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The only caveat that you have to be aware of is that if you leased your BMW, you MUST turn it back in at lease end with RFTs if that's the way it came from the factory.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I had to buy new ones for $1500, and then came the experience in the snow which is why we bought the AWD limited Sienna. When went up to the snow in our Toyota Sienna, these were simply the worst handling mud and snow tires. I felt like I was on the tea cups Disney ride with all the sippling and sliding. I hear there is a class action out of cleveland, would love to join it.
Shipo - Will the continental contiProContact SSR's work on a 2007 328i with SP? I mean will I have a much better ride.
Thanks for letting me vent. grrrrrr :mad:
Re the caveat, the RFT's have been stored in my basement -- where they belong. It's a shame that the Yokohamas will go to waste at lease end with less than one year's use.
The strict answer is "No". Why? Because the ContiProContact SSRs don't come in the 255/40 R17 size, which are needed for the rear of the car. So, unless you buy another set of rear wheels (same size as the front wheels), and then buy a set of four 225/45 R17, you'll have to make do with the various other RFT sets available (i.e. Continental ContiSportContact 2 SSR and Pirelli eufori@), or buy a set of GFTs (of which there are dozens of options).
Best Regards,
Shipo
I just paid a visit to Firestone and will receiving price quotes for the Continental rft tires you suggested as well as traditional ones (bridgestone brand - potenza RE 0-1R) on Monday. I haven't yet decided on going to traditional or GFTs or a new set of RFT Continentals.
Perhaps.. but unless any of us is privy to the development and testing process at BMW, I'd offer that the case for or against the validity of the company line is speculation. Leaving aside whether the switch to GFTs improves handling, it is very unlikely that use of RFTs would not figure heavily in the 3-series' suspension calibration, though, who knows, perhaps BMW is just that crafty! I don't think the EL42 is the best of tires, though, whether in GFT (Acura TL) or RFT (328i) form.
While I might well believe that BMW's RFT tuned suspension can mitigate much of the negative impact that come with RFTs; reducing that weight by replacing the tires with a lighter, more responsive and compliant units of the same dimension will invariably improve virtually everything about the ride and handling of the car.
The truth is, BMW's engineers are quite gifted, however, they cannot overrule the laws of physics.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Not sure what BMW did to tune the suspension for RFTs, but it sure didn't work on the early E60/1 E90/1 cars.
Highland Pete
Keep in mind that these are the same people that took away our dipsticks, oil temp indicators, oil coolers (in some cases) and spare tires.
While they are gifted people, you have to admit they don't always have the best interests of the enthusiast at heart.
This is where the RFT causes the suspension to go to pieces, when used across the temperature range we encounter, in addition to giving a hard edge to the spring rate, is much less progressive in my view.
In the UK it is now commonly recognised that RFT use falls apart as the temperature drops. As our climate can vary so much day to day, (being an island) we can get one good day another bad, and so on, it is that noticeable.
I agree there are differences in use of standard and sport suspension models, also involves 17/18" wheel/tyre selection. 17" on standard suspension is not a good combination. There are conflicts.
Highland Pete
One of the the most important components of the spring rate, perhaps. That's what makes me wonder whether a GFT installation (without changing any of the other components) would result in a compromise that would be too soft and flabby. It's said that the most important thing you can do for handling is to upgrade the tires, but this usually involves a shift to a stiffer, more sporting tire to improve handling.
The RE050A ride and handling characteristics do seem to deteriorate below about 5 C, but I'm into the winter LM-22s when that becomes an issue. I know the UK climate and road conditions well -- surfaces, tall crowns and frequent camber changes very different from the US, and a lot of days with the temp hovering at or a little above that mark. I understand that the switch to winter rims and tires might be a marginal cost-benefit proposition in much of the UK.
By the way, we honeymooned in Mull, staying in Tobermory after a great drive through Glencoe to Ft William. A few years later, the drive over the single lane Bealach-na-Ba to Applecross in dense fog and cloud did not sit well with my American wife! It's a haunted, beautiful land and sea.
I'm running Goodyear F1's so still relatively stiff walled, but do run well on the typical road surfaces around here. To be honest I still believe the standard spring rate is too hard, I'd change the springs, particularly the rears, to a progressive spring, but don't want to drop the ride height, so no springs available. The standard dampers showed up as a bit soft for primary ride quality, just a bit worse after removing the RFTs, but still too hard for the secondary ride. That is where the Koni FSD dampers sorted the issues.
I found the Bridgestone RE050's are just too jarring. A little bit sharper feedback but too messed up by the typical road surfaces I drive, to be an advantage. In fact made the car more nervous to drive fast.
Highland Pete
I have 328 Coupe with GFT
I took delivery of my 2007 328XI in late January 2007. It is equipped with the Sport package. The stock tires were 17" Bridgestone Potenza run-flats, 225 front 255 rear. I drove the car for a couple of days and then switched to my winter tires. They are 16" Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22 (205 front and rear). More on those later.
I switched to the summer tires once winter was over. Everything was fine for a while, but then I started experiencing excessive noise. In fact it wasn't just noise, but also very subtle vibrations felt coming through to the steering wheel. It was present at all speeds, but I could reproduce it best at low speeds when engine noise was low. I was concerned that my car had a mechanical issue (like a bad bearing) so I went back to the dealer and took a drive with the service manager. He confirmed that it was a tire problem, that there were known issues with Bridgestone's run-flats, and that they would be replacing my tires with 4 new Pirelli Eufori@ run-flats. The replacement occurred around mid-July.
So there I was driving on my new Pirelli's and everything seemed fine (noise-wise), except that these Pirelli's are the worst handling tires I've ever experienced. ANY slight curvature or bend in the road will cause abrupt motions in the direction of the road bend. It's nearly impossible to drive straight on these tires. But that's a story for another day.
A few months later I started hearing the exact same noise and feeling the exact same vibrations as before. I immediately went back to the dealer, again concerned that my car had some mechanical problem (especially because these tires were new and a different brand), and went for a spin with the service manager. He confirmed that it was again a tire problem. He even gave me the old wink wink nudge nudge and told me that sometimes BMW is too ahead of the game for their own good, referring to them having switched over to run-flat tires on the 3-series.
Anway, it was decided that my tires will AGAIN be replaced. However, with winter approaching we agreed to wait until Spring 2008, since I would be switching back to my winter tires shortly anyway. He said we would probably go with Continental tires this time, except that there is a problem in that they don't yet make a 255 width run-flat tire yet (remember that because of the Sport Package I have 225 front and 255 rear). He hopes that Continental will have a 255 width run-flat tire by the spring.
When I get the new set of four tires I'll be on my third set of run-flat tires from a third manufacturer!
Let's skip to today as I drive on my Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22 winter run-flat tires. Guess what? Yup. I am experiencing the exact same noise and vibrations now with these beauties too!
Based on my experience I have decided that run-flat tires are complete and utter garbage. Unless things drastically improve over the next few months, when spring comes and my tires get replaced for the third time, I will be requesting, or better yet DEMANDING, a set of 4 high quality normal, go-flat tires. I will also be demanding a spare from BMW in the form of a fifth tire and rim.
Good luck to you all.
Join the club.
Good luck, and keep us posted as your saga continues to unfold. I doubt you're going to get anywhere with the request to have BMW fit the car with GFT's & a spare, even though that would be my plan (but at my own expense).
In my original post I neglected to mention that I had made two attempts to troubleshoot the symptoms, first by going to my dealer, and then going to a second dealer in town for a second opinion. My concerns fell on deaf ears in both instances, with the service reps giving me the "RFTs are just noisier than GFTs ... deal with it" speech.
It was after getting nowhere with the dealers that I decided to call up BMW Canada customer service and give them a good blast. You see, my car issues aren't limited to just the tires. Literally 3 days after taking delivery of the car I fell victim to the infamous oil sensor problem (for those unfamiliar, defective oil sensors were causing intermittent false low oil level alarms). It took them 3 attempts to fix that, and although the problem appears resolved (knocking wood), I still don't know when/if I should believe the silly toy. Sufficed to say I was fed up with all of these problems and gave BMW Canada an earful. Going back to the tire problems, it was BMW Canada customer service who intervened on my behalf by calling the dealer and arranging a meeting with the service manager, and only after that meeting/road test did they decide to replace the tires.
Anyway, you can imagine the second phone call I made to BMW Canada customer service when the tire problem appeared again with the second set/brand of tires. The girl told me to take the vehicle back to the dealer immediately, which I did, and that's what led to my second road test with the service manager and the subsequent decision to have my tires replaced again, free of charge, in the spring.
I cannot make any guarantees, but I feel like I am in a position to make a few demands given my history and the fact that I'm already on file with BMW Canada. And furthermore, given that my winter tires (also RFT) are now exhibiting the exact same symptoms as the others, I don't feel it unreasonable to demand GFTs instead, stating a complete loss of faith in RFTs as the reason. After all, BMW is on the hook for the replacement tires anyway. As for demanding a spare, I don't see that as being unreasonable either considering my brother owns a 2004 325XI (previous generation) and it was sold with GFTs, a full-size spare, and a rim (not steel, but a mag identical to the other 4).
I guess we'll just have to see what happens. I must admit that the girl I've been speaking to at BMW Canada customer service has been understanding and helpful up to now, so I hope they don't fight me on any of these demands. But if a fight is what they want, they will absolutely get one.
May I ask which Michelin GFTs you selected and you're experiences with them?
I do want to let you know this site is having an effect on BMW sales. They have lost another customer.
So I'll switch to ContiExtremeContacts, an all season tire, and report back.
You mentioned your freeway ride was still not good on the Kumho's; how would you describe it?
I thought the 328Xi with sport pkg came stock with 225-45-R17 EL42s (Turanzas) in 17" rims all around? The tires you describe sound like those fitted to a 328i with ZSP.
The LM-22s are winter tires, and very effective they are, too. My car (325i ZSP) seems to easily outperform front drivers like the Acura TL, and base 325is with EL42s on snow, although it is a rear driver and behaves as such. They're not a full-on Q rated snow tire, but very good on freezing rain and ice. You can't expect summer tire smoothness.
The GFT's reduced the tramlining a bit but it is still there. Mostly I am unhappy about the "unplanted" feeling I have with this car. (to much sway at highway speeds). I believe there where some adjustments made to the suspension to compensate for the harsness of the rft's.
These "adjustments/tuning" should rather be reffered to as compromises by BMW.
What baffles me though is why the 18" RE050 on my friends 335 Coupe with sport feels so much better. I am going to ask him if I can try his wheels on my car and see what the diffrence is.
I'm very interested in this experiment, as 18" on sport do run much better here in the UK on later models.
Highland Pete
Me too. Mine tramline on just about any road. In fact, my tires occasionally do things I don't have a name for, where the car wants to steer itself out of the lane, sort of like bump steer, but there's no bump!
(to much sway at highway speeds)
Hmmm. You know, although all coupes are supposed to have sports suspension, due to a factory foul-up some coupes were made with "standard" suspension. I think this happened in early 2007. But I think you would have received a letter if this happened to you. And you would see a difference in fender gap between your friend's 335i coupe and your 328i coupe.
These "adjustments/tuning" should rather be reffered to as compromises by BMW.
Agree 100%.
I am going to ask him if I can try his wheels on my car and see what the diffrence is.
That's the perfect experiment to try, I'd love to hear the outcome.
My salesman swears he has a large client base and has not had ANY complaints about the run flat tires. he claims that there is a small minority of owners that are writing about the problems and I should have not worry about this at all/ Go ahead and BUY.
Car and Driver rated the 328 as the best sorts car for like the 10th time in a row or something. If the RFT were that big an issue, wouldn't a magazine like that be WELL AWARE of the issue and factor that into their evaluation. I have read articles in both Motortrend and Car and Driver (about the 3 series), and there is NO MENTION of any problems with the RFT.
The fact that these well recognized magazines fail to mention the issue makes me think that the dealer is correct in saying that it is a small minority of people having issues.
What do you think? How prevalent of an issue is this RFT problem. If everyone was having to deal with these tires, would it not be a top story with the top car magazines?
Hope someone can shed some light. I want to treat myself to a car that I will love driving, and if not for the tire thing it would be the 328. Otherwise, I may be headed for an AUDI.
I can't tell you how much time I have spent scouring the internet reading up on these blogs. I feel like Shippo is a close personal friend of mine now.
Thanks.
Well, I guess that settles it. After all, saleseople are paragons of trust & the sort of people who'd you'd just love to spend a weekend with.
Or not.
These tires suck. They have been a major issue for BMW, and no one at the "store" wants to acknowledge it. Imagine.
Knowledge is power.
Buy (or lease) the car, if you're that way inclined, but know that the tires are an issue. Shipo & others have presented alternatives.
The car, I think, is still worthwhile, but I'm very much on the cusp (FWIW). These bloody tires (tyres) are a big, big negative.
Best of luck in your quest.
I had no idea that the RFT issue existed until I assumed a lease 2 weeks ago for a 2007 328i w/SP. I took my car the BMW dealership to check out what I thought were "alignment" problems and was told the car is in perfect shape. The SA then "hinted" that the RFTs with SP are very rough and people have complained". I did some research and here I am.
I'm still undecided on whether to put GFTs on the car, save the existing RFTs (lease issue). If I go with the GFTs, I need to figure out the spare tire thing.
The RFT is a big PIA, but I got such a deal on the lease assumption number wise that the cost of replacing the tires is not a big deal for me.
Not actually true. RFTs can in fact be repaired, and typically just as easily as GFTs. The difference is that often folks drive their RFTs with zero internal pressure and that is what can make RFTs unrepairable.
Best Regards,
Shipo
But you have to know what you are doing. The tire techs need to be well-trained and careful with these tires.
It was a moot point at the end of the day since at 12K miles, the BS's were changed out for Conti AW RFT's.
I kept the tire because it was one of the first RFT's that actually worked for the intended purpose. I did not get stuck and it did not fail at 65 MPH for the 100 mile trip. I actually think it brings me luck from any additional tire road hazards!!!
Regards,
OW
At this point, and after reading all the listed messages, it seems like I'm not the only one with these issues. Just don't know what are the options now.....We should have researched the BMW (tires) more closely. I would have opted for a different car. I don't trust long trips in this car at all. Go figure....
The good news is a) you bought what probably is still the best car in its class, and b) there are many reasonable options for dealing with your bogus tires.
In my personal opinion, the best way to attack the problem of flat tires is figure which events are most likely to occur, and optimize for those. Leave the low-probability events alone. If you fit go-flats and keep a portable compressor and plug kit, and a cell phone, you'll be able to cope with most problems. For trips out of range, carry a spare.
Otherwise, if you want to continue with runflats, at least now you're aware of the safety, cost, and availability problems they have.
If you tell us the color and configuration of your car, maybe we can give you specific recommendations on tires...
1. For some insurance against a failure and being in remote area, could I purchase a 8" BMW front wheel (style 162) (8 in) and tire size 225/40 18" tire to throw in the trunk for an emergency and be able to mount that on the rear wheel as well as the front temporarily in case of a severe failure (say for couple of hundred miles)?
2. What's the cost of a style 162 front wheel?
3. If I could mount it on the rear, would that make confuse the DSC with the different tire width on one side?
4. Do the 2008 335I Sedans comes exclusively with the BS RE50A RFTs?
5. What kind of jack and where do you jack it up. My E36 had special place in front of the rear wheel and behind the front wheel to jack up the car.
6. I carry cans of tire flat sealant in my car now. Can that be use in RFT's?
7. I'm hoping by the time I replace them, the technology will have improved and the price will come down. Or I'll just replace them all with GFT's as I'll already have a spare.
Thanks.
I get the impression this is one of those issues that every one jumps on. I don't think the makers of one of the best cars on earth would risk putting these tires on their cars if they didn't think the benefits outweighed the disadvantages. People think everything is a conspiracy or coverup these days.
I think there is a greater risk of getting stranded in the middle of nowhere, or of getting a flat tire on a freeway...with no room to change it, or getting hit in the rear with happens all the time these days, then of having a major issue with a RTF.
Safety is way more important than finding a way to fix a flat tire. It won't do much good to save a few bucks on getting a tire repaired if you get hit or mugged trying to fix your tire on the exit ramp of a high speed expessway (which I have seen people trying to do???)
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Personally I don't believe that BMW was so noble when it comes to putting RFTs on their cars, I believe their only reason was economic. By eliminating the spare tire and jack assembly, BMW was able to reduce the cost of producing every car by several hundred dollars. By eliminating the spare tire well below the trunk, BMW was able to spend fewer design resources on engineering the rear of the car, not to mention the weight savings of not having the fifth wheel sitting back there.
As for safety, it is debatable as to whether a car with four RFTs and no spare is safer than a car with four GFTs and a full-size spare tire. True, there are times when it isn't safe to swap a tire, however, given the limited running distance of an RFT, it is very conceivable that you will not be able to get safely to a place that can replace the tire, and you'll end up stranded, potentially in a very unsafe location.
Personally I would MUCH rather have the GFT/spare tire option for the safety of me and my family.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Remember RFTs can be run low pressure for a while in some situations, before the warning is triggered. We have the ABS based sensor monitoring system in the UK, on most models, including mine. The drop before trigger is too much and tyres have given up within a handful of miles, once the monitor shows a problem. You can still get caught in a dangerous place with a tyre shredded to pieces..
Where is the advantage over the GFT? Worse if you don't have a spare to put on the car.
Highland Pete
Out of interest what wheel combination and what sort of ambient temperatures have you had, while running your trips? Also an additional problem, BMW don't seem to think we need winter tyres in the UK. So RFTs are a harder ride winter time.
Highland Pete
Seriously BMW has messed with their best attribute and it may take a few years before the Car Press starts taking them to task on this. By that stage I will have sold my BMW. I have recently read a review of the new X5 that describes the ride as "darting" or "squirrely". I have also heard BMW sales people reccomend the old X5 ride over the new one ,,,go figure.
I am shopping around for my 2003 325i for a good all season tires. I want to know if anyone in the list had any experience with these tires. Is the ride quieter?
Tirerack gives a good rating on this coupled with costco's price, I feel its a steal @ $440 (500 - 60 off on Michelin) with warranty, installation included.
http://www.costco.com/Tires/SearchResult.aspx?IV=true&YW=2003&MA=BMW&MD=325i&SP=- 0&MN=53665&cat=3961&MNo=53665&lang=en-US
Thanks for your response,
Steve.