Ah, no F3 suspension on that one? I would imagine there to be some ways to add heavier springs and better adjustable gas shocks on the Aurora -- worth asking someone at a good custom car shop.
The Aurora's suspension was supposed to be a "touring class" suspension. They put the same tires as the STS (Touring Seville) had on it. However, I did not find that my 98 Aurora's handling was that much better than the 95 Riviera that I owned before it. But the Riviera's always were designed to handle better than the Park Avenue's.
Really? My girlfriend drives her LaCrosse like a NYC taxicab driver. The car has yet to give her any trouble. I've driven my '88 Park Ave with the speedo pegged on the PA Turnpike and the car handled it effortlessly. I had Buicks in the past, and these cars truly do hold up well under any and all driving conditions. Heck, seniors can be even tougher on a car than a young guy who pampers his ride.
Come to think of it, how many suburban Moms and their castrated spouses drive their CamCords to the limit?
Really? I have the most extremely high expectations of my cars! A burned-out bulb will drive me bananas! Cadillac and Buick meet all my automotives wants and needs head-on. It isn't even necessary to look elsewhere unless I feel like wasting my time.
Shoot, if what they build now is low-quality, I'm quite happy. My GM cars keep going and going and going. I'd have to make a concerted effort to destroy them if I wanted them to break. My 1989 Cadillac Brougham will probably outlive me.
Don't mind if I do! Buying a car I don't like just because it has better resale value is still throwing money away in my book. I could care less if my Cadillac was worth less than a 5-cent deposit bottle after three years. I would still take it over a BMW or Benz even if they hold their value better than gold bullion.
I assume that you are not talking about reliability when you say quality. By quality, I assume that you are referring to the fit and finish of the materials used. If that is the case, then I agree completely that domesic makes are behind.
When the American cars match the reliability for the Japanese cars, Americans will buy American cars.
I had a Mustang GT and it was a giant dissapointment. Three transmissions, two front dirrerentials, had two coils fail, paint chipped at 13,000 miles (its covered only until 12,000)....I could go on, but right now it is in the shop with a min cost of 600 bucks and a full fix cost of 1400.00.
I have friends with Hondas and Toyotas that had oil changes for 200,000 miles, and maybe a fuel filter.
American cars cost more, and deliver less. If American companies wanted to sell more American cars, they should give away a 100,000 mile bumper to bumber warranty.
Until the American cars are more reliable...Expect imports to sell.
I don't know if there really is any one person to blame. GM's financial problems don't affect me personally except to the point I worry about from where I'd get my future cars. I guess I'd defect to Chrysler. You couldn't get me to buy any CamCord regardless of how good they are perceived to be.
Sometimes it might just be the natural progression of the business cycle of life. Businesses are born, succeed, thrive, decline, and die off. Who knows? In 2055 people will be talking about the bankruptcy and death of Toyota at the hands of Hyundai-Kia and a smattering of Chinese manufacturers. Sure, the thought of GM dying off due to a yet unheard of Japanese manufacturer seemed absurd in 1955. Who's to say Toyota's death at the hands of some yet unknown Chinese or Indian manufacturer isn't possible?
No. I just don't like what Ford current offers aside from maybe the Mercury Grand Marquis and the hot new Mustang. I had a 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue and it was one of the best cars I've ever owned. If Chrysler still built an Imperial, (like they used to in the 1960s - not that stupid early 80s coupe and most certainly not the K-car Imperial of 1989-93) I'd have a hard time choosing between it or a Cadillac. My brother is still driving that Fifth Avenue with well over 200K+ on it. The way I see it, Chryselr is keeping Mercedes afloat, not the other way around. My brother-in-law's S-Class is a dog!
...were already in the pipeline before M-B took them over, I mean, entered in a merger of equals. The Dodge Viper certainly wasn't a product of Daimler-Benz. They wanted a part of Dodge truck's action, plain and simple.
I ask because Chrysler reliability was probably better than MB reliability before the merger.
As for quality, in some models they are still bottom of the barrel. From what I have seen, Durangos and Jeeps troll the depths with GM in the interior quality department.
Why do people not buy American cars? Maybe the feverent anti-GM hatred from reading forums like this? GM still sells more cars than anyone, and yet look at the percentage of "all GM cars are junk" posters just in this thread. And if you really believe GM cars fall apart after 40k miles, or somehow they have more plastic than any other car out there, well then I have lots of bridges to sell.
My personal experience - had an 84 Buick Skylark long ago. Was nice, unlike all the import cars it started every day when we had a week of 20 below temperatures. Blew a head gasket after that and was "junk" from that point on. Switched to a 90 Grand Prix, it was nice, comfortable, still owned by relatives, and with 150k+ miles, it still runs smoothly. Compare this to every "high quality" early 90s Toyota or Honda I have ever been in of similar miles, they are all falling apart both inside and outside, and they all run rough and the 4 banger sounds like they are going to rattle apart at any moment. Maybe it is just midwest cars, or you people have really fooled yourself into thinking import cars run like brand new with 100k+ miles on them.
After that moved to a 99 Grand Prix GTP. Yes the interior was nothing to right home about, although it had features like the heads up display you still cannot get on most cars. Also was one of the best styled cars of the late 90s (and no it was not clad in plastic like the brainwashed mag writers kept claiming), and with 240hp was the most powerful "family" car at the time. I modded it to 280hp (fairly easy with that car) and ran it to 120k miles before trading it in, and it still ran fine. It did have a couple squeaks and rattles (I am sure the Koni struts and large subwoofers I had pounding in it did not help), but other than that it was very reliable. And again, I have yet to sit in a late 90s car from any import manufacturer (from Toyota to BMW), that did not have at least a couple rattles in it.
So now I have a 05 GTO. Only 15k miles so far, but no problems. It outperforms anything within $15k of it (yes the Mustang is close, but the back seat is unuseable), and is put together as well as anything coming from overseas. But wait, it has a Pontiac badge so it must be "junk". I swear, some of the posters on here need to get a job.
..though I think the Zephyr is going to be a failure. The Fusion is a very attractive car and the Five Hundred is a Passat that actually runs. Lincoln needs a Cadillac-like rennaisance. Mercury has an excellent car in the Grand Marquis.
How successful is the Crossfire? I've seen two outside of a Chrysler dealer. The styling is cool. I've seen the new Jeep Grand Cherokee. I'm not much for SUVs, but that's a pretty vehicle.
By the way, this isn't clad in plastic? It looks to be from stem to stern.
I see a piece designed to prevent dings to the door, and some tasteful ground effects, hardly "clad in plastic".
Again if GM makes great cars why are they in financial crisis? Why do they have to discount everything? It's not some conspiracy like you make it out to be. They simply do not produce as good of a car as other manufacturers. The GTO is fast. and thats it. its not high quality.
Notice I never said GM cars are all better than the imports. In fact, based on class there are many import cars I would choose over the domestic equivalent. But this is a far cry from the cars being "junk". By the way, saying the GTO is not high quality is a very ignorant statement as anyone who actually sat in or drove one will attest to.
I know am new here, and I have been reading all your old timer posts, but I couldn't help to notice all this riddack against GM is a result of years of bashing by left-wing activities like Ralph Nader or Al Gore. It's no secret that there are some elements out there that's make it their personal mission to take GM down, since GM is an American Icon and those "elements" went to see America collapse and install their socialist regime. We got to unite and stop these left-wing elements, before they indoctine us with their bias articles and brain-washing techniques.
I haven't driven a GTO, but I've sat in a few. I actually liked the interior. It seemed like a high-quality car to me. GM would do well to look to this car for inspiration for some of its North American interiors. I think the biggest problem with the GTO is that the style is just too subdued and "wallflowerish" to really fit in with the GTOs of days gone by. Well, except for maybe the '74 GTO!
As for that Grand Prix coupe, I think the basic car is very attractive, even with that cladding. I don't like the interiors of them, though.
It certainly isn't GM leading the domestic comeback, that's for sure.
Don't tell a diehard that GM is failing. Blame the owners of imports who have been satisfied and see no reason to shop GM. Blame the media, blame the forums "for speading the bad news". Make sure you don't blame GM corporate for the mess they are in.
Diehards believe the cars they buy from the General are on par or better than anything out there, too bad the only ones buying it is them because the rest of the buying population rapidly being convinced otherwise...
BTW, I would say the GTO (make that one of the best) is one of the better built cars in the GM stable. Better built than the Vette IMO.
It won't help IMO, and it probably won't hurt them directly. If gas prices go to infinity and beyond, the fall of the oversized truck based utes is certain. Maybe there will be some immediate profits at intro, which will help GM put some more funding back into their other lines.
Not before the big bonuses and joyous pats on the back for their efforts first though...
I would love a Lucerne, Lacrosse, but I like Cadillac better because of the creature features. i.e heated steering wheel, voice recognition, 5.1 surround sound, etc etc. Hey I might still end up with a Lucerne, because it's has alot of nice features for the $$$$ I drive over 90 miles one-way to work, and I can rack up over 40-50K miles on a car easily in a yr. So buying one new wouldn't be the smartest. Buying one 4-8 years is a better thought
Build a better mousetrap and price it less than the market leaders, you will take marketshare.
Edmunds picked the V6 Sonata over the Camcord. Ford, GM, Mopar should adopt the same model. They won't.
In the next decade Hyundai will invade the hallowed luxury market. They'll offer a 7/S class/Lexus LS series level car for 5/E class/GS prices. Within the next 15 years they'll have a car on par with the G35, 330i, IS350 and it will be priced far less.
And the big 3 will still be struggling and confused.
I can't believe some stuff that diehard GM fans post here too. I guess if one is happy with one's Buick, that's great, but don't they realize that there must be reasons GM's market share has been taking a nose dive for decades?
Even with the GM's Red Tag firesale, their sales for December is forcast to be down 8%!
Their products appeal to some demographics (the fact that there are still GM fans out there prove this), but it seems that this is a shrinking customer base. If they want to attract young consumers like me, they have to make a product that is better than the competition.
When I was in the market for a minivan a while back, I didn't even consider the Chevy/Buick minivans. Sure, they were cheaper than my Honda, but if I just wanted cheaper, I'd get a Kia, with a bonus of a better warranty.
Chevy/Buick had nothing to offer other than their SUV-like looks, which personally, I did not like anyways.
In a year or two, I'd be in the market for a compact/midsize sedan with a manual transmission. I doubt I'll see anything from the domestics that'll sway me from an Audi/VW.
Hyundai builds a better car now, but their financials and backroom funding gymnastics are shrouded in mystery. A publicly traded US company will find it hard to compete with a company that is more than willing over the long haul to take a loss - and not really book it as that - so long as the South Korean government blesses them with handouts, subsidies, and multiple corporate alms that we can't even begin to get a handle on.
All this blather just means the consumer will get a decent value for their money buying Hyundai - as long as North Korea doesn't loba nuke or a scud at them one day.
I know am new here, and I have been reading all your old timer posts, but I couldn't help to notice all this riddack against GM is a result of years of bashing by left-wing activities like Ralph Nader or Al Gore.
I take great offence to that comment. First of all I am not left-wing leaning. I am right-wing leaning. I don't like GM because of crappy car that they sold to me. I don't like unions because they want to have a socialist welfare state in America and we as American consumers have to support that. I also don't like unions exactly because they supported every left-leaning presidential candidates like Al-Gore and what's his name who ran against Bush last year. That is exactly why Right-Wing leaning people like me don't like Left-Wing Leaning American Auto Industry. There must be a reason why every new car factory is build now in right-leaning south where I live.
Maybe that is exactly the problem that Domestic Auto industry has managed to upset people from both sides. They build large gas guzzling trucks and SUVs which upsets the left-leaning environmentalists, while also propagating the welfare state for UAW and supporting left-leaning candidates which upsets the right-leaning people. That is the problem, they have no friends left.
Oh and i would like to point out that we (UK) are 5 hours ahead of Florida and 8 hours ahead of California in case anyone was wondering why my replies are so long coming, probably makes little sense!
Good thing you clarified that mike, I was beginning to think you were slow. (Just kidding lad). Good to get a Euro perspective on these things.
So Mike, what is your take on the UK Honda plant? Sucking sound or sound investment by the country?
On another matter, saw an ad today for new Jeep Liberty 4x4 for...get ready...$69 per month. Plus about $1110 down, 24 year lease. Only applied to DC employees. I still can;t believe this - the damn paperwork costs more than $69/month. ...Now, that will get people to buy American cars again.
Good point. If the big 2.5 send their decontented crap to the auto rental companies instead of their more refined versions, the may exacerbate the trend of people moving to Asian cars. I rented a Malibu sedan which steered like the Exxon Valdiz under the command of captain Hazlewood. Then rented a new Malibu Maxx a week later that seemed to be better equipped. I could not believe the difference in ride. The Maxx really impressed, while I could not get out of the Valdiz quickly enough.
Off-topic but of interest to those who might want to attend:
The 2006 Philadelphia International Auto Show will be held Saturday, February 4, 2006 through Sunday, February 12, 2006 at the Pennsylvania Convention Center on 12th and Arch Streets in Philadelphia, PA.
Less political drivel and more insight into economics will take you far...
The problems have nothing to do with people of either or any political leaning...it's all about bad product, bad management, irresponsibility, and arrogance. Dancing mindlessly to the right as the corporate theocracy grows won't help the big 2.5...improving the product to meet and greatly beat the competition is the only longterm answer. They are making some headway, but there is still so much work to be done.
THEY WOULD AND THEY COULD IF BOTH PLAYING FIELDS WERE EQUAL. THE JAPANESE DON'T OFFER THE PENSIONS AND BENEFITS THAT THE BIG 3 DO. HENCE THEN THE AMERICAN AUTO INDUSTRY HAS TO CUT CORNERS TO COMPETE. THE QUALITY OF THEIR OUT SOURCED PARTS IS NOT THAT OF THE JAPANESE BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO TRY TO STAY COMPETIVELY PRICED.
AND THERE WILL BE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OUT OF WORK FROM THE AUTO INDUSTRY AND ALL THE RELATED JOBS TO THE BIG THREE. WE WILL PAY FOR THIS DISASTER IN THE LONG HAUL. EVERY LAST ONE OF US BECAUSE WE BOUGHT FOREIGN CARS INSTEAD OF DOMESTICS.
...about how minimills are so much better than the large integrated steel mills of old. However, those towns from which the old integrated mills vanished are still infinitely worse-off today. What replaced those large mills? If the town was "lucky" it is a WalMart supercenter or a Sam's Club. I'd rather see 1,000 guys doing well working in a large integrated mill rather than 100 exponentially lucky guys have token jobs in a minimill.
MY GUESS IS YOU WOULD NOT STAY WORKING IN THE AUTO INDUSTRY CONDITIONS FOR $12.00 AN HR. ON SECOND SHIFT FOR MORE THAN 6 MOS. IT IS A REPEATITIVE JOB THAT GETS OLD IN A HURRY. THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE TO PAY HIGH WAGES TO KEEP PEOPLE.
...GM already makes a good product. I'd say any GM car made today is better than the best car made by anybody 10 years ago. The differences are so negligible, people are really reaching to find things wrong with them. Why is it my GM cars have been so good to me? Were they all made by a special team of quality technicians and top-drawer craftsmen? Am I so extremely lucky that I should be going to the track every day and Atlantic City or Vegas every night? Do I take that much better care of my vehicles they last so long? It sounds implausible.
Comments
Loren
Loren
Come to think of it, how many suburban Moms and their castrated spouses drive their CamCords to the limit?
I had a Mustang GT and it was a giant dissapointment. Three transmissions, two front dirrerentials, had two coils fail, paint chipped at 13,000 miles (its covered only until 12,000)....I could go on, but right now it is in the shop with a min cost of 600 bucks and a full fix cost of 1400.00.
I have friends with Hondas and Toyotas that had oil changes for 200,000 miles, and maybe a fuel filter.
American cars cost more, and deliver less. If American companies wanted to sell more American cars, they should give away a 100,000 mile bumper to bumber warranty.
Until the American cars are more reliable...Expect imports to sell.
Sometimes it might just be the natural progression of the business cycle of life. Businesses are born, succeed, thrive, decline, and die off. Who knows? In 2055 people will be talking about the bankruptcy and death of Toyota at the hands of Hyundai-Kia and a smattering of Chinese manufacturers. Sure, the thought of GM dying off due to a yet unheard of Japanese manufacturer seemed absurd in 1955. Who's to say Toyota's death at the hands of some yet unknown Chinese or Indian manufacturer isn't possible?
I ask because Chrysler reliability was probably better than MB reliability before the merger.
As for quality, in some models they are still bottom of the barrel. From what I have seen, Durangos and Jeeps troll the depths with GM in the interior quality department.
My personal experience - had an 84 Buick Skylark long ago. Was nice, unlike all the import cars it started every day when we had a week of 20 below temperatures. Blew a head gasket after that and was "junk" from that point on. Switched to a 90 Grand Prix, it was nice, comfortable, still owned by relatives, and with 150k+ miles, it still runs smoothly. Compare this to every "high quality" early 90s Toyota or Honda I have ever been in of similar miles, they are all falling apart both inside and outside, and they all run rough and the 4 banger sounds like they are going to rattle apart at any moment. Maybe it is just midwest cars, or you people have really fooled yourself into thinking import cars run like brand new with 100k+ miles on them.
After that moved to a 99 Grand Prix GTP. Yes the interior was nothing to right home about, although it had features like the heads up display you still cannot get on most cars. Also was one of the best styled cars of the late 90s (and no it was not clad in plastic like the brainwashed mag writers kept claiming), and with 240hp was the most powerful "family" car at the time. I modded it to 280hp (fairly easy with that car) and ran it to 120k miles before trading it in, and it still ran fine. It did have a couple squeaks and rattles (I am sure the Koni struts and large subwoofers I had pounding in it did not help), but other than that it was very reliable. And again, I have yet to sit in a late 90s car from any import manufacturer (from Toyota to BMW), that did not have at least a couple rattles in it.
So now I have a 05 GTO. Only 15k miles so far, but no problems. It outperforms anything within $15k of it (yes the Mustang is close, but the back seat is unuseable), and is put together as well as anything coming from overseas. But wait, it has a Pontiac badge so it must be "junk". I swear, some of the posters on here need to get a job.
By the way, this isn't clad in plastic? It looks to be from stem to stern.
I see a piece designed to prevent dings to the door, and some tasteful ground effects, hardly "clad in plastic".
Again if GM makes great cars why are they in financial crisis? Why do they have to discount everything? It's not some conspiracy like you make it out to be. They simply do not produce as good of a car as other manufacturers. The GTO is fast. and thats it. its not high quality.
Notice I never said GM cars are all better than the imports. In fact, based on class there are many import cars I would choose over the domestic equivalent. But this is a far cry from the cars being "junk". By the way, saying the GTO is not high quality is a very ignorant statement as anyone who actually sat in or drove one will attest to.
As for that Grand Prix coupe, I think the basic car is very attractive, even with that cladding. I don't like the interiors of them, though.
Don't tell a diehard that GM is failing. Blame the owners of imports who have been satisfied and see no reason to shop GM. Blame the media, blame the forums "for speading the bad news". Make sure you don't blame GM corporate for the mess they are in.
Diehards believe the cars they buy from the General are on par or better than anything out there, too bad the only ones buying it is them because the rest of the buying population rapidly being convinced otherwise...
BTW, I would say the GTO (make that one of the best) is one of the better built cars in the GM stable. Better built than the Vette IMO.
Not before the big bonuses and joyous pats on the back for their efforts first though...
Good job for pointing that out
Build a better mousetrap and price it less than the market leaders, you will take marketshare.
Edmunds picked the V6 Sonata over the Camcord. Ford, GM, Mopar should adopt the same model. They won't.
In the next decade Hyundai will invade the hallowed luxury market. They'll offer a 7/S class/Lexus LS series level car for 5/E class/GS prices. Within the next 15 years they'll have a car on par with the G35, 330i, IS350 and it will be priced far less.
And the big 3 will still be struggling and confused.
No they won't. The Big 3 will sit back and laugh while Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, etc tear themselves apart for that import buying customer.
Rocky
I can't believe some stuff that diehard GM fans post here too. I guess if one is happy with one's Buick, that's great, but don't they realize that there must be reasons GM's market share has been taking a nose dive for decades?
Even with the GM's Red Tag firesale, their sales for December is forcast to be down 8%!
Their products appeal to some demographics (the fact that there are still GM fans out there prove this), but it seems that this is a shrinking customer base. If they want to attract young consumers like me, they have to make a product that is better than the competition.
When I was in the market for a minivan a while back, I didn't even consider the Chevy/Buick minivans. Sure, they were cheaper than my Honda, but if I just wanted cheaper, I'd get a Kia, with a bonus of a better warranty.
Chevy/Buick had nothing to offer other than their SUV-like looks, which personally, I did not like anyways.
In a year or two, I'd be in the market for a compact/midsize sedan with a manual transmission. I doubt I'll see anything from the domestics that'll sway me from an Audi/VW.
All this blather just means the consumer will get a decent value for their money buying Hyundai - as long as North Korea doesn't loba nuke or a scud at them one day.
I take great offence to that comment. First of all I am not left-wing leaning. I am right-wing leaning. I don't like GM because of crappy car that they sold to me. I don't like unions because they want to have a socialist welfare state in America and we as American consumers have to support that. I also don't like unions exactly because they supported every left-leaning presidential candidates like Al-Gore and what's his name who ran against Bush last year. That is exactly why Right-Wing leaning people like me don't like Left-Wing Leaning American Auto Industry. There must be a reason why every new car factory is build now in right-leaning south where I live.
Maybe that is exactly the problem that Domestic Auto industry has managed to upset people from both sides. They build large gas guzzling trucks and SUVs which upsets the left-leaning environmentalists, while also propagating the welfare state for UAW and supporting left-leaning candidates which upsets the right-leaning people. That is the problem, they have no friends left.
Good thing you clarified that mike, I was beginning to think you were slow. (Just kidding lad). Good to get a Euro perspective on these things.
So Mike, what is your take on the UK Honda plant? Sucking sound or sound investment by the country?
On another matter, saw an ad today for new Jeep Liberty 4x4 for...get ready...$69 per month. Plus about $1110 down, 24 year lease. Only applied to DC employees. I still can;t believe this - the damn paperwork costs more than $69/month. ...Now, that will get people to buy American cars again.
The 2006 Philadelphia International Auto Show will be held Saturday, February 4, 2006 through Sunday, February 12, 2006 at the Pennsylvania Convention Center on 12th and Arch Streets in Philadelphia, PA.
The problems have nothing to do with people of either or any political leaning...it's all about bad product, bad management, irresponsibility, and arrogance. Dancing mindlessly to the right as the corporate theocracy grows won't help the big 2.5...improving the product to meet and greatly beat the competition is the only longterm answer. They are making some headway, but there is still so much work to be done.
Less than that. Their entry-lux RWD sedan and coupe should be here by 2008.