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Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala



  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,565
    Yes, and also check out where Captain2 has also been posting besides this board. Had to take his Avalon back 6 times for an oil leak...........
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    True - my Av an early 05 and certainly a violation of that age old axiom - don't buy a truly new model car in its first year of manufacture. Even applies to Toyotas, but as I noted in my posts and referencing the eventual TSB a relatively minor design problem involving a drain hose. Since been fixed, of course, and while I found my dealer about as diligent as could be reasonably expected, I am disappointed with the general level of training on what was a totally new engine that is rightfully becoming the basis for many Toyota and Lexus products. And yes, my Avalon, one of those rare vehicles, that I actually look forward to driving every day - absolutely love the power, the quiet, the size, and most of all the economy.
    You guys are either missing (or ignoring) my point, however. Just like deanie, I would have no problem buying any 'Detroit' product - if all other factors were equal. But, they are not - and the drivetrains are the major reason why. The American manufacturers, for some reason, have never been able to build a smaller displacement performance engine and I contend that this is the primary reason that GM and Ford are in such finanicial trouble today. The US car market was handed over to the Japanese (and Europeans) way back in the 70's when all the Big 3 could do had names like Pinto, Vega, and Omni and were well behind (in all respects) of other names like Civic/Accord, 510, Corolla/Corona etc. Now the problem is even worse - that perennial cash cow of the American mfgrs, the trucks and SUVs are beibg discounted to the point of absurdity and GM, Ford, and Chrysler have very little presence in the car market anymore. In the meanwhile, here comes little ole upstart Hyundai/Kia - who has figured out how to build an engine finally - and can offer a Sonata that blows the doors off a Fusion, or an Azera that outbuicks Buick. Now there's a company that the Japanese needs to keep an eye on...
    Recently saw the 500SE advertised at $18k (about $2500.00 under invoice) and $30k F-150s advertised at 10 grand off.
    This can not be good for Ford or any other manufacturer that is forced to do things like this to move inventory. Don't imagine that Hyundai will be needing to do anything approaching this to sell Sonatas/Azeras, and Toyota has certainly been able to get almost whatever it wants for the Avalon. As deanie noted, GM and Ford are backed into a corner that the consumer expects high discounts on their products - to the point that quality has to suffer and technology lags - all because there is no money for them to do any different!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Posts: 1,106
    Recently saw the 500SE advertised at $18k (about $2500.00 under invoice) and $30k F-150s advertised at 10 grand off.

    Just one of the reasons I don't mind buying Fords. If one is stupid enough to make a decision (vs. a Toyota/etc) by using MSRP, then one deserves what he gets.

    The smart buyer knows what each dealer will typically sell at (true "sales price"), and compare those values. The even smarter buyer will know to wait for a truly good deal like one of those specials. I typically don't do the latter, because it rarely ends up being a car with all the options and color that I want.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,565
    "In the meanwhile, here comes little ole upstart Hyundai/Kia - who has figured out how to build an engine finally - and can offer a Sonata that blows the doors off a Fusion"

    Well, there you go again.

    Per good old Edmunds own tests:
    Fusion V-6 Automatic: 0-60 in 8.0 seconds
    1/4 mile in 15.8 @89.16 mph
    600 foot slalom 61.4 mph
    60-0 in 124.03 feet

    Hyundai Sonata V-6 Automatic: 0-60 in 8.2 seconds
    1/4 mile in 15.7 @89.6 mph
    600 foot slalom 55.7 mph
    60-0 in 128 feet

    Only in 1/4 mile did Hyundai win any of these tests. The others Fusion won, and in the handling category, 600 foot slalom, Fusion won fairly handily.

    Neither one would blow the doors off the other, except maybe in the twisties where Fusion had a definite edge.

    Facts please, rather than generalizations based on cars of the 70's. By the way, those Japanese cars of the 70's quickly turned into rustbuckets on wheels in any climate where they used salt in the winter, and they weren't very reliable either and they were expensive to repair. The only advantage they had back then was they were inexpensive to buy new.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    MRSP certainly means nothing buying anything - but actual selling prices are certainly determined by the consumer's perception of value. The Avalon XL will sell for something about $24k and may not cost a whole lot more to produce than that SE selling at $18k. Evidently, there are a lot of folks out there who perceive it to be worth the extra $6k. The point is that Toyota, in this case, making a bunch of money, Ford not - and it will not be a good thing for this country when (or if) the major automakers go belly up or we taxpayers have to subsidize them. I would much prefer to see that the consumer thought the 500 to be WORTH 3 or 4 thousand more, money that Ford could take and turn around and improve their products and their powertrains. As it is right now - don't see that happening - Ford and GM simply can't afford it!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Posts: 1,106
    I would much prefer to see that the consumer thought the 500 to be WORTH 3 or 4 thousand more

    It's not . . but then neither is the Avalon. :P

    Some people prefer to buy their diamonds at a retail jewelwer, too, instead of going to a discount jeweler and paying 50% of the "50% off sales price" of the retail jeweler.

    money that Ford could take and turn around and improve their products and their powertrains

    There's already the new 3.5L coming out, and the new 6-speed tranny, as well as improvements in the Duratech 3.0L in some vehicles, as well.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I wouldnt trust times worth a lick. In EVERY OTHER PUBLICATION out there, from Motor Trend, to Car and Driver, to Consumer Reports, to Consumer Guide, the Fusion V6 is spanked by the Sonata V6.

    I am very suspect of the numbers in the Sonata v. Camry. v. Accord test-those were the slowest numbers that I've seen all three of those models post.

    If you're going to compare vehicles, its best if you can find a comparison test under which the vehicles were likely tested in the same types of weather conditions, and best, using the same test driver.

    With that said, in the December issues of Car and Driver and MT, the Sonata, in a test against the Fusion, beat it, unequivocally. Again, in the March issue of Consumer Reports, the Sonata V6 beats the Fusion V6 soundly in all acceleration tests.

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    The Sonata runs in the low 7's, the Fusion gets closer to 8 - but it is not just that - the Sonata's engine smoother, more eager to rev etc. - all-in-all more refined. And it is a fun car to drive!
    The Sonata/Azera engines not quite up to the Toyota 2GR, the Nissan VQ, or the Honda V6s, but pretty darn close. Ford and GM would do well to buy their engines from Hyundai.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Toyota, or any other manufacturer of a high demand vehicle, could care less what you, me, or any individual, thinks its car is worth. They have more than enough folks lined up willing to pay the $24k - they know what it is worth because that is what they are getting. When supply catches up with or exceeds demand, then they care and likely will reduce prices. Fully expect that Avalon pricing will ease somewhat - something called the 07 Camry.
    Purchase decisions based on discounts as opposed to value will certainly keep you in 'Detroit' cars for some time to come!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Posts: 1,106
    Purchase decisions based on discounts as opposed to value

    I don't buy on discounts, I buy on price/value.

    I don't see the extra value in any Camry/Accord/Avalon/etc over my Five Hundred.

    I can't help it if the yuppies of the world are blind.

    And, oh yeah, I make more than most of them anyway, so it's not an issue of lack of money.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Hahaha yea, Toyota Avalons and Camrys are popular with yuppies. Oh, please do tell us another one- Im feeling ill today and you made me laugh.

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    and glad to hear you've been entertained - but let me just observe that I've never really seen an instance where sarcasm makes the point to the recipient that the person employing it wants to make. Instead, it just seems to create defensiveness and then no one hears anyone from that point forward.

    just an observation ... :blush:
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Posts: 1,106
    Hahaha yea, Toyota Avalons and Camrys are popular with yuppies. Oh, please do tell us another one

    Well, considering I live and work around lots of them, and I see what they drive, I can say they're fairly popular. Granted, some insist on the gold-plated Lexus, instead.

    Suffice it to say that I haven't had any complaints when others ride in my vehicles, or even drive them. But they'd still rather spend more money for the Acuras/Toyotas/etc. of the world.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that decision, nor is there anything wrong with their vehicles. But I certainly don't see anything worth paying the extra money for.

    Now, if I were trading in my vehicle every couple of years, then I suppose I could see the extra value in those vehicles. But then, I don't see the value in trading in a vehicle that frequently. I tend to drive them for at least 8 years before I even consider getting rid of them.

    I've got other things I'd prefer to waste my money on (like 50 grand worth of digital SLRs and lenses). And FWIW, the lenses hold value better than any Lexus, but those digital bodies depreciate faster than anything Detroit makes. :P
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Oh, pat, it was all in good fun! I've just never considered the Avalon or Camry to be yuppie cars, and a look of the buyer demographics of these vehicles seems to corroborate that.

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 13,419
    Yes they do attract yuppies, but on the low end of the scale (or yuppie wannabes).

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the age demographic for the Avalon (64) has historically been one of the highest in the industry. It has gone down a few years recently with the intro of the '05 - so yes there are some 'yuppies' as you call them understanding that the new Avalon is no longer an 'old folks car'. Don't know the statistics for the 500 but I would bet that the age demographic every bit as high as the Avalon. 'Yuppies' don't generally buy big full size sedans (SUVs and 'sports' sedans, perhaps) with Toyota or Ford (or anybody's) nameplates. Don't see a whole lot of younger folks out buying the Azera either - it being possibly the best Buick that GM never built!
    Heavy discounts on the front end of a car purchase certainly effect resale value down the road, so if that Avalon is costing a few thousand more it should also be able to hold a higher resale at least equal to that difference, otherwise it would make less sense from a strictly financial point of view. Some 'Blue Book' research will support this. With the popularity of leases, think there are very few that keep cars 8 years these days. But, if you do, point taken - that resale difference will shrink to almost nothing - except that you are betting that out-of-warranty repair costs don't also make up some of that initial savings.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Posts: 1,106
    except that you are betting that out-of-warranty repair costs don't also make up some of that initial savings.

    So far that hasn't been an issue with the Fords I've owned, compared to the Hondas and Toyotas my brothers have owned.

    You'll have to forgive me for using the term "yuppie" (never liked it anyway). What I meant was "well paid indiviuals".

    Perhaps on the coast you'll see more of those types buying Mercedes or BMW . . . down South, I see a lot more of them buying Toyotas or Lexus or Acura (and a few Hondas).
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Posts: 1,106
    With the popularity of leases, think there are very few that keep cars 8 years these days.

    Probably so. But then they aren't very fiscally smart. ;)

    Then again, if I were *really* fiscally smart, I'd buy two-year old domestics coming off of leases to take advantage of the depreciation, and THEN keep the car for 8 years.

    Somehow, I just can't bring myself to do that. Probably because I'm convinced that much of the appearance of domestics having more issues than foreign cars is the fact that those who buy the domestics (to save money) are also so cheap that they don't maintain the vehicles as well. I'd rather have a vehicle I've owned from day one that I know was well-taken care of.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and FWIW - my previous several personal drivers - [2] Crown Vics, {1] Caprice, [1] Aerostar, and [3] Suburbans - and all reasonably reliable (except the Aerostar), comfortable, and ran them all past 100k!
    just in case, that you thought my anti-American bias is some sort of disease!
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,565
    Well, maybe there is hope your disease can be recovered from! Maybe you should join FCBA (Foreign Car Buyers Anonymous) :)

    Let's see, how much have I spent for non-routine or non- wear item maintenance and repairs on my 2000 Taurus SES Duratech (that has 24 valves and dual overhead cams by the way) at 55K miles and nearly 6 years? Exactly $0.00 to date.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    actually I am the area chapter founder - my wife's and kids cars - all Nissans - and also never in the shop!
    you sure don't drive much - down here in Texas where we jokingly measure distance in 'sixpacks' - I am good for 30-40k/year!
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,565
    Yeh, but let me assure you a Wisconsin winter and tons of road salt and the resulting potholes will put a lot more age on a car than a lot of highway miles in Texas!

    They still let your drink while driving in Texas?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    age and driving conditions certainly as much as an influence on car wear and tear as miles.
    actually, I was certainly referring to sixpacks of Coke. But, until about 5 years ago or so, it was 'legal' to be drinking something else while driving. Since we have an inordinate number of pickup trucks down here, you used to be able to estimate vehicle mileage by the accumulation of aluminum in the truck beds!
  • chilliwackchilliwack Posts: 189
    Domestic automakers need to treat their customers better. We own a 1987 Ford Windstar van. The buying experience was horrific, and each trip to the service department meant standing in line behind a bunch of pissed off people who weren't getting service. There is usually one or two heated arguments going on at the front of the line.

    And when your vehicle is ready, it is not clean, there is some fluids spilled under the hood, there are grease marks and those filthy paper floormats left behind, etc. Forget about a follow up phone call to make sure you are satisfied with your experience. If the buying, service experience was up to par with some of the import brands, I am sure more folks would buy American.

    My father-in law had a Nissan Maxima. He would make an appointment and there was someone waiting for him when he got there, and when the car was returned, it was detailed. Then they followed up a few days later with a phone call.
    He later bought a Dodge product. Nasty experience from start to finish, not to mention a poor quality vehicle.

    Not a hater, just a realist who works hard for my money.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 13,419
    That seems to be an issue with the individual dealers not the manufacturer. I owned Dodges when I took it into the dealer for work there was no wait and the service manager eagerly and completely explained everything to me while we were at my car so he could show me what he was talking about.

    One time I took my sisters toyota to the dealership for service and pretty much ignored and then given the run around.

    So I could say that Japanese automakers need to treat their customers better. But I wont seeing that its a dealer issue not an automaker issue.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Posts: 1,106
    Exactly. It's a local dealer problem, not a manufacturer problem.

    I've always had great service at the Ford dealerships I've been to.

    Contrast that with the poor service I had when I was shopping on the local Toyota lot. At least the Dodge dealer was nice!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    those comment cards and surveys actually very important to the dealers. Had the experience of doing some work for a dealer that had Ford, Nissan and Toyota all at the same location. Was telling me all about how new car sales were a losing proposition and how he made a fortune in used cars and service. New car apportionments are based not only on dealer volume but also rather heavily, as it turns out, with customer satisfaction. Which is why, I guess that salesman is all over you to fill out a favorable comment card (he gets a few bucks if you do) or that the service dept. is calling you after the fact to make sure you are happy. Pretty much all the mfgrs. work this way, very self-defeating for any dealer/service dept. to be anything but nice.
  • aspen4aspen4 Posts: 22
    Any discussions on gas mileage.Heard it's not very good.
    Some one mentioned the lights on the dashboard cannot
    be dimmed at night. Can't believe that on a car in that
    price range.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Posts: 1,106
    Which vehicle are you talking about?

    If it's the Five Hundred, you can definitely dim the lights on the dashboard.
  • chilliwackchilliwack Posts: 189
    The Azera dash lights can be dimmed. Just not all the way to an off position. In regards to my previous post regarding customer treatment, point taken. I was ignored twice while car shopping at an unnamed Acura dealer. Told the manager he lost a sale and left.
This discussion has been closed.