BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS

benb007

I just went through the same exercise and ended up with the IS 350. Here is my take FWIW...

The 325 has no factory installed alarm.

I also met someone who claimed that he was on his second 2006 325. The first had a gas tank that had leaked into the trunk and the second was in the shop for numerous electronic repairs. He and some others said that the 325 had frequent issues while the 330 was as solid as a rock. I agree with those that suggest that the reliability may be a case by case issue. But, this held some weight in my mind. I decided that if I where going to get a 3 series, it would be a 330.

The prices of the 330 gave me pause. My configuration came to 45K (this is with iDrive) and there where some 330is on the lot at my local dealer for over 50K. Yet, I was actually on my way to the BMW dealership to order a 330i when heard that the new IS had been released. I decided to try the IS 250 AWD...

Exterior -
For me it depends on the angle. I feel like everyone follows right behind BMW on exterior styling. I like the front of the Lexus but the rear of the BMW. The design of the IS makes the car look bigger than it actually is. I think that the look of the IS is sportier, especially with the 18 wheels. They are both beautiful.

Drive -
The BMW drives like a very well crafted German car. It was nimble and engaging. I did find the is 250 AWD to be somewhat subdued compared to the 330i. However, the controlled yet non-aggressive stance of the 250 AWD appealed to me as well. I like the solitude ride of the AWD IS. Furthermore, I liked the ride of the 350 and 250 RWD with the 18' wheels equally.

I didn't like the 330i with the sports package. It was just too hard for every day use in and around a city.

The 350 will absolutely put you back in your seat.

I want to say that the passenger sits lower to the ground in the IS (especially the RWDs which are an inch lower than the AWDs). While I don't have any numbers on this, the 3 series seemed to sit higher (more like a sedan).

Backseat -
A big issue in the forums. The back of the IS is small. I'm 5'10 - 145 pounds and found it very uncomfortable to sit behind me. I did not have this problem in the BMW. That being said, I did find that I could sit much more forward than I had realized and I could also do this very comfortably (as if I where driving an SUV). I set a third option on the memory seat which moves the both my seat and steering wheal forward. I rarely have back seat passengers. If I did carry passengers regularly, I might have reconsidered buying the IS based on this. However, we did take another couple out the other night and didn't feel akward at all sitting forward.

Interior - The keyless entry system on the Lexus comes standard. This is an option on the BMW and is probably the best and most used feature that I have encountered with the 2006 cars. However, what ultimately sealed the deal was the cup holder. I get coffee on the way to the office every single day and knew that the cupholders in the BMW would drive me crazy. I figured no matter how nice the BMW interior might be, I would hate it after having coffee all over it. The worst part is that it's located conveniently enough that you have to reach to the passenger side to get it. But, any spill had a 20/50 chance of landing right on the forward console (ie, gear shift and stereo). My mother, who has been driving 5 series for almost 30 years, took her 2005 model to the dealership to have them remove the shallow bottom. As, they say over at the bimmerfest.com, it's the ultimate driving machine, not the ultimate "insert whatever here". I also liked the paddle shifters and the LED lighting. I don't recall if BMW had those. The Lexus has no factory XM. Although I chose to live without XM until the kit comes in through the dealer, I do wish that I had it now.

In the end, I came accross an IS 350 with the luxery and navigation. I paid just over 43K ro a car that I felt had as many features as a 5 series or an Acura RL. For me, the IS was just a great fit.

Regarding the options, I think that the memory option is part of the the premium and/or luxery and/or sport package. My 350 has memory seating and I would imagine that the 250 has it if the package is right. I don't think memory is that important unless someone else is driving the car on a regular basis. Also, I think that the only benefit of power tilt is tied to the adjustments that it makes when a memory position is selected. To me, the power tilt and telescoping steering wheel is useless without the memory feature. These options did not play a role in my decision. Good luck in your decision, I had a difficult time making mine.

mikegiller

"Based on every published road comparison test, BMW 3 series came ahead of the IS!

So based on other peoples' opinions I think the answer to your question is quite obvious!"

I always thought you were an avid biased Lexus fan. Hmm, strange. Anyways, I guess that explains why the IS has no sales to date and the 3 has taken all those sales away from Lexus. Ok, gotcha.

Oh what kind of a world it would be if we all did what a magazine told us to do!

dewey

Oh what kind of a world it would be if we all did what a magazine told us to do!

Absoulutely correct!

Mag opinions or opinions from self-proclaimed enthusiasts mean nothing for a majority of people.

I learned this when my brother-in-law a few months ago chose a Lexus ES330 over a Infiniti G35 or the e90 BMW. Despite my opinions it was pointless in trying to persaude him towards a car that I myself prefer.

yaajer

My wife put it best when we were considering a 330i or the IS250/350.

The IS looks more finese/feminine, while the 330i looks more mean/aggressive.

Test drive a 330i to your local Lexus dealership and park it next to the IS model. See which styling appeals more to you. Then test drive that model and compare the two..

To each his own...really, go and test drive both cars as they appeal differently to each person.

jrock65

"MSRP on both vehicles was about $32,500, and the engine sizes were the same, so this would seem too be a fair comparison."

Actually, the 325i uses a 3.0L and the IS250 uses a 2.5L.

And the 325i is noticeably faster than the IS250, just like the IS350 is noticeably faster than the 330i.

johnny420

Both cars seemed underpowered. The Lexus was surprisingly loud with engine noise. Not the remote feeling I had expected. The BMW made you feel every bump in the road, no matter how tiny. This with the regular suspension, not the sport tuning. The manual shift was superb. The Lexus manual shift was very very nice.

I can comment here. I also drove a non-SP E90 325i this last weekend (a stripper model, if you will). If you felt every bump in the road with this car, podres, then this car is definitely not for you.

Comparing it to my excellent TSX, I felt the ride of the BMW to be quite a bit more compliant, and yet it did a better job of dealing with mid corner bumps than my TSX does, and the TSX does a real nice job itself in these condtions.

The 325i felt very solid. Where I was a tad disappointed was in the tranny of the Bimmer. It's clearly not as good as the Acura's, but quite a bit better than some have made it out to be on these boards. It has a bit of a rubbery feel to it, but I could live with it. The TSX's is automotive bliss.

Also, the 325i's power did not seem to be that much better than the TSX's, but I didn't have a chance to wring it out with the sales person in the car and in rainy conditions. This, and my car is fully run in, while the Bimmer was not. I expect the 325i would only get better with time.

I don't think I'd ever describe the 325i as being "underpowered."

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic. I'll be driving the 330i next. I've no interest in the new IS lineup.

suave_tequila

Ooh not at all, since I myself was thinking about the TSX while reading the posts before I read yours. Well can you describe your TSX a little more (I know this is IS Lexus vs. BMW but..) since I might not after all consider an IS 350 since I clearly like Acura a little bit more!! Thanks
OOh and 1 thing I will be driving a 2005 5spd Auto w/Nav.

mikegiller

WOAH! An ES 330 over an Infiniti G35? Really? The only way I would pick a more luxury oriented car would be if it could rip up twisty roads, or in the case of having two cars, one for speed and handling and one for space and comfort. A G35 is really, really fun but not as luxurious as an ES 330.

mikegiller

I find it sort of strange for someone to consider a 200 hp TSX auto over a 306 hp IS 350. Well, not incomprehensible but interesting (I know there are some reason). Have you even driven either cars? You might get a better understanding of the car than asking a random stranger...

suave_tequila

Yeah I should, its that I clearly dont have time any more test drives. Since I hate being in the Dealership while their trying to suck me in to buy their cars. Well I like the TSX since my older sis is buying her TL and I was thinking why not get a TSX! And yeah 200 over 306! Well this is going to be my 1st car so... And plus if I am getting the IS 350 I will add options to it and it will come out to 47K which is a little to much.

suave_tequila

I'm just saying that rigth now but I'll eventually change my mind!? Yeah I cant seem to make up my mind. Well I just got my IS350 brochure and im gonna check it out and see. Also this may sound stupid but I wish the IS had side mirrors with signals!! lol

rotoryfan

bebb007 - thanks for the comments. Very insightful.

aphall

Reliability is very important, but apparently it's not important enough if I'm swaying like this. If I get the extended warranty for the BMW, would that mean I'll have no money out of my pocket for maintenance? Or does the BMW warranty simply cover "routine" maintenance?

Here are my thoughts for the BMW 330i:
Pros: Excellent German handling, superb fit and finish of the interior, aggressive stance and exterior styling, more than ample room for my needs.

Cons: Supposedly mediocre reliability, and higher cost of ownership?? (not too sure of this one)

Lexus IS350:
Pros: Powerful engine, reliability, ventilated seats (these are cool, no pun intended), and more car for your money (options wise).

Cons: Little road feedback on the steering wheel, more body roll than in the BMW 330i (even after trying the sports package on the IS350), cramped cabin especially in the rear seat, no fold down rear seating, "feels" like I'm getting into a car worth less than I'm paying for.

I think for me, I just gotta keep test driving them. If I can get used to the Lexus handling and ergonomics, I will probably end up with the IS350. But the BMW made a huge first impression, so it's going to be an uphill battle for the IS350. Funny thing, I wasn't even considering the BMW 330i, until I drove one at the "Taste of Lexus" event.

merc1

The new V6 in the IS350 has both regular port and direct injection. Interesting huh? I like little details like that about an engine.

M

dewey

My warranty was bumper to bumper coverage except I had to pay for new brake pads.

The BMW warranty is a really good deal!

Both cars suit different types of drivers and nobody can claim that one is absoulutely better than the other!

Good luck with your choice!

gtoskyline

"Superb fit and finish of the interior"

Shouldn't it be put in the pros of IS350 instead?

gtoskyline

also, auto transmission vs. auto transmission , the plus should go to IS350 no doubt.

IS350: engine+, transmission+, interior+, reliability+

But a lot of people just want a BMW bagde.

dewey

But a lot of people just want a BMW bagde

And I always thought people buy BMWs for their drivetrain and chassis? Was it not because BMWs are fun to drive?

Thanks for enlightening me of my sole and only motive for buying a BMW: "The badge"! I heard rumors that Lexus owners dont care about badges and prestige! Is it true?

gtoskyline, sounds like you love the IS350. And I dont blame you because it is an outstanding car(although it is not my idea of a car that I would ever consider owning)! Enjoy driving one(assuming you are going to buy one)

dl7265

I heard rumors that Lexus owners dont care about badges and prestige! Is it true?

LOL Why else would someone buy a Lexus Camry ?

DL

aphall

Well, I would agree the Lexus had a superb fit and finish as well, but I can't shake the feeling I'm still getting into a cheaper car. I guess it has to do with the silver plastic that surrounds the nav screen. I think the GS300 has a better feel to the interior than the IS350, but then again, it is $10K more.

As for badging, I would say that it is true there are people out there that buy the BMW for status, but for me, it's how I feel getting in and out of my car everyday. If it makes me feel like I got my money's worth, then I'm happy. But I can also resent my car too if it gives me too much maintenance headache.

kdshapiro

"But a lot of people just want a BMW bagde."

But why spend $40K on a badge when one can get it at BMW parts for about $25? Now spending $40K on a reliable, (according to CR) fun to drive car that rewards with driver with lots of feedback is a different story.

jccai1

I've never owned a Lexus, so I can't speak for its reliability. But I did own a 2002 330Ci for 3 years. The only major problem I had was a problem with the dash gauge cluster (the turn signal indicators on the dash just went crazy one day though the lights still worked fine). The whole cluster was replaced under warranty. Had to replace the rear tires once a year, but that's because I was having too much fun with the car. Everything else was taken care of under the free maintenance program, including wiper blades. I had owned a 1999 TL before the BMW. I feel the BMW is every bit as reliable as the Acura, but 100 times more rewarding to drive! If I had the budget right now, I would not hesitate to get another BMW.

potemkin

"But a lot of people just want a BMW badge."

It's a bargain. It comes with two badges. I bought the car just so I'd have a place to display them. They're so nice.

kdshapiro

/snicker on

/snicker off

mikegiller

Because it is nicer......... I mean, this isn't rocket science. The car may have the same chassis, but it sure is a lot more luxurious. Comming from a level-headed standpoint it isn't as hard to see this.

dewey

The car may have the same chassis, but it sure is a lot more luxurious. Comming from a level-headed standpoint it isn't as hard to see this.

So why do people choose a Lexus ES330 over an Avalon?

1)The Lexus ES330 is more expensive than a Toyota Avalon!

2)The ES330's chassis and drivetrain is inferior to a Avalon!

3)And this point maybe more debatable but the Avalon's "fit and finish quality" and luxury is eqivalent or at least close to the ES330's!

Now I ask you why would anyone choose a Lexus ES330 over a Toyota Avalon? Could it have anything to do with that alphabet "L" on the hood? :surprise:

mikegiller

I would pick an Avalon over the ES 330 no doubt, but an 05-06' not 04' and down. The original comparison was made about the Camry and ES. The ES is updated to the ES 350 plus major interior and exterior design. A much more relevant comparison would be made then!

I agree with you in this case for sure, but the ES is simply holding over until the 07' re-design in which the Luxury will no doubtedly be upped relative to the Avalon.

PS: For some reason I am itching to say this piece of common sense but not because of you; Just because there are brand snobs out there who would pick an ES 330 over an Avalon, does not make a brand snobbish or evil! Same goes for somebody who buys a 330i over a G35 even though he/she likes the G over the 3 but likes the "BMW" aspect over the "Infiniti". Buy a car simply because you like it!

aphall

Thanks for the input jccai1. It seems like it's a case by case basis, and for those that I've talked to in person about their BMWs, they have found their cars to be very reliable. It seems to be that their problems are mostly electronic related and not so much the engine or transmission. All the more reason for me not to get the iDrive in the 330i. Less things to break down. I'll be posting a few of the quotes I've gotten in the prices forum. I'm using the edmunds service to get quotes from mulitple dealers.

kdshapiro

"Buy a car simply because you like it! "

Actually buy a car simply because it's your choice, your money. You don't even have to like the car to buy it.

jrynn

If Lexus really wants to steal sales from the 3-Series, why does Toyota keep making such screwy design decisions?

BMW has always had a clean, simple dash that works for people across all age groups. The original IS300 had a "chronograph" gauge cluster (and a stainless steel shifter) that only an 18 year old could love.

Ok, so in the redesign, Lexus "fixed" that problem. But ...

BMW, despite making cars with smaller overall dimensions, has produced a 3 series with a back seat that actually accomodates two adults. The new IS250/350 has a rear seat that only 2 hobbits could love.

What was Lexus thinking?

Maybe there's a marketing opening for the IS350 -- which is significantly more powerful than the 330 without being THAT much more expensive.

But why, given the horrible rear seat in the new IS, would anyone prefer an IS250 to a 325?

I'm not sure I buy the argument that Lexus has a distinct advantage in "reliability." Isn't it really the case these days that the vast majority of cars are free of significant problems, so that even if you can statistically "prove" that Lexus is "twice" as reliable as BMW, all that really means is that 1 in 100 rather than 2 in 100 cars have major issues?

And except for that rare buyer who HAD a problem car and is feeling driven to switch to a brand with a lower incidence of problems, won't driving dynamics, space and sticker price be what REALLY drives sales?

And especially since LEXUS' brand image is tied to "comfort" rather than "performance," I'm surprised they introduced a car that loses in that category to BMW.

Comments? Thoughts?

rats13

I'm with you on this...

You know I really would like to get a new IS but not only is the rear seat tiny the front in lack enough headroom for me. I'm not sure tall but I have a long torso so the new IS is too small. But the BMW 3's are fine. Heck my accord coupe is fine.

I'm a Lexus, Honda, Acura type person but I am seriously considering a 330i. I just need to work through my reliability issues with BMW :P

ivan_99

I don’t see the IS350 going against the 3 series, I see it going against the G35 Coupe.

Four doors don’t make a Sedan; I forget the measurements that determine this.

The G35 Coupe has similar power, and looks better too. It’s not as fast in automatic mode…but does offer a manual. I’m sure they’re already working on their next version (think 2007) so perhaps they’ll close the gap in the mileage department.

People who shop the 3 series sedan do not expect to travel cross country with 5 large adults; but I presume that if you’re buying a sedan there’s a reason you’re NOT buying a coupe…rear seats.

mikegiller

I won't argue whether you guys are finding the rear seats comfortable or not, but I do find them very comfortable. In the back of a 325i my legs had to be splayed apart, around the front seat, not in the IS 350. I was in a very comfortable seating position.

All times that I sat in the front and then in the back I was comfortable. This time (I have gone to see the car on 3 different occasions), I was also very comfortable, with my feat stretched nicely to the gas and brake pedals. My initial impression was,"I don't know if I can fit in the back this time comfortably". Alas, I did! Whaddaya know!

Some background info: I am 19, 5'11", size 13 shoes and now weigh 200 lbs.

Here's a pic.


I am clearly not a hobbit...

Oh, and I think the 3 series interior with the flat surface dash is butt-ugly. I know several people who think the same, so no, it is not uniformly loved like someone here implied.

ivan_99

Interior compare

dewey

Mike,

OUCH!!!!

Comfortable???? Based on your picture I am amazed you did not fracture your femur bone? Only a professional "leg contortinist" could claim comfort !

dewey

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think the Bimmer's interior looks Bella Bella.

mikegiller

My legs weren't pressing the seat whatsoever. I have a 31" inseam, legs like tree trunks but 33" waist. Not small by any means.

The most important thing to me is that I feel that important bond to the car

This is it for me. I am glad I made up my mind.

PS: I test drove the IS 350 for the first time just today. It was the sport package, the package that I was looking for. I tossed the car around like a rag doll with the salesman insde and he actually commented that I was an amazing driver. Who ever thought that Lexus salesmen didn't know how to have fun?

The IS 350 had exceptional handling and did exactly what I wanted it to do. I even managed to drift with the car around a turn and spinned the tires nicely out of the turn. The smell of burning rubber was all I needed to know after the test drive.

equan1

I agree that "beauty" is subjective. The 3 series has simple, clean lines - classic, calming, and subtle. That is, "Less is more?" Dare I say more "mature/evolved"? It's definitely a step up on all competitors. IMO of course.

tturedraider

I just read on a bimmer board info from a self-proclaimed BMW employee/insider that BMW is coming out with a 310hp, 335i for the 2007 model year.

mikegiller

There are always "insiders" and this and that. Whether or not the executive management makes that final call is what matters. Anyways, this is my take on it: With an increase in $4K base price, yea, it could happen.

Those Beemer fans need that kind of news in the wake of the IS 350!

I simply can't see BMW making a 335i without upping the price anymore, can any of you?

kdshapiro

"Those Beemer fans need that kind of news in the wake of the IS 350!"

It's a Bimmer. A Beemer is a motorcycle. And yes, Lexus needed something with more HP just to compete. They did, BMW and Infiniti will as well up the ante.

BMW already makes a 3-series that for a few years now has been capable of showing the IS350 it's exhaust, starting at $47K.

aphall

If you simply look at these interior photos for comparison, the BMW appears to have more leg and shoulder room. The picture of the BMW looks more open while the Lexus looks more enclosed. I dunno, some people like the tight feeling, but not me. Seemed too cramped.

dewey

This is it for me. I am glad I made up my mind.

Good for you at least you're a step ahead of me and made a decision!

I am indecisive because I cant find any car that currently excites me right now!

My top pick is a BMW 325 xi Touring. It is a much better car than my current 99 BMW 323i in every sense of the word but not as big as an improvement as I would like it to be. If a 330xi Touring existed, I would have one in my garage by now!

A year ago the thought of a IS350 SportCross Wagon intrigued me but that version is non-existent! IMO the lack of a stick and the electronic nannies that cannot be turned off are the main IS deal-breakers.

Most buyers dont care about the things I care about so I do believe the IS350 will be a big success assuming rear leg room issues do not prevail(despite that painless photo of yours)!

dewey

I simply can't see BMW making a 335i without upping the price anymore, can any of you?

The beauty of competition, compliments mainly to Lexus, MB, Audi and Infiniti is that BMW cannot afford to raise the prices of a 335i too high relative to the competition!

A few years ago the 3.0l engine in a BMW330i replaced the 2.8l engine in a BMW328i with a minimal increase in prices!

Long live the competition!

mikegiller

I am sorry I may have offended any Beemer fans here.

gtoskyline

I like competition. If BMW won't raise their prices for "335i", then Lexus must drop their prices on IS350. Hopefully 335i is a real thing next year.

kdshapiro

Of course they'll raise their prices. Doens't Lexus charge a pretty premium of the bigger engine of the smaller engine? Whye wouldn't BMW, why wouldn't Infiniti, why wouldn't anybody?

dewey

Of course they'll raise their prices. Doens't Lexus charge a pretty premium of the bigger engine of the smaller engine? Whye wouldn't BMW, why wouldn't Infiniti, why wouldn't anybody?

I am assuming a 335i will replace the 330i! And that is bound to happen sometime in the future!

Back in the 90s there was no major price increase when the 2.8l engine in the 328i replaced the 2.5l in the 325i!

Likewise there were no major price hikes when the 3.0l engine replaced the 2.8l engine more recently in the e46!

I read several months ago the the CEO of BMW pointed out the following change in BMW tactics: To pay far more attention to hp than BMW had done in the past!

I firmly believe that BMW will cream the competition if their models have equivalent or higher hp than their rivals! Why? Because the BMW3 remains the benchmark despite its horsepower shortfall when compared to the Infiniti G and the Lexus IS!

Displacement will become more affordable in the future for all marques! That is better news for BMW owners since one BMW HP is worth far more than one HP of a rival marque!

callmedrfill

Infiniti has had a 3.5 280/296HP for awhile, so the clock was ticking for 2-3 years.

BMW is only gonna go so far with 225HP in this market, much less TWO 3.0L engines.

I definitely see for 2007 the 255HP engine as base ($33k), and a 300+HP 3.5 selling for $38k.

Don't see this affecting Lexus pricing, though.

DrFill

nvbanker

Thanks for posting those great pictures, ivan. I own a Lexus - I like the "looks" of the Bimmer better, but it may be the color that appeals more to me in that picture. I can see though, that the Lexus has more of the features and options that I like. The BMW is, as usual, a little short of luxury features... Dash looks very cool though.