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Why are so many inferior vehicles considered status symbols?
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They said it was about $4,000 worth of repairs ordering the whole transmission assembly overnight and all. That's at outrageous dealer prices, so a normal mechanic's shop would be around $2,000 for a tranny replacement on an 03 Accord V6. But the 10K figure is WAY OFF.
Here I kinda agree...except consumer reports skews it views on its articles...such that it almost always puts down more expensive, more sporty exotic cars...which have intangibles such as "lustability", "driving smile quotient" etc..... That is why they rarely test Porsches .... It is a foregone conclusion that they will highly rate any Honda Sedan or Toyota vehicle....
If anything, buyers of European and domestic luxury cars have even MORE incentive to lie than Honda and Toyota owners, but, judging by the low scores those marques achieve in the Consumer Reports survey, they apparently aren't (or they are too dumb to do so, which I highly doubt).
I am not sure...but here you seem to be arguing with yourself. I agree that European or American car owners may be tempted to lie about their vehicles...but they do not...OK...I am not saying that Honda owners lie per se...but that they may just help the marque along, no matter what happens...Kinda like CR....
It is also supported by facts that Hyundai and Kia had to offer those generous warranties because their quality WAS "the worst." They aren't doing it out of the goodness of their corporate hearts. They had to rebuild their credibility in the marketplace and encourage buyers to take a gamble on their products. Fortunately, Hyundai, at least, appears to have gotten its act together, so the effort has borne fruit.
Here I agree. NOw , look at it the other way around, since Honda products are such a GOOD quality that they are so reliable that they can charge large sums of money for them...why not offer a 10 yr /100K warranty ? IT will cost them virtually nothing...since the product is so SO good , right ? But wait...let them corporate guys not offer it...cause the public are so dazzled by Honda's quality...that they will continue to buy it...and pay for repairs, and still rate the thing highly....HMMM.... sounds like a winner for Honda corp.
As for the contention that the "problems" with Honda and Toyota are "many"...so far I've seen only your anecdotes (which I can counter with my friends' experiences and THEIR Hondas, basically making it a wash).
Again....You are talking about 2 families who are Honda skewed, like you. One of them is a lockheed engineer( a rocket scientist, literally) a bright guy...who happens to be very objective. He has the TL and Ody. I sold my TL to get Ody. I saved the other cars.
Check out all the anecdotal evidence at Honda forums...you don't need numbers...but if you want, you can count them.
I'll stick with my "charts and graphs."
I can show you lots of pie charts, graphs, standard deviations, P-values, etc...about anything . Those are only useful in the context in which they are presented.
highender: But don't let facts get into the way of things....it is politically correct to extol Honda and Toyota with their 3 yr/36K warranty. They are the "status symbols " of the day......
You've offered no verifiable facts - just anecdotes.
I've never said that we should "disregard" the newcomers, or denied that Hyundai (although not Kia) has improved over the past few years. (Incidentally, Hyundai has been in the U.S. market for 20 years. I hardly consider it to be a newcomer at this point.)
Please do not take it personal. I did not say "you" per se...but a group of diehards....which could even include me. The topic is about status cars and inferior cars....and my statement stands...Honda may be a status car...but not a value car...and may even be borderline inferior in some respects.
I specifically took issue with your assertion in your prior post that these two marques have "excellent" track records. They don't. They are GETTING BETTER, but that is different from having an excellent track record.
Here I am guilty....I did not mean that they are excellent as in better than Honda...but maybe the word should be "close to be in contention " with the established brands. Are you happier now ?
And you still haven't offered up any Hyundai efforts that match the engineering prowess displayed by the Honda and Toyota hybrids, Acura NSX and Honda S2000.
Hmm...we are talking about status cars and whether they are inferior compared to so called non-status cars. I would argue that Honda may have become a certain status car...and not the value oriented car that it was....and Hyundai and Kia maybe taking that space. This has nothing to do with engineering prowess. But I would lean heavily on the Porsche side if you are talking about that issue.
