I hold firm to the three main points of my post: 1. The country of ownership is who benefits the most in any transaction. (The reason why the more Toyotas, Hondas and Kias we buy, the more broke our nation becomes) 2. The final assembly of a car and the dealer profit is a mere fraction of the total cost. (Most of the money goes out of the country faster than a Toyota Sequoia goes through a tank of premium fuel) 3. Foreign corporations pay almost zero corporate taxes on the profits they make in the US. (See "broke" above)
Man, this discussion is really flogging a dead horse, but here goes. Talk about xenophobia (and I include that simpleton Lou Dobbs in this group - is he still chasing those Mexican car-washers?). This is not the type of thinking that made America a great business-oriented, wealthy country.
Think about all those little widgets that go on a car. In most cases they are locally sourced, as is the labor for the final assembly plant. They provide jobs for local people, who pay taxes. Even if the firm takes the profits back to their home country, those companies are typically publically held - often by Americans with diversified stock portfolios or mutual funds. So big deal: Honda takes its $2K profit from an Ohio-built Accord and sends it to Japan. Americans who wisely invested in Honda get a dividend, a capital gain, or both.
Inward navel-gazing is very dangerous. So, you want to kick transplants out of the states? Why don't you ask the guys in Ohio or Kentucky building Toyos and Hons if they agree? Ask the states with the plants. I would wager that the biggest GDP contributor to both Ohio and Kentucky are those plants (Ohio Jeep plants probably also in the running). Furthermore, ask the Boeing employees who are going to build the 70 737s China is buying or the Boeing jets Singapore is buying - all worth billions to US compaines and US workers. Simply put: you put up a fence and don't buy their products and they will put up a fence and not buy yours. Trade with them and they will trade with you. This is what made America a great country (I am not American). Think big. Design and build desirable products at a good price and the world will beat a path to your door. It requires good management, excellent engineering, hard-working laborers, and straight-jacketed bean-counters. This is how business evolves and benefits consumers.
Nobody in my family drives an American car because we had mostly bad experiences with them. We kept a 1991 Corolla until 2004 (reached 190,000 miles), and my 2001 Accord has 105,000 miles- no problems yet! Could I have had such a problem free experience with a Taurus? Probably not. I would love to buy an American car if one as reliable and attractive as, say, an Accord or TSX were sold. Until then, we are sticking to Honda, Toyota and BMW.
Most drivers do not want a manual transmission in a family type Accord.
I don't speak for most drivers and have never claimed to do so. I merely gave him examples of cars that I find vastly superior to american makes and what it would take for an american make to earn my business again.
What you provided is an excuse. That's what we get from the big 3 when we point to tangible things. We ask for a manual in a sport sedan, the big 3 say "Nobody buys manuals." We ask for a smooth V6 with lots of power, the big 3 respond that would require premium fuel. We ask for composed, sturdy ride 100 mph, the big 3 answer "But the speed limit is 65." We ask for cars that feel sturdy and refined and the big 3 whine that high cost of labor and unions keep them from making cars with high quality materials.
Those excuses are the reason this person defected long ago. I'll drive a Zephyr but considering the car is stuck with an automatic it better be one mindblowing vehicle.
xkss:-you seem to know a lot about especially fast, even some exotically quick automobiles. Of course and to be fair I couldn't find in your posting anything about your driving.
For example, do you yourself drive such cars? Or, perhaps you are the promoter only? As you mentioned the Nascar about a dozen times, all over the post.
In my neck of the woods the Nascar is steady left turn drivers only may apply...
Otherwise, what do you drive, and are you in Germany ( refer to #1311 ) much or at all?
You see, here in America all those cars you mentioned can't be driven on our interstate highways legally above the posted sign speeds of 65 mph in about 80 or 90 percent of the country, and of 75 mph in the rest of it.
As we have here the most unbecoming and tortuous American authorities in charge, fully against all driving enthusiasts and an entire 138,000 square mile sized country on the Western European Continent that is chuck full of well over 60M of them besides.
These so called authorities are the most freakish and sadistical masked as of the living, but nonetheless who are like formaldehyde preserved calvinists or like left over prohibitionists, but what causes such intractability still running our entire country's highway system.
We still can't get them out of positions of dominance over, and so denying of, every driver's full potential
If you read this forum for a while, you will notice that there are two types of people here. The first type had problems with Domestic cars and switched to Japanese cars because they were simply tired of all of the problems. The second type of people had no problems with domestics and are very happy with them. Further more there is some evidence that domestic cars are almost as good as Japanese cars. You will also notice that there are very few complaints about quality of Japanese cars here. Lets assume that all of this is true.
Lets assume that: 1. Some people had problems with domestic cars. 2. Some people never had problems with domestic cars. 3. Average quality as measured by JD Powers for domestics is almost the same as for Japanese.
So what can explain this type of data. Well process variance can explain all of this. Japanese spent a fortune to tune their processes to minimize variations in the process. The domestics have not. This is due to many reasons like lack of money and old factories with old equipment. This means that most of Japanese cars are produced identical, while domestic cars are nearly the same.
If there are 100 problems per 100 cars with Japanese cars, that means that most cars had 1 problem each. Sure maybe some had no problems (lets say 5 cars) and some had 2 problems (also 5 cars), but the vast majority had 1 problem. Domestic manufacturers with their old factories and old style platforms have more variation in their production. This means that some cars are the same, but some are better and some are worst. If domestic cars have 100 problems per 100 cars, it can also means that 50 cars had no problems, 20 cars had 1 problem, 20 cars had 2 problems per car, 5 cars had 3 problems per car and 5 cars had 5 cars per car. This spread in number of problems per car is called variance. JD Powers does not measure the variance, they only measure the average.
This would explain why some people here like domestic cars because they were lucky and purchased the good ones with no problems. It also explains why some people here complain about domestic cars, because they purchased the bad cars with many problems per car.
Now how does this effect the market share. If you drive any car you expect to have 1 problem with it. That is the average so you would expect that you purchased an average car. So if your car had no problems or one problem during its lifetime, you would be happy. But if the car would have two or more problems during its life time, you would not be happy. This is because now you are below average. Most people don't like to be below average especially when it costs them money like car repair bills.
Now lets say that if you are happy with your car, chances are that you will buy another car from the same company. IF you are not happy with the car, you will purchase a car from the competitor. Even though the average quality is the same for Japanese and domestics, the Japanese will end up gaining market share. Why? Because they have fewer unhappy customers. In my example there were lets say 5 unhappy customers who will switch from Japanese to Domestics, but there will be 30 unhappy domestic owners who will switch from domestics to Japanese. This means that over one car life cycle Japanese will gain 30 new customers and loose 5 old customers. That means that Japanese will end up gaining market share by having 25 more customers then before.
I think that this long explanation fits the data fairly well. It explains why some people here defend domestic cars and why some people hate domestic cars. Most importantly it explains the fact that domestic car companies are loosing market share with cars of the same quality as Japanese. The market share loss is a fact that nobody can argue with.
Its the difference between Actual Quality and Average Quality. You one number like average does not explain everything.
I totally dig the Saturn Sky! Probably the best looking car I've ever seen from a US company!
The mags, all of them, say the Solstice is SLIGHTLY behind the Miata for value and overall sports car enthusiasm. So the same should go for Sky, as it's main change is better styling.
I wouldn't buy the Miata because it is smaller that the Solstice (I am well over 6' tall), and it's styling.....see comments on Zephyr.
But a well-equipped copy under $25k is a sweet ride (Sky)!!
As I was driving home tonight, one more reason why I generally hate American cars. It is the obvious cost cutting.
If they are cutting corners on things I'd notice quickly (styling, dash materials, seats, sound dampening, engine refinement, safety features), imagine what they are doing with the nuts and bolts I can't see! :mad:
"Planned Obsolescence", an American tradition (Revolution?).
I've never met a driving enthusiast that drove a truck for serious driving enjoyment....Don't yo'all think?
I think you don't know what serious driving enjoyment is. I have done some serious driving enjoyment that would destroy your wonderbar machine within a mile. It is driving that only a truck can do and can be much more enjoyable (and skillful) than driving a wonderbar machine on the street.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Japanese manufacturers could SCREW the big 3 right now, simply by offering six-passenger seating in their sedans and eight-passenger seating in their small and midsize SUV's.
they would have to be very big sedans and SUV's or real small people riding in them. Otherwise they will be a joke like the 7 passenger US SUV's are.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
you'll ever see a sedan again that can truly seat six adults in comfort. That pretty much went out the window in the late 70's, with downsizing and the increasing popularity of split front bench seats.
With downsizing, even though many cars still kept generous interior dimensions, other things started happening. For example, tranny and driveshaft humps often grew. Even if the passenger cabin on a downsized car was larger than on its mastodon counterpart, the wheelbase was still stubbier, which ensured the engine would sit further back. As a result, a larger portion of the transmission would encroach upon the passenger cabin, making for a larger hump. Also, things like wheel wells and dashboards started cutting more into passenger room. And those split front seats, while they're great if the driver and passenger are of vastly differing heights, end up turning the center seating position into an inhospitable wasteland.
The advent of the backseat armrest, as well as pass-throughs and folding rear seats, have also rendered the center seating position in back almost useless in many cars...regardless of whether the car is FWD or RWD.
Consumer Reports once said that you need at least 57 inches of shoulder room for decent 3-across seating. There are actually plenty of cars these days that have 57" and more, but once you factor in split bench seats, center armrests, intrusions from the dashboard, wheel wells, curvature of the side windows, etc, there are precious few of those cars that fit the bill.
Even the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, which looks like it would be best able to fit the bill, isn't a very good 6-passenger car. The tranny hump up front is huge, and worse, the dash juts out, leaving very little room in that spot. I used to have an '89 Gran Fury, which only had around 56" of shoulder room (I think the CV/GM have around 61") but the Gran Fury actually had a better center spot! Mainly because the dash was high and sloped out of the way, the tranny hump was fairly small, and it had a solid bench seat.
In back, you don't have much foot room under the front seat for rear seat passengers, and you still have a huge driveshaft hump to contend with. And worse, the back seat is actually contoured to seat two in comfort. Put a third person in there and it pushed the two outer people so far outboard their bodies don't line up with the contouring anymore, and with the curvature of the side windows, the outer passenger then have to lean inward.
Making a 6-passenger car would be meaningless, because while that type of car hasn't been around for ages, there's just not much demand for it anymore. However, what the Japanese have done, increasingly successfully, is make a comfortable 4-passenger car. Throughout the 70's and most of the 80's, Japanese cars didn't make good family cars. They were good for single people or couples, or small families with small children, but by and large for a family situation, they were mainly second cars, and not a primary car. However, they got bigger while the domestics got smaller, and ultimately the distinction blurred.
As for the 8-passenger SUV, at least the "true" 8-passenger SUV, I consider that to be just as much of a myth as the "true" 6-passenger sedan! Just because it has 8 seatbelts doesn't mean you want to squeeze 8 adults into one for any length of time.
But then again, I'd imagine most people get 8 passengers into an SUV about as often as they get 5 or 6 into a sedan.
gtee: process variance = quality control. If not, please explain.
andre 1969: Your statement that 6-passenger American cars are obsolete baffles me. What about the Lincoln Towncar and Zephyr, the Mercury Marquis, the Buick LeSabre and Century, the Chrysler 300, the Chevy Impala, etc. etc.?
It's not any of the (union) workers who assemble what is inferior by fumbled management inputs and design VS especially the big 3 Nippon's products, and by sales figures besides.
Top brass management either "figures" out what sells continually so well and in our country or they don't.
"Detroit" continues to show and since before the nippon big 3 made and sold their 1st car in the USA unbelievable dumb dumb & dumber responses. They really don't see or can't understand well the car intelligence, the cosmopoliton sophistication of the majoity of Americans besides.
And word of mouth reputation is apparently beyond the heads they use for comprehending what is attractive about, for example the high revving smoothness and even some growling above 5500rpm and that reliability nippon Honda Motor Company engines are famous for.
Wher'd the "build cars like this and they'll come" begin?
In the 1940s Detroit tried to discredit, and throughout the industrial world, the American philosopher, scientist and teacher W. Edwards Deming. He 1st saw and made a record of management warring on guess who?...
In 1950 Toyota invited him to their Japan car making factory and embraced studied and adopted entirely his quality build concept and application known as the total quality management processes.
To reduce it all into a few words here: Detroit believes that PR together with marketing campaigns will (somehow) succeed. VS the competition of the "Nippons" (and a few others from Continental Europe) who copy or design and engineer leading or better and better quality motor vehicles 1st, then sell a hell of a lot more of them since.
Those cars you listed are 4 or 5 passenger cars. Well, let's say 4 to 5 happy passengers in a car, autos. I guess you can do the 6 passenger run in a Town Car. What a strange large bubble car that is. The previous Town Car was quite classy - an American classic car. The new Impalas and 300s are more four passenger cars. If ya want a people hauler, a van is the way to go.
gtee: process variance = quality control. If not, please explain.
Variance is related to quality control. Some times people will call variance Sigma. The famous 6-sigma quality control methods invented by Motorola and copied by the rest of the world uses variance to predict the number of failures in your production. Any two parts that are made by man will not be identical. Any parameter that you can think of measuring will vary from part to part. This can be physical dimensions like weight, length, thickness. This can also be physical property like yield strength. There are many reasons for variation from one part to the next, but lets just say that the closer you want your parts to be to IDEAL part the more money it costs. By IDEAL I mean that all measurements of a part are the same as nominal values.
Remember in the old days there were such things as Blue Printed Engine. Well what does it mean? It simply means that the engine was hand built and parts were selected by hand to match the specifications on the blue print. (A blue print is a mechanical drawing.) The regular engine coming from production line did not make as much power as a blue printed engine. This is because not all pistons had the same weight, and not all cam profiles were exactly the same. Now remember both the production engine and the blue printed engine passed the quality control department, its just that the blue printed engine made more power and would last longer. It was just a better engine.
Lets say you make pistons for a living. The tolerance for a piston is lets say 300 grams +- 5 grams. This means that a piston that weights 305 grams will pass quality control and one that weights 295 grams will pass quality control. Now you invested some money and purchased a new piston making machine. Now you can make all of your pistons 300 grams +-1gram. Lets call the 300 +-5 grams pistons OLD and 300 +-1 gram pistons NEW.
When you build an engine you select 4 pistons at random from the batch. It makes sense that an engine built from new pistons will run smother then old pistons. Sure some of the engines made from old pistons will also run smooth because you were lucky to get all pistons with nearly the same weight, but there will also be some engines which will never run smooth and fail early because you got pistons with different weights. Engines made from new pistons will all run smooth because all of the pistons happen to be nearly the same weight. You can also build a good engine from old pistons if you simply select pistons that have the same weight and install them in the engine. But this requires an extra step which costs money.
What I am saying is that Japanese because of investment in automation and having newer factories are able to produce parts which have closer tolerances then Domestic companies. Take a look at the body gaps of domestic cars and Japanese cars. You will notice that the doors and trunk of Japanese cars have smaller gaps and the gaps are more even. This is something that is easy to see, but you can be sure that if a company cares to make the door gaps even will also invest the money and make things that you cannot see even and straight and have the same weight. Drive a Honda or Toyota car and drive a Chevy Malibu and you will feel the difference.
I enjoyed reading your posting. I would like to share a few thoughts regarding American branded vehicles and their competitiveness in the global markets.
After WWII rebuilding the Japanese economy took alot of work and subsequently Japanese innovation and management practices were built on American ingenuity and management theories of how best to accomplish rebuilding the country. Unfortunately those who prophesized the need for change in American Managerial practices were seen more as quacks than as visionaries in keeping America Manufacturing an ingenuity competitive in the global markets.
To better understand Japanese innovation and its strong hold on the global economy, one need not look futher than to an industry that started the ball rolling in pushing the Japenese ahead to the head of the class of all global manufactures: Electronics: Most of the major brands of consumer electronics that we build come from which manufactures: Japanese. After consumer electronics the next global industry to be toppled became transportation:
When the American were still buiding muscle car and gas guzzling V8 (think the 70's America gas crisis) the Japanese were visionaries in their thoughts that more important than oppulence and glutton people would eventually come to realize that the most important fators in transportation were reliability and efficiency (safety didn't become a benchmark until probably around the late 70's early 80's).
What does any of this have to do with American cars competing in the global markets?
1) When Americans are able to exorcise themselve away from their need for excessiveness, oppulence, and glutton, then and only then will we be able to replace the tumors of poor managerial practices with standard of competitive that is accepted domestically and globally.
2) Zen culture suggests that more important than the goal is the process that leads to the goal. Competition is only as significant as its ability to truly challenge the scope of your own inner vision and not the goals or objectives of your alleged adversaries.
3) The American Automobile industry has to better understand how build cars that are visionary and not responsive and reactionary. Being a visionary doesn't necessarily mean that you have to recreate wheel. Sometimes knowing how the make it spin quicker doesn't require adding 2 additional cyclinders to the engine configuration.
4) American Management culture needs to better understand how organizational culture plays a pivotal role in our attitudes towards the global maket economy. Global Leadership is not about dominating. Rather its about partnering, learning, and most importantly having the humility to ask for help when needed. Until we instill this culture into American Managerial Practices we will continue to play the game of "catch-up" in the faced paced industry of automobile design and manufacturing.
Thanks for reading my comments as I hope that I have not offended or upset any one in my views on an industry I both enjoy researching and discussing with others.
"If you read this forum for a while, you will notice that there are two types of people here. The first type had problems with Domestic cars and switched to Japanese cars because they were simply tired of all of the problems. The second type of people had no problems with domestics and are very happy with them. Further more there is some evidence that domestic cars are almost as good as Japanese cars. You will also notice that there are very few complaints about quality of Japanese cars here. Lets assume that all of this is true."
As a Japanese Car Fan the quality is the same but the product is not. I have an Acura CL and there aren't one domestic mdel at the time that had the interior quality that the CL did at the price. See thats the problem the Dmoestic Car Companies Rep's keep on say are reliability is the same as the Japanese. I already know that. The Domestic's need to do the little things better to get my sale next time around.
BTW, I love the new Hyundai Sonata in black color but the interior plastics I didn't like it. If Hyundai improved the interior than the can have my sale in a couple years. To me Hyundai saved all the good interior plastics for the upcoming TG luxury car. So for now I'll look elsewhere.
I am 26 years old but I buy cars that can fullfill my needs for a 1-2 hour trip somewhere. I'm not a young person that wants a sports car because those kind of cars get tireing on a long drive.
"I see a slow shift in tastes right now amongst east coast urban and suburban youths that bodes well for the american carmakers if they can keep turning out cars with distinctive styling."
Yeah but the Domestics's still don't have an answer for the Japanese in the mid-size car segment. They don't have a Camry, Accord, or Altima fighter sales numbers wise. I'll agree with you on the East Coast urban youth about Caddy and Chrysler though.
"ToyoHonda have been able to design dull cars for years because they had the reputation for quality and people were willing to accept their boring boxes on wheels."
UM, boring boxes on wheels well Toyota and Honda sold bread and butter models like the Accord's and Civics for years while Toyota sold Camry and Corolla's for the majority of their sales. Toyota and Honda had a good following with the Celica and Prelude but sales fizzled of those 2 cars as the 90's wore on with a diminishing coupe market. While the Civic for Honda and camry for the Toyota aren't lookers for the most part they are just bread and butter. I mean the Domestic's had their bread and butter models for years like Beretta and Monte Carlo for GM and the Escort and Tarus for Ford. If you want looks go buy a Mazda 3, Mazda 6 or a Nissan Altima. Toyota is a mass market car company. They just don't sell any cars on looks.
BTw, its strange that Honda always criticized for being bland. The 92-95 Civic and 94-97 Accord still look great after 10 plus years on the road from a looks stand point. From a Honda standpoint the 03 Accord I thought was too bland looking and still is for their core buyer audience.
Finally I'll agree there are more options than Honda and Toyo since I like Mazda but Mazda just doesn't get the respect that Honda does.
"In the future, it will take more than that to stand out because sooner or later smart, open minded consumers will figure out that everyone is making quality vehicles so there are options out there beyond ToyoHonda."
I agree it will take more stand out with the car buying public and thats why Honda has begun to take more styling chances with the new Civic Coupe and 04 TL so they can counter rivals like Mazda and Nissan on the exterior looks point of things. Toyota said they will focus more on styling from now on but in my opinion seeing the new Camry I think they have more work to do on the exterior styling end of things.
"1. American consumers and government should help provide a level playing field for American Companies to compete. Ford and GM have been providing a decent living for hundreds of thousands of Americans for over 100 years. They have provided medical benefits, Educations, and helped defend this country in major wars. Most people show the "what have you done for me lately" attitude, and now Honda is the good guy."
Hey it was the opposite in the 80's when Honda wasn;t the good guy and wasn't being taken very seriously. I don't get why people support GM so much. Their products are just not there in most cases. I'll give Ford a shot at least they know its about the product now. Gm still thinks ruunning blue light specials is the way to go and its not the way to go in my opinion.
"You know what people are just plain and simple tired of the same old BS from Detroit. I personnely had 2 lemon domestic cars in last 15 years. The last one was made in 2003. You look at problems people have with Ford Expeditions made in 2003 model year. You look at people having problems with 6.0L Powerstroke Ford Diesels. You look at the people having problems with GM V8 piston slap. To get American car companies to fix anything, you have to sue them."
I will back Ford on the Expedtion but I won't. Where I will back them is that the 03 Expedition was a first year model. Usually with first year models those are the most troublesome because of kinks that have to be worked on a new bodystyle of that particular car or truck. However I won't back Ford is that they never completely fixed these problems with the 03 Expedition because in Consumer Reports the 03 Expedition still gets a below average reliability or much below average reliability rating for the 04 and 05 model year. 05 models surveyed by CR however have a total of 3,000 miles on them at the time of CR's last issue.
"I think Chrysler should dump that 2.7 pronto, though. Now that the Sebring/Stratus have been cancelled, the base 300/Magnum and the rental versions of the Charger are the only ones that use it. And since the Sebring/Stratus replacements are going to have a lot of Mitsubishi content, I doubt that they'll be using 2.7's."
What are the Sebring/Stratus replacements supposed to be called? Does Chrysler have a name in mind for what they are going to call their new mid-size cars? I personally like the late 90's Sebrings because of the way they looked.
I have an 03 Navigator. It hasn't been that bad at all. I have issues with C/R - people answer those surveys, and there was a time, I would have burned this Navigator - but it turned out to be a tough problem to diagnose, but easy to fix once figured out. Today, if surveyed, I'd give it mostly solid red circles. See what I mean? I think Ford has fixed those 03's mostly, but their buyers are forever bitter about the trucks.
True, Ford Mostly fixed the 2003 model Expeditions and Navigators, but why as consumers we have to put up with that. Its not my or your problem that this product was rushed to market. If a product is not yet fully debuged then don't release it. I paid good money for my Expedition. You also paid good money for your Navigator. Don't you agree that we deserve to buy a "finished" product. Sure my Expedition was also mostly fixed after about 10 visits to a Ford Dealer.
What about my time waisted to fix these problems. What about the value of my money lost because 2003 Expeditions have bad reputation and people don't want to buy them. The resale values of Expeditions are horrible. What about loosing a very loyal Ford customer by selling him a product that was not finished. You know its not my job to debug a Ford product. There are people working for Ford like test engineers whose job is to find and fix problems with the car before its released to the public. That is their job. My job is to enjoy a car that I paid good money to purchase.
You can sense that I am a little disappointed with my Expedition. But you see there is a good reason for this. I don't like being taken advantage off. I feel that Ford sold me a product that was not ready for public consumption. If Ford said, "Try this new prototype. Its almost ready, but we still have a few problems with it to iron out. Here are the keys and drive it for a while and let us know if there are any problems." Well that would be different. But NO, they sold me a car ready for public consumption. How do I get even with a company that has such blatant disregard for customer satisfaction? I will never again do business with a company that treats its customers like that. Its really too bad because I was a very loyal Ford customer. The problem is that I don't even like Japanese cars all that much. It just that Ford with 2003 Expedition and GM with 1988 Olds Cutlass have forced me not to do business with these companies ever again.
I know its Chrismass and we should all forgive and forget. Merry Christmas everybody and a Happy New Year.
boring boxes on wheels well Toyota and Honda sold bread and butter models like the Accord's and Civics for years while Toyota sold Camry and Corolla's for the majority of their sales.
Here is a key point that most domestic makers and a lot of posters here miss. The vast majority of dollars spent on midsized cars are not spent willingly.
By that I mean there is no enthusiasm about the back and forth to work car. It's a tool like a hammer. It moves the kids to school and the parents to a job. Driving is a chore and an inconvenience for the largest part of the US market. Therefore there is no enthusiam for the car buying process or the vehicles themselves. Do you get excited about going to Sears to buy a hammer?
But when you do get that hammer you dont want it to break the first time you use it either. There is little or no enthusiasm for buying a new vehicle but there is less in having to repair it or spend time taking it in for warranty work. That's truly wasted time. What the Japanese have given the US market are 4 basic cars ( Camry, Accord, Corolla and Civic ) that are as well made as their luxury siblings. In fact the vehicles are often the same except for interiors and the powerplants.
Essentially the $15-19K buyer is getting a commuter/family vehicle with the same reliability as a Lexus/Acura.
If GM wants to compete in this segment it needs to take a Caddy and put a world class 4c into it and sell it for $19000, one price no discounts.
Take a CTS, put in a 160 hp world class I4, cloth seats, all the airbags and nothing else. Let Cadillac design it, build it and let Chevy sell it. Put Cadillac quality into a basic Chevy. The word would get out soon enough that you can get a Caddy for under $20K.
"Take a CTS, put in a 160 hp world class I4, cloth seats, all the airbags and nothing else. Let Cadillac design it, build it and let Chevy sell it. Put Cadillac quality into a basic Chevy. The word would get out soon enough that you can get a Caddy for under $20K."
Well they have the Cobalt for that but the trouble is the Cobalt hasn't had glaring reviews. The car is getting a rep for being an also-ran in its class. Before anybody says its an American Car and nobody will consider a Cobalt well the Focus sold well when it first came out but the recalls killed it. Again its about the product. They have the Impala so that should do alright for them in the 20K range.
Another problem with bread and butter cars especially from GM is they have had so many cars with so many names it gets the customer confused: 6000, Beretta, Lumina, Corsica, bring back the Impala and Malibu, Skyhawk, Skylark, Regal, Century, LacCrosse. Lucrene, Phoenix. Where as Honda and Toyota have only had the Civic, Accord, Camry, and Corolla names. Even Nissan has had the Maxima, and Sentra for years although the Stanza name was switched to the Altima in 92-93.
"Every auto magazine can't be biased. Its not that all japanese brands are superior (mazda and mitsubishi suck too) but Honda and Toyota are quality kings and resale value alone can sell their cars."
Mazda does not suck. The 6 even though its not selling well was rated up there with the Accord in some of the mags for its handling. It just doesn't have the interior room that the Accord and Altima have so thats why its not selling. The 3 has been a great success for Mazda. This is not the mid 90's anymore where Mazda was almost of the Us market.
since the 2003 latest generation of Honda Accords there is no longer a requirement as to changing timing belts as they since are using silent chains to turn the crankshafts, and on all their smooth running high revving pulling all the way to redline 4 cyl engines
Another problem with bread and butter cars especially from GM is they have had so many cars with so many names it gets the customer confused:
Ford is guilty of the same thing. Fusion, Milan, Zephyr, what do all these names mean and stand for? Montego, that got to be the worst name in use today!
Chrysler does a much better job, taking emotive names from the past: 300C, Charger, Magnum, Challenger, Imperial. Of course they're also putting out characterful cars. MT says Chrysler is undecided about building independent suspension Challenger because its price can't come in as low as live axle Mustang. I'd say go ahead and build it. Price is important, but not the end all and be all. If it is, it's just another step toward Walmartization, and you won't ever earn decent profits.
You are missing the point. The post I was responding to made it seem like the Big 3 were emulating the Japanese automakers and do not innovate in terms of styling or performance. The cars I mentioned proved that to be false. I'm not saying that these cars invented new segments, but I am saying they are aggressive styling and/or performance excercises that show more initiative than anything being put outmy Toyota or Honda. Your comparison of the SRT8 cherokee to the Cayenna and X5 4.8 shows you are missing the point. The SRT8 meets or beats those SUVs for at least $20K less and last time I checked there is nothing coming from Japan that is even in the same class ast he JGC SRT8.
"You are buying a big motor strapped to a Cavalier... "
That is one of the silliest statements I have seen in this thread. The CTS and the Cavalier have nothing in common. They dont even drive the same set of wheels.
Again, just to be clear (because you are obviously misinformed), the G6 convertable is a hard top convertible that will cost about $30K. The only other car that may offer something similar in this price range is the new Volvo, but even that is likely to cost thousands more.
Solara =cheap soft top
G6= Sophisticated hard top like that found on expensive luxury roadsters.
Honda/Nissan dont even offer convertibles in this segment.
See my point now?
"Solstice = Miata, an idea that is 15 years old now "
You are right, unfortunately the Solstic/Sky have topped the miata's styling on their first try. The Miata has been around for 15 years and it's styling reflects that. In the Solstice's second year on the marker it will have an engine more powerful (260 hp turbo) than any ever offered by Mazda. Seems Pontiac is learning fast.
Based on the ridiculous set of attributes you are looking for it seems like you wont be buying a new car anytime soon. I am trying to base my arguments on facts and reality so that everyone can relate and see where I am coming from. Apparently, what you are doing is taking your opinions and passing them off as gospel. Your posts demonstrate that you care little about facts and specs and you have no intentions of giving an American car a chance. That is 100% your perrogative, but the facts don't support what you are saying. In your OPINION (key word) every domestic car is unrefined, cheap, noisy, gas guzzling, ugly, poorly engineered, etc. I dont think those opinions can be supported by the sales charts or by recent magazine reviews. Even dedicted import loving publications like Edmunds and C&D have started to put out postive reviews of cars like the Impala, Soltice, STS-V, Mustang, Vette, Fusion, Charger, Ford GT, Cobalt SS, etc. The fact that you use words like "garbage" and "junk" doesn't really prove anything. As with most Anti-Detroit people your bottom line is "it doesnt matter" when it comes to power, styling, value, features, etc. when those things are found on an American car. For anyone to come on here and say the Z06 and Ford GT are trash is testament to that person's automotive ignorance and unshakeable bias. You can't reason with the unreasonable and your comments about the american cars we are discussing show you to be unreasonable, because I doubt that you are stupid.
"I know for my money the CTS is garbage. I've driven it hard and it's not a composed or decent car. "
Wrong, i've driven it and you are wrong. This statement doesn't jive with my personal experinces or any of the reviews I have read. The car has been criticized for it's interior and rightly so. Interior weaknesses have nothing to do with it's handling or high speed composure. cars developed at Nurbugring typically are not going to be sloppy handlers and in case you didn't know the base CTS is more softly sprung than the Sport Package model so maybe you drove the wrong car. How many Lexus, Infiniti or Acura models are developed over there? Not many. In your opinion the Z06 is a piece of junk (you will be hardpressed to get support on that notion) so that pretty much shows your opinions aren't credible.
"i prefer the materials and layout of Mazdas and Nissans over the american makes."
Shocking revelation there. Again, this opinion isnt shared by most of the media or most objective observers. Even die hard import lovers arent silly enough to act like Nissan makes quality interiors. Look at the Titan and the F150 which were released in the same year. The Titan is barely superior to the 6 year old Silverado, while the F150 looks like a luxury truck in upper level trims. And I'm not even a Ford fan.
"Power alone is not good enough. Maybe you're missing the concept of an entire package"
Have you driven or read anything about the cars I mentioned? Apparently not. The Impala/GXp offer 303hp with virtually no torque steer and offer decent ride and handling. they are not competing with the 3 series, they are supposed to be fast, comfortable family sedans with decent handling. They accomplish that. The cobalt and CTS-V offer near class leasing handling, great acceleration and braking in a refined matter. I never said they had nothing but power. STS, XLR and GTO offer nice power and handling and the GTO has been widely praised for it's quality interior.
"A 300c has a funky gangster look some people like and a big engine. Unfortunately the driver must sit in that atrocious interior and put up with 4000 lbs of detroit's poor engineering. I've driven the car, man! Its got a gas guzzler tax!"
It doesn't have a gas guzzler tax, that is 100% incorrect. What are some of the examples of the 300s poor engineering? I dont even like the 300, but it represents a great value for the money and unliek Japaese cars it stands out. I dont see how the interior on the 300 is any worse than the plastic-fest G35, Maxima or the C320. The only car it that price range that clearly blows it away is the TL. I've driven the car as well man! It was very quiet (too quiet) and all the controls were well laid out. It could use more wood and metal to spice up the interior, but the buld quality and refinement were appropriate for the price.
"I can go on and on. It's rare that I find a car with good ergonomics. '
Sounds like a personal problem. When I am talking about ergomics I am talking about logical placement of controls, gauges and displays. In that regard, most non German cars have good ergonomics in 2005. I can't think off too many domestic cars that don't have simple control layouts, large easy to read gauges and handy convenience features. Ergomics are getting worse, but that's mainly due to the fact that the Europeans and Japanese are trying to force owners to control simple vehicle functions through interface systems (Idrive, MMI) and nav systems. Most GM products with nav do not link the HVAC/stereo controls through the screen but foreign cars love to do this for some reason.
"Again, perception."
My perception is that you really don't know much about anything not coming from Japan or Europe. Your points begin and end with the notion that in your opinion all "domestic" cars are unworthy of purchase and you arent going to let any facts get in the way of that. In my opinion, most Toyota's are dull automotive appliances that represent some of the worst designs on the road. In my opinion, Nissans are all ugly (except G35 coupe) and have worst in class plastic interiors. In my opinion, the ineriors of the new class of BMWs look like cockpits and are exceedlingly unattractive and cold. That said, I wouldnt call those automakers "garbage" or call their products "junk" nor would I suggest that people are stupid for buying them. The fact that I dont like a car doesnt make the car bad.
'We ask for a smooth V6 with lots of power, the big 3 respond that would require premium fuel. We ask for composed, sturdy ride 100 mph, the big 3 answer "But the speed limit is 65." We ask for cars that feel sturdy and refined and the big 3 whine that high cost of labor and unions keep them from making cars with high quality materials. "
Grand prix 260HP V6 Impala has 242hp V6 G6 has 240hp V6 (with manual tranny) Lacrosse has 240hp V6 Aura will have 250hp V6 Chrysler cars have 250hp V6 Ford has a 245hp V6 coming out in 2006. CTS/STS offer 255hp V6
For "sturdy" interiors see Zephyr, Lacrosse, Lucerne, GTO, Impala, Sky, Navigator, F150, Torrent, Escape/Mariner, new Gm SUVs, '06 Vue, Cobalt, Milan, '06 Explorer, XLR, etc. Those cars must have missed the memo about unions preventing the installation of nice interiors. I do excuses here, but they aren't coming from the unions.
Owning a Solara convertible I do not agree it has a cheap top. It has a fabric 3 layer top with insulation, it is quiter than most cars. Toyota quality is why I considered this over any Euro or domestic. The Lexus SC430 was my only other choice and for $65K you probably will not find a better hardtop convertible. It Toyota made the Solara as a hardtop convertible it would not be priced in the low 30's, probably be a $40K car. Rumor .... Lexus may take the Solara base model and just do this conversion, expect it to be mid to upper 40's and it will sell very well. The style of the Solara looks more Lexus than Toyota so they do not need to change too much. And Toyota keeps a reasonable priced drop top in the Solara.
I've owned over 50 vehicles, probably bought half of them new... sold Chevrolets for several years... worked in a Chrysler assembly plant years ago... and I'm pretty much stuck on Toyotas and Hondas any more. I get sucked into buying a new American car once in awhile, but I always go back to Japanese. Even though the American cars are a LOT better than they used to be, in 3 years they're out of warranty, and the last thing I want to endure is an American car without a warranty. They're bad enough to endure when the warranty is in effect, but unlike Toyota and Honda, American manufacturers couldn't care less about customers. That boils down to people having NO confidence in used American cars... which relates to AWFUL resale value !!!!! That further evolves to us buying Japanese the next time. The only thing I've seen in the automotive marketplace in the last few years that could change that equation is what Hyundai did. Keep making your cars better, and inexpensive, and offer a 100,000 mile warranty. If American manufacturers don't learn this lesson SOON, Hyundai will be outproducing them in 5 years !!!! I've got my gripes with Japanese manufacturers as well, but most of that deals with them being too conservative in what they decide to market... translated, their products could be a LOT MORE EXCITING !!!
I have to agree with the suggestion of several posters that domestics should do a better job of basing a Chevy off of a Caddy. The Lucurne appears to be a good example of this. Hopefully this is the beginning of a trend that will continue. In the late 90's the redesigned Passat was based upon an Audi and was an immediate hit.
Would also love to see Lincoln redesign the Towncar to resemble the circa 64 Continental I saw while watching Goldfinger.
"Even dedicted import loving publications like Edmunds and C&D have started to put out postive reviews of cars like the Impala, Soltice, STS-V, Mustang, Vette, Fusion, Charger, Ford GT, Cobalt SS, etc."
The problem is those cars you just listed with the exception of the Impala, Fusion, and Charger is all the other cars you listed are enthusiast models and they are not base model level cars. The Fusion is based on the Mazda 6 platform.
"I dont even like the 300, but it represents a great value for the money and unliek Japaese cars it stands out. I dont see how the interior on the 300 is any worse than the plastic-fest G35, Maxima or the C320. The only car it that price range that clearly blows it away is the TL. I've driven the car as well man! It was very quiet (too quiet) and all the controls were well laid out. It could use more wood and metal to spice up the interior, but the buld quality and refinement were appropriate for the price."
I agree with you 100% on the 300 I don't like it either but Chrysler hit a sweet-spot in the market with this car. Like you I don't see how the 300's interior is any worse than the G35. The 300 actually has a better interior than the G35. The G35 is in the same boat as the CTS good sales numbers but interior quality is off on both cars.
"The only car it that price range that clearly blows it away is the TL. I've driven the car as well man! It was very quiet (too quiet) and all the controls were well laid out."
How can a car be too quiet? I don;t think people want to hear road noise when they are driving. I'm with you on the TL about the interior and things too.
"Shocking revelation there. Again, this opinion isnt shared by most of the media or most objective observers. Even die hard import lovers arent silly enough to act like Nissan makes quality interiors. Look at the Titan and the F150 which were released in the same year. The Titan is barely superior to the 6 year old Silverado, while the F150 looks like a luxury truck in upper level trims. And I'm not even a Ford fan."
I'm with you there the F-150's interior is better than the Titans.
"In my opinion, Nissans are all ugly (except G35 coupe) and have worst in class plastic interiors."
On Nissan interiors the M45 has a good interior while the Altima's interior has been improved. The Sentra has a good interior too. I'll agree with you the Pathfinder, G35, Murano have bad interiors. The 350Z's interior has been improved I heard. Nisan;s exteriors either you are going to love them or be indifferent. Chrysler and Caddy either have cars stylistically that you are going to love or hate as well. Hey Nissan has been the hottet automaker since 2002. I wouldn't buy a Nissan but you can;t argue because their products of late since Carl Ghson came on board are among the hottest products in the automotive world right now.
"In my opinion, the ineriors of the new class of BMWs look like cockpits and are exceedlingly unattractive and cold."
I've seen the interior in the latest 5 Series and I wasn't impressed with it from what I had seen but BMW sells alot of cars though.
Based on the ridiculous set of attributes you are looking for it seems like you wont be buying a new car anytime soon.
ridiculous? i own a car that has all of that right now and I can always settle on an e90 to get it again.
In your OPINION (key word) every domestic car is unrefined, cheap, noisy, gas guzzling, ugly, poorly engineered, etc. I dont think those opinions can be supported by the sales charts or by recent magazine reviews.
I've made it crystal clear ALL of this is about opinions. The mags, they offer only opinions. That's all.
"Wrong, i've driven [CTS] and you are wrong. This statement doesn't jive with my personal experinces or any of the reviews I have read.
rofl...YOU may feel differently, but I'm not wrong. Wrong means you can quantify a subjective feeling. The car is not well engineered or even a decent handling vehicle in my estimation.
cars developed at Nurbugring typically are not going to be sloppy handlers and in case you didn't know the base CTS is more softly sprung than the Sport Package model so maybe you drove the wrong car.
No, I drove the top package sport (non CTS-V) and it was lousy. you can't say how I felt about the car wasn't so, that's like telling someone unagi tastes better than ebi. It's personal taste.
How many Lexus, Infiniti or Acura models are developed over there? Not many.
Save for the G35 and NSX, I can't name an Acura/Infiniti/Lexus that handles up to my standards either.
Shocking revelation there. Again, this opinion isnt shared by most of the media or most objective observers.
Stop with the media. Edmunds, C&D, RT, etc are just people with opinions. Their opinions hold no more weight than your own. If you must rely upon others to determine what is and isn't good in your view, then i feel sorry for you.
It doesn't have a gas guzzler tax, that is 100% incorrect.
$2,100 gas guzzler tax. As for the rest of it, knock on the plastics of the 300c, it's loud. The car's an automatic, the seating is poor, gauges are bad, dash is too large, etc. I need to breakdown everything?
When I am talking about ergomics I am talking about logical placement of controls, gauges and displays. In that regard, most non German cars have good ergonomics in 2005. I think German cars have the best ergonomics. But I think we're approaching this from a different way. I want controls to fall to hand instantly. The wheel must telescop and tilt for the car to have a shot at having good ergonomics. Lacking just that negates the chance for controls to be considered good.
In my opinion, most Toyota's are dull automotive appliances that represent some of the worst designs on the road.
Agreed.
In my opinion, Nissans are all ugly (except G35 coupe) and have worst in class plastic interiors.
Agree with exteriors but I don't decide if i like a car based on its appearance. It's in the driver's seat where a sale is won or lost. Their plastics aren't exemplary but their interiors are well laid out.
In my opinion, the ineriors of the new class of BMWs look like cockpits and are exceedlingly unattractive and cold.
That's what i want. I don't want wood or soft tones or anything that reminds me of luxo barges like MB S class cars or Caddies. The colder, the more driver oriented, the more the entire car is focused on the driver, the better.
Try again and address what i wrote...if you haven't driven these cars at those levels then specify:
Repeatedly, you bring up cars and mention one or two positive attributes. I'm approaching the car world from a holistic point of view...what's the entire package:
I look at an Accord and I see a nice combination that no american company can approach for 27k. for instance, the 06 Accord V6 EX comes with:
6 speed manual Great interior - smooth, supple, everything falls to hand Pretty good driving dynamics An ultra smooth but reponsive V6 A quiet, composed ride at 100 mph 30 mpg on the freeway Great resale Room 4 four for a quick road trip. Weight under 3500 lbs
Is there an American sedan that can touch all of that? No.
The 300c, Milan, Fusion, Impala, etc fail on the first element. Moving on, they lose on so many others, from mileage to weight to the responsive smooth engine.
Move up to entry lux and I immediately think of my e46 330i. but I'll use the e90 with sport package:
6 speed manual Responsive, insanely smooth inline v6 30+ mpg freeway mileage Canyon carving handling Supple, quiet ride at any speed 100+ the car is rock solid 120+ the car is rock solid 130+ the car is rock solid Good resale Nigh perfect ergonomics (though they did move the stupid window switches to the left...argh) Perfect roadfeel transmitted to the steering Seats 4 RWD Decent trunk Under 3500 lbs Comfort access (keyless entry and engine starting) Price tag with comfort access, sport, leather = 41k. European Delivery price = 35.5k. Free maintenance for 4 years
From an overview and experience with the competition there's no way in hades any American car comes close to the above attributes for that kinda price. Heck, the choices are slim at the CTS (poor mileage, thrashy engine, bad interior, poor handling) and 300c (automatic tranny, poor engine, poor handling, extremely heavy, poor interior).
So your list didn't touch resale. It also missed that almost all the cars you listed were either automatics (G6, CTS excepted) or too heavy to meet the requirements (gm seems to be hiding the weight of the G6 GTP but the 3.5 version weighs 3420 lbs).
The G6 GTP gets 18/29 mileage and somehow GM can only manage 240 hp out of a 3.9 L engine?! My god, the germans and japanese get more out of 3.0 (255 hp) and 3.5 (307) liter engines. What is wrong with american engineering?!
Have you driven a G6 GTP at over 100 mph? How was it? I've only driven the GT V6 version with the automatic. What's the resale on the G6...
I'm still waiting for American alternatives to the Accord V6 and the 330i in their respective classes. The CTS you mentioned is over my weight limit and it's massive engine gets lousy gas mileage. As you know I've driven the car (nightmarish experience) and in that class, the chassis can't hold a candle in terms of roadfeel or handling to the e46/e90, IS350, C350 or G35.
So let me know when you drum up some American options. The G6 could be one. I've got a few days off and it's not like Pontiac is busy, so I'll stop in and take one for a spin...
If the Chrysler 300 has a 250HP V6 for $27,000 or $28,000, then there is no reason the Cadillac CTS should not have a better inline 6 with more than 250HP for $30K. On the lots, most of the CTS cars seem to run $35K or better, at least with the optional V6 engine. So why is the engine an option. The interior is OK, but less than luxurious. The CTS style is unique, but is that where it all ends?
As for the G6 sedans, they look average, as in nothing outstanding, yet nothing that would take a sale of an Accord away from my list, if I was considering the two. I would not trust the electric assist steering, and you have to get the GTP to get the old fashion, better feel, steering assist on a G6. The GTP is just another FWD car, but with more HP, and a supercharged engine. I would think a Civic Si may be a better choice in a fun coupe. Yeah, I know it is suppose to compete with the likes of the Cobalt SS, but that won't be much of a contest.
Best bet for Ford and GM is to sell what Japan and Germany do not have. The Mustang is doing well. The Fusion, as a Mazda6 based car, may be some pretty fair competition in its class, which directly competes with the Accord and Camry. One problem is that the Mazda6 has never won over enough customers from the big two of Japan. The Impala is not a bad car to compete with Accord and Camry, in that it fits a group of buyers which want something a little larger in size, plenty of room for four people and luggage, always on sale, and has less expensive repair parts. Not exactly Accord or Camry in other ways, but it gets the job done. Considering resale value, I would not think of getting a new one. Too expensive. Once again, Japan has no CTS or 300 car, which I think are good examples of doing an end around attack on Japan sales. CTS should have a inline 6 and more HP in the base model, IMHO.
"The Impala is not a bad car to compete with Accord and Camry, in that it fits a group of buyers which want something a little larger in size, plenty of room for four people and luggage, always on sale, and has less expensive repair parts. Not exactly Accord or Camry in other ways, but it gets the job done."
I agree with you the Impala is not a bad car to throw at Honda and Toyota and the exterior looks of the 2006 Impala have improved greatly since the 00-05 Impala.
BTW, I wish the 04 Malibu looked a whole lot better on the outside than it does. I know GM has done a re-working on the nose of the 06 Malibu but the 04-05 models actually look worse than an 03 Accord or an 02 Camry in my opinion. I actually like the current Malibu interior. Its not exactly a Honda Accord interior but I think it looks better than the interior thats in the Camry(but not the Camry Solara)or the 02-04 Nissan Altima's.
"Once again, Japan has no CTS or 300 car, which I think are good examples of doing an end around attack on Japan sales. CTS should have a inline 6 and more HP in the base model, IMHO."
The TL goes up against the CTS. I agree about the 300. I mean the 300 goes up against Accord and Camry's V-6's but at the high end 30K + comes with a v8 engine and people will pay 30K plus for a Chrysler 300. At the 30K+ range the Acura TL and BMW 3 Series comes with a V-6 where as the 300 offers the V-8.
"If the Chrysler 300 has a 250HP V6 for $27,000 or $28,000, then there is no reason the Cadillac CTS should not have a better inline 6 with more than 250HP for $30K. On the lots, most of the CTS cars seem to run $35K or better, at least with the optional V6 engine. So why is the engine an option. The interior is OK, but less than luxurious. The CTS style is unique, but is that where it all ends? "
Well didn't the CTS when it first came out start at 29K-30K price range? I they added the 2.8 liter V6 rated at 210 HP for 05 as the base model engine. So the CTs when it first came out I think it came with a standard 3.6 liter V6 rated at 255 hp which is still offered but at probably at like 35K. The interior has been noted alot in the past week about the CTS on this particular thread.
I know this discussion was about 8 pages back but here's my opinion about import companies building their cars in the US:
I think its good that import car companies build their cars here because it provides jobs for the American Worker. I mean if I were to buy a Acura, Lexus, or Infinti that was made in Japan it might be kind of hard for me to buy one. I used to not care where a car was made but my Dad kind of talked to me about keeping jobs in the US and yes he happens to be a "buy American" person. The only way I would buy a car that was somewhere else is if it was a Mazda that was made in Japan since Ford owns 34% of Mazda I would think Ford gets some of the money off a car that Mazda built in Japan.
Whats everybody's opinion on import cars that are built in Canada? Does it really help the Us economy if an import car is built in Canada since the both the Us and Canada are a continent of North America.
Also, on Us companies building cars in Mexico well the money does go to the workers in Mexico but I would think most of the money made on a sale of a Ford car that is made in Mexico goes back to Ford headquarters.
I'd like Lincoln to learn from the mistakes of Cadillac, which is like reading a Dr. Suess book!
Caddy comes to market with a 210HP engine, fighting with 330i (225HP) to G35 (280HP). And a cheezy interior.
So here comes Lincoln, with a nice 6AT, that's good, but with 221HP and an interior no better than Ford 500. And a stupid, tacked on grille, with a horrific rear end styling.
In 2008, we'll get a 3.5 with 250-260HP. But why am I waiting? Why is Lincoln so eager to come to a gunfight with a Crayola?
Alright, you have a sorry motor, that's not a unpardonable crime. Do you have a step up? Somewhere to say "Hey, if you want more, stay here, don't RUN to Acura or Infiniti or Lexus."
How do you sell this car against the Germans OR Japanese?
I'd like the Big 3 to just do some thinking. Look before they leap into another 5 years of mediocrity.
But then again, people in Hell want Ice Water.....
You know that I used to be a very loyal Domestic car buyer. I even owned stock in Chrysler and Ford. Lets just say that both Stocks and Cars from Domestic car companies have done nothing but waist my money. The real question is how much more good money American Consumers are supposed to send after Bad money? If any body who works for Ford or GM can tell me why I should invest more of my hard earned money in GM or Ford I would like to know.
For now there will be no more GM or Ford cars in my future. Why? Because I was let down by GM and Ford many times. I was sold cars that were not ready for prime time. To me it sounds like 'Live from New York its Saturday Night' Its the Not ready for prime time comics.
Its the same thing with GM now. Look all you read is how GM will introduce the new SUV's and trucks 6 months before they were due. Well what if they introduce these trucks before all of the testing is done? What happens if GM management just said: "Hey we are loosing money. We want those trucks no matter what. If any Customer is stupid enough to buy our trucks thats his problem." Well what is a stupid customer to do who believed GM that they were finished developing their trucks. You don't think that this can happed to you!!!
Well I purchased a POS Ford Expedition that Ford still cannot figure out how to make reliable. If Ford introduced a 2003 Expedition before all of the bugs were worked out why do you think GM will be any different. GM is loosing Billions of dollars now. You really think that GM cares about customer satisfation right now. I don't think so.
What GM wants is for you Stupid American' consumer to buy their new 'underdeveloped' trucks and SUVs. I was burned with a new 2003 Ford Expedition when it was introduced. I just want to make sure that people who are thinking of buying a new 2006 GM SUV think carefully about quality before they buy them. I was burned once. I just hope it does not happen to you. I beg you wait one year for all of the problems to be worked out. Why risk it, just wait one year, and if there are no recalls then by all means buy the trucks. In the mean time check out the used car section of your local news paper. I think that you will find plenty of one year old trucks and SUVs for sale. Think how smart you will look driving a trouble free SUV on which you saved $10,000's of Dollars. Yes that is how much you will save by buying a one year old GM SUV. The prices on OLD SUV's will drop like a brick when new ones are introduced. Just wait a month and buy the old style used one. You don't know how much you will save..... Happy Shopping, and remember don't buy a new GM SUV until all of the problem were worked out.
The 2003 and some 2004 CTS's had the Opel 3.2 liter V6. The 3.6 that the CTS now has was new for the 2004 model year and was only available with the automatic transmission. The Opel engine was a DOHC engine, but used rubber belts to drive the cams.
I am 60 years old and have developed a loyalty to Honda cars. Our last 6 cars have been either Hondas or Acuras and we have been very pleased with them. I doubt I we will ever buy a vehicle from another manufacturer.
I bet a lot of us older people feel the same way. Our neighbors always buy Toyotas, except the time their daughter bought a Honda.
If the American car companies want to increase sales, they better strart appealling to the younger buyers before they develop loyalty to foreign cars like we have done.
I am in your age bracket, but I have always been quite happy with the Buicks that I have owned. However, the last Buick I had was a 95 Riviera which was a nice car, but the interior was not a luxurious as I expected in what should have been an upscale vehicle. I presently have a 2002 Seville Luxury sedan (SLS), which has a nice interior, but perhaps it falls a bit short of the mark considering that the car was equipped with a "Premium Luxury Package".
I think that the Toyota Avalon is a very nice car for the money and the Honda Acura's are perhaps fairly good. I think that people like you, who have been satisfied with Honda's, will make it very difficult for the domestic automobile companies to keep their current sales volume from decreasing. I think that GM has some appealling cars for the younger buyer in the Pontiac Solstice.
Well the CTS base model could have the 2.8 or 3.2 Opel engine in it for $27K, or better yet dump it for the 3.6 as a standard engine and sell the car under $30K, with a V8 for $35K. Personally, I would prefer the return of the smoother inline 6 engines. BMW outsells Mercedes and they have the inline 6 in their cars. A Cadillac is suppose to be a to of the line car. What car review within the last five years has the Cadillac won when tested against BMW, Mercedes, Infinity, Acura and Lexus? The CTS is a good car priced as a great car.
There are some US cars which seem closer to reality price wise. The Mustang is not bad at under $20K for the V6 and under $25 for the V8, though they are sneaking that price up. Sure, it is a better car than before ( based on reviews, and not personal experience ), but I have seem them all the way up to $30K, which is ridiculous. Just a couple years back the V6 could be had new around $15K and the v8 around $21K on sale.
My parents are in the same age group, and like you, they have developed a loyalty to foreign make, in their case, Toyotas/Lexus.
They've been burnt before, mostly by Fords and Dodges. Once they tried a Toyota, they've never switched to any other make. They are driving a Lexus now, which is 6th Toyota for them.
I can't even convince them to give Hondas/Acuras a testdrive!
Unfortunately, people like my parents are a lost cause for the domestics. Nothing will convince them to switch back.
"Well the CTS base model could have the 2.8 or 3.2 Opel engine in it for $27K, or better yet dump it for the 3.6 as a standard engine and sell the car under $30K, with a V8 for $35K. Personally, I would prefer the return of the smoother inline 6 engines. BMW outsells Mercedes and they have the inline 6 in their cars. A Cadillac is suppose to be a to of the line car. What car review within the last five years has the Cadillac won when tested against BMW, Mercedes, Infinity, Acura and Lexus? The CTS is a good car priced as a great car."
Well the CTs is selling well so you can;t arge with success but I agree with you on the engine combonations. Its one of GM"s lone brightspots. GM's bright spots are Chevy, GMC, and Caddy. Pontiac and Buick need some work.
"There are some US cars which seem closer to reality price wise. The Mustang is not bad at under $20K for the V6 and under $25 for the V8, though they are sneaking that price up. Sure, it is a better car than before ( based on reviews, and not personal experience ), but I have seem them all the way up to $30K, which is ridiculous. Just a couple years back the V6 could be had new around $15K and the v8 around $21K on sale."
Well the Mustang is a great selling car so thats probably why the price has gone up. As ridculous is it may sound som people would probably dish out 30K for a Mustang because there is nothing like the Mustang on the market. I mean the closest thing to the Mustang would be the Pontiac GTO which is not selling well. The old Camaro and Firebirds competed well with the Mustang but sales of the Firebird and Camaro's declined so much in the 90's that GM axed the Camro and Firebird in the early 00's(02-03 somwhere around there.)
Comments
1. The country of ownership is who benefits the most in any transaction. (The reason why the more Toyotas, Hondas and Kias we buy, the more broke our nation becomes)
2. The final assembly of a car and the dealer profit is a mere fraction of the total cost. (Most of the money goes out of the country faster than a Toyota Sequoia goes through a tank of premium fuel)
3. Foreign corporations pay almost zero corporate taxes on the profits they make in the US. (See "broke" above)
Man, this discussion is really flogging a dead horse, but here goes. Talk about xenophobia (and I include that simpleton Lou Dobbs in this group - is he still chasing those Mexican car-washers?). This is not the type of thinking that made America a great business-oriented, wealthy country.
Think about all those little widgets that go on a car. In most cases they are locally sourced, as is the labor for the final assembly plant. They provide jobs for local people, who pay taxes. Even if the firm takes the profits back to their home country, those companies are typically publically held - often by Americans with diversified stock portfolios or mutual funds. So big deal: Honda takes its $2K profit from an Ohio-built Accord and sends it to Japan. Americans who wisely invested in Honda get a dividend, a capital gain, or both.
Inward navel-gazing is very dangerous. So, you want to kick transplants out of the states? Why don't you ask the guys in Ohio or Kentucky building Toyos and Hons if they agree? Ask the states with the plants. I would wager that the biggest GDP contributor to both Ohio and Kentucky are those plants (Ohio Jeep plants probably also in the running). Furthermore, ask the Boeing employees who are going to build the 70 737s China is buying or the Boeing jets Singapore is buying - all worth billions to US compaines and US workers. Simply put: you put up a fence and don't buy their products and they will put up a fence and not buy yours. Trade with them and they will trade with you. This is what made America a great country (I am not American). Think big. Design and build desirable products at a good price and the world will beat a path to your door. It requires good management, excellent engineering, hard-working laborers, and straight-jacketed bean-counters. This is how business evolves and benefits consumers.
I don't speak for most drivers and have never claimed to do so. I merely gave him examples of cars that I find vastly superior to american makes and what it would take for an american make to earn my business again.
What you provided is an excuse. That's what we get from the big 3 when we point to tangible things. We ask for a manual in a sport sedan, the big 3 say "Nobody buys manuals." We ask for a smooth V6 with lots of power, the big 3 respond that would require premium fuel. We ask for composed, sturdy ride 100 mph, the big 3 answer "But the speed limit is 65." We ask for cars that feel sturdy and refined and the big 3 whine that high cost of labor and unions keep them from making cars with high quality materials.
Those excuses are the reason this person defected long ago. I'll drive a Zephyr but considering the car is stuck with an automatic it better be one mindblowing vehicle.
For example, do you yourself drive such cars? Or, perhaps you are the promoter only? As you mentioned the Nascar about a dozen times, all over the post.
In my neck of the woods the Nascar is steady left turn drivers only may apply...
Otherwise, what do you drive, and are you in Germany ( refer to #1311 ) much or at all?
You see, here in America all those cars you mentioned can't be driven on our interstate highways legally above the posted sign speeds of 65 mph in about 80 or 90 percent of the country, and of 75 mph in the rest of it.
As we have here the most unbecoming and tortuous American authorities in charge, fully against all driving enthusiasts and an entire 138,000 square mile sized country on the Western European Continent that is chuck full of well over 60M of them besides.
These so called authorities are the most freakish and sadistical masked as of the living, but nonetheless who are like formaldehyde preserved calvinists or like left over prohibitionists, but what causes such intractability still running our entire country's highway system.
We still can't get them out of positions of dominance over, and so denying of, every driver's full potential
Lets assume that:
1. Some people had problems with domestic cars.
2. Some people never had problems with domestic cars.
3. Average quality as measured by JD Powers for domestics is almost the same as for Japanese.
So what can explain this type of data. Well process variance can explain all of this. Japanese spent a fortune to tune their processes to minimize variations in the process. The domestics have not. This is due to many reasons like lack of money and old factories with old equipment. This means that most of Japanese cars are produced identical, while domestic cars are nearly the same.
If there are 100 problems per 100 cars with Japanese cars, that means that most cars had 1 problem each. Sure maybe some had no problems (lets say 5 cars) and some had 2 problems (also 5 cars), but the vast majority had 1 problem. Domestic manufacturers with their old factories and old style platforms have more variation in their production. This means that some cars are the same, but some are better and some are worst. If domestic cars have 100 problems per 100 cars, it can also means that 50 cars had no problems, 20 cars had 1 problem, 20 cars had 2 problems per car, 5 cars had 3 problems per car and 5 cars had 5 cars per car. This spread in number of problems per car is called variance. JD Powers does not measure the variance, they only measure the average.
This would explain why some people here like domestic cars because they were lucky and purchased the good ones with no problems. It also explains why some people here complain about domestic cars, because they purchased the bad cars with many problems per car.
Now how does this effect the market share. If you drive any car you expect to have 1 problem with it. That is the average so you would expect that you purchased an average car. So if your car had no problems or one problem during its lifetime, you would be happy. But if the car would have two or more problems during its life time, you would not be happy. This is because now you are below average. Most people don't like to be below average especially when it costs them money like car repair bills.
Now lets say that if you are happy with your car, chances are that you will buy another car from the same company. IF you are not happy with the car, you will purchase a car from the competitor. Even though the average quality is the same for Japanese and domestics, the Japanese will end up gaining market share. Why? Because they have fewer unhappy customers. In my example there were lets say 5 unhappy customers who will switch from Japanese to Domestics, but there will be 30 unhappy domestic owners who will switch from domestics to Japanese. This means that over one car life cycle Japanese will gain 30 new customers and loose 5 old customers. That means that Japanese will end up gaining market share by having 25 more customers then before.
I think that this long explanation fits the data fairly well. It explains why some people here defend domestic cars and why some people hate domestic cars. Most importantly it explains the fact that domestic car companies are loosing market share with cars of the same quality as Japanese. The market share loss is a fact that nobody can argue with.
Its the difference between Actual Quality and Average Quality. You one number like average does not explain everything.
I totally dig the Saturn Sky! Probably the best looking car I've ever seen from a US company!
The mags, all of them, say the Solstice is SLIGHTLY behind the Miata for value and overall sports car enthusiasm. So the same should go for Sky, as it's main change is better styling.
I wouldn't buy the Miata because it is smaller that the Solstice (I am well over 6' tall), and it's styling.....see comments on Zephyr.
But a well-equipped copy under $25k is a sweet ride (Sky)!!
As I was driving home tonight, one more reason why I generally hate American cars. It is the obvious cost cutting.
If they are cutting corners on things I'd notice quickly (styling, dash materials, seats, sound dampening, engine refinement, safety features), imagine what they are doing with the nuts and bolts I can't see! :mad:
"Planned Obsolescence", an American tradition (Revolution?).
DrFill
I think you don't know what serious driving enjoyment is. I have done some serious driving enjoyment that would destroy your wonderbar machine within a mile. It is driving that only a truck can do and can be much more enjoyable (and skillful) than driving a wonderbar machine on the street.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
they would have to be very big sedans and SUV's or real small people riding in them. Otherwise they will be a joke like the 7 passenger US SUV's are.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
With downsizing, even though many cars still kept generous interior dimensions, other things started happening. For example, tranny and driveshaft humps often grew. Even if the passenger cabin on a downsized car was larger than on its mastodon counterpart, the wheelbase was still stubbier, which ensured the engine would sit further back. As a result, a larger portion of the transmission would encroach upon the passenger cabin, making for a larger hump. Also, things like wheel wells and dashboards started cutting more into passenger room. And those split front seats, while they're great if the driver and passenger are of vastly differing heights, end up turning the center seating position into an inhospitable wasteland.
The advent of the backseat armrest, as well as pass-throughs and folding rear seats, have also rendered the center seating position in back almost useless in many cars...regardless of whether the car is FWD or RWD.
Consumer Reports once said that you need at least 57 inches of shoulder room for decent 3-across seating. There are actually plenty of cars these days that have 57" and more, but once you factor in split bench seats, center armrests, intrusions from the dashboard, wheel wells, curvature of the side windows, etc, there are precious few of those cars that fit the bill.
Even the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, which looks like it would be best able to fit the bill, isn't a very good 6-passenger car. The tranny hump up front is huge, and worse, the dash juts out, leaving very little room in that spot. I used to have an '89 Gran Fury, which only had around 56" of shoulder room (I think the CV/GM have around 61") but the Gran Fury actually had a better center spot! Mainly because the dash was high and sloped out of the way, the tranny hump was fairly small, and it had a solid bench seat.
In back, you don't have much foot room under the front seat for rear seat passengers, and you still have a huge driveshaft hump to contend with. And worse, the back seat is actually contoured to seat two in comfort. Put a third person in there and it pushed the two outer people so far outboard their bodies don't line up with the contouring anymore, and with the curvature of the side windows, the outer passenger then have to lean inward.
Making a 6-passenger car would be meaningless, because while that type of car hasn't been around for ages, there's just not much demand for it anymore. However, what the Japanese have done, increasingly successfully, is make a comfortable 4-passenger car. Throughout the 70's and most of the 80's, Japanese cars didn't make good family cars. They were good for single people or couples, or small families with small children, but by and large for a family situation, they were mainly second cars, and not a primary car. However, they got bigger while the domestics got smaller, and ultimately the distinction blurred.
As for the 8-passenger SUV, at least the "true" 8-passenger SUV, I consider that to be just as much of a myth as the "true" 6-passenger sedan! Just because it has 8 seatbelts doesn't mean you want to squeeze 8 adults into one for any length of time.
But then again, I'd imagine most people get 8 passengers into an SUV about as often as they get 5 or 6 into a sedan.
andre 1969: Your statement that 6-passenger American cars are obsolete baffles me. What about the Lincoln Towncar and Zephyr, the Mercury Marquis, the Buick LeSabre and Century, the Chrysler 300, the Chevy Impala, etc. etc.?
It's not any of the (union) workers who assemble what is inferior by fumbled management inputs and design VS especially the big 3 Nippon's products, and by sales figures besides.
Top brass management either "figures" out what sells continually so well and in our country or they don't.
"Detroit" continues to show and since before the nippon big 3 made and sold their 1st car in the USA unbelievable dumb dumb & dumber responses. They really don't see or can't understand well the car intelligence, the cosmopoliton sophistication of the majoity of Americans besides.
And word of mouth reputation is apparently beyond the heads they use for comprehending what is attractive about, for example the high revving smoothness and even some growling above 5500rpm and that reliability nippon Honda Motor Company engines are famous for.
Wher'd the "build cars like this and they'll come" begin?
In the 1940s Detroit tried to discredit, and throughout the industrial world, the American philosopher, scientist and teacher W. Edwards Deming. He 1st saw and made a record of management warring on guess who?...
In 1950 Toyota invited him to their Japan car making factory and embraced studied and adopted entirely his quality build concept and application known as the total quality management processes.
To reduce it all into a few words here: Detroit believes that PR together with marketing campaigns will (somehow) succeed. VS the competition of the "Nippons" (and a few others from Continental Europe) who copy or design and engineer leading or better and better quality motor vehicles 1st, then sell a hell of a lot more of them since.
Loren
Variance is related to quality control. Some times people will call variance Sigma. The famous 6-sigma quality control methods invented by Motorola and copied by the rest of the world uses variance to predict the number of failures in your production. Any two parts that are made by man will not be identical. Any parameter that you can think of measuring will vary from part to part. This can be physical dimensions like weight, length, thickness. This can also be physical property like yield strength. There are many reasons for variation from one part to the next, but lets just say that the closer you want your parts to be to IDEAL part the more money it costs. By IDEAL I mean that all measurements of a part are the same as nominal values.
Remember in the old days there were such things as Blue Printed Engine. Well what does it mean? It simply means that the engine was hand built and parts were selected by hand to match the specifications on the blue print. (A blue print is a mechanical drawing.) The regular engine coming from production line did not make as much power as a blue printed engine. This is because not all pistons had the same weight, and not all cam profiles were exactly the same. Now remember both the production engine and the blue printed engine passed the quality control department, its just that the blue printed engine made more power and would last longer. It was just a better engine.
Lets say you make pistons for a living. The tolerance for a piston is lets say 300 grams +- 5 grams. This means that a piston that weights 305 grams will pass quality control and one that weights 295 grams will pass quality control. Now you invested some money and purchased a new piston making machine. Now you can make all of your pistons 300 grams +-1gram. Lets call the 300 +-5 grams pistons OLD and 300 +-1 gram pistons NEW.
When you build an engine you select 4 pistons at random from the batch. It makes sense that an engine built from new pistons will run smother then old pistons. Sure some of the engines made from old pistons will also run smooth because you were lucky to get all pistons with nearly the same weight, but there will also be some engines which will never run smooth and fail early because you got pistons with different weights. Engines made from new pistons will all run smooth because all of the pistons happen to be nearly the same weight. You can also build a good engine from old pistons if you simply select pistons that have the same weight and install them in the engine. But this requires an extra step which costs money.
What I am saying is that Japanese because of investment in automation and having newer factories are able to produce parts which have closer tolerances then Domestic companies. Take a look at the body gaps of domestic cars and Japanese cars. You will notice that the doors and trunk of Japanese cars have smaller gaps and the gaps are more even. This is something that is easy to see, but you can be sure that if a company cares to make the door gaps even will also invest the money and make things that you cannot see even and straight and have the same weight. Drive a Honda or Toyota car and drive a Chevy Malibu and you will feel the difference.
After WWII rebuilding the Japanese economy took alot of work and subsequently Japanese innovation and management practices were built on American ingenuity and management theories of how best to accomplish rebuilding the country.
Unfortunately those who prophesized the need for change in American Managerial practices were seen more as quacks than as visionaries in keeping America Manufacturing an ingenuity competitive in the global markets.
To better understand Japanese innovation and its strong hold on the global economy, one need not look futher than to an industry that started the ball rolling in pushing the Japenese ahead to the head of the class of all global manufactures: Electronics: Most of the major brands of consumer electronics that we build come from which manufactures: Japanese. After consumer electronics the next global industry to be toppled became transportation:
When the American were still buiding muscle car and gas guzzling V8 (think the 70's America gas crisis) the Japanese were visionaries in their thoughts that more important than oppulence and glutton people would eventually come to realize that the most important fators in transportation were reliability and efficiency (safety didn't become a benchmark until probably around the late 70's early 80's).
What does any of this have to do with American cars competing in the global markets?
1) When Americans are able to exorcise themselve away from their need for excessiveness, oppulence, and glutton, then and only then will we be able to replace the tumors of poor managerial practices with standard of competitive that is accepted domestically and globally.
2) Zen culture suggests that more important than the goal is the process that leads to the goal. Competition is only as significant as its ability to truly challenge the scope of your own inner vision and not the goals or objectives of your alleged adversaries.
3) The American Automobile industry has to better understand how build cars that are visionary and not responsive and reactionary. Being a visionary doesn't necessarily mean that you have to recreate wheel. Sometimes knowing how the make it spin quicker doesn't require adding 2 additional cyclinders to the engine configuration.
4) American Management culture needs to better understand how organizational culture plays a pivotal role in our attitudes towards the global maket economy. Global Leadership is not about dominating. Rather its about partnering, learning, and most importantly having the humility to ask for help when needed. Until we instill this culture into American Managerial Practices we will continue to play the game of "catch-up" in the faced paced industry of automobile design and manufacturing.
Thanks for reading my comments as I hope that I have not offended or upset any one in my views on an industry I both enjoy researching and discussing with others.
Cheers,
Michael
As a Japanese Car Fan the quality is the same but the product is not. I have an Acura CL and there aren't one domestic mdel at the time that had the interior quality that the CL did at the price. See thats the problem the Dmoestic Car Companies Rep's keep on say are reliability is the same as the Japanese. I already know that. The Domestic's need to do the little things better to get my sale next time around.
BTW, I love the new Hyundai Sonata in black color but the interior plastics I didn't like it. If Hyundai improved the interior than the can have my sale in a couple years. To me Hyundai saved all the good interior plastics for the upcoming TG luxury car. So for now I'll look elsewhere.
I am 26 years old but I buy cars that can fullfill my needs for a 1-2 hour trip somewhere. I'm not a young person that wants a sports car because those kind of cars get tireing on a long drive.
The TL has plenty of buzz just look at the sales of it at its price point. The Maxima I'll agree its not an attractive looking car.
Yes I am a NASCAR Fan and I do drive Import makes that were made in America though.
Yeah but the Domestics's still don't have an answer for the Japanese in the mid-size car segment. They don't have a Camry, Accord, or Altima fighter sales numbers wise. I'll agree with you on the East Coast urban youth about Caddy and Chrysler though.
"ToyoHonda have been able to design dull cars for years because they had the reputation for quality and people were willing to accept their boring boxes on wheels."
UM, boring boxes on wheels well Toyota and Honda sold bread and butter models like the Accord's and Civics for years while Toyota sold Camry and Corolla's for the majority of their sales. Toyota and Honda had a good following with the Celica and Prelude but sales fizzled of those 2 cars as the 90's wore on with a diminishing coupe market. While the Civic for Honda and camry for the Toyota aren't lookers for the most part they are just bread and butter. I mean the Domestic's had their bread and butter models for years like Beretta and Monte Carlo for GM and the Escort and Tarus for Ford. If you want looks go buy a Mazda 3, Mazda 6 or a Nissan Altima. Toyota is a mass market car company. They just don't sell any cars on looks.
BTw, its strange that Honda always criticized for being bland. The 92-95 Civic and 94-97 Accord still look great after 10 plus years on the road from a looks stand point. From a Honda standpoint the 03 Accord I thought was too bland looking and still is for their core buyer audience.
Finally I'll agree there are more options than Honda and Toyo since I like Mazda but Mazda just doesn't get the respect that Honda does.
"In the future, it will take more than that to stand out because sooner or later smart, open minded consumers will figure out that everyone is making quality vehicles so there are options out there beyond ToyoHonda."
I agree it will take more stand out with the car buying public and thats why Honda has begun to take more styling chances with the new Civic Coupe and 04 TL so they can counter rivals like Mazda and Nissan on the exterior looks point of things. Toyota said they will focus more on styling from now on but in my opinion seeing the new Camry I think they have more work to do on the exterior styling end of things.
Hey it was the opposite in the 80's when Honda wasn;t the good guy and wasn't being taken very seriously. I don't get why people support GM so much. Their products are just not there in most cases. I'll give Ford a shot at least they know its about the product now. Gm still thinks ruunning blue light specials is the way to go and its not the way to go in my opinion.
I will back Ford on the Expedtion but I won't. Where I will back them is that the 03 Expedition was a first year model. Usually with first year models those are the most troublesome because of kinks that have to be worked on a new bodystyle of that particular car or truck. However I won't back Ford is that they never completely fixed these problems with the 03 Expedition because in Consumer Reports the 03 Expedition still gets a below average reliability or much below average reliability rating for the 04 and 05 model year. 05 models surveyed by CR however have a total of 3,000 miles on them at the time of CR's last issue.
What are the Sebring/Stratus replacements supposed to be called? Does Chrysler have a name in mind for what they are going to call their new mid-size cars? I personally like the late 90's Sebrings because of the way they looked.
What about my time waisted to fix these problems. What about the value of my money lost because 2003 Expeditions have bad reputation and people don't want to buy them. The resale values of Expeditions are horrible. What about loosing a very loyal Ford customer by selling him a product that was not finished. You know its not my job to debug a Ford product. There are people working for Ford like test engineers whose job is to find and fix problems with the car before its released to the public. That is their job. My job is to enjoy a car that I paid good money to purchase.
You can sense that I am a little disappointed with my Expedition. But you see there is a good reason for this. I don't like being taken advantage off. I feel that Ford sold me a product that was not ready for public consumption. If Ford said, "Try this new prototype. Its almost ready, but we still have a few problems with it to iron out. Here are the keys and drive it for a while and let us know if there are any problems." Well that would be different. But NO, they sold me a car ready for public consumption. How do I get even with a company that has such blatant disregard for customer satisfaction? I will never again do business with a company that treats its customers like that. Its really too bad because I was a very loyal Ford customer. The problem is that I don't even like Japanese cars all that much. It just that Ford with 2003 Expedition and GM with 1988 Olds Cutlass have forced me not to do business with these companies ever again.
I know its Chrismass and we should all forgive and forget. Merry Christmas everybody and a Happy New Year.
Here is a key point that most domestic makers and a lot of posters here miss. The vast majority of dollars spent on midsized cars are not spent willingly.
By that I mean there is no enthusiasm about the back and forth to work car. It's a tool like a hammer. It moves the kids to school and the parents to a job. Driving is a chore and an inconvenience for the largest part of the US market. Therefore there is no enthusiam for the car buying process or the vehicles themselves. Do you get excited about going to Sears to buy a hammer?
But when you do get that hammer you dont want it to break the first time you use it either. There is little or no enthusiasm for buying a new vehicle but there is less in having to repair it or spend time taking it in for warranty work. That's truly wasted time. What the Japanese have given the US market are 4 basic cars ( Camry, Accord, Corolla and Civic ) that are as well made as their luxury siblings. In fact the vehicles are often the same except for interiors and the powerplants.
Essentially the $15-19K buyer is getting a commuter/family vehicle with the same reliability as a Lexus/Acura.
If GM wants to compete in this segment it needs to take a Caddy and put a world class 4c into it and sell it for $19000, one price no discounts.
Take a CTS, put in a 160 hp world class I4, cloth seats, all the airbags and nothing else. Let Cadillac design it, build it and let Chevy sell it. Put Cadillac quality into a basic Chevy. The word would get out soon enough that you can get a Caddy for under $20K.
Well they have the Cobalt for that but the trouble is the Cobalt hasn't had glaring reviews. The car is getting a rep for being an also-ran in its class. Before anybody says its an American Car and nobody will consider a Cobalt well the Focus sold well when it first came out but the recalls killed it. Again its about the product. They have the Impala so that should do alright for them in the 20K range.
Another problem with bread and butter cars especially from GM is they have had so many cars with so many names it gets the customer confused: 6000, Beretta, Lumina, Corsica, bring back the Impala and Malibu, Skyhawk, Skylark, Regal, Century, LacCrosse. Lucrene, Phoenix. Where as Honda and Toyota have only had the Civic, Accord, Camry, and Corolla names. Even Nissan has had the Maxima, and Sentra for years although the Stanza name was switched to the Altima in 92-93.
Mazda does not suck. The 6 even though its not selling well was rated up there with the Accord in some of the mags for its handling. It just doesn't have the interior room that the Accord and Altima have so thats why its not selling. The 3 has been a great success for Mazda. This is not the mid 90's anymore where Mazda was almost of the Us market.
Ford is guilty of the same thing. Fusion, Milan, Zephyr, what do all these names mean and stand for? Montego, that got to be the worst name in use today!
Chrysler does a much better job, taking emotive names from the past: 300C, Charger, Magnum, Challenger, Imperial. Of course they're also putting out characterful cars. MT says Chrysler is undecided about building independent suspension Challenger because its price can't come in as low as live axle Mustang. I'd say go ahead and build it. Price is important, but not the end all and be all. If it is, it's just another step toward Walmartization, and you won't ever earn decent profits.
"You are buying a big motor strapped to a Cavalier... "
That is one of the silliest statements I have seen in this thread. The CTS and the Cavalier have nothing in common. They dont even drive the same set of wheels.
Again, just to be clear (because you are obviously misinformed), the G6 convertable is a hard top convertible that will cost about $30K. The only other car that may offer something similar in this price range is the new Volvo, but even that is likely to cost thousands more.
Solara =cheap soft top
G6= Sophisticated hard top like that found on expensive luxury roadsters.
Honda/Nissan dont even offer convertibles in this segment.
See my point now?
"Solstice = Miata, an idea that is 15 years old now "
You are right, unfortunately the Solstic/Sky have topped the miata's styling on their first try. The Miata has been around for 15 years and it's styling reflects that. In the Solstice's second year on the marker it will have an engine more powerful (260 hp turbo) than any ever offered by Mazda. Seems Pontiac is learning fast.
"I know for my money the CTS is garbage. I've driven it hard and it's not a composed or decent car. "
Wrong, i've driven it and you are wrong. This statement doesn't jive with my personal experinces or any of the reviews I have read. The car has been criticized for it's interior and rightly so. Interior weaknesses have nothing to do with it's handling or high speed composure. cars developed at Nurbugring typically are not going to be sloppy handlers and in case you didn't know the base CTS is more softly sprung than the Sport Package model so maybe you drove the wrong car. How many Lexus, Infiniti or Acura models are developed over there? Not many. In your opinion the Z06 is a piece of junk (you will be hardpressed to get support on that notion) so that pretty much shows your opinions aren't credible.
"i prefer the materials and layout of Mazdas and Nissans over the american makes."
Shocking revelation there. Again, this opinion isnt shared by most of the media or most objective observers. Even die hard import lovers arent silly enough to act like Nissan makes quality interiors. Look at the Titan and the F150 which were released in the same year. The Titan is barely superior to the 6 year old Silverado, while the F150 looks like a luxury truck in upper level trims. And I'm not even a Ford fan.
"Power alone is not good enough. Maybe you're missing the concept of an entire package"
Have you driven or read anything about the cars I mentioned? Apparently not. The Impala/GXp offer 303hp with virtually no torque steer and offer decent ride and handling. they are not competing with the 3 series, they are supposed to be fast, comfortable family sedans with decent handling. They accomplish that. The cobalt and CTS-V offer near class leasing handling, great acceleration and braking in a refined matter. I never said they had nothing but power. STS, XLR and GTO offer nice power and handling and the GTO has been widely praised for it's quality interior.
"A 300c has a funky gangster look some people like and a big engine. Unfortunately the driver must sit in that atrocious interior and put up with 4000 lbs of detroit's poor engineering. I've driven the car, man! Its got a gas guzzler tax!"
It doesn't have a gas guzzler tax, that is 100% incorrect. What are some of the examples of the 300s poor engineering? I dont even like the 300, but it represents a great value for the money and unliek Japaese cars it stands out. I dont see how the interior on the 300 is any worse than the plastic-fest G35, Maxima or the C320. The only car it that price range that clearly blows it away is the TL. I've driven the car as well man! It was very quiet (too quiet) and all the controls were well laid out. It could use more wood and metal to spice up the interior, but the buld quality and refinement were appropriate for the price.
"I can go on and on. It's rare that I find a car with good ergonomics. '
Sounds like a personal problem. When I am talking about ergomics I am talking about logical placement of controls, gauges and displays. In that regard, most non German cars have good ergonomics in 2005. I can't think off too many domestic cars that don't have simple control layouts, large easy to read gauges and handy convenience features. Ergomics are getting worse, but that's mainly due to the fact that the Europeans and Japanese are trying to force owners to control simple vehicle functions through interface systems (Idrive, MMI) and nav systems. Most GM products with nav do not link the HVAC/stereo controls through the screen but foreign cars love to do this for some reason.
"Again, perception."
My perception is that you really don't know much about anything not coming from Japan or Europe. Your points begin and end with the notion that in your opinion all "domestic" cars are unworthy of purchase and you arent going to let any facts get in the way of that. In my opinion, most Toyota's are dull automotive appliances that represent some of the worst designs on the road. In my opinion, Nissans are all ugly (except G35 coupe) and have worst in class plastic interiors. In my opinion, the ineriors of the new class of BMWs look like cockpits and are exceedlingly unattractive and cold. That said, I wouldnt call those automakers "garbage" or call their products "junk" nor would I suggest that people are stupid for buying them. The fact that I dont like a car doesnt make the car bad.
Grand prix 260HP V6
Impala has 242hp V6
G6 has 240hp V6 (with manual tranny)
Lacrosse has 240hp V6
Aura will have 250hp V6
Chrysler cars have 250hp V6
Ford has a 245hp V6 coming out in 2006.
CTS/STS offer 255hp V6
For "sturdy" interiors see Zephyr, Lacrosse, Lucerne, GTO, Impala, Sky, Navigator, F150, Torrent, Escape/Mariner, new Gm SUVs, '06 Vue, Cobalt, Milan, '06 Explorer, XLR, etc. Those cars must have missed the memo about unions preventing the installation of nice interiors. I do excuses here, but they aren't coming from the unions.
Owning a Solara convertible I do not agree it has a cheap top. It has a fabric 3 layer top with insulation, it is quiter than most cars. Toyota quality is why I considered this over any Euro or domestic. The Lexus SC430 was my only other choice and for $65K you probably will not find a better hardtop convertible. It Toyota made the Solara as a hardtop convertible it would not be priced in the low 30's, probably be a $40K car. Rumor .... Lexus may take the Solara base model and just do this conversion, expect it to be mid to upper 40's and it will sell very well. The style of the Solara looks more Lexus than Toyota so they do not need to change too much. And Toyota keeps a reasonable priced drop top in the Solara.
Just my opinion.
Good posting 1487!
Merry Christmas
Would also love to see Lincoln redesign the Towncar to resemble the circa 64 Continental I saw while watching Goldfinger.
The problem is those cars you just listed with the exception of the Impala, Fusion, and Charger is all the other cars you listed are enthusiast models and they are not base model level cars. The Fusion is based on the Mazda 6 platform.
"I dont even like the 300, but it represents a great value for the money and unliek Japaese cars it stands out. I dont see how the interior on the 300 is any worse than the plastic-fest G35, Maxima or the C320. The only car it that price range that clearly blows it away is the TL. I've driven the car as well man! It was very quiet (too quiet) and all the controls were well laid out. It could use more wood and metal to spice up the interior, but the buld quality and refinement were appropriate for the price."
I agree with you 100% on the 300 I don't like it either but Chrysler hit a sweet-spot in the market with this car. Like you I don't see how the 300's interior is any worse than the G35. The 300 actually has a better interior than the G35. The G35 is in the same boat as the CTS good sales numbers but interior quality is off on both cars.
"The only car it that price range that clearly blows it away is the TL. I've driven the car as well man! It was very quiet (too quiet) and all the controls were well laid out."
How can a car be too quiet? I don;t think people want to hear road noise when they are driving. I'm with you on the TL about the interior and things too.
"Shocking revelation there. Again, this opinion isnt shared by most of the media or most objective observers. Even die hard import lovers arent silly enough to act like Nissan makes quality interiors. Look at the Titan and the F150 which were released in the same year. The Titan is barely superior to the 6 year old Silverado, while the F150 looks like a luxury truck in upper level trims. And I'm not even a Ford fan."
I'm with you there the F-150's interior is better than the Titans.
"In my opinion, Nissans are all ugly (except G35 coupe) and have worst in class plastic interiors."
On Nissan interiors the M45 has a good interior while the Altima's interior has been improved. The Sentra has a good interior too. I'll agree with you the Pathfinder, G35, Murano have bad interiors. The 350Z's interior has been improved I heard. Nisan;s exteriors either you are going to love them or be indifferent. Chrysler and Caddy either have cars stylistically that you are going to love or hate as well. Hey Nissan has been the hottet automaker since 2002. I wouldn't buy a Nissan but you can;t argue because their products of late since Carl Ghson came on board are among the hottest products in the automotive world right now.
"In my opinion, the ineriors of the new class of BMWs look like cockpits and are exceedlingly unattractive and cold."
I've seen the interior in the latest 5 Series and I wasn't impressed with it from what I had seen but BMW sells alot of cars though.
ridiculous? i own a car that has all of that right now and I can always settle on an e90 to get it again.
In your OPINION (key word) every domestic car is unrefined, cheap, noisy, gas guzzling, ugly, poorly engineered, etc. I dont think those opinions can be supported by the sales charts or by recent magazine reviews.
I've made it crystal clear ALL of this is about opinions. The mags, they offer only opinions. That's all.
"Wrong, i've driven [CTS] and you are wrong. This statement doesn't jive with my personal experinces or any of the reviews I have read.
rofl...YOU may feel differently, but I'm not wrong. Wrong means you can quantify a subjective feeling. The car is not well engineered or even a decent handling vehicle in my estimation.
cars developed at Nurbugring typically are not going to be sloppy handlers and in case you didn't know the base CTS is more softly sprung than the Sport Package model so maybe you drove the wrong car.
No, I drove the top package sport (non CTS-V) and it was lousy. you can't say how I felt about the car wasn't so, that's like telling someone unagi tastes better than ebi. It's personal taste.
How many Lexus, Infiniti or Acura models are developed over there? Not many.
Save for the G35 and NSX, I can't name an Acura/Infiniti/Lexus that handles up to my standards either.
Shocking revelation there. Again, this opinion isnt shared by most of the media or most objective observers.
Stop with the media. Edmunds, C&D, RT, etc are just people with opinions. Their opinions hold no more weight than your own. If you must rely upon others to determine what is and isn't good in your view, then i feel sorry for you.
It doesn't have a gas guzzler tax, that is 100% incorrect.
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/chrysler_300_csrt8_2006/16962/style_options.html
$2,100 gas guzzler tax. As for the rest of it, knock on the plastics of the 300c, it's loud. The car's an automatic, the seating is poor, gauges are bad, dash is too large, etc. I need to breakdown everything?
When I am talking about ergomics I am talking about logical placement of controls, gauges and displays. In that regard, most non German cars have good ergonomics in 2005.
I think German cars have the best ergonomics. But I think we're approaching this from a different way. I want controls to fall to hand instantly. The wheel must telescop and tilt for the car to have a shot at having good ergonomics. Lacking just that negates the chance for controls to be considered good.
In my opinion, most Toyota's are dull automotive appliances that represent some of the worst designs on the road.
Agreed.
In my opinion, Nissans are all ugly (except G35 coupe) and have worst in class plastic interiors.
Agree with exteriors but I don't decide if i like a car based on its appearance. It's in the driver's seat where a sale is won or lost. Their plastics aren't exemplary but their interiors are well laid out.
In my opinion, the ineriors of the new class of BMWs look like cockpits and are exceedlingly unattractive and cold.
That's what i want. I don't want wood or soft tones or anything that reminds me of luxo barges like MB S class cars or Caddies. The colder, the more driver oriented, the more the entire car is focused on the driver, the better.
Repeatedly, you bring up cars and mention one or two positive attributes. I'm approaching the car world from a holistic point of view...what's the entire package:
I look at an Accord and I see a nice combination that no american company can approach for 27k. for instance, the 06 Accord V6 EX comes with:
6 speed manual
Great interior - smooth, supple, everything falls to hand
Pretty good driving dynamics
An ultra smooth but reponsive V6
A quiet, composed ride at 100 mph
30 mpg on the freeway
Great resale
Room 4 four for a quick road trip.
Weight under 3500 lbs
Is there an American sedan that can touch all of that? No.
The 300c, Milan, Fusion, Impala, etc fail on the first element. Moving on, they lose on so many others, from mileage to weight to the responsive smooth engine.
Move up to entry lux and I immediately think of my e46 330i. but I'll use the e90 with sport package:
6 speed manual
Responsive, insanely smooth inline v6
30+ mpg freeway mileage
Canyon carving handling
Supple, quiet ride at any speed
100+ the car is rock solid
120+ the car is rock solid
130+ the car is rock solid
Good resale
Nigh perfect ergonomics (though they did move the stupid window switches to the left...argh)
Perfect roadfeel transmitted to the steering
Seats 4
RWD
Decent trunk
Under 3500 lbs
Comfort access (keyless entry and engine starting)
Price tag with comfort access, sport, leather = 41k. European Delivery price = 35.5k.
Free maintenance for 4 years
From an overview and experience with the competition there's no way in hades any American car comes close to the above attributes for that kinda price. Heck, the choices are slim at the CTS (poor mileage, thrashy engine, bad interior, poor handling) and 300c (automatic tranny, poor engine, poor handling, extremely heavy, poor interior).
So your list didn't touch resale. It also missed that almost all the cars you listed were either automatics (G6, CTS excepted) or too heavy to meet the requirements (gm seems to be hiding the weight of the G6 GTP but the 3.5 version weighs 3420 lbs).
The G6 GTP gets 18/29 mileage and somehow GM can only manage 240 hp out of a 3.9 L engine?! My god, the germans and japanese get more out of 3.0 (255 hp) and 3.5 (307) liter engines. What is wrong with american engineering?!
Have you driven a G6 GTP at over 100 mph? How was it? I've only driven the GT V6 version with the automatic. What's the resale on the G6...
I'm still waiting for American alternatives to the Accord V6 and the 330i in their respective classes. The CTS you mentioned is over my weight limit and it's massive engine gets lousy gas mileage. As you know I've driven the car (nightmarish experience) and in that class, the chassis can't hold a candle in terms of roadfeel or handling to the e46/e90, IS350, C350 or G35.
So let me know when you drum up some American options. The G6 could be one. I've got a few days off and it's not like Pontiac is busy, so I'll stop in and take one for a spin...
As for the G6 sedans, they look average, as in nothing outstanding, yet nothing that would take a sale of an Accord away from my list, if I was considering the two. I would not trust the electric assist steering, and you have to get the GTP to get the old fashion, better feel, steering assist on a G6. The GTP is just another FWD car, but with more HP, and a supercharged engine. I would think a Civic Si may be a better choice in a fun coupe. Yeah, I know it is suppose to compete with the likes of the Cobalt SS, but that won't be much of a contest.
Best bet for Ford and GM is to sell what Japan and Germany do not have. The Mustang is doing well. The Fusion, as a Mazda6 based car, may be some pretty fair competition in its class, which directly competes with the Accord and Camry. One problem is that the Mazda6 has never won over enough customers from the big two of Japan. The Impala is not a bad car to compete with Accord and Camry, in that it fits a group of buyers which want something a little larger in size, plenty of room for four people and luggage, always on sale, and has less expensive repair parts. Not exactly Accord or Camry in other ways, but it gets the job done. Considering resale value, I would not think of getting a new one. Too expensive. Once again, Japan has no CTS or 300 car, which I think are good examples of doing an end around attack on Japan sales. CTS should have a inline 6 and more HP in the base model, IMHO.
Loren
I agree with you the Impala is not a bad car to throw at Honda and Toyota and the exterior looks of the 2006 Impala have improved greatly since the 00-05 Impala.
BTW, I wish the 04 Malibu looked a whole lot better on the outside than it does. I know GM has done a re-working on the nose of the 06 Malibu but the 04-05 models actually look worse than an 03 Accord or an 02 Camry in my opinion. I actually like the current Malibu interior. Its not exactly a Honda Accord interior but I think it looks better than the interior thats in the Camry(but not the Camry Solara)or the 02-04 Nissan Altima's.
"Once again, Japan has no CTS or 300 car, which I think are
good examples of doing an end around attack on Japan sales. CTS should have a inline 6 and more HP in the base model, IMHO."
The TL goes up against the CTS. I agree about the 300. I mean the 300 goes up against Accord and Camry's V-6's but at the high end 30K + comes with a v8 engine and people will pay 30K plus for a Chrysler 300. At the 30K+ range the Acura TL and BMW 3 Series comes with a V-6 where as the 300 offers the V-8.
Well didn't the CTS when it first came out start at 29K-30K price range? I they added the 2.8 liter V6 rated at 210 HP for 05 as the base model engine. So the CTs when it first came out I think it came with a standard 3.6 liter V6 rated at 255 hp which is still offered but at probably at like 35K. The interior has been noted alot in the past week about the CTS on this particular thread.
I think its good that import car companies build their cars here because it provides jobs for the American Worker. I mean if I were to buy a Acura, Lexus, or Infinti that was made in Japan it might be kind of hard for me to buy one. I used to not care where a car was made but my Dad kind of talked to me about keeping jobs in the US and yes he happens to be a "buy American" person. The only way I would buy a car that was somewhere else is if it was a Mazda that was made in Japan since Ford owns 34% of Mazda I would think Ford gets some of the money off a car that Mazda built in Japan.
Whats everybody's opinion on import cars that are built in Canada? Does it really help the Us economy if an import car is built in Canada since the both the Us and Canada are a continent of North America.
Also, on Us companies building cars in Mexico well the money does go to the workers in Mexico but I would think most of the money made on a sale of a Ford car that is made in Mexico goes back to Ford headquarters.
Caddy comes to market with a 210HP engine, fighting with 330i (225HP) to G35 (280HP). And a cheezy interior.
So here comes Lincoln, with a nice 6AT, that's good, but with 221HP and an interior no better than Ford 500. And a stupid, tacked on grille, with a horrific rear end styling.
In 2008, we'll get a 3.5 with 250-260HP. But why am I waiting? Why is Lincoln so eager to come to a gunfight with a Crayola?
Alright, you have a sorry motor, that's not a unpardonable crime. Do you have a step up? Somewhere to say "Hey, if you want more, stay here, don't RUN to Acura or Infiniti or Lexus."
How do you sell this car against the Germans OR Japanese?
I'd like the Big 3 to just do some thinking. Look before they leap into another 5 years of mediocrity.
But then again, people in Hell want Ice Water.....
DrFill
For now there will be no more GM or Ford cars in my future. Why? Because I was let down by GM and Ford many times. I was sold cars that were not ready for prime time. To me it sounds like 'Live from New York its Saturday Night' Its the Not ready for prime time comics.
Its the same thing with GM now. Look all you read is how GM will introduce the new SUV's and trucks 6 months before they were due. Well what if they introduce these trucks before all of the testing is done? What happens if GM management just said: "Hey we are loosing money. We want those trucks no matter what. If any Customer is stupid enough to buy our trucks thats his problem." Well what is a stupid customer to do who believed GM that they were finished developing their trucks. You don't think that this can happed to you!!!
Well I purchased a POS Ford Expedition that Ford still cannot figure out how to make reliable. If Ford introduced a 2003 Expedition before all of the bugs were worked out why do you think GM will be any different. GM is loosing Billions of dollars now. You really think that GM cares about customer satisfation right now. I don't think so.
What GM wants is for you Stupid American' consumer to buy their new 'underdeveloped' trucks and SUVs. I was burned with a new 2003 Ford Expedition when it was introduced. I just want to make sure that people who are thinking of buying a new 2006 GM SUV think carefully about quality before they buy them. I was burned once. I just hope it does not happen to you. I beg you wait one year for all of the problems to be worked out. Why risk it, just wait one year, and if there are no recalls then by all means buy the trucks. In the mean time check out the used car section of your local news paper. I think that you will find plenty of one year old trucks and SUVs for sale. Think how smart you will look driving a trouble free SUV on which you saved $10,000's of Dollars. Yes that is how much you will save by buying a one year old GM SUV. The prices on OLD SUV's will drop like a brick when new ones are introduced. Just wait a month and buy the old style used one. You don't know how much you will save..... Happy Shopping, and remember don't buy a new GM SUV until all of the problem were worked out.
I bet a lot of us older people feel the same way. Our neighbors always buy Toyotas, except the time their daughter bought a Honda.
If the American car companies want to increase sales, they better strart appealling to the younger buyers before they develop loyalty to foreign cars like we have done.
I think that the Toyota Avalon is a very nice car for the money and the Honda Acura's are perhaps fairly good. I think that people like you, who have been satisfied with Honda's, will make it very difficult for the domestic automobile companies to keep their current sales volume from decreasing. I think that GM has some appealling cars for the younger buyer in the Pontiac Solstice.
There are some US cars which seem closer to reality price wise. The Mustang is not bad at under $20K for the V6 and under $25 for the V8, though they are sneaking that price up. Sure, it is a better car than before ( based on reviews, and not personal experience ), but I have seem them all the way up to $30K, which is ridiculous. Just a couple years back the V6 could be had new around $15K and the v8 around $21K on sale.
Loren
They've been burnt before, mostly by Fords and Dodges. Once they tried a Toyota, they've never switched to any other make. They are driving a Lexus now, which is 6th Toyota for them.
I can't even convince them to give Hondas/Acuras a testdrive!
Unfortunately, people like my parents are a lost cause for the domestics. Nothing will convince them to switch back.
Well the CTs is selling well so you can;t arge with success but I agree with you on the engine combonations. Its one of GM"s lone brightspots. GM's bright spots are Chevy, GMC, and Caddy. Pontiac and Buick need some work.
"There are some US cars which seem closer to reality price
wise. The Mustang is not bad at under $20K for the V6 and under $25 for the V8, though they are sneaking that price up. Sure, it is a better car than before ( based on reviews, and not personal experience ), but I have seem them all the way up to $30K, which is ridiculous. Just a couple years back the V6 could be had new around $15K and the v8 around $21K on sale."
Well the Mustang is a great selling car so thats probably why the price has gone up. As ridculous is it may sound som people would probably dish out 30K for a Mustang because there is nothing like the Mustang on the market. I mean the closest thing to the Mustang would be the Pontiac GTO which is not selling well. The old Camaro and Firebirds competed well with the Mustang but sales of the Firebird and Camaro's declined so much in the 90's that GM axed the Camro and Firebird in the early 00's(02-03 somwhere around there.)