Good theory on the Kia design. Most designs are derivative of something, especially in less than cutting edge companies.
I think the LS should have started off on its own design tangent in maybe 1995 or so. By then the car had plenty of cred as a legit MB contender. But Toyota has always had problems with the styling thing, so nobody is surprised to see a warmed over 1992 S-class still being offered. Very nice cars...but if I wanted that look I'd get the old MB that it copied and use the 50K I saved to have lots of other fun.
I am sure the SLR guy is fine, sounds like he came into a healthy amount of funds. But his uses for those cars can always be questioned.
The Cayenne isn't the first vehicle of questionable looks to have good performance. It's just not for me. But I have complete respect for those who buy it for what it is, and not what others think of it. Around here there are a lot of lemmings who buy those things, and they'll never see a gravel driveway nor 5 mph over the limit. Strictly posing conveyances for journeys to trendy stores.
Cars certainly aren't appliances for me. I buy what I like, cars with engineering and design I find interesting. Neither of my cars could be called very trendy, really. I don't care what most others think...I'd much rather have the appreciation of a weird old MB nut than the local trust-funder kids. And I do like to go on a little cruise when I can.
the '98-'01 Kia Sephia was purely Kia's own design and derived off of possibly their own computer's saved images of the original Kia Sephia that came to the States long about 1995 or so.
The front grille, the beautiful curving flow of the headlights and the sharp valance treatment all combine to blow the similar-era Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic cleanly and clearly out of the water.
After enjoying the '99 Kia Sephia bodystyle like that driving the others would be like driving thug military material through a war zone.
...... **saved images of the original Kia Sephia that came to the States long about 1995 or so.**
Aaah, I hate to bust your bubble ... but the originals were bought from Mazda off the 91/93 Protege platform model (design and engine) and replicated and cloned by Kia ...
The big difference ... the Protege's ran 150k++ .. and the Sephia's ran - well, ah, uhm, lets just say, after you got the 2nd tranny in em', put the 3rd dash assembly back in and held your breath they might maybe make it to 5,000 miles before the air compressor went south ........ other than that, they were puuuurfect.!
I must be looking at a different pic...where's the "beautiful"? It doesn't make me want to vomit or anything....but beautiful...not many modern cars can be called that, and I have to say it, nothing Korean.
I actually see a very normal automobile. Nothing groundbreaking, but certainly nothing offensive. Sorta like my 1999 Civic. It serves its purpose- basic and reliable transportation.
forgive Kia for whatever hell they tried to feed you long ago, will you?
Yikes. They'll never be a real carmaker to you will they?
They'll never be good enough for you, will they?
Come on, let me have it, full barrels ahead.
I know, Kia can do that to people. When you're good, people talk. People get jealous. Kia is good, you don't have to waste your breath convincing me of that.
Think about this. Kia is real. They are building a huge plant in Georgia. They have made me two Kia's that lasted many, many, many miles. My Sportage shows no signs of slowing at 110,350 miles.
Kia has made many, many, many , many Americans many, amny, many, many, many, many cars, minivans and SUV's that have passed the test and are performing very. very, very, very well. They'll jsut never, ever, mever, ever, never, ever be good enough for some Americans. Ya know what the point of this exercise is?
Kia doesn't care what you naysayers think! Keep spewing your babble to the wind because not only are Americans no longer listening to you but Kia isn't listening, either. They're busy building a future for themselves and their company.
Don't tell me you also wanted Pittsburgh to win the Super Bowl, too. :sick:
How much money did you donate to the "feed the ref so he'll make the proper call fund"? I have never, ever seen a Super Bowl so bought-off in my life. :surprise:
Come on iluvmysephia1, they lost. Just like Kia's going to do when the "Kia Alternative" (Geely) comes over to the U.S. of A. Most people who buy Kia's buy em' because of the warranty and are looking for a EL'Cheapo piece of transportation. I work with and know folks that currently drive Kia's and when I quized them of why they baught a Kia over other vehicles, all of them said price was there main factor. The second reponse was warranty. I asked them if they would buy a signifacntly cheaper chinese car, some said yes, maybe, nope. The majority of them I've quized in the last 4-6 months have said maybe. "One guy said hell I shop at walmart for clothes, groceries, tools, electronics, all which is made in China". What's the difference in buying a car" ???? "They are just cheaper, and with my prescription drugs costing nearly $400 a month, I can no longer afford my Lexus. "I hope one day I can buy a car here at Walmart". "I could pick up some groceries, buy some clothes, and tools, and purchase a car, to haul it all home in". I asked him how much he likes his Sonata. " I like it alot" It does everything my Lexus did. He said we got a good deal on it. I asked him a straight forward question, would you buy a Chinese car ? "He said hell yes, the reason being would because if my health problems get any worst I will have to cut more expenses". I asked him if he would ever considering buying a good used car instead ? "He said I like the new car warranty's. They are cheap enough, plus I don't have to worry about it breaking down and paying for it in ten years.
sephia, Don't Worry getting the first pick in the 2007 daft won't be all bad. Next yr the Seahawks will be pullling out the rods and reels early for a short Football Season this year. :P They could river fish for Sturrggeon :lemon:
I take exception at what you wrote. I have a Hyundai as my daily drive and I got the car because I started hearing about the improved quality of the car (even back then) and I thought I would take a chance and it hasn't failed me yet. It was a car that suited my needs and as it turned out reliable. The fact that it was less expensive was a bonus.
Would I buy another one? My experience with mine would make me give it stronger consideration, but I will not rule out other makes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The Cayenne isn't the first vehicle of questionable looks to have good performance.... Around here there are a lot of lemmings who buy those things, and they'll never see a gravel driveway nor 5 mph over the limit.
Article in newspaper recently said that VW and Audi have established an assembly plant in Slovakia. The main purpose is much lower labor costs than in Germany. One of the vehicles mentioned as being made in Slovakia was the Cayenne. Wonder if engineering will start to be established in Slovakia in the future, just like Honda/Toyota in US. Folks in US buying the VW, Audi models involved will then be able to talk about the fine Slovakian engineering and craftsmanship.
LOL...you and iluvsephia are great living testament to my counter statements to the many people here who belittle car companies that have an established reputation, and say their own Honda or Toyota are far superior...
Then, when someone uses the same argument against them...they cannot take the flak.....
Here is their premise , as I understand it :: ...Status symbols such as Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, etc....are all inferior vehicles to Honda ,Toyota & Nissan....since they cost more and are less reliable than the Japanese cars.
Now , if you claim that Honda & Toyota are status symbols of quality and price.....but are inferior to Kia and Hyundai...then they cannot take it.
HOw come HOnda and Toyota, which supposedly are so well built and cheap, that they only have a 3 year /36 K warranty (honda) ? And go for a relatively higher price ? NO discounts here......!!! BTW, how long is Toyota's warranty ? I had a Previa..but they only gave me a 3 year/36K warranty back in 1994.
