What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

gtee

You are exactly right about American Steel Industry. Look at new American steel companies like Steel Dynamics and Nucor. These companies make quality products right here in USA with USA labor at competitive prices. In fact the CSP (Compact Strip Plant) technology was invented by German company called SMS, but it was Nucor which first built a plant using this technology. Not only does American steel industry thrive, but we actually export steel to China.

Yes American steel is exported to China. And its all made by dedicated American workers who are NOT in the union. Around new steel mills UNION is a DIRTY word. The funny thing is that most non-union steel workers earn more then union workers. The difference is that people embrace technology. Where an old steel mill would employ 1000 workers, the new automated steel mills employ 100 highly trained people.

gtee

I knew I missspelled the name of the plant, thinks for correcting my error.

You also misspelled "missspelled". I first write my comments in Word then I copy and paste it here. This way the spelling is always right. I did think that Hammtrack was fairly funny. TO tell the truth I also did not know how to spell Hamtramck and I grew up in Detroit.

lemko

"The US population isn't going to disappear and suddenly stop purchasing vehicles."

No, but a vast population of unemployed and underemployed service workers can't buy a new Kia let alone any CamCord. I guess there will still be a tiny elite market for Rolls-Royce Phantoms, Maybachs, and other assorted exotics while 99.9% will make do with their decades-old domestic and Japanese vehicles. They will be kept running similar to 50+ year-old American cars in Cuba. Japan will no longer be able to export vehicles to the U.S. or run plants on our soil as there will no longer be a market for them. However, I expect their ramen noodle exports will explode exponentially.

lemko

Weren't Dodges once built in Hamtramck? Wasn't Hamtramck once called "Poletown" because of a large population of those of Polish descent?

gtee

Absolutely right Lemko. Hamtramck was and probably still is a 'Poletown'. I don' know if Dodge was built there, but I do know that most Polish jokes started in Hamtramck. You can think of Hamtramck as the birth place of Polish Jokes. Now there is something to be proud about.

ivan_99

I miss the Aurora. I driven my G-ma's and was impressed at how solid the car felt. It makes you feel like your driving a bank vault.

Really? Aurora?

I would definitely not classify this as a young man’s car…or one pretending to be a young man.

A co-worker of mine had purchased a late 90’s Aurora about 5 years or so ago.

The suspension seemed to be made of bungee cord…bouncy bouncy all over the place; sweeping corners disrupted it too.

It had the Autobahn package (go figure…) but I don’t think that package modified much.

The engine sounded nice and it was well appointed (interior was kinda cool). It also accelerated fairly well.

He sold it a couple years ago when the head gasket went…went over to Toyota.

It was ok…not my cup of tea…definitely nothing to gush about

akuska

"Again, just to be clear (because you are obviously misinformed), the G6 convertable is a hard top convertible that will cost about $30K. The only other car that may offer something similar in this price range is the new Volvo, but even that is likely to cost thousands more."

The Volkswagen EOS will have a similar setup as well, for about the same price, but with the characteristic Euro road manners. Of course VW is the German version of GM (complete with a bloated workforce, management power struggles, and a sex scandal to boot) whose operations are in a shambles, but unlike GM they don't have a multi-billion health care liability to worry about, so they should survive their latest issues (the new generation of cars is actually quite good, if anyone would forgive them for the reliability of their last generation).

Also, for the record, Volvo is an American brand now, even if they are made in Sweden and Belgium.

corvettefan427

Imagine if GM, Chrysler, or Ford were to go out of business, imagine how many Americans would lose their jobs, and think of the large hit our economy would take. It would ruin America. In these times there are no reasons not to buy American. Between the big 3 and their respective divisions, anyone can find a product to satisfy their needs. And if quality is a concern, you need to update your thinking. For instance a 2005 Chevy Impala garners the same reliability ratings from JD Power and Associates in terms of quality and reliability, and the Suburban/Tahoe are the most reliable large SUV's. Also, in a recent report by Forbes, the least reliable vehicle was made by a Japanese company, Infiniti. So to all of you who haven't looked at an American product lately, it's time to look again.

akuska

"Another problem with bread and butter cars especially from GM is they have had so many cars with so many names it gets the customer confused: 6000, Beretta, Lumina, Corsica, bring back the Impala and Malibu, Skyhawk, Skylark, Regal, Century, LacCrosse. Lucrene, Phoenix. Where as Honda and Toyota have only had the Civic, Accord, Camry, and Corolla names. Even Nissan has had the Maxima, and Sentra for years although the Stanza name was switched to the Altima in 92-93."

I don't necessarily agree here. Slavish adherence to a name can hurt a manufacturer. VW is having this problem with the Jetta now. Most people still think of the Jetta as a small car, even though it is now a mid-size. It thus has the problem of a $20-$25k price, which is Accord territory, but with Civic-class cache. Name changes, such as Stanza to Altima, or Cressida to Camry, can be effective if used judiciously.

Having said that, I have found the BMW and MB naming systems (indicating body class and engine size) quite simple, except for some reason it has never worked when the "domestics" tried it.

akuska

"Take a CTS, put in a 160 hp world class I4, cloth seats, all the airbags and nothing else. Let Cadillac design it, build it and let Chevy sell it. Put Cadillac quality into a basic Chevy. The word would get out soon enough that you can get a Caddy for under $20K."

GM tried something similar with the Catera, while Ford tried this with the Contour. For some reason, rebadged and Americanized European cars selling under American nameplates don't seem to sell well. I think the issue is that while European cars have a loyal following in this country, it is not enough to sustain a mass market vehicle selling to American car manufacturer standards. While sales of 100,000 of a model are great for BMW, VW, or MB, they are a disaster for a GM division (except for Cadillac, Hummer, or SAAB).

A rebadged Cadillac will have the same problem, although at least it will be better than a rebadged Chevy trying to pass for a Cadillac (think Cimmarron).

fintail

It's that line between quality and reliability that needs to be fully grasped for the market to change. A 2005 Impala may be plenty reliable, but does not exude quality in any way.

carlisimo

"anyone can find a product to satisfy their needs"

but not their wants, in many cases

englishmike

Hi guys, seriously you cannot compare the pathetic attempt from some Eastern European Commi bolt hole, Yugoslavia and the Yugo, with the might and ambition of the Chinese? The Yugo made French cars look and feel good! The chinese may do the same, at present, but give them a few years. Let's face it they are shameless about flouting copyright laws/I.P's and with their cash, they can make what we have been banging out for years, 10 times faster and 10 times cheaper.

kdhspyder

Yyou sure do have a negative view of our capabilities. Your view seems something akin to a post apocalyptic Mel Gibson movie. It must be tough to be that pessistic.

Change is good it brings out the best in us. We all benefit in the long run.

englishmike

Hi, strange you say that, because they have gone to India, but they have not taken most of their workforce, they have employed locals to do the job, for alot less cash. So now if I want to speak to British Gas, British Airways, My bank, My electricity supplier or My mobile (cell) phone supplier, I speak to an Indian in Calcutta, and can't understand what they are saying! great, very frustrating. They try to teach them how to be 'English' by making them watch British soap opera's and giving them good old English names, so Ranjeet deepak answers the phone as richard wellington!!!! Do they think this makes him or me feel better?

anythngbutgm

Once again, GM, Chrysler and Ford are NOT going out of business! The whole "what if" scare tactics are NOT how you win back import buyers...

andre1969

I always loved the style of the first-gen ('95-99) Aurora, but not so much the second one. There was a lady at work that had a first-gen, which was this beautiful shade of light silvery blue. One day she let me drive it, and we took it on some back roads. I was a bit disappointed once I actually drove it. For one thing, I thought it would be a bigger car inside, but it felt smaller than my '00 Intrepid. I also wasn't too crazy about the way it handled. You could probably put some low-profile tires on my Grandma's old '85 LeSabre and get the same results.

Still, I really loved the style of it. And the interior did seem pretty high-quality. The only thing I thought was odd about the style was that because of the shape of the dashboard, one of the center HVAC ducts pointed off to the side and just looked like an afterthought.

Overall, driving it wasn't a total turnoff, but it just didn't meet the expectation I had of the car.

PF_Flyer

People get all worked up over the word "bankruptcy", but that means "restructuring", not "going away".

asafonov

I look at the Lucerne as the next Aurora, and will someday buy a used one for driving back n' forth to work.

So, Rocky Lee, you appear one of the staunchest proponents of the Buy Domestic (whatever that means) paradigm, and even you will not buy a Buick NEW?

callmedrfill

"Take a CTS, put in a 160HP world class I4, cloth seats, all the airbags, and nothing else. Let Cadillac design it, build it, let Chevy sell it. Put Cadillac quality into a basic Chevy. The word would get out soon enough that you can get a Caddy for onder $20k."

He didn't just say that! Tell me he didn't just say that!

It's like Deja Vu, all over again. With cramps on top!

Hey I have an idear!

Why don't we take Chevy interior, strap it to an undersized engine, relive our vaunted "3-box" design, but make the lights really tall, and then, give it a name like "Form meets Science" or something, then call it CTS!

And where would GM get a "World-class" 160HP I4 from?

Now we've found out GM "Plant"!

Can we close this one too? :confuse:

DrFill

aquaticexplore

States (and provinces) provide tax incentives to ANY automaker willing to locate plants or offices in their jurisdictions. Why would they do this, if all it is is a big sucking sound? They do it because the short-term requirement of an incentive pays very lucrative long-term benefits. States make back their investments many times over with these plants - irrespective of whether it is a domestic or foreign automaker.

The real problem is designing good looking reliable cars and trucks. Ford could not build enough new Mustangs, DC could not build enough new 300C. These cars were winners because they were great products at a great price, built in union plants nonetheless. The big 2.5 have to shake themselves out of their slumber - in which designs like Lucerne are trying to match the Vanilla appearance of the Avalon, Camry etc.

bumpy

Between the big 3 and their respective divisions, anyone can find a product to satisfy their needs.

Needs, usually. But why settle for needs when you can buy a car that also satisfies your wants? That's what the domestics don't have enough of.

dpat

Let's face it they are shameless about flouting copyright laws/I.P's and with their cash, they can make what we have been banging out for years, 10 times faster and 10 times cheaper.

But the minute they set foot in this country the Big2.5 will sue them back out for violating so many patents and copyrights.

Meanwhile, GM is rapidly GAINING market share in China.

see here

reddogs

GM, Chrysler and Ford DO NOT have to go out of business in order for the damage to be done! As soon as banks see your thinking about bankruptcy or heading in that direction they start to cut you off at the knees, downgrading you and playing hardball for any loans or extensions.

When EASTERN AIRLINES started to get into a row with the mechanics union the financial houses started to tighten the noose, the longer it went the tighter they got till they finally strangled a great airline. But before even that, potential employees were going elsewhere as they didnt see any future in employement there, and the current employees were looking elsewhere to secure their future.

You can destroy a company long before the carcass hits the ground, and in the case of GM, Chrysler and Ford they are being strangled from within with their costs, from outside with the finacials, and from overseas from competition. Its only a matter of time before they die off like other giants like EASTERN and PAN AM and are resurected as a ghost of their former sales and glory...

Then people will be heard to say "General Motoring, who"

sls002

The Aurora was not a sports sedan. You're feeling about the interior being small is right. The coke bottle shape of the body resulted in a smaller interior, but I also think that they designed the interior to feel like the size of the smaller BMW sports sedans. I actually think that the Aurora's interior was a mixed bag for quality. I thought that the finish on the plastics was cheap looking, but they did put some nice wood trim here and there to offset the cheap plastics. The cockpit style dashboard did make the passengers side seem like an afterthought.

englishmike

That's true re: Tax incentives, we have the same policy it's still putting people in jobs.....True, but, it gives foreign manufactuers tax breaks too, effecting home grown products because they don't get the same benefits! Luckily though, although domestic mass car production is all but over in the U.K, We do produce Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Vauxhall(a European subsidiary of GM), Mini even though BMW stole it but, don't get me started on that! and loads of French crap. In a way it's good because all our skilled labor can get a job doing what they do best, rather than working in Burger king. And give us the best in the world for race engineers, designers, technitions, chassis designers and CAD specialists. The Renault (French) Formula 1 World champion team is based in Oxford, England, along with 90% of Formula 1 teams. And World rally cars such as Mitsubishi are completely designed here, all but the bodyshell and part of the chassis remain. So it just seems to me that we just suck and doing it on a large scale, which would come down to management incompetence! And I tell you that was all down to a Commi, called Red Robbo, He knew every trick in the book to upset the managment and called strikes, because the grade of tea for their tea breaks was not a household brand, or the canteen had ran out of their favorite biscuits or it was raining etc, etc.. and I don't think they have ever recovered. I am getting suspicious that he was paid by the Chinese knowing that 20 years down the line, it (MG Rover Group) would be cheap enough for them to buy? I am just kidding, I think?

Oh and i would like to point out that we (UK) are 5 hours ahead of Florida and 8 hours ahead of California in case anyone was wondering why my replies are so long coming, probably makes little sense!

And that I think we have so much more in common with the USA that we do with Euorpe (I would so much rather be a mass trading partner with the USA than Europe) and, I don't just mean we speak the same language. Have you ever heard a German joke? they are so uptight! and The French and Spanish have never forgiven us for giving them a beating a couple of hundred years ago. I mean they start it and gang up on us, and get battered! The VW factory was put back into action by the British army. I am not so sure Adolf would have done the same in our potion? anyway rant over!!!

kdhspyder

Imagine if GM, Chrysler, or Ford were to go out of business,

But this is not going to occur. Companies of this size just dont turn off the lights and go home.

Reliability/quality/value: On this forum the positions are pretty much set one way or the other. The current buying public has generally formed an opinion one way or another. It's the next generation of buyers who are now 12-20 y.o.'s who must be convinced to change what their parents currently express to them everyday while in the family cars. So many 25-40 y.o. buyers now drive HonYota's because when they were young their parents bitched and moaned all the time about the dogs they had to drive from the Big 3. BTW you cannot win the hearts and minds of the young with a 400 HP $30K vehicle or a bulletproof CTS.

Trucks are a different story. Big 2+C trucks are well made and any buyer can feel comfortable relying on one of these longterm. That's expressed down through the generations also.

To get fanny's into domestic autos there has to be real value and that doesnt mean just low price. The rebate banquet of the last 4 years has done nothing to improve the perception of the Big 2+C. It only has given the impression that 'we can only sell our vehicles if we do what Hyundai does.. give them away'.

What does the next generation of buyers hear now if they are in a GM/Ford/DC minivan or auto?
'We're so upside down that we'll never get out of this vehicle.'
'How come _______'s parents love their Odyssey? What's wrong with this ______?'
'We just bought this Explorer 2 yrs ago and they say it's worth less than 50% of what we paid for it.'

After 5 years of hearing this in the back seat what do you think the next generations of buyers will be thinking? NO WAY...

reddogs

"Companies of this size just dont turn off the lights and go home."

Look up AMERICAN MOTORS or 'Ma Bell' ATT and see what happened to them............... :sick:

mike91326

Ten years ago Hyundai was the laughing stock of the auto industry. Now even Toyota is looking over their shoulder at them. Why? I see two main reasons. First, they are making much better cars, and second, they have a 10-year/100,000 mile warranty. A lot of people who would not give Hyundai a second look took a chance because of the warranty. Now they are sold on Hyundai (another customer lost to the big 2.5). If the big 2.5 were smart, they would offer a 5/60, 10/100-warranty package to get customers back in their cars.

sls002

Ma Bell is still alive and well. AMC was taken over by Chrysler, who has been taken over by Mercedes. However, GM and Ford will most likly go through chapter 11 first, then chapter 7, unless of course someone takes them over at some point.

kdhspyder

No where near the same situation. 'Ma Bell' still exists it's just in different forms.

American Motors was nowhere near the size of either of GM/Ford/DC ( it was absorbed into Chrysler - I was supplying both the Kenosha plant and the Toledo/Jeep plant at the time. Chrysler bought it to get the Toledo plant then Iacocca closed the rest of it.)

sls002

Hyundai is better than Kia, but is below the industry average for long term reliability. They are about 10% worse than average, or 60% worse than Buick. Kia is more than 60% worse than average. Hyundai is better than Mercedes though.
http://www.jdpower.com/pdf/2005089.pdf

gogogodzilla

Usually companies don't take much of the workforce when they shift to another country. But they do take a good number. Usually for the experience and to train/supervisor/manage the new workforce.

And while everybody and their uncle seems to be outsourcing telephone help to India... I'm kinda surprised why everyone wants to move to China for manufacturing. At least with India, they understand English and are not communists.

gogogodzilla

Yes! Someone who understands!

I've been saying that Quality and Reliability are two totally different animals for a while now... but there are still so many posters who confuse the two.

Reliability is having the car do what it was designed to do... without breaking.

Quality is the 'fit and finish', the construction materials, the design, interior ergonomics, the handling, the performance, etc, etc...

Which means that:

American cars are indeed quite reliable... but their quality stinks.

European cars aren't as reliable... but their quality is excellent.

Japanese cars are very reliable... but their quality is half-way between US and European standards. (which is why so many people buy them)

US manufacturers need to concentrate on the quality of their cars... and at the very least, maintain their reliability.

mike91326

That may be but they (Hyundai) are selling cars by the boatload. Why is that? I know their price is lower but last summer the big 2.5 were giving away their cars and Hyundai still outsold some of their lines. Even at their price point Hyundai has profits.

They need a way to get buyers back in their cars. A better warranty is a start. It worked for Hyundai.

gogogodzilla

The Big 3 definitely needs to match Hyundai in the warranty department.

Besides, it shouldn't cost them much at all, what with GM/Ford/Chrysler always advertising their great reliability.

And reliable cars don't break, which means that the Big 3 would have nothing to fix... and no repair bills, as well.

That they DON'T offer it is very telling.

:surprise:

sls002

Even the most reliable cars do break and so cost the manufacturer something to fix under warranty. Extending the warranty to a much longer period would cost even more, and GM is not profitable as it is.

bobst

Have you looked at the new Hyundais?

I think they are beautiful! We saw a Sonata up close a few days ago, and we were very impressed.

On the other hand, seeing a Chevy Malibu (which we rented last year) makes me shudder. It looks so dull.

mariner7

Almost three of every four American consumers polled would not buy a car from a manufacturer that had declared bankruptcy, according to a recent survey, giving struggling U.S. automaker General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news) something else to think about.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051228/bs_nm/autos_survey_dc;_ylt=Au1XbRAl67FCdau1k- 6DlY0OL_bIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

I can understand why. If one flies a bankrupt airline, what do you have to lose, a couple of hundreds bucks? In fact, if you don't want to fly bankrupt airlines, you better ride or hitchhike. But if you buy from a bankrupt carmaker, you can lose more than a bundle.

As GM or Ford moves nearer to bankruptcy, it has to up the incentives to include a bankruptcy risk, something for the consumer to overcome his fear to buying from a potentially bankrupt company.

gtee

Hyundai is better than Kia, but is below the industry average for long term reliability. They are about 10% worse than average, or 60% worse than Buick.

One of the main reasons that Buick has so few reported problems is that the average age of a Buick driver is like 70 years old. My mother who drives a Ford Crown Vic thinks that the car is great, yet when I get into her car I see all sorts of problems with the car.

I think that its the same thing with Buick. The older people are just not as critical of cars and they don't notice many problems that younger people notice. I think that advanced age of Buick owners goes a long way in explaining the "quality" of Buick. If you have problems hearing, rattles will not bother you. If all you drove is Buick's all your life, you just don't expect more.

I remember reading an interview with some manager at Buick about Buick Century. This was in the late 90's when Buick Century was so non-competitive it was not even funny, and the magazine wanted to know who would buy this car. The Buick manager said that people buying Century are not the "same type" of people as current owners, they are the same buyers. Meaning that only people who already owned a Century were buying it again.

andre1969

The Aurora was not a sports sedan

That might be one reason why I was disappointed with my drive of the Aurora, because I expected it to be. It looked like a sports sedan to me, and was Oldsmobile's flagship, so I guess I just expected a bit more.

Still, if I could find a nice, low mileage Aurora (or Riviera) for a decent price, I wouldn't mind having one. Of course, that isn't going to help GM or anyone else sell their NEW cars!

reddogs

You hit the nail on the head mariner7, the closer they get into the black hole of bankruptcy, the faster it starts to pull them in and destroy their reputation, their connections financial or contractual. Banks start to hold back or get stingy with loans, the flow from suppliers starts to tighten up or dry up, and last but not least the buyers loose any confidence right before the company is sucked into the destructive vortex of the black hole and crushed....... :surprise:

traumer

http://www.forbesautos.com/news/headlines/2005/december/fdc122805-chevy.html

xqu

Fleet sales and incentives totally destroyed their resale value. I bought my first new car after graduated from college, a Ford Focus. Could've got a Civic for the exact same price, what a mistake I made! Car was totaled in a accident 4 years later (not my fault). Insurance company looked it up and cut me a check for $6000, could've got $3,000 more if I had a Civic. That's 50% more!!
Don't tell me resale doesn't matter if keep the car for 10 years, only if you CAN keep it that long. No matter how good of a driver you are, someone else could take you out on the road.
big 3 need to improve their resale value to win me back!

reddogs

It's time for someone to do a IACCOCA style whip cracking whupping on the BIG THREE and get them roused up from their sleepy slide into bankruptcy........ :mad:

martian

From time to time, GM gets serious about high-tech, but never seem to keep these innovations for very long. Case in point: the late Buick REATTA-it had a CRT display, with touch screen controls! GM dropped it, of course. Or the forward-looking Infra Red display on high-end cadillacs-what happened to itZ? GM (Oldsmobile) had a very nice heads-up gauge display (similar to those used in jet fighter planes)-gone! Of course, these innovations are later picked up by M-B, BMW, wtc., and sold successfully-wonder why GM never follows through? Or the EV-1-the firts electric car witha decent range-over $1.5 buillion invested-and gone. Maybe GM needs to totally reivent itself 9as it did in the 1920's after Alfred Sl;oan got rid of Billy Durant!

mnbda

I've owned both American cars and Japanese cars for years. Bottom line -- the Japanese cars have been far more reliable without question. Until the U.S. automakers get it right things will not change.

sls002

Well it really depends on what American cars you owned and what Japanese cars you owned. They are not all the same. Buick seems to be doing very well in terms of reliability and no I do not think that is because their owners are ignoring problems.

m1miata

OK, I'll bite! Which cars made in USA are of better quality than Japan makes?

Loren

m1miata

Never seen a Buick driven hard and put away wet. They may in fact be reliable, but most just poke around town, or are in the cruise mode on the freeway. Now Mustangs, Civic, Miatas, BMWs, Focus and other cars I see being driven - really driven. Hard to say how a Buick holds up if pushed to the limit, or anything over 60 MPH.

Loren