There is a difference between being a value alternative to a product and being BETTER than (or even equal to) a product.
I have not said that Hyundai is better than...although it certainly can be.
I have no quarrel with casting a Hyundai as the value alternative to a Honda or Toyota.
Good ...that was my main point.
\
You do get a lot for your money, including an industry-leading warranty.
Good...that was another one of my main points.
They are not, however, BETTER than - or equal to - a Honda or Toyota from a reliability standpoint, let alone an engineering or sophistication standpoint.
They may be, depends on the person. To me...with my experience...the Hyundai had less 'non-issues' than the Honda....but your nonissue may be more or less a non-issue than my issue, got it ?
Even the Edmunds.com test of V-6 sedans notes that Hyundai basically benchmarked the last-generation of Honda and Toyota sedans when designing the Sonata.
AHH....good. And where do you think many Honda and Toyota (Acura&Lexus) sedans were benchmarked against when they were designed ? The European cars....the status symbols.....
Whew...all that posting...and we get back to the main issue..... err...OK...we have status symbols who may be inferior to non status symbol but status symbol wannabes, who may be inferior to status quo wannabes....
got that ?
My Jaguar dealer has been excellent and they've taken care of all my issues, the front runner for my next car is going to be the all new S-Type that should be revealed late next year, I can't wait!
I hope they fixed the tranny .... I have my whole family in it....I don't mind the other non-issues...but to me, the engine and tranny are big issues.
NICE.... :-)
I love the S type. It is more sporty....and saves on space and gas. The XJ 12 cylinders got 16 mpg on a good day....but what a nice 16 miles....whew.....this is not a transportation appliance !!! But it is rather not as exciting to drive. I think your vehicle would be both...very sporty and very luxurious....!
My wife wanted one...but with smaller kids...we traded in the boxster, the XJ, and got a Cayenne...and now traded in the TL , and got a Odyssey....
Oh well..perhaps in the near future ?
+ :shades:
His tranny crapped out at about 70K, but he had an extended warranty, which was honored without question.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
there is both snob appeal, and the past appearances that at one time or another, the car was considered sub par.
To be honest....I have one friend who returned their Mercedes C300 under the lemon law ...and got an Infinti instead.
There are many people who complain about the Cayenne.
Does that make it inferior ? Let me self examine:
The thing has
1- electronic glitches
2- no blue tooth for such an expensive vehicle
3- extra fast wear on the tires
4- some people having the car stop and play dead on freeways.
5- wobbling or vibration of the steering wheel and car
6- cardan shaft problem in earlier models ( ??)
7- Fintail's favourite... " Looks "
which I agree can be rather an acquired taste...like uni or caviar :-)
8- other misc problems that are common on all vehicles...
Every car will have some issues, even Camcords and Lexus.
Now if only they can make the cayenne more aesthetically pleasing....
oh well....
enjoy your drive today....
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think they had to do alot of soul searching....for 3 years....and then took 6 years to get the Cayenne into production.
Now, they have grown again this year...and Porsche was named one the the top European companies...
It just bought a stake in VW .....
I see no problem with Porsche making a SUV....in some ways it makes them like a sellout, but money is money these days. I was very displeased when I saw the original MB ML too, but I soon realized that this segment is very profitable and can help a company develop other products. It's not like they are making me buy one. As long as companies aren't abandoning their other lines to chase SUV sales, it all works out.
The engine may be used in the sedan...and some people find it more palatable than the SUV.
I , for one, really like the dual nature of the vehicle. the thing can go like hell...and then take the family up to snow country easily.
It makes driving to the destination secondary....how I get there is fun now....really fun...
I do, an SUV should be able to get off road with no difficulty and take the occasional airborne jump. Anything else is just a wannabe and that is a shame.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That market niche is all about wannabes...these things will never see an unpaved road. For the most part, these are modes of transportation for over-monied housewives and bored guys looking to make up for something.
I wonder if the sedan will cannibalize Cayenne sales.