Kia and Hyundai have excellent track records....have excellent warranties that support their vehicles...and on top of that...they are a great value....!!
I have had a Hyundai too...and have no problem owning a Kia. I think the Honda experience is more mythical than reality. Also the Toyota experience.
these supposedly status symbol Japanese cars need to wake up and see what the competition is doing, IMHO.
I have a Porsche, a GM , and a Honda now. We sold the Hyundai...but there were no problems with it. Nice warranty to back up the vehicle.....
Me and the wife each drive a hyundai for our daily drives and with both of them I cannot complain. FWIW my Elantra has been the most trouble free car I ever had.
We also have a Caddy that we use for "date nights" and I have a Lincoln Zephyr that I have as an investment.
As for the title of this discussion, just remember that perception creates its own reality.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
YOU: Most people who buy Kia's buy em' because of the warranty and are looking for a EL'Cheapo piece of transportation
Yes...and there is nothing wrong with looking for cheap transportation...or expensive transportation. Like people who would buy Honda instead of cheaper, more solidly backed Kia or Hyundai, there are people who buy Porsche or Ferrari or Mercedes.... Kia or used Kia would do the job....but they are not for everyone. When I am close to retirement, I may find a nice, quiet city where the cost of living is low, the amenities high, good public transportation, and not even own a car....Then use all the savings to buy $4000 economy tickets..since gas would be in the stratosphere by then....
"He said I like the new car warranty's. They are cheap enough, plus I don't have to worry about it breaking down and paying for it in ten years.
I agree with him. At his age, maybe it is more important to put resources where they are most needed...in this case...health care. I hoped and am particularly chagrined that Toyota and Honda..who are making alot of money....yet give their vehicles only 3 yr/30K warranty ( Toyota ?) .
I enjoy the vehicles that I purchase....regardless of what others say. I do not rag on others for thier choices....but I could....
the Hyundai that we had ...XG300 , gave us 0 problems. OK , to be fair, they did give us some free service because they posted horsepower was 196 hp....but reality it was quite lower. So the automaker owned up to it.
On the other hand, We bought a Acura TL ( honda product) that advertised 270 hp . No way in hell that it gets 270....most report that it is closer to 240 hp. NOW what did we get as compensation from Honda ??? Zilch..Nada...
ON top of that..we had to worry about the transmission issue ....
vehicles.... Let's see if the discussion can move in a different direction....IN favor of status symbols..( and let them get more flak too.. )
Status symbol cars are generally larger...and thus more safe , than smaller, supposedly more reliable vehicles...
This may not be politically correct...but it is simple physics, IMHO.
According to NHTSA, larger vehicles do better, in general, in collisions, compared to smaller vehicles.
Another statistic : IN general, in one's driving lifetime, there is a 66% chance one will be in an accident. That is 66% !!! So chances are good that there is one coming down the road..( though hopefully not) .
Which vehicle would you rather be in ?
Let the rolling of dice begin...Texas hold'em style...
Not always and not by a long shot. There are many small "status symbols" out there. Just the other day I pulled up next to an audi station wagon (an A3 I think) and was amazed that the thing was smaller than the Elantra I was driving. Heck I can't even sit in a BMW 3 series.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not by a long shot...I disagree with. I think in general the statement is true that most lux or status symbol cars are larger....and weigh more....
So there you go....
NOTHING against the Hyumdai or any other vehicle.
So do you all think it is worth it to buy a status symbol vehicle ? Or should one save and invest the money...and opt for a more economical vehicle...??
highender: Kia and Hyundai have excellent track records....have excellent warranties that support their vehicles...and on top of that...they are a great value....!!
Kia regularly brings up the REAR in every quality survey I've seen. That's hardly an excellent track record, unless the definition of "excellent" has changed recently.
As for Hyundai - its improved quality showings have only come about in the last 2-3 years. I have the annual Consumer Reports auto issues from 2006, 2005 and 2004...for 2006, the top three makes, by reliability, are (in order), Lexus, Honda and Toyota (with Acura at six). Hyundai comes in at number 13.
In that same issue is a ranking of the reliability of the 2001 vehicles from manufacturers. The chart shows the top four makes are (in order) Lexus, Toyota, Acura and Honda. Hyundai comes in at 17.
Again, that's not an excellent record...although it could be said that it is an IMPROVING one. There's a difference.
I have yet to see a Hyundai or Kia that beats a Toyota or Honda in build quality or refinement. (Or engineering prowess - where's the Hyundai that compares to the various Honda or Toyota hybrids or the Acura NSX or the Honda S2000?).
No doubt the Koreans are making rapid strides, but there's a reason they must offer that generous warranty...it's because too many people were burned not too long ago.
A manufacturer doesn't get an "excellent" reputation from 2-3 years of good survey results. By that standard, Buick easily beats the Koreans, as it has scored consistently well for several years now in quality surveys. Honda and Toyota have earned their reputations from delivering consistent, well-finished products over two DECADES.
I can not put down Toyota, though I think that Honda's offer me virtually nothing because they're designed by 12 year old's on their etch-a-sketches. Seriously, Honda's are dull and uninspiring.
Now, Scion with their xA and tC are offering great rigs and Toyota's Yaris is getting an extendo-look from me. I am not one to deny that Toyota is and has been on a great run for many, many years. I may nab an xA or Yaris 4-door sedan as my next rig. They are finally getting interesting small product out there that is getting my attention. And that famous resale value is virtually unbeatable.
But Kia is improving every year and the things that go wrong with them go wrong early and are fixed quickly and easily by the Long Haul Warranty. I know it's true-I have no reason to fabricate anything here. I don't own Kia stock. I am not a Kia employee. I just like their bodystyling, initial pricing and that Warranty. Plus, they are very, very reliable vehicles. I am sold on the fact that the thing that is driving down Kia's quality reports are early, petty things that are picked up and fixed right away. I'm not saying you'll even get those things with your Kia. But you could. To me it's worth it because they hold up for the long haul and they look great.
As far as the important things, the powertrain, Kia's are strong and swiftsure.
I wouldn't hesistate for a second picking up my 3rd new Kia in a row.
Not sure what kind of return I can get on it. It all depends on what I can sell it for and how much more I need to put in it. I should get 150 to 200% of what I put into it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
How are you getting any money out of a mass produced recently made people mover Ford product. Unless you won the car and paid nothing for it I don't see how you can get anything out of it
Is yours a 39? I love those early Zephyrs, especially the first ones. From what I recall, 39 was the last of the pure design (with the best being 36-37), and they got kinda bulky and heavy handed after that. Open cars and coupes are pretty solid in the market I think, and even sedans have respectable demand, as they are just such cool streamline/moderne styling. I'm probably one of few people in the under-30 crowd who likes this kind of design - same for Airflows, Tatras, Peugeot 402s, etc.
Ok that makes a lot more sense. All of these old names being revived by the major auto makers is starting to be a pain in the [non-permissible content removed].
OK...we are talking about charts and stats....right ?
Acura and Honda has the persistent transmission problem...and many people have had problems getting it fixed or changed. Most just got a jury rigged oil spray pointed at the 2nd gear.
The 2000-2003 TL had driver side wiper blades that cannot be lifted up. IT was a design error...and cannot be fixed. So while you can lift the wipers off the windshield of most cars, the drivers side hits the hood, and must be changed with 2 people.
Current generation Odyssey owners have the front warped windshields...and I was just shown a 2005 Ody with warped plastic below wiper blades...and this is after HOnda repaired it. The rear spoiler is off centered...and my friend went to my NEW Odyssey ( with only 300 miles on it) , and SURPIRSE! the rear spoiler is offcentered ! There is no fix....the cars fit and finish is bad....worst than the Hyundai XG300 that we had.
TOyota could not even fix my supercharger on the Previa, even though supposedly it was covered under warranty. The air condition was warm...even when turned on HIGH....but they refused to fix it. But us Honda and Toyota owners like to extol its virtues...some kind of addiction that it is...and always disregard the problems...and always mark the number "10" on all the surveys....since the addicition to Honda is so complete. I am guilty of it as much as all the other people.....
NO more. While they may receive high marks in their target audience....and ride the crest of the wave of their past success, it is my opinion, supported by facts...that their warranties are the worst...and their problems are many.
But don't let facts get into the way of things....it is politically correct to extol Honda and Toyota with their 3 yr/36K warranty. They are the "status symbols " of the day......
Let us disregard the newcomers...who are fighting to improve their products...while backing them up with long warranties.....
Can Honda and Toyota put thier money where their mouth is ???????
Kia and Hyundai are value alternatives to the status symbol honda and toyota. SEE ? The mere fact of mentioning that sentence will draw raised eyebrows...because the permeantion of the belief that they are always better...yet they do not back up their products. So we should advise shoppers to consider other vehicle manufacturers..who do a better job of backing up their products......Honda and Toyota, are you listening ?
JUst my 2 cents....from someone who has owned most of the above cars...except Kia.
A friend of mine has an 03 Accord V6 that puked its tranny a few months back. He had an extended warranty so it was covered....they replaced the whole 9 yards, cost the dealer something like over 10K with labor included. Shocking. I haven't spent 10K on maintenance and repairs on all 3 MB I have owned for a period spanning well over a decade. And that includes the fintail engine overhaul!
Acura and Honda has the persistent transmission problem...
Members of the Honda cult will tell you its meaningless and that the issue is fixed and no longer an issue so we shouldn't talk about it. Yet they insist that problems other cars had 10-15 years ago is a valid reason not to even look at them. Go figure.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Premium brands are like hot babes. These come in many flavors:
1. Porsche 911, boxster, Lexus: expensive to acquire but easy to maintain. Like a hot babe who is a good girl too. The one you want to marry and make babies with.
2. Benz and BMW: Expensive to acquire and expensive to maintain. Means nagging B****. Gives hard-time, have you by the n**s all the time.
3. Jaguar: Total disaster. The nightmare you always craved for and when you finally got it, its tear time!
highender: Acura and Honda has the persistent transmission problem...and many people have had problems getting it fixed or changed. Most just got a jury rigged oil spray pointed at the 2nd gear.
Those transmission problems show up in the charts featured on pages 82-93 of the April 2006 issue of Consumer Reports.
For the 1999-2003 Honda Odyssey (page 87), the rate for transmission problems range from "worse than average" to "much worse than average." For the 1999-2003 Acura TL (page 83), it's pretty much the same story.
(Which also proves incorrect your contention that either the magazine, or survey respondents, or both, are declining to report problems with their Hondas and Acuras. If that were true, the chart for every Honda and Acura would be an unbroken sea of red dots.)
Only problem is that many of the Hyundais from the same time period score either the same or even WORSE.
So even with those transmission problems, the Hondas still outscored the Hyundais, let alone the Kias.
highender: The 2000-2003 TL had driver side wiper blades that cannot be lifted up. IT was a design error...and cannot be fixed. So while you can lift the wipers off the windshield of most cars, the drivers side hits the hood, and must be changed with 2 people.
I can understand why those who perform their own maintenance would find that annoying. But considering that the majority of drivers don't, I'd say that particular problem falls into the "non-issue" category for 98 percent of all buyers.
highender: Current generation Odyssey owners have the front warped windshields...and I was just shown a 2005 Ody with warped plastic below wiper blades...and this is after HOnda repaired it. The rear spoiler is off centered...and my friend went to my NEW Odyssey ( with only 300 miles on it) , and SURPIRSE! the rear spoiler is offcentered ! There is no fix....the cars fit and finish is bad....worst than the Hyundai XG300 that we had.
Your friend's Odyssey is a sample of one. The fit and finish on my Accord is better than that of any new Hyundai Sonata I've seen (they all had varying degrees of blotchy metallic paint and bigger panel gaps). So, we have one anecdote that contrasts with another.
highender: But us Honda and Toyota owners like to extol its virtues...some kind of addiction that it is...and always disregard the problems...and always mark the number "10" on all the surveys....since the addicition to Honda is so complete. I am guilty of it as much as all the other people.....
You are a sample of one, which means that your story is an anecdote, not data.
If you can show me documented proof (and that doesn't mean you, your brother-in-law and the next-door neighbor) that Honda and Toyota owners are systematically hiding problems with their vehicles when responding to surveys, then I will believe you.
You will also have to show why Honda and Toyota owners are more likely to lie than owners of other marques.
It is better for a new vehicle owner if that particular make scores well in quality surveys, whether it is a Honda, a Buick, a Hyundai or a Mercedes.
Good quality scores, over a long period of time, will lead to better resale values. A new vehicle is a considerable investment for most people. Taking those factors into account, ALL new-vehicle owners have a vested interest in making sure that their vehicle scores well in quality surveys (especially one as influential as the one conducted by Consumer Reports).
If anything, buyers of European and domestic luxury cars have even MORE incentive to lie than Honda and Toyota owners, but, judging by the low scores those marques achieve in the Consumer Reports survey, they apparently aren't (or they are too dumb to do so, which I highly doubt).
highender: NO more. While they may receive high marks in their target audience....and ride the crest of the wave of their past success, it is my opinion, supported by facts...that their warranties are the worst...and their problems are many.
It is also supported by facts that Hyundai and Kia had to offer those generous warranties because their quality WAS "the worst." They aren't doing it out of the goodness of their corporate hearts. They had to rebuild their credibility in the marketplace and encourage buyers to take a gamble on their products. Fortunately, Hyundai, at least, appears to have gotten its act together, so the effort has borne fruit.
As for the contention that the "problems" with Honda and Toyota are "many"...so far I've seen only your anecdotes (which I can counter with my friends' experiences and THEIR Hondas, basically making it a wash).
I'll stick with my "charts and graphs."
highender: But don't let facts get into the way of things....it is politically correct to extol Honda and Toyota with their 3 yr/36K warranty. They are the "status symbols " of the day......
You've offered no verifiable facts - just anecdotes.
highender: Let us disregard the newcomers...who are fighting to improve their products...while backing them up with long warranties.....
I've never said that we should "disregard" the newcomers, or denied that Hyundai (although not Kia) has improved over the past few years. (Incidentally, Hyundai has been in the U.S. market for 20 years. I hardly consider it to be a newcomer at this point.)
I specifically took issue with your assertion in your prior post that these two marques have "excellent" track records. They don't. They are GETTING BETTER, but that is different from having an excellent track record.
And you still haven't offered up any Hyundai efforts that match the engineering prowess displayed by the Honda and Toyota hybrids, Acura NSX and Honda S2000.
highender: Kia and Hyundai are value alternatives to the status symbol honda and toyota. SEE ? The mere fact of mentioning that sentence will draw raised eyebrows...because the permeantion of the belief that they are always better...yet they do not back up their products.
There is a difference between being a value alternative to a product and being BETTER than (or even equal to) a product.
I have no quarrel with casting a Hyundai as the value alternative to a Honda or Toyota. You do get a lot for your money, including an industry-leading warranty. They are not, however, BETTER than - or equal to - a Honda or Toyota from a reliability standpoint, let alone an engineering or sophistication standpoint. Even the Edmunds.com test of V-6 sedans notes that Hyundai basically benchmarked the last-generation of Honda and Toyota sedans when designing the Sonata.
Those transmission problems show up in the charts featured on pages 82-93 of the April 2006 issue of Consumer Reports.
For the 1999-2003 Honda Odyssey (page 87), the rate for transmission problems range from "worse than average" to "much worse than average." For the 1999-2003 Acura TL (page 83), it's pretty much the same story.
And with transmission being a vital part of the car....more important , than , say, the number of cup holders.... I would say that it is a major ....major problem. Yet when the survey asks the Honda diehards ( I could be one of them) HOw would you rate the car...most would mark 9 or 10....with 10 being the highest. All I am saying is that maybe many owners are "blinded " by the name cache, or status of these vehicles as "reliable" or " quality" , that if something untoward happens, they dismiss the problem.......
To Honda's credit, they are trying to fix all the tranny's, though they did give some people a hard time.
grbeck:(Which also proves incorrect your contention that either the magazine, or survey respondents, or both, are declining to report problems with their Hondas and Acuras. If that were true, the chart for every Honda and Acura would be an unbroken sea of red dots.)
Boy...you got the longest post yet.
They report the problems....but on scoring system...from 1 being the worst, to 10 being the best....they may consistently mark the higher score. That is not being objective, IMO. The preponderance of red dots (meaning good quality ) is there. Maybe not a sea as in Pacific Ocean...but definitely a sea as in Indian Ocean....
In your mind I'd probably fall in that category since I passed up Lexus and Acura to buy an XKR. I'd debate the quality tag tho as Jaguar is second only to Lexus in initial vehicle quality but I won't debate that issue.
I bought what I bought because I like what I like. I have a 100,000 mile 7 year top to bottom warranty with free scheduled maintenance for the first 50,000 miles. I see 4 year old XKR's go for about 40k with no issues and I'll easily get out of it in pure pleasure what I lose on it so its not really a loss as far as I'm concerned and for me its a reasonable expense.
I did look at the Lexus SC430 but it never really caught on with me. The SL500 while extremely beautiful is also extremely costly with crap electronics. The BMW 6 series is also costly and not as nice lines with the top up as the Jag in my opinion. I looked at the Cadillac XLR but they have got to be smoking crack if they think I’ll start at $85k for a car with plastic panels in it. I looked at the Corvette but I’m at a place where “this is really nice” trumps “this is really fast” and it also felt a little chinzy for this price point. Acura doesn't offer a convertible or it would have gotten a look. I'm sure they'll be addressing that market segment by 2009 when I go look for my next toy and I think Acura is an excellent car.
I say someone mention heritage and for me I could give a whit about that, I like the creature comfort, style, the look of the car and how it performs when I goose it a bit. I had a list centered around performance and features that’s roughly like so:
Performance Reliability Electronics Cost of Ownership Loaner Policy Lustability (my own for the car, not how I saw its impact on mine lol)
Across this matrix the Jaguar scored the highest (its actually 22 categories scored on a 1-10 basis) so it was an easy decision for me.
I have no problem with my Jaguar S-Type, complimentary mainainance and it's been such a joy to drive. Just cracked the 50,000 mile mark a few days ago too. By the time the new S-Type rolls out I should have over 80,000 miles... and I am feeling pretty confident with its quality.
Jaguar today is different from the Jaguar 20 years ago.
Only problem is that many of the Hyundais from the same time period score either the same or even WORSE.
So even with those transmission problems, the Hondas still outscored the Hyundais, let alone the Kias.
That is what I mean...Hyundai owners may be more critical of their car....because there is less loyalty, and maybe they can be more objective when scoring. YOu may think you are objective, but many people go by the street cred... So the data may be skewed. And it will not be the first time...
me : The 2000-2003 TL had driver side wiper blades that cannot be lifted up. IT was a design error...and cannot be fixed. So while you can lift the wipers off the windshield of most cars, the drivers side hits the hood, and must be changed with 2 people.
grbeck:I can understand why those who perform their own maintenance would find that annoying. But considering that the majority of drivers don't, I'd say that particular problem falls into the "non-issue" category for 98 percent of all buyers.
SEE..you are the perfect example of this devotion to Honda/Acura. The car maker designed this car....and the hood is infringing upon the wiper blade ( driver side ). Hyundai at least got this correct. It is quite simple....you design something...and you test it...and make sure things don;t hit each other when in use. When I bought my 2004 TL...my friend tried it..and when the drivers wiper blade cleared the hood, he said...""well, at least they corrected the problem...they did nothing for my 2002 TL...and said that is the way it goes..."
Sounds corny...eh ? Design problem,,and you explain it away like it is a non issue..... ??!!
Transmission....must be a non-issue also, eh ?
ME:: Current generation Odyssey owners have the front warped windshields...and I was just shown a 2005 Ody with warped plastic below wiper blades...and this is after HOnda repaired it. The rear spoiler is off centered...and my friend went to my NEW Odyssey ( with only 300 miles on it) , and SURPIRSE! the rear spoiler is offcentered ! There is no fix....the cars fit and finish is bad....worst than the Hyundai XG300 that we had.
grbeck::Your friend's Odyssey is a sample of one. The fit and finish on my Accord is better than that of any new Hyundai Sonata I've seen (they all had varying degrees of blotchy metallic paint and bigger panel gaps). So, we have one anecdote that contrasts with another.
Nope...there are lots of people on the Odyssey boards that complained about the warped windshield, the warped plastic...and the incorrect finish of the rear spoiler. My friend took his to the dealer...and they said.." they did all they could...it will just be off centered"
I have not brought mine in yet...but will when I bring it in with other issues. Mine is off centered also...and his is also. So that is 2 against your one... Not one against one .
Or maybe it is a non-issue...since it is a HONDA...but if it is some other brand....call up the Marines... ??
ME:: But us Honda and Toyota owners like to extol its virtues...some kind of addiction that it is...and always disregard the problems...and always mark the number "10" on all the surveys....since the addicition to Honda is so complete. I am guilty of it as much as all the other people.....
You are a sample of one, which means that your story is an anecdote, not data.
If you can show me documented proof (and that doesn't mean you, your brother-in-law and the next-door neighbor) that Honda and Toyota owners are systematically hiding problems with their vehicles when responding to surveys, then I will believe you.
Well, that would take some research...and have all owners go thru lie detectors, eh ? Not really feasible. How about we just look at how some people minimize Honda's quality problems as non-issue , then go to the forum where lots of people talk about these issues , which to them are NOT non-issues.
Most people are probably like me, who did not realize the fit and finish problems until it was pointed out by others owners.
Do not get me wrong...I had a 2004 TL...and now have a Honda 2006 Odyssey....so there you go...Talk about status symbols and inferior cars ? Which one is inferior ? The one with the major problems but are good at hiding it, or the one who have non-issue problems that people complain about all the time..... ?
I had a 1994 Jaguar XJ-12....the top of line at the time....Best luxury this side of Rolls. I loved the interior focused reading lights. Only one problem...one day it did not start...so towed it to my mechanic...he couldn't find out anything. Towed it to dealer...they gave me a rental car...and spent one week( changed many electrical components with new ones ) ... but couldn't find the problem with it. They then flew in a project engineer from East Coast, put him up in a hotel...and he followed all the wiring...and found out one of the 6 grounding wires was loose. They tightened it...and vrrroooom...the car started. Can't really blame them...since this could happen to any car....
I loved that car...the power was immmense...untamed. I loved the bumper to bumper warranty, and all maintenance included for the engine and tranny.... !! They even vacuumed the inside and made in new smelling anytime I wanted it. :shades:
Comments
I think the LS should have started off on its own design tangent in maybe 1995 or so. By then the car had plenty of cred as a legit MB contender. But Toyota has always had problems with the styling thing, so nobody is surprised to see a warmed over 1992 S-class still being offered. Very nice cars...but if I wanted that look I'd get the old MB that it copied and use the 50K I saved to have lots of other fun.
I am sure the SLR guy is fine, sounds like he came into a healthy amount of funds. But his uses for those cars can always be questioned.
The Cayenne isn't the first vehicle of questionable looks to have good performance. It's just not for me. But I have complete respect for those who buy it for what it is, and not what others think of it. Around here there are a lot of lemmings who buy those things, and they'll never see a gravel driveway nor 5 mph over the limit. Strictly posing conveyances for journeys to trendy stores.
Cars certainly aren't appliances for me. I buy what I like, cars with engineering and design I find interesting. Neither of my cars could be called very trendy, really. I don't care what most others think...I'd much rather have the appreciation of a weird old MB nut than the local trust-funder kids. And I do like to go on a little cruise when I can.
The front grille, the beautiful curving flow of the headlights and the sharp valance treatment all combine to blow the similar-era Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic cleanly and clearly out of the water.
After enjoying the '99 Kia Sephia bodystyle like that driving the others would be like driving thug military material through a war zone.
Kia wins. Again. Not even close to 2nd best.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Aaah, I hate to bust your bubble ... but the originals were bought from Mazda off the 91/93 Protege platform model (design and engine) and replicated and cloned by Kia ...
The big difference ... the Protege's ran 150k++ .. and the Sephia's ran - well, ah, uhm, lets just say, after you got the 2nd tranny in em', put the 3rd dash assembly back in and held your breath they might maybe make it to 5,000 miles before the air compressor went south ........ other than that, they were puuuurfect.!
Terry.
keep on cruising :shades:
Yikes. They'll never be a real carmaker to you will they?
They'll never be good enough for you, will they?
Come on, let me have it, full barrels ahead.
I know, Kia can do that to people. When you're good, people talk. People get jealous. Kia is good, you don't have to waste your breath convincing me of that.
Think about this. Kia is real. They are building a huge plant in Georgia. They have made me two Kia's that lasted many, many, many miles. My Sportage shows no signs of slowing at 110,350 miles.
Kia has made many, many, many , many Americans many, amny, many, many, many, many cars, minivans and SUV's that have passed the test and are performing very. very, very, very well. They'll jsut never, ever, mever, ever, never, ever be good enough for some Americans. Ya know what the point of this exercise is?
Kia doesn't care what you naysayers think! Keep spewing your babble to the wind because not only are Americans no longer listening to you but Kia isn't listening, either. They're busy building a future for themselves and their company.
Don't tell me you also wanted Pittsburgh to win the Super Bowl, too. :sick:
How much money did you donate to the "feed the ref so he'll make the proper call fund"? I have never, ever seen a Super Bowl so bought-off in my life. :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Rocky
Rocky
Would I buy another one? My experience with mine would make me give it stronger consideration, but I will not rule out other makes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Article in newspaper recently said that VW and Audi have established an assembly plant in Slovakia. The main purpose is much lower labor costs than in Germany. One of the vehicles mentioned as being made in Slovakia was the Cayenne. Wonder if engineering will start to be established in Slovakia in the future, just like Honda/Toyota in US. Folks in US buying the VW, Audi models involved will then be able to talk about the fine Slovakian engineering and craftsmanship.
Then, when someone uses the same argument against them...they cannot take the flak.....
Here is their premise , as I understand it ::
...Status symbols such as Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, etc....are all inferior vehicles to Honda ,Toyota & Nissan....since they cost more and are less reliable than the Japanese cars.
Now , if you claim that Honda & Toyota are status symbols of quality and price.....but are inferior to Kia and Hyundai...then they cannot take it.
HOw come HOnda and Toyota, which supposedly are so well built and cheap, that they only have a 3 year /36 K warranty (honda) ? And go for a relatively higher price ? NO discounts here......!!! BTW, how long is Toyota's warranty ? I had a Previa..but they only gave me a 3 year/36K warranty back in 1994.
Kia and Hyundai have excellent track records....have excellent warranties that support their vehicles...and on top of that...they are a great value....!!
I have had a Hyundai too...and have no problem owning a Kia. I think the Honda experience is more mythical than reality. Also the Toyota experience.
these supposedly status symbol Japanese cars need to wake up and see what the competition is doing, IMHO.
I have a Porsche, a GM , and a Honda now. We sold the Hyundai...but there were no problems with it. Nice warranty to back up the vehicle.....
Me and the wife each drive a hyundai for our daily drives and with both of them I cannot complain. FWIW my Elantra has been the most trouble free car I ever had.
We also have a Caddy that we use for "date nights" and I have a Lincoln Zephyr that I have as an investment.
As for the title of this discussion, just remember that perception creates its own reality.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes...and there is nothing wrong with looking for cheap transportation...or expensive transportation. Like people who would buy Honda instead of cheaper, more solidly backed Kia or Hyundai, there are people who buy Porsche or Ferrari or Mercedes.... Kia or used Kia would do the job....but they are not for everyone. When I am close to retirement, I may find a nice, quiet city where the cost of living is low, the amenities high, good public transportation, and not even own a car....Then use all the savings to buy $4000 economy tickets..since gas would be in the stratosphere by then....
"He said I like the new car warranty's. They are cheap enough, plus I don't have to worry about it breaking down and paying for it in ten years.
I agree with him. At his age, maybe it is more important to put resources where they are most needed...in this case...health care. I hoped and am particularly chagrined that Toyota and Honda..who are making alot of money....yet give their vehicles only 3 yr/30K warranty ( Toyota ?) .
I enjoy the vehicles that I purchase....regardless of what others say. I do not rag on others for thier choices....but I could....
the Hyundai that we had ...XG300 , gave us 0 problems. OK , to be fair, they did give us some free service because they posted horsepower was 196 hp....but reality it was quite lower. So the automaker owned up to it.
On the other hand, We bought a Acura TL ( honda product) that advertised 270 hp . No way in hell that it gets 270....most report that it is closer to 240 hp. NOW what did we get as compensation from Honda ??? Zilch..Nada...
ON top of that..we had to worry about the transmission issue ....
So what is status symbol....what is inferior ?
YOu say...I say.....
Status symbol cars are generally larger...and thus more safe , than smaller, supposedly more reliable vehicles...
This may not be politically correct...but it is simple physics, IMHO.
According to NHTSA, larger vehicles do better, in general, in collisions, compared to smaller vehicles.
Another statistic : IN general, in one's driving lifetime, there is a 66% chance one will be in an accident. That is 66% !!! So chances are good that there is one coming down the road..( though hopefully not) .
Which vehicle would you rather be in ?
Let the rolling of dice begin...Texas hold'em style...
Not always and not by a long shot. There are many small "status symbols" out there. Just the other day I pulled up next to an audi station wagon (an A3 I think) and was amazed that the thing was smaller than the Elantra I was driving. Heck I can't even sit in a BMW 3 series.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Best Regards,
Shipo
Not by a long shot...I disagree with. I think in general the statement is true that most lux or status symbol cars are larger....and weigh more....
So there you go....
NOTHING against the Hyumdai or any other vehicle.
So do you all think it is worth it to buy a status symbol vehicle ? Or should one save and invest the money...and opt for a more economical vehicle...??
That would depend on the individual and the reasons for buying the car.
As a general rule I would say they are a waste of money.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Any one else ?
Kia regularly brings up the REAR in every quality survey I've seen. That's hardly an excellent track record, unless the definition of "excellent" has changed recently.
As for Hyundai - its improved quality showings have only come about in the last 2-3 years. I have the annual Consumer Reports auto issues from 2006, 2005 and 2004...for 2006, the top three makes, by reliability, are (in order), Lexus, Honda and Toyota (with Acura at six). Hyundai comes in at number 13.
In that same issue is a ranking of the reliability of the 2001 vehicles from manufacturers. The chart shows the top four makes are (in order) Lexus, Toyota, Acura and Honda. Hyundai comes in at 17.
Again, that's not an excellent record...although it could be said that it is an IMPROVING one. There's a difference.
I have yet to see a Hyundai or Kia that beats a Toyota or Honda in build quality or refinement. (Or engineering prowess - where's the Hyundai that compares to the various Honda or Toyota hybrids or the Acura NSX or the Honda S2000?).
No doubt the Koreans are making rapid strides, but there's a reason they must offer that generous warranty...it's because too many people were burned not too long ago.
A manufacturer doesn't get an "excellent" reputation from 2-3 years of good survey results. By that standard, Buick easily beats the Koreans, as it has scored consistently well for several years now in quality surveys. Honda and Toyota have earned their reputations from delivering consistent, well-finished products over two DECADES.
Now, Scion with their xA and tC are offering great rigs and Toyota's Yaris is getting an extendo-look from me. I am not one to deny that Toyota is and has been on a great run for many, many years. I may nab an xA or Yaris 4-door sedan as my next rig. They are finally getting interesting small product out there that is getting my attention. And that famous resale value is virtually unbeatable.
But Kia is improving every year and the things that go wrong with them go wrong early and are fixed quickly and easily by the Long Haul Warranty. I know it's true-I have no reason to fabricate anything here. I don't own Kia stock. I am not a Kia employee. I just like their bodystyling, initial pricing and that Warranty. Plus, they are very, very reliable vehicles. I am sold on the fact that the thing that is driving down Kia's quality reports are early, petty things that are picked up and fixed right away. I'm not saying you'll even get those things with your Kia. But you could. To me it's worth it because they hold up for the long haul and they look great.
As far as the important things, the powertrain, Kia's are strong and swiftsure.
I wouldn't hesistate for a second picking up my 3rd new Kia in a row.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The public can only get 4+ percent on money market and 5 percent on a bank CD. What kind of return are you getting on that Zephyr?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
How are you getting any money out of a mass produced recently made people mover Ford product. Unless you won the car and paid nothing for it I don't see how you can get anything out of it
Hi Confused, my friends call me Snakeweasel (I have to get new friends :P ).
How are you getting any money out of a mass produced recently made people mover Ford product.
I am not, I am getting money out of a 65+ year old Lincoln product of rather limited production that looks a lot like this:
http://www.hymanltd.com/search/details.asp?stockno=3106&recordCount=64
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
FWIW it was a '41 Zephyr that inspired the song "Hot Rod Lincoln".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It had a Lincoln motor that was really souped up and a model A body that made it look like a pup.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Acura and Honda has the persistent transmission problem...and many people have had problems getting it fixed or changed. Most just got a jury rigged oil spray pointed at the 2nd gear.
The 2000-2003 TL had driver side wiper blades that cannot be lifted up. IT was a design error...and cannot be fixed. So while you can lift the wipers off the windshield of most cars, the drivers side hits the hood, and must be changed with 2 people.
Current generation Odyssey owners have the front warped windshields...and I was just shown a 2005 Ody with warped plastic below wiper blades...and this is after HOnda repaired it. The rear spoiler is off centered...and my friend went to my NEW Odyssey ( with only 300 miles on it) , and SURPIRSE! the rear spoiler is offcentered ! There is no fix....the cars fit and finish is bad....worst than the Hyundai XG300 that we had.
TOyota could not even fix my supercharger on the Previa, even though supposedly it was covered under warranty. The air condition was warm...even when turned on HIGH....but they refused to fix it. But us Honda and Toyota owners like to extol its virtues...some kind of addiction that it is...and always disregard the problems...and always mark the number "10" on all the surveys....since the addicition to Honda is so complete. I am guilty of it as much as all the other people.....
NO more. While they may receive high marks in their target audience....and ride the crest of the wave of their past success, it is my opinion, supported by facts...that their warranties are the worst...and their problems are many.
But don't let facts get into the way of things....it is politically correct to extol Honda and Toyota with their 3 yr/36K warranty. They are the "status symbols " of the day......
Let us disregard the newcomers...who are fighting to improve their products...while backing them up with long warranties.....
Can Honda and Toyota put thier money where their mouth is ???????
Kia and Hyundai are value alternatives to the status symbol honda and toyota. SEE ? The mere fact of mentioning that sentence will draw raised eyebrows...because the permeantion of the belief that they are always better...yet they do not back up their products. So we should advise shoppers to consider other vehicle manufacturers..who do a better job of backing up their products......Honda and Toyota, are you listening ?
JUst my 2 cents....from someone who has owned most of the above cars...except Kia.
Hindsight is always good...I could have invested in Matchbox cars in 1960 and fared better than real estate or just about any other normal investment.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Members of the Honda cult will tell you its meaningless and that the issue is fixed and no longer an issue so we shouldn't talk about it. Yet they insist that problems other cars had 10-15 years ago is a valid reason not to even look at them. Go figure.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Pretty funny. I've been hearing that the tranny problem is "fixed" for a couple of years now, however, I've yet to see any hard evidence of that.
Best Regards,
Shipo
1. Porsche 911, boxster, Lexus: expensive to acquire but easy to maintain. Like a hot babe who is a good girl too. The one you want to marry and make babies with.
2. Benz and BMW: Expensive to acquire and expensive to maintain. Means nagging B****. Gives hard-time, have you by the n**s all the time.
3. Jaguar: Total disaster. The nightmare you always craved for and when you finally got it, its tear time!
Really? That wasn't my experience at all. Near as I can tell, BMWs are about the cheapest thing going from a maintenance perspective.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Those transmission problems show up in the charts featured on pages 82-93 of the April 2006 issue of Consumer Reports.
For the 1999-2003 Honda Odyssey (page 87), the rate for transmission problems range from "worse than average" to "much worse than average." For the 1999-2003 Acura TL (page 83), it's pretty much the same story.
(Which also proves incorrect your contention that either the magazine, or survey respondents, or both, are declining to report problems with their Hondas and Acuras. If that were true, the chart for every Honda and Acura would be an unbroken sea of red dots.)
Only problem is that many of the Hyundais from the same time period score either the same or even WORSE.
So even with those transmission problems, the Hondas still outscored the Hyundais, let alone the Kias.
highender: The 2000-2003 TL had driver side wiper blades that cannot be lifted up. IT was a design error...and cannot be fixed. So while you can lift the wipers off the windshield of most cars, the drivers side hits the hood, and must be changed with 2 people.
I can understand why those who perform their own maintenance would find that annoying. But considering that the majority of drivers don't, I'd say that particular problem falls into the "non-issue" category for 98 percent of all buyers.
highender: Current generation Odyssey owners have the front warped windshields...and I was just shown a 2005 Ody with warped plastic below wiper blades...and this is after HOnda repaired it. The rear spoiler is off centered...and my friend went to my NEW Odyssey ( with only 300 miles on it) , and SURPIRSE! the rear spoiler is offcentered ! There is no fix....the cars fit and finish is bad....worst than the Hyundai XG300 that we had.
Your friend's Odyssey is a sample of one. The fit and finish on my Accord is better than that of any new Hyundai Sonata I've seen (they all had varying degrees of blotchy metallic paint and bigger panel gaps). So, we have one anecdote that contrasts with another.
highender: But us Honda and Toyota owners like to extol its virtues...some kind of addiction that it is...and always disregard the problems...and always mark the number "10" on all the surveys....since the addicition to Honda is so complete. I am guilty of it as much as all the other people.....
You are a sample of one, which means that your story is an anecdote, not data.
If you can show me documented proof (and that doesn't mean you, your brother-in-law and the next-door neighbor) that Honda and Toyota owners are systematically hiding problems with their vehicles when responding to surveys, then I will believe you.
You will also have to show why Honda and Toyota owners are more likely to lie than owners of other marques.
It is better for a new vehicle owner if that particular make scores well in quality surveys, whether it is a Honda, a Buick, a Hyundai or a Mercedes.
Good quality scores, over a long period of time, will lead to better resale values. A new vehicle is a considerable investment for most people. Taking those factors into account, ALL new-vehicle owners have a vested interest in making sure that their vehicle scores well in quality surveys (especially one as influential as the one conducted by Consumer Reports).
If anything, buyers of European and domestic luxury cars have even MORE incentive to lie than Honda and Toyota owners, but, judging by the low scores those marques achieve in the Consumer Reports survey, they apparently aren't (or they are too dumb to do so, which I highly doubt).
highender: NO more. While they may receive high marks in their target audience....and ride the crest of the wave of their past success, it is my opinion, supported by facts...that their warranties are the worst...and their problems are many.
It is also supported by facts that Hyundai and Kia had to offer those generous warranties because their quality WAS "the worst." They aren't doing it out of the goodness of their corporate hearts. They had to rebuild their credibility in the marketplace and encourage buyers to take a gamble on their products. Fortunately, Hyundai, at least, appears to have gotten its act together, so the effort has borne fruit.
As for the contention that the "problems" with Honda and Toyota are "many"...so far I've seen only your anecdotes (which I can counter with my friends' experiences and THEIR Hondas, basically making it a wash).
I'll stick with my "charts and graphs."
highender: But don't let facts get into the way of things....it is politically correct to extol Honda and Toyota with their 3 yr/36K warranty. They are the "status symbols " of the day......
You've offered no verifiable facts - just anecdotes.
highender: Let us disregard the newcomers...who are fighting to improve their products...while backing them up with long warranties.....
I've never said that we should "disregard" the newcomers, or denied that Hyundai (although not Kia) has improved over the past few years. (Incidentally, Hyundai has been in the U.S. market for 20 years. I hardly consider it to be a newcomer at this point.)
I specifically took issue with your assertion in your prior post that these two marques have "excellent" track records. They don't. They are GETTING BETTER, but that is different from having an excellent track record.
And you still haven't offered up any Hyundai efforts that match the engineering prowess displayed by the Honda and Toyota hybrids, Acura NSX and Honda S2000.
highender: Kia and Hyundai are value alternatives to the status symbol honda and toyota. SEE ? The mere fact of mentioning that sentence will draw raised eyebrows...because the permeantion of the belief that they are always better...yet they do not back up their products.
There is a difference between being a value alternative to a product and being BETTER than (or even equal to) a product.
I have no quarrel with casting a Hyundai as the value alternative to a Honda or Toyota. You do get a lot for your money, including an industry-leading warranty. They are not, however, BETTER than - or equal to - a Honda or Toyota from a reliability standpoint, let alone an engineering or sophistication standpoint. Even the Edmunds.com test of V-6 sedans notes that Hyundai basically benchmarked the last-generation of Honda and Toyota sedans when designing the Sonata.
For the 1999-2003 Honda Odyssey (page 87), the rate for transmission problems range from "worse than average" to "much worse than average." For the 1999-2003 Acura TL (page 83), it's pretty much the same story.
And with transmission being a vital part of the car....more important , than , say, the number of cup holders.... I would say that it is a major ....major problem. Yet when the survey asks the Honda diehards ( I could be one of them)
To Honda's credit, they are trying to fix all the tranny's, though they did give some people a hard time.
Boy...you got the longest post yet.
They report the problems....but on scoring system...from 1 being the worst, to 10 being the best....they may consistently mark the higher score. That is not being objective, IMO. The preponderance of red dots (meaning good quality ) is there. Maybe not a sea as in Pacific Ocean...but definitely a sea as in Indian Ocean....
I bought what I bought because I like what I like. I have a 100,000 mile 7 year top to bottom warranty with free scheduled maintenance for the first 50,000 miles. I see 4 year old XKR's go for about 40k with no issues and I'll easily get out of it in pure pleasure what I lose on it so its not really a loss as far as I'm concerned and for me its a reasonable expense.
I did look at the Lexus SC430 but it never really caught on with me. The SL500 while extremely beautiful is also extremely costly with crap electronics. The BMW 6 series is also costly and not as nice lines with the top up as the Jag in my opinion. I looked at the Cadillac XLR but they have got to be smoking crack if they think I’ll start at $85k for a car with plastic panels in it. I looked at the Corvette but I’m at a place where “this is really nice” trumps “this is really fast” and it also felt a little chinzy for this price point. Acura doesn't offer a convertible or it would have gotten a look. I'm sure they'll be addressing that market segment by 2009 when I go look for my next toy and I think Acura is an excellent car.
I say someone mention heritage and for me I could give a whit about that, I like the creature comfort, style, the look of the car and how it performs when I goose it a bit. I had a list centered around performance and features that’s roughly like so:
Performance
Reliability
Electronics
Cost of Ownership
Loaner Policy
Lustability (my own for the car, not how I saw its impact on mine lol)
Across this matrix the Jaguar scored the highest (its actually 22 categories scored on a 1-10 basis) so it was an easy decision for me.
Bottom line people buy what they like.
Jaguar today is different from the Jaguar 20 years ago.
So even with those transmission problems, the Hondas still outscored the Hyundais, let alone the Kias.
That is what I mean...Hyundai owners may be more critical of their car....because there is less loyalty, and maybe they can be more objective when scoring. YOu may think you are objective, but many people go by the street cred... So the data may be skewed. And it will not be the first time...
me : The 2000-2003 TL had driver side wiper blades that cannot be lifted up. IT was a design error...and cannot be fixed. So while you can lift the wipers off the windshield of most cars, the drivers side hits the hood, and must be changed with 2 people.
grbeck:I can understand why those who perform their own maintenance would find that annoying. But considering that the majority of drivers don't, I'd say that particular problem falls into the "non-issue" category for 98 percent of all buyers.
SEE..you are the perfect example of this devotion to Honda/Acura. The car maker designed this car....and the hood is infringing upon the wiper blade ( driver side ). Hyundai at least got this correct. It is quite simple....you design something...and you test it...and make sure things don;t hit each other when in use. When I bought my 2004 TL...my friend tried it..and when the drivers wiper blade cleared the hood, he said...""well, at least they corrected the problem...they did nothing for my 2002 TL...and said that is the way it goes..."
Sounds corny...eh ? Design problem,,and you explain it away like it is a non issue..... ??!!
Transmission....must be a non-issue also, eh ?
ME:: Current generation Odyssey owners have the front warped windshields...and I was just shown a 2005 Ody with warped plastic below wiper blades...and this is after HOnda repaired it. The rear spoiler is off centered...and my friend went to my NEW Odyssey ( with only 300 miles on it) , and SURPIRSE! the rear spoiler is offcentered ! There is no fix....the cars fit and finish is bad....worst than the Hyundai XG300 that we had.
grbeck::Your friend's Odyssey is a sample of one. The fit and finish on my Accord is better than that of any new Hyundai Sonata I've seen (they all had varying degrees of blotchy metallic paint and bigger panel gaps). So, we have one anecdote that contrasts with another.
Nope...there are lots of people on the Odyssey boards that complained about the warped windshield, the warped plastic...and the incorrect finish of the rear spoiler. My friend took his to the dealer...and they said.." they did all they could...it will just be off centered"
I have not brought mine in yet...but will when I bring it in with other issues. Mine is off centered also...and his is also. So that is 2 against your one...
Or maybe it is a non-issue...since it is a HONDA...but if it is some other brand....call up the Marines... ??
ME:: But us Honda and Toyota owners like to extol its virtues...some kind of addiction that it is...and always disregard the problems...and always mark the number "10" on all the surveys....since the addicition to Honda is so complete. I am guilty of it as much as all the other people.....
You are a sample of one, which means that your story is an anecdote, not data.
If you can show me documented proof (and that doesn't mean you, your brother-in-law and the next-door neighbor) that Honda and Toyota owners are systematically hiding problems with their vehicles when responding to surveys, then I will believe you.
Well, that would take some research...and have all owners go thru lie detectors, eh ? Not really feasible. How about we just look at how some people minimize Honda's quality problems as non-issue , then go to the forum where lots of people talk about these issues , which to them are NOT non-issues.
Most people are probably like me, who did not realize the fit and finish problems until it was pointed out by others owners.
Do not get me wrong...I had a 2004 TL...and now have a Honda 2006 Odyssey....so there you go...Talk about status symbols and inferior cars ? Which one is inferior ? The one with the major problems but are good at hiding it, or the one who have non-issue problems that people complain about all the time..... ?
I had a 1994 Jaguar XJ-12....the top of line at the time....Best luxury this side of Rolls. I loved the interior focused reading lights. Only one problem...one day it did not start...so towed it to my mechanic...he couldn't find out anything. Towed it to dealer...they gave me a rental car...and spent one week( changed many electrical components with new ones ) ... but couldn't find the problem with it. They then flew in a project engineer from East Coast, put him up in a hotel...and he followed all the wiring...and found out one of the 6 grounding wires was loose. They tightened it...and vrrroooom...the car started. Can't really blame them...since this could happen to any car....
I loved that car...the power was immmense...untamed. I loved the bumper to bumper warranty, and all maintenance included for the engine and tranny.... !! They even vacuumed the inside and made in new smelling anytime I wanted it. :shades: