Chrysler and Daimler really leaves me confused on what would be best. Are their plants and union contracts a major negative for competition.
Well GM, obviously might want them. It almost brings a tear to my eye because Chrysler Corp has had so many ups and downs. I don't want Chrysler to close. I told Loren about a month ago this could happen and it is atleast in the news.
That is amazing. You get $70K or more to leave a company. Try that if you say are a worker in a hardware store. They act like they are giving you something if you get two weeks extra pay and a boot in the [non-permissible content removed]. Must be nice to be in the auto union. Or should I say while it lasts. Someday the golden goose is cooked. And yes, I agree, quite the good deal. I think most people would walk away happily with seventy grand or more in the pocket. Wow!
Question is, will they then be buying a Honda, Toyota, or a BMW with all that money. :P -Loren
Ummm, we are the government... or that is how it was suppose to work. OK, whom ever pays the most, is the government. Doesn't really matter, as the government normally is the problem rather than the solution.
Domestic car companies will just have to think smarter, and make more profit from each dollar invested. The workers will have make a little less money than their friends working across town in the Japan owned plant for a few years as their own company needs to heal. From advertising, white collar, blue collar, to the final sales floor, things have to change. The concept of the CUSTOMER IS THE BOSS has to seep into the psyche. Ya know, GM and Ford for too long thought they knew best and the customers had better like what they provided or else... well I guess the else was that they left. -Loren
I liked the author with the first sentence when he used "literati."
>The House Democrats' letter asks President Bush to act "aggressively" to stop currency manipulation by China and Japan and to push for tougher enforcement of WTO rules. The Bush administration did recently file a complaint against China with the WTO, but it did not address valuation of the yuan.
Fancy that. Someone in a discussion made fun of my point about currency inequality... :P
>The record trade gap caused House Democrats to fire off a letter to President Bush calling for new policies to end the string of five straight years of record-setting trade deficits. The letter's 15 signers, including U.S. Rep. Allyson Schwartz (D., Pa.), said the trade deficits were in part responsible for the loss of three million U.S. manufacturing jobs.
I wonder if they realize Bubba loosened the trade stance as favors...
Guys $300 Billion is a lot of dough. I do not think GM, is against Chinese sanctions because unless they plan to import cars from China, it will have no effect on them. Well wait a minute I am thinking a sec. The only other rational reason I think they might lobby against it is because if Chinese goods get tariffed then some of their buyers in China, wouldn't be able to sell their goods over here so cheap thus they wouldn't buy a GM, car in china. Well if that's the case GM, that's tough crap. We did lose over 3 millio manufactoring jobs in this country and what's good for this country is more important than your bottom line. GM, look at it this way the 110th congress could be saving y'all in the long run by eliminating cheap Chinese imports coming to the North American market. This will also prevent Japanese made imports made with the cheap yen from under cutting you also.
Imadozl97, you're absolutely right to be VERY concerned about trade deficit and currency inequality issues. I am too--very, very much so indeed. I wish there was something that could be done to change that situation, but options are few and far between these days.
These are problems which seriously threaten our way of life, not to mention our entire economic system. Their effects are key issues in the big three auto manufacturing sector which is being devastated by current events.
It's not rocket science, nor is a PhD in economics needed to recognize how serious this situation is--similarly any half literate columnist who can both walk and chew gum should be able to write articles like the one Lemko highlighted.
It's one thing to identify the problem, and yet another to solve it.
Insisting that a president intercede is one thing; for any president to be able to do something about it is another.(Nor should he or any other president be blamed for the problem either) I'm curious as to what you would do in a president's shoes??
How can we force Japan, China, Korea, or any Asian industrial power to buy north american automobiles, when most of what we produce aren't the types of automobiles they want (or can afford) in those countries??
How can we force any other country to revalue their currency to what we think it should be, short of threatening them with embargos (foolish), boycotts (self defeating); military force (just plain stupid); or other forms of intimidation?
How can we expect any offshore market to purchase our automobiles (or whatever) when our input costs are considerably higher than a similar product made in those countries? (We can't compete in those economies because our prices are just too high!!)
Unfortunately, living high off the hog at the expense of the rest of the world seems to be coming to an end whether we like it or not.
Ten years ago, large V-8 SUV's like Explorers, Tblazers handily outsold Camrys. Large trucks like F150 and Silverado outsold Camrys and Accords by several times. Take a look at the best selling list now, and F150 outsells Camry by just a little bit, but declines double digit in sales. More ominously, Explorers, Tblazers and Durangos disappear completely from the charts, they're the proverbial dinosaurs.
The two best selling SUV's now are the 4 cylinder xovers CRV and RAV4. The only Detroit competitor in that class is the Escape, and Ford has never changed the original design while CRV and RAV4 have two model changes each. The next SUV class up (Hlander, Murano and Pilot), GM and Chrysler have no competitors, Ford has the dud Freestyle and overweight Edge, which will not be able to compete.
For years big 3 counted on big SUV's and trucks for sales and profits, but consumers just migrated to other categories that the imports are dominant. And the big 3 will never be able to challenge in the small SUV class without really good 4 cylinder engines. And nobody really thinks they all of a sudden can start doing that now.
GM should try to form an alliance to assist Chrysler, and most likely, if Chrysler pulls out of this, then there would be a strong relationship between the two, platform sharing, component sharing, and cost savings for both parties. Of course, I could kind of figure out what GM had to do to turn itself around, Chrysler has completely stumped me.
I don't see why it's so hard for Chrysler. 1st it takes attractive designs which Chrysler certainly is lacking. 2ndly it takes a great interior with close gaps on interior and exterior panels. This is what happened for GM, and is what helped with the turnaround.
I gotta say that I feel a sadness about the domestic carmakers plight.
After studying the automotive field though, in detail, my next purchase is no doubt going to be a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. I am going to keep buying foreign until I see a better deal from the domestics. I have not found that yet.
...Chrysler in this predicament when they have so many cars I find desirable like the Charger, 300, and upcoming Challenger. Heck, I even like the Dodge trucks. Daimler pillaged Chrysler. Daimler should pay the North American workers reparations for this debacle if Chrysler goes under. Just another atrocity at the hands of these Teutonic thieves.
Don't you think your making your decision a bit to soon ? Have you given the 08' Saturn Astra a real good look ? Have you even driven the Lancer yet ? How do you know it will be a better car than the Astra ? The Astra, is very popular in Europe, and I think it is like #1 or #2 in sales. I think before you decide you should give the Astra atleast a chance. Saturn, also has awesome customer service like Lexus.
I agree.....I'd still like to see the Imperial as I think it would make a great Chrysler. The only major problem I see with Chrysler's is the interiors aren't up to snuff and they could use a lil' bit more gadgetology.
...really botched both the new Sebring and Avenger. Actually, the Sebring doesn't look as bad in person as it does in pictures. The Avenger is a very attractive car as I love the way the rear door kicks up in the back like a lot of 1950s GM cars. The interiors of both are terrible. I haven't seen as bad an interior in a car since the coarse Chevy Corsica. What the heck was DCX thinking? The Hyundai Azera looks better. Of course the interior of the new Mercedes S-Class also leaves me underwhelmed as well. The Germans have been sitting on their laurels so long they're flattened, dried up, and starting to crumble.
Agree. DCX, has gotten really bad at car interior and the sales are suffering because of it. Lemko, have you seen the 08' C-Class from Mercedes ? Dude the Pontiac G8, honestly has just as good of a interior as that car and it's what $15-20K less ? I looked at a G8 interior then clicked on the C-Class and actually said to myself I like the G8's interior better. :surprise:
Well, Daimler-Benz already paid a dear price, to the tune of $35 billion back in 1998 ;-)
That fact also casts a doubt on the validity of all those official trade-deficit numbers: Mercedes paid $35 billion for Chrysler back in 1998, now it would be lucky to get $5 billion selling the company back to Americans. That's $30 billion dollars handed back to us Americans. Mercedes sells 200k to 250k cars in the US every year, at an average, say $3k profit a pop (doubt it's even that high), that's only $0.6-0.75 billion profit a year selling cars to the US. In other words, the Chrysler acquisition debacle just wiped out two generations (40+ years) worth of MB exporting cars to the US. So much for the trade deficit problem ;-)
I know...I guess everyone has been wrong for decades.
Although I think Benz shot itself in the foot with the C-Class and the M-Class. The C-Class really doesn't stand out in its segment, while the first M-Class SUV was just awful.
If this stock market keeps free falling nobody will have the money to buy a new vehicle. My god are we headed for a major recession in which the rest of the world is included ?????
UAW having a say on what model gets built? Are we seriously to believe that they will exercise that right in the interest of building better cars or preserving obsolete job positions? The record of UAW influence in starving Canadian plants that have the best quality records do not speak well for discretion.
Not sure how nationalizing healthcare can reduce healthcare cost, without essentially letting the sick to die without adquate care. Nationalizing healthcare is not going to suddenly produce a couple million slave healthcare workers that can render service for next to nothing. If the pay is not there, people simply do not enter the healthcare field; if the large number immigrant nurses and doctors and nursing and medical students are banned as a consequence of the nationalization, the supply of heathcare providers will be even more limited. The problem with high healthcare cost is two fold: not enough people are willing to do it, and too much subsidized money chasing what few providers are out there. The manufacturers should never have joined the ranks of subsizers for healthcare. Workers should take care of their own healthcare needs, and as a consequence will use healthcare much more judiciously. Yes, some may argue that other countries have nationl healthcare . . . wonder why almost all the leaders of other countries, when they get really sick, they seek treatment in the US? When the citizenry are wards of the state, they are serfs of the state, as is the case of many countries; only the elite in those countries can hop on a plane and get treatment in the US. Not sure why we want to make this country just like that. BTW, it's not because American doctors are naturally smarter; the most talented doctors all over the world tend to immigrate to the US!
The bit about China slapping huge import tarrif on cars is simply untrue, at least since 2005, when it joined WTO. For what it's worth, GM was lobbying to keep the old tarrifs in place so its factories there could have an advantage.
Currency manipulation is another fig leaf. If Yen and Yuan were not pegged to a range vis. Dollar, those currencies would go to near-zero simply because their population have little faith in their own currency. Would you keep your life savings in a fiat currency printed by a non-transparent government? So does that mean democratic nations have a natural disadvantage in trade? Not at all. Think about it, making cars is a tremendously polluting process. Our system of relatively non-interventionist government is what keeps the faith of the world capital market in the US; that's what enables us to enjoy some cars without having to deal with the pollution of carmaking.
All I'm going to say is brightness, your capitalistic market is failing. The Elites are not putting back and have allowed to monopoly's to run a muck. The essentials that consumers need to live are bankrupting average folks and those average folks are beginning to revolt. That is why you saw a major power change last Novemeber and you will see alot more in Novemeber of 2008. So what that means is most americans disagree with your pseudo-capatalist ideology. They want our government to to oversee these "elites" and thus will elect people that are willing to do that job.
The unions have to step in an help sign-off on cars otherswise a Aztek, Cimmaron, etc might once again slip off the production line and the workers building that flop will lose their job. I have a lot more confidence with Lutz, being in charge that won't happen again anytime soon.
As far as free trade goes even people from the right have taken notice we have a problem. Are you saying Duncan Hunter, if full of it? I think Mr. Hunter, John Edwards, Wes Clark, Lou Dobbs, Dr. Savage are just as informed as you on our current economic situation.
So you are saying Big Red China manipulating it's currency by 40% and the Japanese, manipulationg it by 38% are no big deal and don't hurt domestic manufactoring. Well why are so many have said these numbers are accurate and I've not seen one independent report disproving these numbers quoted in the media by economist. You are the only person that has spoken against these numbers and while you seem pretty intellegent I wouldn't classify you as a independent "economist" I would stick all my eggs of confidence in. No pun intended brightness, but you just like I have very strong political feelings and differences.
Well take care and hope you and your family is doing fine.
Here's the deal from the consumers vantage point. I would only buy American cars because I believe what you believe. Honestly. But junk is junk and after many experiences with quality issues in my small world with th U.S. brands, I am sick and tired of waiting.
Put another way, if I got into a Cadillac CTS, and felt what I felt in December '06, I would have purchased the CTS.
To me, there is no product the U.S. offers that is even close what you can get from Japan, Europe and Korea. Wait until China gets going!
It's going to be a very bumpy ride for GM. The company could have been in WAY better shape if it opened it's eys long ago in the 80's when Japan began to offer top quality.
You know the rest 'cause it's history.
I still have a real bad tast in my mouth.
Again, take the CTS. Looks bad to me. I can sketch a car on paper that looks much better.
Bottom line. If the 3 or even the G had a GM badge, the competition would be designing to beat the combination.
Regards, OW
OW,
You and I have discussed this I think before pal. Roger Smith, the former CEO of GM, was the biggest mistake in GM's history. The guy was a legit beancounter pal and knew back in the 80's ordinary folks would buy some cheap POS GM cars. I still hate him for it! :mad: Not all GM, cars from that era were junk but I agree many cars were not lets say "great" :sick: I know my family use to gripe about what they had to build way back in the 80's but even the Japanese built Rust Buckets back in the 80's. The Germans made a few nice quality cars but were very expensive to repair and very unreliable which often were filled with electronic gremlins. One of my favorites from the late 80's early 90's was The Audi A200 Quattro. I'd still to this day would love to own a White 5-speed manual 5 cylinder turbo. The engines were bulletproof and the interiors were among the best ever made. I wished Audi would duplicate the A 200's interior because they haven't made one that great since IMHO. So while domestic cars were pretty crappy in terms of quality, I could say the same for Japanese and European cars from that Era. Yeah the Europeans were better made but they also costed a helluva alot more and thus were subject to their own failuresand breakdowns. So I would say all manufactors in the 1980's were pretty crappy IMHO. The 1990's-early 2000's is when the Japanese and Germans raised the bar while the domestics fell behind. GM, had some spotty good cars like the Eldorado's, Sevilles, Rivera, Aurora, etc, but overall I would agree the Germans and Japanese made better cars. Now that gap has closed and my prediction is over the next 5 years GM will meet or pass the Europeans and Japanese as I have seen both Japanese and Europeans not raise the bar again like they did in the 1990's. I don't think their is much more room for improvement and still make a profit in the volume segments. The 08' CTS, G8, Malibu, current Aura are just a few examples of that gap closing or exceeding the competition
Yes, I know this. The housing market is collapsing in some area's because big GM, Ford, Chrysler, plants have closed. I think in the Detroit News some area's in Detroit have seen a 67+ percent housing drop after the plant closings. This is very sad as some have lost a $100K plus on their homes. :sick:
I believe if Chrysler over the years hasn't angered and let so many consumers down with excessive product quality and safety defects Chrysler then refuses to cover and hadn't denied so many valid warranty claims that they would be doing a lot better than Ford and GM right now and may have even been able to better compete with Toyota.
Chrysler doesn't seem to realize it. People are also doing a lot more internet research before buying and why would anyone buy any of their products after seeing websites like the ones I've seen below?
They have the most uniquely stylish vehicles, offer powerful engines, probably one of the best looking interiors and best looking vehicles where they still can't sell. I strongly believe this is because consumers are getting smarter, finding out about other bad consumer experiences and doing more internet research than ever.
Here is a website I found while simply doing a search for "Chrysler Vehicle Problems"
The big 3, Chrysler especially need to do a lot more to improve vehicle quality, reliability, customer satisfaction and warranty service before expecting that consumers will trust them and buy their vehicles.
'08 Lancer with the CVT is going to be their biggest selling Lancer. The Air Show with the Navy Blue Angels was last Saturday afternoon in Tucson and the salesman I was going to meet to buy my '08 GTS Lancer from totally forgot about our meeting so he could drive the CVT Lancer to the Air Show to show!
Yikes.
Thing is, I told him that I was 40 minutes late anyway and that I still wanted a Lancer GTS with optional Sun and Sound Package and 5-speed manual transmission. The truck with Lancers is barreling towards Tucson now and will arrive any day. I told him to go ahead and come to Willcox 80 miles from Tucson with my Lancer in either Rally Red or Electric Blue(Blue being my top choice but either car I'd buy if he dropped it on my property from a helichopter).
But my point of this exercise is that I not for one second even half-course considered buying a CVT automatic '08 Lancer from him. Gotta be a stick, my car crazy buddies!
Onward and upward for manual transmissions! May they rule the automotive roost for decades to come!
Read the part at the end. It makes perfect sense for Daimler to do this. They can still raid Chrysler's A&R while notm being tied to it's profits... I'm not one of those "domestic-automakers are god" types but Chrysler is getting raped.
All I'm going to say is brightness, your capitalistic market is failing. The Elites are not putting back and have allowed to monopoly's to run a muck. The essentials that consumers need to live are bankrupting average folks and those average folks are beginning to revolt.
I can't stop laughing...I tried, really I did.
Here's the problem with your logic. The United States is a very rich country. Yes there is a large gap between the rich and the poor, but our "Average Joe" is very rich compared to most of the world.
Rank Country Median household income (PPP) 1 Switzerland $54,000 2 United States $46,000 3 Canada $43,000 4 New Zealand $40,000 5 United Kingdom $39,000 6 Scotland $38,000 7 Ireland $35,000 8 Australia $35,000 9 Israel $31,400 10 Hong Kong $31,000
What you are complaining about, rockylee, is that some people are a lot richer than you are.... even though by world standards, you're rich. Oh, and if you are a UAW worker, you are RICH even by AMERICAN standards. You only have two bottles of Gray Poupon while some others have five.
Here's the problem with your logic. The United States is a very rich country. Yes there is a large gap between the rich and the poor, but our "Average Joe" is very rich compared to most of the world.
I guess you can continue to laugh, while you sit in your ivory tower but many in my family and many of my friends are making half the money they use to because they either lost their jobs or had a major cut in benefits. So laugh, I don't think it's very funny seeing fellow americans lose so much because people like yourself, and perhaps in your family have not been harmed by the down turn in the service and manufactoring sectors. :sick:
Rank Country Median household income (PPP) 1 Switzerland $54,000 2 United States $46,000 3 Canada $43,000 4 New Zealand $40,000 5 United Kingdom $39,000 6 Scotland $38,000 7 Ireland $35,000 8 Australia $35,000 9 Israel $31,400 10 Hong Kong $31,000
I'd like to know where you got that info from because Norway, and a few other country's are on that top-10 list that should be ? :confuse:
What you are complaining about, rockylee, is that some people are a lot richer than you are
I don't despise rich people like you think but I do think many executives will ruin family's and ruin lives of people that helped build their business to make a extra buck. The rich in management are never happy enough growing the business without out sourcing jobs. We have became a very greedy society. It really makes me sick. I'm faced with it right now. My employer wants to raise my health insurance from $128 a month to $600-700 a month by the end of the contract. I working around the hazardous materials I shouldn't have to worry about my health insurance going through the roof while my employer was awarded $1.7 billion in contracts and received a $28 million dollar bonus in my division because we did such a good job. :mad:
even though by world standards, you're rich.
Am I ? Do you know what I make a year ? I am supposably in the top 20% in this country but that's hard for me to believe when I know so many people that make as much or more than I do. :confuse:
Oh, and if you are a UAW worker, you are RICH even by AMERICAN standards.
Not all UAW, workers make Big 3 wages. Many UAW shops only pay workers in the teens for a per hour wage. My Aunt is a UAW worker at Delphi, and makes like $14.50 an hour
You only have two bottles of Gray Poupon while some others have five.
Not all Union workers make the kind of money you think. Those days of making large hourly wages are for the most part gone. My generation will not make the kind of money like my fathers generation. In most cases they are making half the money and are paying with that half the money a portion of their benefits and retirement via 401K.
I'm just saying you here what the Big 3 UAW workers are making hourly but those wages only are applicable for pre-1999 hires. If you replaced a veteran UAW worker in the last couple of years at Delphi. You are making $14 an hour. If you replaced a GM worker your only making $18 or $19 an hour. I don't even know if they have benefits yet as I haven't spoke to my aunt in a loooong time. I also haven't spoke to my Step-dad in a long time because we had a verbal confrontation about 4 months ago but last I knew they were getting benefits in Febuary ?
So lokki, your facts are not all accurate. No disrespect but the real affects happening are no laughing matter.
Comments
Rocky
Well GM, obviously might want them. It almost brings a tear to my eye because Chrysler Corp has had so many ups and downs. I don't want Chrysler to close. I told Loren about a month ago this could happen and it is atleast in the news.
Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070215/AUTO01/702150398/1148-
Looks like the CAW, is at least getting a good deal for it's 2,000 workers.
Rocky
Question is, will they then be buying a Honda, Toyota, or a BMW with all that money. :P
-Loren
Domestic car companies will just have to think smarter, and make more profit from each dollar invested. The workers will have make a little less money than their friends working across town in the Japan owned plant for a few years as their own company needs to heal. From advertising, white collar, blue collar, to the final sales floor, things have to change. The concept of the CUSTOMER IS THE BOSS has to seep into the psyche. Ya know, GM and Ford for too long thought they knew best and the customers had better like what they provided or else... well I guess the else was that they left.
-Loren
Rocky
Rocky
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/16709872.htm
>The House Democrats' letter asks President Bush to act "aggressively" to stop currency manipulation by China and Japan and to push for tougher enforcement of WTO rules. The Bush administration did recently file a complaint against China with the WTO, but it did not address valuation of the yuan.
Fancy that. Someone in a discussion made fun of my point about currency inequality... :P
>The record trade gap caused House Democrats to fire off a letter to President Bush calling for new policies to end the string of five straight years of record-setting trade deficits. The letter's 15 signers, including U.S. Rep. Allyson Schwartz (D., Pa.), said the trade deficits were in part responsible for the loss of three million U.S. manufacturing jobs.
I wonder if they realize Bubba loosened the trade stance as favors...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Guys $300 Billion is a lot of dough. I do not think GM, is against Chinese sanctions because unless they plan to import cars from China, it will have no effect on them.
Well wait a minute I am thinking a sec. The only other rational reason I think they might lobby against it is because if Chinese goods get tariffed then some of their buyers in China, wouldn't be able to sell their goods over here so cheap thus they wouldn't buy a GM, car in china. Well if that's the case GM, that's tough crap. We did lose over 3 millio manufactoring jobs in this country and what's good for this country is more important than your bottom line. GM, look at it this way the 110th congress could be saving y'all in the long run by eliminating cheap Chinese imports coming to the North American market.
I agree with Congress on this issue.
Rocky
That's pretty funny. Good catch.
Fancy that. Someone in a discussion made fun of my point about currency inequality...
Yeah, but that is only one of three or four major issues hurting domestic manufactoring.
I wonder if they realize Bubba loosened the trade stance as favors...
Well that has been obvious hasn't it ?
Rocky
I wish there was something that could be done to change that situation, but options are few and far between these days.
These are problems which seriously threaten our way of life, not to mention our entire economic system.
Their effects are key issues in the big three auto manufacturing sector which is being devastated by current events.
It's not rocket science, nor is a PhD in economics needed to recognize how serious this situation is--similarly any half literate columnist who can both walk and chew gum should be able to write articles like the one Lemko highlighted.
It's one thing to identify the problem, and yet another to solve it.
Insisting that a president intercede is one thing; for any president to be able to do something about it is another.(Nor should he or any other president be blamed for the problem either) I'm curious as to what you would do in a president's shoes??
How can we force Japan, China, Korea, or any Asian industrial power to buy north american automobiles, when most of what we produce aren't the types of automobiles they want (or can afford) in those countries??
How can we force any other country to revalue their currency to what we think it should be, short of threatening them with embargos (foolish), boycotts (self defeating); military force (just plain stupid); or other forms of intimidation?
How can we expect any offshore market to purchase our automobiles (or whatever) when our input costs are considerably higher than a similar product made in those countries? (We can't compete in those economies because our prices are just too high!!)
Unfortunately, living high off the hog at the expense of the rest of the world seems to be coming to an end whether we like it or not.
It now appears to be a matter of when, not if.
The two best selling SUV's now are the 4 cylinder xovers CRV and RAV4. The only Detroit competitor in that class is the Escape, and Ford has never changed the original design while CRV and RAV4 have two model changes each. The next SUV class up (Hlander, Murano and Pilot), GM and Chrysler have no competitors, Ford has the dud Freestyle and overweight Edge, which will not be able to compete.
For years big 3 counted on big SUV's and trucks for sales and profits, but consumers just migrated to other categories that the imports are dominant. And the big 3 will never be able to challenge in the small SUV class without really good 4 cylinder engines. And nobody really thinks they all of a sudden can start doing that now.
Rocky
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Rocky
After studying the automotive field though, in detail, my next purchase is no doubt going to be a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. I am going to keep buying foreign until I see a better deal from the domestics. I have not found that yet.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Piece of...sediment.
Y'all know it's true, don't you? You're just afraid to agree with me.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Don't you think your making your decision a bit to soon ? Have you given the 08' Saturn Astra a real good look ? Have you even driven the Lancer yet ? How do you know it will be a better car than the Astra ? The Astra, is very popular in Europe, and I think it is like #1 or #2 in sales. I think before you decide you should give the Astra atleast a chance. Saturn, also has awesome customer service like Lexus.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
That fact also casts a doubt on the validity of all those official trade-deficit numbers: Mercedes paid $35 billion for Chrysler back in 1998, now it would be lucky to get $5 billion selling the company back to Americans. That's $30 billion dollars handed back to us Americans. Mercedes sells 200k to 250k cars in the US every year, at an average, say $3k profit a pop (doubt it's even that high), that's only $0.6-0.75 billion profit a year selling cars to the US. In other words, the Chrysler acquisition debacle just wiped out two generations (40+ years) worth of MB exporting cars to the US. So much for the trade deficit problem ;-)
Although I think Benz shot itself in the foot with the C-Class and the M-Class. The C-Class really doesn't stand out in its segment, while the first M-Class SUV was just awful.
We simply can't go into all subject matter in every discussion.
Sorry. It was just sitting there. :P
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070314/ap_on_bi_ge/world_markets :surprise:
Rocky
Not sure how nationalizing healthcare can reduce healthcare cost, without essentially letting the sick to die without adquate care. Nationalizing healthcare is not going to suddenly produce a couple million slave healthcare workers that can render service for next to nothing. If the pay is not there, people simply do not enter the healthcare field; if the large number immigrant nurses and doctors and nursing and medical students are banned as a consequence of the nationalization, the supply of heathcare providers will be even more limited. The problem with high healthcare cost is two fold: not enough people are willing to do it, and too much subsidized money chasing what few providers are out there. The manufacturers should never have joined the ranks of subsizers for healthcare. Workers should take care of their own healthcare needs, and as a consequence will use healthcare much more judiciously. Yes, some may argue that other countries have nationl healthcare . . . wonder why almost all the leaders of other countries, when they get really sick, they seek treatment in the US? When the citizenry are wards of the state, they are serfs of the state, as is the case of many countries; only the elite in those countries can hop on a plane and get treatment in the US. Not sure why we want to make this country just like that. BTW, it's not because American doctors are naturally smarter; the most talented doctors all over the world tend to immigrate to the US!
The bit about China slapping huge import tarrif on cars is simply untrue, at least since 2005, when it joined WTO. For what it's worth, GM was lobbying to keep the old tarrifs in place so its factories there could have an advantage.
Currency manipulation is another fig leaf. If Yen and Yuan were not pegged to a range vis. Dollar, those currencies would go to near-zero simply because their population have little faith in their own currency. Would you keep your life savings in a fiat currency printed by a non-transparent government? So does that mean democratic nations have a natural disadvantage in trade? Not at all. Think about it, making cars is a tremendously polluting process. Our system of relatively non-interventionist government is what keeps the faith of the world capital market in the US; that's what enables us to enjoy some cars without having to deal with the pollution of carmaking.
All I'm going to say is brightness, your capitalistic market is failing. The Elites are not putting back and have allowed to monopoly's to run a muck. The essentials that consumers need to live are bankrupting average folks and those average folks are beginning to revolt. That is why you saw a major power change last Novemeber and you will see alot more in Novemeber of 2008. So what that means is most americans disagree with your pseudo-capatalist ideology. They want our government to to oversee these "elites" and thus will elect people that are willing to do that job.
The unions have to step in an help sign-off on cars otherswise a Aztek, Cimmaron, etc might once again
slip off the production line and the workers building that flop will lose their job. I have a lot more confidence with Lutz, being in charge that won't happen again anytime soon.
As far as free trade goes even people from the right have taken notice we have a problem. Are you saying Duncan Hunter, if full of it? I think Mr. Hunter, John Edwards, Wes Clark, Lou Dobbs, Dr. Savage are just as informed as you on our current economic situation.
So you are saying Big Red China manipulating it's currency by 40% and the Japanese, manipulationg it by 38% are no big deal and don't hurt domestic manufactoring. Well why are so many have said these numbers are accurate and I've not seen one independent report disproving these numbers quoted in the media by economist. You are the only person that has spoken against these numbers and while you seem pretty intellegent I wouldn't classify you as a independent
"economist" I would stick all my eggs of confidence in.
No pun intended brightness, but you just like I have very strong political feelings and differences.
Well take care and hope you and your family is doing fine.
Rocky
Put another way, if I got into a Cadillac CTS, and felt what I felt in December '06, I would have purchased the CTS.
To me, there is no product the U.S. offers that is even close what you can get from Japan, Europe and Korea. Wait until China gets going!
It's going to be a very bumpy ride for GM. The company could have been in WAY better shape if it opened it's eys long ago in the 80's when Japan began to offer top quality.
You know the rest 'cause it's history.
I still have a real bad tast in my mouth.
Again, take the CTS. Looks bad to me. I can sketch a car on paper that looks much better.
Bottom line. If the 3 or even the G had a GM badge, the competition would be designing to beat the combination.
Regards,
OW
OW,
You and I have discussed this I think before pal. Roger Smith, the former CEO of GM, was the biggest mistake in GM's history. The guy was a legit beancounter pal and knew back in the 80's ordinary folks would buy some cheap POS GM cars. I still hate him for it! :mad:
Not all GM, cars from that era were junk but I agree many cars were not lets say "great" :sick: I know my family use to gripe about what they had to build way back in the 80's but even the Japanese built Rust Buckets back in the 80's. The Germans made a few nice quality cars but were very expensive to repair and very unreliable which often were filled with electronic gremlins. One of my favorites from the late 80's early 90's was The Audi A200 Quattro. I'd still to this day would love to own a White 5-speed manual 5 cylinder turbo. The engines were bulletproof and the interiors were among the best ever made. I wished Audi would duplicate the A 200's interior because they haven't made one that great since IMHO. So while domestic cars were pretty crappy in terms of quality, I could say the same for Japanese and European cars from that Era. Yeah the Europeans were better made but they also costed a helluva alot more and thus were subject to their own failuresand breakdowns. So I would say all manufactors in the 1980's were pretty crappy IMHO. The 1990's-early 2000's is when the Japanese and Germans raised the bar while the domestics fell behind. GM, had some spotty good cars like the Eldorado's, Sevilles, Rivera, Aurora, etc, but overall I would agree the Germans and Japanese made better cars. Now that gap has closed and my prediction is over the next 5 years GM will meet or pass the Europeans and Japanese as I have seen both Japanese and Europeans not raise the bar again like they did in the 1990's. I don't think their is much more room for improvement and still make a profit in the volume segments. The 08' CTS, G8, Malibu, current Aura are just a few examples of that gap closing or exceeding the competition
Just my $0.02
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
P.S. I wonder if the UAW workers already have a rope ready for him ? They need to tie him to a assembly line and have him do some real work :mad:
Unbelievable what a few greedy people can do to an industry.
Regards,
OW
Rocky
link title
Rocky
Chrysler doesn't seem to realize it. People are also doing a lot more internet research before buying and why would anyone buy any of their products after seeing websites like the ones I've seen below?
They have the most uniquely stylish vehicles, offer powerful engines, probably one of the best looking interiors and best looking vehicles where they still can't sell. I strongly believe this is because consumers are getting smarter, finding out about other bad consumer experiences and doing more internet research than ever.
Here is a website I found while simply doing a search for "Chrysler Vehicle Problems"
A Dodge, Chrysler, DaimlerChrysler Vehicle Problem Website
10 Good Reasons Consumers Should NOT Buy Dodge, Chrysler, DaimlerChrysler Vehciles
The big 3, Chrysler especially need to do a lot more to improve vehicle quality, reliability, customer satisfaction and warranty service before expecting that consumers will trust them and buy their vehicles.
Yikes.
Thing is, I told him that I was 40 minutes late anyway and that I still wanted a Lancer GTS with optional Sun and Sound Package and 5-speed manual transmission. The truck with Lancers is barreling towards Tucson now and will arrive any day. I told him to go ahead and come to Willcox 80 miles from Tucson with my Lancer in either Rally Red or Electric Blue(Blue being my top choice but either car I'd buy if he dropped it on my property from a helichopter).
But my point of this exercise is that I not for one second even half-course considered buying a CVT automatic '08 Lancer from him. Gotta be a stick, my car crazy buddies!
Onward and upward for manual transmissions! May they rule the automotive roost for decades to come!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Read the part at the end. It makes perfect sense for Daimler to do this. They can still raid Chrysler's A&R while notm being tied to it's profits... I'm not one of those "domestic-automakers are god" types but Chrysler is getting raped.
Rocky
http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/business/20070420_ap_factoryjobs3millionlo- stsince2000.html
Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070420/AUTO02/704200303/1148- - /AUTO01
The Chin-E classes are coming soon to a town near you !!!! :surprise:
18 surviving brands is absolutely impressive !!!!
Rocky
I can't stop laughing...I tried, really I did.
Here's the problem with your logic. The United States is a very rich country. Yes there is a large gap between the rich and the poor, but our "Average Joe" is very rich compared to most of the world.
Rank Country Median household income (PPP)
1 Switzerland $54,000
2 United States $46,000
3 Canada $43,000
4 New Zealand $40,000
5 United Kingdom $39,000
6 Scotland $38,000
7 Ireland $35,000
8 Australia $35,000
9 Israel $31,400
10 Hong Kong $31,000
What you are complaining about, rockylee, is that some people are a lot richer than you are.... even though by world standards, you're rich. Oh, and if you are a UAW worker, you are RICH even by AMERICAN standards. You only have two bottles of Gray Poupon while some others have five.
Here's the problem with your logic. The United States is a very rich country. Yes there is a large gap between the rich and the poor, but our "Average Joe" is very rich compared to most of the world.
I guess you can continue to laugh, while you sit in your ivory tower but many in my family and many of my friends are making half the money they use to because they either lost their jobs or had a major cut in benefits. So laugh, I don't think it's very funny seeing fellow americans lose so much because people like yourself, and perhaps in your family have not been harmed by the down turn in the service and manufactoring sectors. :sick:
Rank Country Median household income (PPP)
1 Switzerland $54,000
2 United States $46,000
3 Canada $43,000
4 New Zealand $40,000
5 United Kingdom $39,000
6 Scotland $38,000
7 Ireland $35,000
8 Australia $35,000
9 Israel $31,400
10 Hong Kong $31,000
I'd like to know where you got that info from because Norway, and a few other country's are on that top-10 list that should be ? :confuse:
What you are complaining about, rockylee, is that some people are a lot richer than you are
I don't despise rich people like you think but I do think many executives will ruin family's and ruin lives of people that helped build their business to make a extra buck. The rich in management are never happy enough growing the business without out sourcing jobs. We have became a very greedy society. It really makes me sick. I'm faced with it right now. My employer wants to raise my health insurance from $128 a month to $600-700 a month by the end of the contract. I working around the hazardous materials I shouldn't have to worry about my health insurance going through the roof while my employer was awarded $1.7 billion in contracts and received a $28 million dollar bonus in my division because we did such a good job. :mad:
even though by world standards, you're rich.
Am I ? Do you know what I make a year ? I am supposably in the top 20% in this country but that's hard for me to believe when I know so many people that make as much or more than I do. :confuse:
Oh, and if you are a UAW worker, you are RICH even by AMERICAN standards.
Not all UAW, workers make Big 3 wages. Many UAW shops only pay workers in the teens for a per hour wage. My Aunt is a UAW worker at Delphi, and makes like $14.50 an hour
You only have two bottles of Gray Poupon while some others have five.
Not all Union workers make the kind of money you think. Those days of making large hourly wages are for the most part gone. My generation will not make the kind of money like my fathers generation. In most cases they are making half the money and are paying with that half the money a portion of their benefits and retirement via 401K.
I'm just saying you here what the Big 3 UAW workers are making hourly but those wages only are applicable for pre-1999 hires. If you replaced a veteran UAW worker in the last couple of years at Delphi. You are making $14 an hour. If you replaced a GM worker your only making $18 or $19 an hour. I don't even know if they have benefits yet as I haven't spoke to my aunt in a loooong time. I also haven't spoke to my Step-dad in a long time because we had a verbal confrontation about 4 months ago but last I knew they were getting benefits in Febuary ?
So lokki, your facts are not all accurate. No disrespect but the real affects happening are no laughing matter.
-Rocky