Not sure, but there are many that can. I have a friend who regually gets his jeep offroad and tries to get it completely off the ground.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nobody buys a luxo-SUV for serious off-roading.
Luxo-SUV's can't really do off roading, thats why they are wannabes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If we all should use a vehicle up to its limits...then we all should be driving Datsun B210 s or Trabants or anything that can go only 75 mph....!! Nothing more ...using some people's logic.
Having the ability to go offroad and escape flooded areas ala Katrina style ( bless them survivors) ....
go to Porsche Cayenne thread..and see post # 68
chicagoland, "Porsche Cayenne" #69, 19 Nov 2002 4:15 pm
that is a cayenne in action.
Guess what is the worlds fastest SUV ? :shades:
I never said that it isn't a vital part of car. It is, however, one part of a vehicle...and even the Odyssey and TL still score well in other areas.
The transmission troubles show up on the Consumer Reports surveys, so Honda Odyssey and Acura TL owners obviously aren't failing to report them to the magazine. As I said, if Honda and Acura owners were doing this, the chart for every Honda and Acura would be a solid sea of red dots.
Even with the faulty transmissions in Odysseys and TLs, the brands, as a whole, still outrank Hyundai, because that one problem is not enough to offset the good results from other Hondas and Acuras.
Incidentally, the problems with some older Hyundais go deeper than faulty cupholders. They include transmission troubles on 2000-02 Accents and 2000-01 Sonatas.
highender: Yet when the survey asks the Honda diehards ( I could be one of them) HOw would you rate the car...most would mark 9 or 10....with 10 being the highest. All I am saying is that maybe many owners are "blinded " by the name cache, or status of these vehicles as "reliable" or " quality" , that if something untoward happens, they dismiss the problem.......
This conjecture is proven incorrect by the results I've highlighted from the 2006 annual auto issue of Consumer Reports for Honda Odyssey and Acura TL transmissions. If Honda and Acura owners were sugar-coating problems with their vehicles, they would not be reporting these major transmission meltdowns.
highender: They report the problems....but on scoring system...from 1 being the worst, to 10 being the best....they may consistently mark the higher score. That is not being objective, IMO. The preponderance of red dots (meaning good quality ) is there. Maybe not a sea as in Pacific Ocean...but definitely a sea as in Indian Ocean....
Until you have verifiable proof that Honda owners engage in this practice, and do it more often than owners of other marques, this is conjecture on your part.
highender: That is what I mean...Hyundai owners may be more critical of their car....because there is less loyalty, and maybe they can be more objective when scoring. YOu may think you are objective, but many people go by the street cred... So the data may be skewed. And it will not be the first time...
There is no verifiable proof that Hyundai owners are more critical of their vehicles than anyone else.
highender: SEE..you are the perfect example of this devotion to Honda/Acura. The car maker designed this car....and the hood is infringing upon the wiper blade ( driver side ). Hyundai at least got this correct. It is quite simple....you design something...and you test it...and make sure things don;t hit each other when in use. When I bought my 2004 TL...my friend tried it..and when the drivers wiper blade cleared the hood, he said...""well, at least they corrected the problem...they did nothing for my 2002 TL...and said that is the way it goes..."
No, I merely pointed out this is a non-issue for 98 percent of owners, who don't do their own maintenance. People who post on this site are not typical drivers.
Poorly defined question.
For a good pavement, no SUV is considered fast when compared to a same priced sports car.
For offroad, it really depends on how rough the road is. Usually, mere arrival = success. I saw on TV, some guys modified 2 Toyota Landcruisers to cross Antarctica. I would say that's about the limit.
No. At least not on Lexus models. Reliability of Lexus is not "common", it is second to none.
I have not brought mine in yet...but will when I bring it in with other issues. Mine is off centered also...and his is also. So that is 2 against your one... Not one against one .
The 2005 Odyssey scored "much worse than average" for body integrity (which would encompass the problems you described). And the vehicle as a whole only earned an "average" reliability rating. So Odyssey owners are not hiding those problems.
highender: Well, that would take some research...and have all owners go thru lie detectors, eh ? Not really feasible. How about we just look at how some people minimize Honda's quality problems as non-issue , then go to the forum where lots of people talk about these issues , which to them are NOT non-issues.
We don't have to use lie detector tests...the 2006 issue of Consumer Reports is available at newstands throughout the country.
Granted, it's not perfect, but, as they say, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
But Car & Driver, Automobile, USA Today and Motor Trend also rate Hondas and Toyotas highly. When such disparate reviewers reach the same result, I think they must be on to something.
highender: Here I agree. NOw , look at it the other way around, since Honda products are such a GOOD quality that they are so reliable that they can charge large sums of money for them...why not offer a 10 yr /100K warranty ? IT will cost them virtually nothing...since the product is so SO good , right ? But wait...let them corporate guys not offer it...cause the public are so dazzled by Honda's quality...that they will continue to buy it...and pay for repairs, and still rate the thing highly....HMMM.... sounds like a winner for Honda corp.
Honda and Toyota aren't going to do anymore than they have to in the warranty department, like it or not. It would be nice if they did.
The Hyundai warranty was a marketing device...as sales improve, and transaction prices improve, and word of mouth increases confidence in the product, I'll bet that Hyundai's warranty coverage drops back in line with normal industry practices.
highender: Check out all the anecdotal evidence at Honda forums...you don't need numbers...but if you want, you can count them.
And that's what it is...anecdotal evidence. Especially considering that the forums are titled "Maintenance & Repair." Those forums are going to attract a disproportionate number of posters with problems, especially considering that Hondas and Acuras regularly rank among the most researched vehicles on this site. Since Edmunds.com attracts more Honda owners, I would expect those forums to attract more complaints.
highender: Please do not take it personal. I did not say "you" per se...but a group of diehards....which could even include me. The topic is about status cars and inferior cars....and my statement stands...Honda may be a status car...but not a value car...and may even be borderline inferior in some respects.
I've got nothing against Hyundai...I could easily recommend one to a friend looking for solid, low-cost transportation. The Sonata is a handsome car (although I prefer to the Fusion to all of them for looks - Camry, Accord and Sonata).
highender: Here I am guilty....I did not mean that they are excellent as in better than Honda...but maybe the word should be "close to be in contention " with the established brands. Are you happier now ?
On that I can agree...Honda and Toyota should be looking over their shoulders at Hyundai. At this point, I'd say that Hyundai is now a solid alternative to the established brands. Buyers get a lot for their money, but there is still the trade-off of less "polish" in exchange for lower prices and a superior warranty (compared to Honda and Toyota, but not necessarily Chevrolet. I'd put Hyundai above Chevrolet at this point.). It will be interesting to see where it goes from here.
Answer it if you can. You are attaching lots of what ifs....
Well, perhaps we can find a same priced sports car that can go 165 mph for $90,000....lets see. not many sports cars around 90 K ....many are much more.
Not saying that one should use a vehicle to its limits but there are trade offs with each vehicle. While an SUV has more space than a traditional car there are alternatives that offer even more space, but not the off road utility" (which many luxury SUV's can't do) for less. Basically my point is if you don't use an SUV for off road purposes you are giving up something and getting nothing in return, with the exception of image.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Guess what is the worlds fastest SUV ?
Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8?
Actually worlds fastest is pretty much a joke. For one you can only go as fast as the traffic in front of you. Secondly I wouldn't trust any SUV at high speeds.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I would not trust a Cayenne at anywhere near that speed.
FWIW my Caddy is supposed to flirt with that speed Depending on who you ask its a little less to a little more. And for a lot less :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not really. This car can really go offroad...it is on par with the RangerRover. Not that I take it that far off road . I am satisfied with going into snow country...and the occasional beach off Highway 1. It appears to me that you don't really know the Cayenne, and think it is another X5 ?
ME:Guess what is the worlds fastest SUV ?
Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8?
NOpe...I guess you need more guesses.
Actually worlds fastest is pretty much a joke.
Actually it is not a joke. It is great to be able to go fast, go offroad, go to snow country, and have the luxury to go along. It is funny how others put down that ability though....
For one you can only go as fast as the traffic in front of you.
That is true. So I guess you are saying that all vehicles that can go faster than the speed limit is a joke ? That Camry is a joke ? Porsche is a joke ? OK...that is your point of view...that is OK....
Secondly I wouldn't trust any SUV at high speeds.
I am always careful with blanket statements like that. Cayenne can stop from 60 mph to 0 in only 112 ft or 120 ft....close to a corvette 's performance figures. The car can handle most traffic situations , thanks, since it , like many vehicles, are designed to handle high speeds. Just thinnk how safe it would be at regular traffic speeds ? The car handles nicely at speed...and has better road feel than many sedans. With that said, you are entitled to your opinion, even though you do not seem to have done your research on this. Please check out the hardback book "Cayenne" , or see review at edmunds.com.
The top speed record for SUVs is held by the Cayenne. That is a fact....no matter how much you belittle the feat.
IN fact,, most engineers find the possibility of making an offroading SUV that can act like a sports car impossible.
Now if the Cayenne can go that fast, and had the brakes to match its performance....think how much better it can handle regular traffic ?
I would not think to drive 165 mph...even at Bonneville salt flats......
I would not trust a Cayenne at anywhere near that speed.
FWIW my Caddy is supposed to flirt with that speed Depending on who you ask its a little less to a little more. And for a lot less
UMM I guess we can each select our own. But if I had to go 150 or 160 mph.....I would rather do it in a vehicle that is engineered to go that fast. For GM products, I would choose the Corvette.... Caddy is not on my list, even if it were free. I would be willing to pay more for safety and performance. But that is just me.... :P :P
My point is simple: HOnda , though good, is really lagging due to it's problems.
According to automotive news: "" the 2006 Hyundai Sonata fires a shot across the bow of HOnda, Toyota, and Nissan ""
So much for status symbols being regarded as inferior...maybe they are inferior ??
According to edmunds.com :: "" Bottom Line : With the 2006 Sonata, Hyundai convincingly beats the long standing class leaders in nearly every important category. ""
I interpret the class leaders as Honda Accord and Toy Camry.....
WIthout going into another long post....I invite you to email me directly . Or we can agree to disagree.
Fact is ...no matter what the surveys say...there are lots of problems with Honda and their lack of a convincing warranty. I was chagrined on March 16, to find out that thier warranty is only 3 yr/36 K bumper to bumper ??!! Most auto makers are offering way better warranties.
I have seen them being towed out by Jeeps. Yeah they can go off road as much as a sedan can, Iit just can't do any serious off roading. At least not and last any amount of time.
NOpe...I guess you need more guesses.
I will stay with my original comments.
Actually it is not a joke. It is great to be able to go fast, go offroad, go to snow country, and have the luxury to go along. It is funny how others put down that ability though..
I wouldn't put down the ability if it actually had it.
That is true. So I guess you are saying that all vehicles that can go faster than the speed limit is a joke ?
I hate the taste of other peoples words so please don't put your words in my mouth. I never said that having a car that can go faster than the speed limit is a joke. I said that being able to get off real fast is pretty meaningless if you have nothing but traffic around you.
I am always careful with blanket statements like that. Cayenne can stop from 60 mph to 0 in only 112 ft or 120 ft
Thats not my concern, there are other factors involve here.
I am not saying that it doesn't ride good, just that its not safe to drive at very high speeds. And yes I have done my research.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And my point is because of that Porsche shouldn't be trying to make a sports SUV. It just doesn't work.
But if I had to go 150 or 160 mph.....I would rather do it in a vehicle that is engineered to go that fast.
Actually if I had to go that fast I would take a plane. Of course that just shows how meaningless making high speed cars. Now while something like a Vette can easily do that 150 MPH your are asking for trouble if you do it in Cayenne.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes...and I have seen jeeps being towed out of mud and rocks too.... There are situations where even the hummer would need to be towed out of. Your point is meaningless.
Yeah they can go off road as much as a sedan can, Iit just can't do any serious off roading. At least not and last any amount of time.
WEll , I showed you the pictures. Please tell me which sedan can do it. I will wait . IF you do not consider that offroading, then that is your opinion...which does not fit the facts.
Did you know that the car was tested at the Moab Desert offroading with hummers and jeeps ? Did you know it was tested in Canadian winters, Scandinavian winters, Dubhai deserts, Australian outback, etc...all before the first one was sold ? The automatic air suspension will lift the vehicle up or down ? That the axle ( its supporting structures) can be electronically detached to allow more wheel travel ?
Of course, not many owners of jeeps and cayennes go offroading ....
I wouldn't put down the ability if it actually had it.
I knew you would not acknowledge the ability if the cayenne had it...which the cayenne does have.
So you would put down the ability if it didn't have it ? YOu just said that you will refuse to put it down if it had it.....I guess that you are agreeing with me about your denial .
I hate the taste of other peoples words so please don't put your words in my mouth. I never said that having a car that can go faster than the speed limit is a joke. I said that being able to get off real fast is pretty meaningless if you have nothing but traffic around you.
Nope....the ability to go fast, makes the vehicle fairly nice to drive in regular traffic. Many vehicles can go faster than 130...which make their engines just fine at speeds of only 70 mph. The engine does not work as hard.
ME:: I am always careful with blanket statements like that. Cayenne can stop from 60 mph to 0 in only 112 ft or 120 ft.
Thats not my concern, there are other factors involve here.
I would think you would be concerned about the facts , since it has a bearing on what we are discussing.
I am not saying that it doesn't ride good, just that its not safe to drive at very high speeds. And yes I have done my research.
Well....what is 'safe' to drive at very high speeds ? The supercar Bugatti Veyron was driven at high speeds...and crashed. But there are many cars that were driven at high speeds...but do fine.
NOw....for a minute...stop and think . IF a car is designed to have the ability to go fast and stop fast. If it is designed to handle the stresses , both physical and mechanical, of high performance....how well do you think it will do when handling regular traffic ? Ask any engineer worth his salt....
HMM...a wiseguy, eh ?
Actually if I had to go that fast I would take a plane.
Planes generally go faster. Regular airlines use jets that go up to 550 miles per hour.........unless you are in a smaller Cessna, which may endanger your life more.
Of course that just shows how meaningless making high speed cars.
Yes....I agree with you that it is meaningless to make nice cars...to engineer for better performance and be innovative.
If all engineers held that view, we would still be driving Model T Fords...going 30 mph...... Back in the 30s and 40s....race cars reached top speeds of 77 mph too.
Now while something like a Vette can easily do that 150 MPH your are asking for trouble if you do it in Cayenne.
And you said you did your research ? check out any Road& Track mag,,,,which has a road test summary at the end.
OK...we all believe you. Cayenne does only 55 miles an hour, barely....
BTW...did you know that the Cayenne is the first vehicle to use fiberoptics for digital information transfer ?
Nope....the ability to go fast, makes the vehicle fairly nice to drive in regular traffic.
Nope the ability to keep up with traffic, handle well and a nice ride makes a vehicle fairly nice to drive in regular traffic, you don't need massive horsepower and blinding speed.
WEll , I showed you the pictures. Please tell me which sedan can do it.
Most of what you showed me I have done in a Chevy Corsica. I have seen people do it in others too. Not that they were ment for doing those this but they were done just the same.
I would think you would be concerned about the facts , since it has a bearing on what we are discussing.
I am concerned about facts, but guess what? that wasn't what I was discussing.
Well....what is 'safe' to drive at very high speeds ?
Some are better than others, the Cayenne is not one of the better ones.
how well do you think it will do when handling regular traffic ?
Immaterial since 1.) see my above statement on it and 2.) that wasn't the point of the discussion now was it?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Best Regards,
Shipo
what I don't get is how a chevy corsica can go offroading ? :confuse: