t driven the IS350 (it may be the best car in the world for all I know) though my wife and I saw one in the parking lot and I pointed it out to my wife she said it looked like my car; my little Mazda 3 (really fun commuter car BTW). I told her it was in a much higher class and was a much better automobile. She said doesn’t matter still looks the same for some people that is all that matters in a car (I’d gladly trade up).
I know exactly what you are saying! I have been driving my BMW323i for 7 years and am still impressed. Although statistically it resembles a 90LB weakling!
Why do people put so much stock into 0-60 times? 1/4 mile times?
The point is this, the people who are getting these times are professional drivers, who for the most part do this for a living. The average joe, who does a daily commute back and forth to work drives the way traffic will dictate.
So for people to come to forums like this and get stuck on 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times seems a little silly to me.
Especially if you are talking about tenths of seconds here.
The bottom line in my opinion is simple, find the car that fits your needs, and buy it. The IS350 had everything I needed in a car....enough hp/torque, plenty of safety issues, reliability, resale, and the customer service after the sale. Is/will there be another car that will beat the IS350 in the 0-60 times or 1/4 mile time....of course. But to me, when you are comparing cars, just make sure you are comparing apples to apples.....forget about the price at first.....then look at the price after you have compared and see if the vehicle that cost more is worth spending the extra $$$$.
just my .02 of course......sorry saigonboi21.....not talking to you directly....just did a piggy back on your post
People do it because it's a controllable, measurable, and repeatable way to compare the straight line performance of cars. Just like people care about skidpad, slalom, braking, etc.
If a magazine tests car "A" and gets a 16 sec 1/4 mile time, then on the same day, at the same track, with the same driver, and the same tires tests car "B" and gets a 15 sec 1/4 mile time, it's a pretty fair bet that car "B" is quicker than car "A." It doesn't matter how trained the driver is or how much he/she abused the clutch. What matters is that the runs were performed in an identical manner. Same goes for skidpad, slalom, braking, etc.
The only flaw with these tests is that magazines rarely equip the cars with identical tires to truly measure the capabilities of the CAR. Tires alone have a significant influence on acceleration, braking, and cornering performance.
Finally, a "slow" car can feel subjectively faster than a "quick" car. For example, a Mazda Miata running the 1/4 mile in 16.5 seconds will probably "feel" quicker than a Lexus LS430 doing it in 14.5 seconds. Other factors such as suspension compliance, gearing, weight, steering response/feedback, engine power delivery (torquey or peaky), road isolation, roll stability, etc. all influence how a car FEELS like it's performing.
Use the test figures to compare the relative performance of the cars you're considering, then drive the cars to determine how they actually feel/perform in your hands.
Bottom line is this....compare the equipment of each car with each other....then compare what types of options come with the car...both standard options and additional options....once you have all that info....take a test drive....see which one fits your needs the best.....and the last thing to do is compare price....if one is more expensive then the other....then ask yourself if the more expensive car is worth the difference.....after all of that is done.....purchase the car...be happy....and enjoy!
Don't get so hung up on 0-60 times....1/4 mile times....etc
The comparisons are fairly easy....IS250 vs TSX.....
IS350 vs TL.....we all know which one costs more....but the real question is which one will fit your needs the best....you can't go wrong with either car.....I should know....I have owned both......just my .02
I just bought a brand new lexus IS250AWD. I am actually a long time fan of bmw and I can assure you that I am not biased towards Lexus in any way. I've actually always despised Toyota products for it's overall boring image. The New IS, however, impressed me enough to make me turn away from the propellor badge.
I do not feel that the IS is a better vehicle than the new 3series, I just simply felt that the car is every thing that I expect for the price tag. the hp number shown on paper may look pretty low, but I don't feel underpowered at all when I'm on the road. The car will definately go when pushed. I also own a 05' 545i, and i think the very simple fact that I don't feel like a snail when I'm in my IS250 is saying a lot about the IS. Now moving on to handling and driving pleasure, I have always loved and praised the BMW touch. All of the bmw vehicles that i have owned were a blast to be in. However, the Lexus offers a somewhat different approach. For the very first time I've been introduced to the "legendary Lexus quiet" and I'm liking it! I'm the kind of guy that got out and installed dual AC exhausts on my mini cooper because I love to hear my car roar. Yet I find the IS250 to be very attractive in the manner that you hardly hear anything until you really push the rpms. I found this to be a very different but pleasurable experience. As far as drivability goes, the IS250awd had been very good to me. The steering is not as acute as what i have been used to, but it also proved to be very comfortable and is still very precise at the same time. I was surprised to find that the suspension is quite hard! The road response was great and still comfortable at the same time. Again, not as acute as the bmws but its definately no slouch.
I personally love the interior and has not heard any complaints about back leg rooms from my family and friends yet. but then again that's something you have to decide for yourself.
I guess all it comes down to is that the new baby lex is more of a luxury/preformance vehicle as opposed to bmw's usual preformance/luxury style.
Drive both and see which one fits your bill the best. I did and I'm happy with the choice that I have made.
I disagree. Acceleration from a stop and rolling affects how well a car will merge onto the freeway, pass slow vehicles, and press the small of your back into the seat cushion (yes, some of us enjoy a fast car). Acceleration is a real world facet of performance that we use on public roads every day. Same goes for roadholding and braking.
as long as you are comparing apples to apples.....I see some people trying to compare the IS250 with the Acura TL.....not a good comparison.....it should be the IS250 against the Acura TSX
I think the IS250 compares to both Acuras. It basically offers TSX performance at a TL price.
Don't get so hung up on 0-60 times....1/4 mile times....etc
I'm not "hung up" on published times. I'm just saying that they are a consideration. The IS has a lot to offer and not everyone cares about how quick a car is. If the IS fits your desires for a luxury/performance sedan, you absolutely can't go wrong choosing it.
It is either REALLY FAST or REALLY SLOW.
You would think that there was some sorta middle ground... but ahh no there isn't. The IS 250 doesn't entirely have me sold because of the low hp issue so that is why I lean to the IS 350. The interior on either cars is amazing IMO, obviously.
I can't see the reason why Lexus didn't throw in the IS 300 right off the bat with the V6 out of the GS 300. We all know that it will find its way into the bottom-end IS anyways. So why in the hell have the IS 250?
Hmm... I think it would be fair if you added, "... but better than TL luxury."
A TL has absolutely nothing on the refinement of an IS.
Why do people put so much stock into 0-60 times? 1/4 mile times?
I don't concern myself with acceleration times when I'm looking to buy a car, but I can understand why others do. (It's a preference thing.) When gauging that particular aspect of performance, it makes better sense than looking at HP numbers. HP is only half the equation when one wants to compare cars. Here's a high school physics...
If force equals mass times acceleration (F=MA) then acceleration equals force divided by mass (A=F/M). It's often wrong to simply say, "car A has more HP than car B, so car A is faster." This ignores the respective weights of the two vehicles. A better indicator would be the power-to-weight ratios of the two cars. As the second formula above (A=F/M) indicates, a car with half the mass(M) only needs half the torque(F) to keep up. Which goes towards explaining why a 911 will run the 1/4 mi. the same as a 400HP 'vette.
And for what it's worth, HP is just torque times RPM divided by a constant (5252). So when you're discussing that a car has gobs of HP what your really saying is that it makes gobs of torque at high RPM (which is a very nice thing, indeed).
Of course there are other factors involved in accelerating a vehicle -- gearing being the most obvious, but I'm not feeling well, so I'll quit here.
"She said doesn’t matter still looks the same for some people that is all that matters in a car (I’d gladly trade up)"
Sorry, are you referring to "trading up" the car or your wife?
heh
That sounds like a comment she would make...better watch myself.
BTW.. I personally think that it's fair they used a manual car when possible. Why should Mercedes and BMW not use their best/fastest version of their cars just 'cause Lexus decided not to make the manual version we all wanted?!
What were the 0-60 times?
The IS 350 did very well against the 330, but fared sub par in slaloms and braking. This is primarily due to VDIM which can be turned off via a complicated set of steps.
The IS beat the 330 in:
0 - 60 mph by 1.1 sec (BMW 330i at 6.6 sec)
0 - 100 mph by 3.4 sec (BMW 330i at 17.4 sec)
1/4 mile by 0.7 sec (BMW at 14.7 sec at 95.1 mph)
BMW 330i beat the IS 350 in:
Braking by 10 ft (IS 122 ft)
600-ft slalom by 3.4 mph (IS 64.4 mph)
Figure eight by .06 (IS 27.1 sec)
The BMW looks great on the outside, but feels frigid and dull on the inside. The Lexus looks great on the outside and leaves you in awe on the inside.
I would probably choose the BMW between those two, but believe me; it is NOT because it can slalom faster than the IS. I never ever slalom my way to work or drive 0 - 60 mph from one red light to the next...
C350: 5.4
330i: 5.8
..it's not all about 0-60 times, as you can see by the 330i being the slowest. It's about the overall package here and that's where the BMW outshines every other car in it's class.
Finally, I wonder if anyone else is with me on this.. after spending 3+ months with the 330i the interior has really grown on me. It all in the small details. Like the interior door handles; the shape, the style they have. All the pieces seem to be part of a theme, of a piece of art. Where as the Lexus has Toyota parts (not a bad thing, just plain) like the interior door pulls and lock. For Lexus they are like, 'Let's chrome them, ya that's it'. The curves on the inside of the BMW's doors, arches and twists make it stand out. My point here if it's not clear.. At first I would have agreed that the interior of the Lexus blew away the bimmer's but I would suggest that it's all in the details and again that's were the 330i shines.
How so? I said the 330i won and let's see.. it did!
The IS350 did do well and I personally think it's a great car also but as yet another review says, it falls short of the 330i plain and simple. Not a bad car at all, just not as good
Okay, back to driving now.. Think I want to go have a fun drive through the backroads, ya that's the ticket! Okay is it brake pedal, e-brake, brake pedal, start engine, brake pedal or e-brake, brake pedal, start, brake pedal, e-brake off?.. :confuse:
C350: 5.4
330i: 5.8"
But hamlyn says that the 330i got 6.6s? I'm confused.
>
To me, lines on some of the bmw cars are pure poetry, both inside and out. Z4 and 6ers, and now 3ers. The best I can say about lexus, on the other hand, is that they are functional.
Really we should probably compare autos to autos since that would really compare which is faster (or faster drag racer) when equipped the same.
I usually compare what’s the fastest I could buy irregardless of transmission type so if the fastest IS is an auto so be it; it should therefore be compared against the fastest BMW the manual.
For me, it’s either manual or DSG so the Lexus would be an automatic disqualification.
I’ve been seeing many more 3 series on the road lately really taking a liking to the exterior styling :shades:
Not all drivers are built equal. Some are more equal than others...
http://motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0510_lexus_350/index4.html
Can't say as much about the 5 tho'
:surprise: :surprise:
Okay, E.F. Hutton, you've got thousands of people's attention, so spill it!
Why should BMW have to be handicapped with an auto when it offers consumers a chance to purchase a manual one that according to the latest M/T (the one I was referring to by the way..) does 0-60 in 5.8?!
They gave me a choice and I took it, mine's a manual!
Again, just cause Lexus didn't see fit to do a manual IS350, doesn't mean BMW has to play by their game..
Turning off VDIM disables all electronic driving safety features except anti-lock brakes (ABS) until the engine is started.
You ca disable VDIM by starting the vehicle with the parking brake engaged, tapping the brake pedal once (which makes it twice since you must depress the brake pedal to start the IS 350), then keeping it depressed, as you disengaged and re-engaged the parking brake twice.
If for some reason you miss a step and it does not work, continue depressing the brake pedal twice, and while keeping the pedal depressed, disengage and reengage the parking brakes twice.
The light that indicates the VDIM system is is disabled come on, and all safety systems are switched off.
0 - 60 mph by 1.1 sec (BMW 330i at 6.6 sec) 16.7%
0 - 100 mph by 3.4 sec (BMW 330i at 17.4 sec) 19.5%
1/4 mile by 0.7 sec (BMW at 14.7 sec at 95.1 mph) 4.8%
BMW 330i beat the IS 350 in:
Braking by 10 ft (IS 122 ft) 8.2%
600-ft slalom by 3.4 mph (IS 64.4 mph) 5.3%
Figure eight by .06 (IS 27.1 sec) 0.2%
I would regard that as a tie of performance and not a 330 win. Slalom is important, but so is acceleration. A 2006 Civic Si has a slalom of 68.6 mph (Road and Track), does that make the Si an ultimater driving machine than 330?
When one of the magzines handed the top position to a bimmer that broke down during testing, you know Lexus lost not because of performance, but some deep-rooted culture bias.
Why should BMW have to be handicapped with an auto when it offers consumers a chance to purchase a manual one that according to the latest M/T (the one I was referring to by the way..) does 0-60 in 5.8?!
U prefer manual cars
I prefer cheaper cars
U compare 330 manual with 350 auto knowing 330 auto is a more direct match.
I cannot find a Bimmer match for corolla.
U conclude 330 is better and it's Lexus's fault not offering a manual.
I conclude corolla is better and it's BMW's fault not offering anything below 20k.
Is it fun? Don't be too ignorant. Loads of auto 330s are sold everyday. Many people, me included, would like to see an auto vs auto comparison. Your preference of manual is your own problem, not that of Lexus.
The fact is, very few (maybe 10%, just guessing) manual drivers can pull out the advantages of a manual transmission. For the rest, it is just about the show and self-delusion. They could actually drive better in an auto.
I don't think I can conclude it's BMWs fault for Lexus not offering up a manual. Although when they do I'm sure the comparison will get a lot more interesting.
The problem with the figures hamlyn used and now you are using is that they aren't from the test I was informing people about.. they are from another test that was done when the IS350 first came out and wasn't in a comparison test with the 330i.
So let me say it again.. Another win for a 330i against the IS350 in MotorTrend's February 2006 issue. They decided to have a manual 330i go against an IS350.. I agree with that decision, others might not.. either way the 330i came out on top again.. twist this any way you want, but a win is a win, is a win.
ps. I would think a Corolla has no place in a 330i vs. IS350 topic.. beyond being completely out-gunned by these 2 cars.
Since the performance comparisons are trying to establish the “performance champ” they should equip the vehicles to achieve the greatest results.
If one of the vehicles offered a sport packed and the other didn’t it would seem odd to leave it out because the other one doesn’t offer it; even if “most” people do not choose that option.
If one of the vehicles offered a sport packed and the other didn’t it would seem odd to leave it out because the other one doesn’t offer it; even if “most” people do not choose that option.
Non-sense!
In that case, I can easily bring out the Audi S4 and MB C55 to beat the crap out of 330 and you will bring out the M3. Then the comparison has completely gone off-topic.
I am one mainstream car buyer. I only care how most 330s or 350s perform.
In that case, I can easily bring out the Audi S4 and MB C55 to beat the crap out of 330 and you will bring out the M3. Then the comparison has completely gone off-topic.
I am one mainstream car buyer. I only care how most 330s or 350s perform.
Most 330s and 350s perform 0-60 in about 20 seconds (just to list one of the many performance specs), after all most people don’t push their vehicle to the max.
When purchasing a performance sedan I want to know which can perform the best.
Equipping a vehicle with a manual transmission is not the equivalent of bringing in the S4 ( RS4) if it was, you’ve just made the case for everybody to go out and learn how to drive a stick
So then I went over to Lexus and test drove the IS 250 and IS 350... What performer... it had great response, good acceleration... and when you press the accelerator just slightly it picks up and goes...
So in the end, I am proud to say that today I am a proud owner of a Blue Onyx IS 350.
I am German and proud of German engineering and precision... But the Lexus was truly thrilling... you can keep your 330... Winner or not!
Engage parking brake
Tap brake pedal once and release
Press and hold brake pedal
Disengage parking brake
Engage parking brake
Disengage parking brake
Engage parking brake
Start the engine?
Hmmm, me thinks that you were probably running in normal mode on that 330i instead of Sport Mode. While it's been over six years since my last test drive in an Automatic transmission equipped BMW, IIRC there are three distinct operating modes for the Automatic equipped E90s:
1) Normal mode, provides comfortable sedate gear changes that enhance fuel economy.
2) Manual mode, kind of a quasi-manual, shifting only when you tell it to shift unless the OBC senses impending engine damage.
3) Sport mode, provides a fully automatic transmission with a shift program tuned for performance.
Hmmm, to my way of thinking, the language of option 3 is something of an oxymoron. :-/
"I am German and proud of German engineering and precision... But the Lexus was truly thrilling... you can keep your 330... Winner or not!"
A German that actually admits to willingly acquiring and driving a car with a slush box??? Seems rather un-German to me. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Yup...
This is the first ever automatic transmission for me... My previous cars have all had manual transmissions...