I THINK you have to look at which country the company is head quartered. Which country the profits of their sales benefit the most. In that sense I think I can safely assume GM & Ford as American. As far as DC goes, I have no clue. Are they German now?
I THINK you have to look at which country the company is head quartered. Which country the profits of their sales benefit the most. In that sense I think I can safely assume GM & Ford as American. As far as DC goes, I have no clue. Are they German now?
In today's world it doesnt matter. The money goes to the shareholders of that publically traded company. Toyota is a US company since they are traded on the NYSE as 'TM' and I own their stock. I sold the Ford/GM shares a few yrs ago in order to buy TM and Dell.
If you or your 401k own Honda or DC then they are US companies also for you.
It's easy to blame GM woes on the imports, UAW, etc. But what about the litany of strategic mistakes its management has made. They're enough to sink a lot of companies.
Saab: they paid for a company that they don't have a clue of what to do with now.
Fiat: they essentially paid $1B to negate a deal they made with Fiat. What did they get out of it?
Subaru: oh, they got to sell about 100 9-2X. They sold Subaru's shares to Toyota, at a loss of course. Nobody doubted Toyota will make a roaring success of Subaru.
incentives: remember GM invented the incentives game. Turned out the game turned around and bit GM back. An average incentives for a GM car is $3.8K. Let's say GM sold about 6M each year. That's almost $20B, almost double Toyota's yearly profit.
Remember the late 90's were the salad days for GM and Ford, where they earned record profits. I still remember when the two of them talked about taking over MB, BMW and Honda. Who do you think is responsible most for such a steep decline? Management!
It is so difficult to win back customers once you have lost them. IMHO now its's more perception than real issues of quality, features and design differences. You can find some very nice domestic models, but they aren't quite the image builders as some of the Euro's or Japanees cars. In terms of resale, American cars suffer from over supply, particularly in rental and fleet service. I think Caddys' are the best deal in cars on the resale lots. You can get a Deville 2000-2003 in the 20K-25K range that is big, powerful, failry miserly -18-20mpg(City) 22-25mpg(Highway), safe, and they handle better than Camry's and Accords. Dodge & Chrysler seem to have the ticket, now maybe GM and Ford will get some more hits to get them back in the game.
An average incentives for a GM car is $3.8K. Let's say GM sold about 6M each year. That's almost $20B, almost double Toyota's yearly profit.
It's not quite that bad. GM only sold about 4.6 million vehicles last year, and will probably be not much above 4 million this year. GM hasn't seen 6 million a year since 1984-86, and hasn't cracked 5 million since 1994. Toyota and Honda basically doubled their sales in the last ten years.
I have been following this string for some time now, and feel compelled to chime in.
Want answers? Here are the facts:
American product is from is from any company that is American Owned Foreign product is from any company that is Foreign Owned
This is regardless of where it is assembled!
What exactly does this mean? When you purchase any product, it is the people that reside in the place of ownership of the company that reap the most economic benefit from the money changing hands.
So, for example: A Toyota assembled in the US is a Japanese car A Dodge made in the US is a German car A Ford made in Mexico is an American car A Chevy made Canada is an American car Now, what you really didn’t know A Nissan made anywhere is a French car! That is correct, by Japanese law Nissan is controlled by French Renault
Real Economics: It is actually better for America, if you by a Volvo (Ford) made in Europe, than if you by a Honda assembled in the US. The purchase of the Volvo results in more money being recycled back into the US economy in the form of salaries and taxes than the US assembled Honda. The final assembly of a vehicle actually represents a very small percent of the value.
Why is this important? Because we here in America are all economically connected. Ever wonder why our government has to borrow money from China and Japan to fight the war on terror? Wonder why or government has to borrow money from China to aid its own people during a national disaster? Because foreign corporations are grabbing more and more market share here in the US, and our tax base is shrinking. This is because corporations pay federal taxes back to the country of ownership, rather than the country that they are operating in. So, while Toyota makes 5 billion in profits here in the US, the taxes they pay go back to Japan. So, when you choose that 4Runner over an Explorer, you are sending $30K back to Japan for them to recycle into their economy. That same $30K spent on an American product would recycle through our economy x5 and generate about $30K in federal, state and local taxes. Now, if you are school teacher or fireman, or government worker, this should concern you. Any person, that has a salary is paid by taxes, which chooses to buy a foreign product, is actually cutting their own lifeline.
According to the people who have studied this, the spending hierarchy that benefits our economy is as follows; 1. American Owned, American Made 2. American Owned, Foreign Made 3. Foreign Owned, American Made 4. Foreign Owned, Foreign Made*
There you have it. I personally have never owned a foreign car, and I have never owned a car that was not reliable. In fact, my American car (truck actually) is far more reliable than every other product and service that I purchase. It is certainly more reliable than my computer and software. More reliable than my Bank, satellite TV Service, Cell Phone Service, Doctor, Investment Advisor, Real Estate Agent, Favorite Sport Team, Source of News, and any Government Agency that I have ever dealt with. Folks who criticize American cars might think about cleaning their own shop, before being so judgmental. Think about your job would your customers stay loyal to you? Suppose they had a choice of a foreign product or service that was subsidized by their government so that the competitor could offer a little more than you do at the same price, would your customers stay loyal?
"It is actually better for America, if you by a Volvo (Ford) made in Europe, than if you by a Honda assembled in the US. The purchase of the Volvo results in more money being recycled back into the US economy in the form of salaries and taxes than the US assembled Honda. The final assembly of a vehicle actually represents a very small percent of the value."
I have trouble getting that through my head.
A lot of the platform engineering in say, the Volvo S40 happened in Japan. Some overhead to Japan there. Manufacturing salaries and jobs: Europe. Salaries and jobs to suppliers: probably Western and Eastern Europe. The cost of developing and building a car is a very high percentage of the car's price - all but a couple thousand dollars. That goes to Japan and Europe. Maybe $2000 is profit, and that goes to the US. Half of it into the pockets of upper managers, who invest it where it's hot - foreign markets.
And if the US government fears anything, it's a massive divestment by foreign investors. It's too late; we need them. Maybe if we stopped running a defecit like we do...
==
But how I look at it is different. If GM and Ford were any other sort of company, they'd be dead. And no one would mourn them. Companies that make poor decisions for two or three decades straight die. Even companies that make good decisions sometimes die. It's really kind of weird for companies to survive on buyers' sentiments alone.
From what I can tell the west coast is extremely style conscious and anti Detroit. I don't know why it's hard to understand that California may not be representative of the rest of the US as a whole. If the rest of the country was like CA the Big 3 would have 20% market share instead of 55-60%. I do not doubt for one second that highly educated upper income left coast yuppies wouldn't be caught dead in anything thought to be "american" but I don't see how that proves anything. If Ford sold the Ford GT for $40K I don't think people in CA would buy it because it's not German or Japanese. YOu can usually tell how biased and uninformed someone is by the statements they make and I presume that most people you are around would say things like 'Caddies are crap, their for old people and I would be caught dead in one unless it was at Enterprise". That sounds good but any student of the automotive industry knows Caddy has progressed tremendously and is taking on Germany in way even Lexus hasn't attempted in it;s 1 years in existence. In the minds of a import loving social climber Lexus is king, but in the minds of driving (or design) enthusiasts Cadillac gets more respect than Lexus (or Acura, Volvo or Audi) and that means something. Personally, I prefer to focus on reasonable consumers who go into the car buying process with an open mind. Saying people on the west coast hate imports doesnt prove they are superior any more than hearing a Red Sox fan's opinion of the Yankess proves they are the worst team in baseball.
I didn't mean to suggest that people in a lower class part of the country think that a cheap 300C is high end exotic lxury sedan. I was just saying at that price point, in 2005 a 300C is likely to get more looks and more "buzz" than a Maxima or TL. I'm sure people in your neck of the woods don't even know what the 300C looks like, but based on it's sales thus far I would say other areas of the country like the car a lot. People of all races and types are seen driving vehicles like the CTS, STS, 300C, Escalade, Yukon Denali, Charger, Pacifica, H3, SRX, etc. in these parts, it's not just "recently poor" people who take cues from rap videos.
Personally, I turn my head when I see a 911 Turbo, S600, SL600, S4, S8, Phantom, Ferrari, Continental GT, Gallardo, etc. Those are high end cars to me and I do see them, but not as often as you do I'm sure. According to you people in San Diego aren't impressed by any MBs (not even SL65, SL600, CL65, CLS55) or BMW (M3, M5, 645, 760) or Audi (RS6, S8, S4).........all I can say is people out there must have more money than I ever thought if nothing short of a Bugatti gets a nod. Either that or they don't recognize fine machinery when they see it.
Bottom line is that you have to do more than appeal to the predictable suburban middle class to attract tomorrow's buyers. Toyota and Honda are successful today because they convinced tens of millions of people that there cars were cooler than the lame domestic boats their parents drove. I see a slow shift in tastes right now amongst east coast urban and suburban youths that bodes well for the american carmakers if they can keep turning out cars with distinctive styling. ToyoHonda have been able to design dull cars for years because they had the reputation for quality and people were willing to accept their boring boxes on wheels. In the future, it will take more than that to stand out because sooner or later smart, open minded consumers will figure out that everyone is making quality vehicles so there are options out there beyond ToyoHonda.
Well... it's such a recent development that buying an American car doesn't mean settling for less.
The day American cars became as good wasn't going to be the day they got their market share back. There has to be a big difference between cars for some people to switch allegiance to a brand. In the last decades, there has been a big difference, so people switched over to Toyota and Honda. If the cars are equal now, then converts might trickle one way or the other. But to get 60+ percent of the market, the Big 3 would have to create a gap just like the one that lost them their market share.
With trucks there has been a big gap, so the Big 3 have sold a lot of trucks and SUVs to Camry and Accord owners.
On a separate issue, I think urban buyers have more experience with environmental blight, so they're more likely to buy into Toyota and Honda's "green" message. Not that Toyota's is true, but if you're buying a Corolla you are getting a pretty green car. Honda's green reputation is as real as a carmaker can have.
There's more PR goodness for Toyota and Honda. They came here humbly, with humble cars and a strong work ethic. The Goliaths that they've defeated were big, ungainly, arrogant, and uncaring, so the public wasn't on their side. Our love of the nice-guy underdog throwing a revolution was stronger than corporate patriotism. I think that's a cultural trait we have, and Toyota and Honda played the role perfectly.
When you purchase any product, it is the people that reside in the place of ownership of the company that reap the most economic benefit from the money changing hands.
I dunno if it's that simple. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and even Hyundai have large operations here, and are at least expanding their employment base. Compare that to Ford and GM, who are shrinking and/or shipping manufacturing jobs overseas to low cost countries.
And I doubt that 100% of the money goes straight back to their respect home countries and simply remain there. A lot of $$ comes right back to US in form of product research and more expansion and jobs: look at the gigantic truck plant Toyota is building in Texas.
It's easy to blame GM woes on the imports, UAW, etc. But what about the litany of strategic mistakes its management has made. They're enough to sink a lot of companies.
Last time I checked, neither GM nor Ford has any profits to tax. But I understand what you are saying.
At the same time, if I spend 30K on a Toyota built and sold in the US, not all $30k is going to Japan, in fact, quite a bit stays here.
The dealer makes a profit. An american truck driver and/or an american railway most likely was paid to ship it. Not to mention wages were paid to the employees of the Toyota mfg plant here in the US. All of those employees pay taxes as does the person buying the car, many states charge personal property tax on the vehicle as well.
Last I checked Toyota buys parts from Delphi and other US auto suppliers as well. Sure I would prefer to see US based companies do well. But to say every penny spent on a foreign car goes out of the US is simply not true.
I have been following this string for some time now, and feel compelled to chime in...... ...followed by long inaccurate economic ramble...
In the ramble above it was stated that ..
Real Economics: It is actually better for America, if you by a Volvo (Ford) made in Europe, than if you by a Honda assembled in the US. The purchase of the Volvo results in more money being recycled back into the US economy in the form of salaries and taxes than the US assembled Honda. The final assembly of a vehicle actually represents a very small percent of the value.
This statement is so utterly wrong it's laughable.
A) OK let's go with the stated example and say that you might want to purchase a Volvo ( made in Europe ) which...results in more money being recycled back into the US economy in the form of salaries and taxes than the US assembled Honda..
So according this poster after paying all the costs of the steel made in Sweden and aluminum made in Sweden and leather and parts and accessories and overhead in Sweden and white collar salaries in Sweden and govt taxes in Sweden and blue collar wages in Sweden, etc etc etc the resulting Net Profit After Taxes is more than the money spent assembling say a $30000 Honda minivan here. Lets look rationally at this statement.
According to the poster then a $30000 Volvo generates more profit back to Ford USA than what it costs Honda to build its minivan. So the profit on this Volvo is greater than the cost of the steel made in the US and aluminum made in the US and leather and parts and accessories and overhead in the US and white collar salaries in the US and govt taxes in the US and blue collar wages in the US???? What does it cost to build a $30000 Odessey here? $20000 ?? Probably way too low. But let's use it. According the poster the money brought back to the US on a Volvo after all the costs in Sweden is MORE than $20000?
Come on be serious. Silly statements prove nothing. How much profit do you think there is on a Volvo??? $20000??
Here is the real economic picture. Net Profit After Taxes in Sweden ( which are beneficial only in Sweden btw ) is maybe several thousand $US but any good owner will recycle that money back into the plant and equipment in Sweden and bring a very small amount back home as a HQ Exp ( Dearborn ) and Dividend to the shareholders ( you and me and Otto and Guy and Yomura-san no matter where we are located).
Second nonsensical statement: This is because corporations pay federal taxes back to the country of ownership, rather than the country that they are operating in.
If a company is registered in KY or DE or NY it is a US company subject to Federal, State and Local Tax the same as any other company.
Actually it's worse for us when Ford has a plant in Sweden because it has to pay taxes on it's profits in Sweden and the IRS gives taxpayers ( Ford, you and me ) a credit for the taxes paid in other countries. In other words the taxes on profits that should be kept here are instead kept in Sweden since the IRS gives Ford a credit on the taxes paid there. It helps the Swedish economy not ours.
Edmonds, btw, gives a pretty positive review for the Zephyr, base price around $29k fully loaded at around $35k. First, the new Mustang, now the Zephyr ... could Ford be making a turn-around?
Zephyr, btw, was one of the American rentals I was impressed with.
I'd just get the Fusion for $18K to $20K. Why pay $30 to $35K for a car based on a Mazda6 chassis. Not a bad little car, but in no way worth the money. Zephyr is not going to sell. Why not buy a Chrysler 300, CTS, or a Honda Accord Coupe, for that matter. Heck for under $30k, you could have a Mustang GT with extras - if ya like bling. The Subaru Legacy would be a better bargain. To each his own.
As for people in California not being too impressed with the domestic cars, it seems to me they just reacted differently to being sold crap since say 1973. They tried Japan and German makes, were impressed by ride, handling and durability and never returned. We drive a lot here. Some drive fast; some drive faster. Cars with style and performance, like Mustangs always sold well. A fair number of Cadillacs are sold here. A car like a CTS is not bad, but I am not seeing it somehow as to the value of the car vs. say the Chrysler 300 with a 250HP V6. The base model CTS costs more. A mid-range CTS is more costly than the 300C hemi - go figure. What review has been won in comparison tests between Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, BMW, Mercedes and others in the upper class. Have they won? As for SUVs, if you've seen one, you have seen them all. The Escalade looks like a Chevy SUV with bling-bling. The Cobalt is not going to impress the youth market when compared to the Civic Si, now is it? Over the years, it has become apparent that Ford and GM has had a problem with attention deficit disorder, as the customer kept telling them they were not impressed with their product. Lots of talk about style. Take a look at the Accord coupe compared to the G6 Coupe -- cleaner lines, now aren't they. Solstice, Mustang and Chrysler new products are selling in California. It is not impossible for the bid three to sell cars in California - just has to be best product.
There's a lot of money paid out to suppliers. The American brand companies tend to buy more from American suppliers than the foreign branded companies have been. Someone posted articles to that effect. At the same time the foreign brands have been starting up their own suppliers here so the amount of purchasing that appears to come from American suppliers will seem to increase.
Games are played with costs by buying from related companies where the profit really goes back to the foreign-owned company in the end or goes to off-shore companies and weaves its way back.
The money can be moed around in payments for goods to companies related, owned, whatever. Offshore ownerships of some of t hose companies is a problem when trying to track the real amount of profit made when money moves to companies offshore. The Enquirer had an article about the Ohio legislature looking into companies with gross transactions in millions paying less than $50 in Ohio taxes. Offshore ownership and captive suppliers were mentioned. I could never get a listing of the actual companies involved; note that Honda has auto manufacturing, motorcyle, and engine manufacturing (transmissions, too?) in Ohio. So they were one of the first I could expect to be included.
In today's world it doesn't matter. The money goes to the shareholders of that publically traded company. Toyota is a US company since they are traded on the NYSE as 'TM' and I own their stock.
If you are a stock holder in a company it makes a big difference where the company is registered. For instance I used to own shares in Chrysler and then they were taken over by Daimler to became Daimler-Chrysler. So I received some shares in DC. Their head quarters are in Germany and its a German company.
Why does it matter to me?
Because the dividends that are paid out by Daimler-Chrysler are taxed in Germany. The German government takes their tax on the dividend and then what is left is given to you as a shareholder. This creates two problems for American shareholders. One is the pain in the [non-permissible content removed] of dealing with foreign income taxes when you file 1040 forms. Since you already paid a tax on the dividend you are not taxed twice by US government, but all of the paperwork involved made me sell the stock. The other thing is that the German government benefits from the tax, not American government.
Now its the same thing when foreigners own shares in American companies. Don't worry, the US government makes sure and tax their dividends right here.
I don't know why it's hard to understand that California may not be representative of the rest of the US as a whole.
We buy more cars than any other state. Shrug. The styles, the fads, the mods come from here.
If Ford sold the Ford GT for $40K I don't think people in CA would buy it because it's not German or Japanese.
I wouldn't buy it because it's cramped, ugly, not very useful, not efficient, not luxurious and still too expensive for a Ford. Maybe for 20k I'd at least take a test drive. Though I'd never buy it.
Caddy has progressed tremendously and is taking on Germany in way even Lexus hasn't attempted in it;s 1 years in existence. In the minds of a import loving social climber Lexus is king, but in the minds of driving (or design) enthusiasts Cadillac gets more respect than Lexus
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Driving enthusiasts have never embraced Lexus. And caddy's offerings are a good 2 generations behind European sport sedans. I loved after my test drive of a CTS the salesguy asked how I liked it. I told him its handling was too soft and sloppy to compare to the 3, G35 and even the lackluster A4/Class. His rejoinder, "This is a caddy." What the hell?! The car was supposed to be a challenger to germans. It's not even a challenger to the A4.
People of all races and types are seen driving vehicles like the CTS, STS, 300C, Escalade, Yukon Denali, Charger, Pacifica, H3, SRX, etc. in these parts, it's not just "recently poor" people who take cues from rap videos.
I merely expressed a perception. I did not call it fact. Caddy is perceived by many to be a lesser make. Rich old guys/gangsters and car salesmen with some dough.
According to you people in San Diego aren't impressed by any MBs (not even SL65, SL600, CL65, CLS55) or BMW (M3, M5, 645, 760) or Audi (RS6, S8, S4).........
Come on over, check it out. In so cal in general - san diego, carlsbad, san clemente, the OC, LA you're not gonna get a lick of attention in an Audi anything or a Mercedes of any kind. If someone notices an M3 in San Diego...they must be new to the area. Seriously M3s are so common one begins to wonder how BMW can consider it a unique car. On bimmer forums people made a logical jump that because they didn't many e90 3 series on the road, the car must be selling poorly. So I began to count e90s; I'd see 4-5 of them each way during my commute a few months ago. Now I see that many in the building's parking garage alone.
all I can say is people out there must have more money than I ever thought if nothing short of a Bugatti gets a nod. Either that or they don't recognize fine machinery when they see it.
You go to SD's big mall, Fashion Valley and you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a late model car that stickered for over 75k.
Toyota and Honda are successful today because they convinced tens of millions of people that there cars were cooler than the lame domestic boats their parents drove.
It wasn't coolness. It was features. It was value. It was perception of quality. Look at how Toyota launched the LS400 and Infiniti launched the G35. That's exactly how to steal from the market leaders. Look at Hyundai's ascent. In 10 years I will not be shocked to see a luxury line from Hyundai that will repeat the same model Toyota once used (and forgot) with the Lexus.
because sooner or later smart, open minded consumers will figure out that everyone is making quality vehicles so there are options out there beyond ToyoHonda.
Quality is about perception. The perception still remains that GM/Ford/Mopar are not quality cars - power, ride, interior materials, ergonomicas, etc.
"This statement is so utterly wrong it's laughable"
kdhspyder, if you are going to mock me, then you must quote sources for your information.
I knew my post would set off a barrage of reply’s calling me crazy, but it is all true. Americans really need to know what is happening behind the scenes.
If you really think that all is well, and the US can remain an economic and military superpower with all of our manufacturing jobs supplied by foreign owned companies, then you are just fooling yourself. The fact that America is really broke, approaching a 60% debt to GDP ratio, with a government that cannot afford to help its own people in a crisis speaks for itself. Disprove that with seat of the pants math formulas, and inaccurate numbers that you made up. You can rationalize all you want, but study the facts, the politics, and the screwball economics that make up the system before telling me I don't know what I am talking about!
I hold firm to the three main points of my post: 1. The country of ownership is who benefits the most in any transaction. (The reason why the more Toyotas, Hondas and Kias we buy, the more broke our nation becomes) 2. The final assembly of a car and the dealer profit is a mere fraction of the total cost. (Most of the money goes out of the country faster than a Toyota Sequoia goes through a tank of premium fuel) 3. Foreign corporations pay almost zero corporate taxes on the profits they make in the US. (See "broke" above)
Now, Toyota is the good guy, because they are building plant in Texas- Here is another fact to get you fired up:
1. Toyota building cars and trucks in the US actually nets less jobs, than if they built them in Japan and imported them.
" it is estimated that by the mid-1990's at least 500,000 American jobs had been eliminated because of foreign owned automobile manufacturers operating in the US..."*
*Simmermaker, Roger How Americans can buy American second edition pp 18
All foreign auto manufacturers in the US combined total less than 100,000 workers, so for every job they create, we loose about four.
Oh, by the way kdhspyder, Volvos are typically assembled in Belgium, not Sweden. Recommend you study up before trashing someone!
Edmonds, btw, gives a pretty positive review for the Zephyr, base price around $29k fully loaded at around $35k. First, the new Mustang, now the Zephyr ... could Ford be making a turn-around?
Turn around? No. Another fast depreciating flop? Yes!
For 35k one can easily get a loaded G35 that's RWD, far more powerful, more reliable (Mazda6 isn't so hot for reliability), comes with a far better warranty and comes with stellar resale.
Acura TL loaded is also around 35k and it obliterates the Zephyr in all respects.
Said it before, Lincoln needed to price the loaded model at 30k and price it against the smaller, less impressive TSX. They'd move more product. It's current pricing sets the lincoln up for the now-redundant rebates (thus killing resale).
I wrote Ideals and I met Ideals. You mocking suggesting that they don't have ideals makes you biased. Accept it or not.
Before that you also wrote and I quote: "FWIW auto makers have always tested and proven new ideals on the race track."
The definition of IDEAL: "An ideal is a principle or value that one actively pursues as a goal."
One does not test IDEALS, you either have them or you don't. You have principles, you have values. Do you test values, do you test principles. Ideals are princeples by which companies live. I would guess that for most companies their IDEALS would be to earn profits.
You most certainly don't test IDEALS on the race track. What you do on a race track is test new IDEAS. Like an IDEA of a new engine or better driver protection. These things are IDEAS and not IDEALS.
Nice post, but you sound too much like a homer in the end. The US hasn't caught up yet. Blip here, blip there, but on a whole, still playing the background, except in full-size trucks. And Caddy's Return of The 3-Box style "language" neo-Retro.
As a matter of fact, if I can conjure up the repressed memories, the Cimmoron and CTS share a distant sense of "style", if you like the poetry of GM's novel 3-box design "language"
(Little chance of someone showing a photo comparison of the two, as most Cimmorons disolved in the rain! :P )
Carlisimo/Post #1289
Nice post!
AG11/Post #1291
I can only beat that drum so often. But it is a nice, big drum, that.....sounds so right when you hit it just so! :P
because sooner or later smart, open minded consumers will figure out that everyone is making quality vehicles so there are options out there beyond ToyoHonda.
I have been hearing about improved domestic quality since 1980. For the last 25 years all that I remember is Detroit telling consumers that we don't build those crap cars anymore, and that our quality NOW is just as good as the Japanese.
You know what people are just plain and simple tired of the same old BS from Detroit. I personnely had 2 lemon domestic cars in last 15 years. The last one was made in 2003. You look at problems people have with Ford Expeditions made in 2003 model year. You look at people having problems with 6.0L Powerstroke Ford Diesels. You look at the people having problems with GM V8 piston slap. To get American car companies to fix anything, you have to sue them.
Look at the recent law suit against Ford for Plastic Manifolds on their 4.6L engines. Ford refused to fix this problem until they were taken to court. Here is the link.
When I had a rattle in the back of my 2003 Ford Expedition, the dealer told me that they all do that and there is nothing that they can do. So don't tell me the quality is the same. I have experienced Detroit quality on my own skin, and I don't want to do it again. And yes now I also drive a Honda. I love it. I purchased a 2005 Honda Odessey. Its been great. It drives nice and my wife loves it. Yes I can tell a difference in quality.
I am just sick and tired of having people on this forum tell that quality of domestic cars is the same as imports like Honda and Toyota and BMW.
As far as there being nice cars in San Diego, I agree. There are many nice cars there. Its because when you spend $1,000,000 for a small two bedroom town home whats another $100,000 for a nice car. Its like somebody who lives in Michigan and spends $10,000 on a car. Most things in California are more expensive, but not cars. They cost the same as the rest of America. This means that relative to other things in California cars are cheap. I think that is one of the reasons that people drive nice cars.
Because with that philosophy you will be unable to buy American for much longer, Ford and GM will go the same way as MG Rover before long. I did hire a Mustang convertible a year or so back when I was last in California, I was very disappointed by the finish, and that I had to replace the car for another one inside 2600 miles as it was vibrating and rattling, and the windows did not close properly. Worse still, the interior was all hard cheap cream plastic. Sadly the second one was no better! But I still loved it, shame none of you drive 'stick shifts' probably only 5% of cars sold here are auto's . Bottom line is until you people invest in your own domestic car industry you will not be able to compete with the competition. French cars suck, all of them cheaply made, awful styling but, they are succeeding due to the fact 97% of french people, buy French cars. And due to this, their engine and chassis development will secure they will continue long into the future. once you lose the home crowd, your doomed!
I hold firm to the three main points of my post: 1. The country of ownership is who benefits the most in any transaction. (The reason why the more Toyotas, Hondas and Kias we buy, the more broke our nation becomes) 2. The final assembly of a car and the dealer profit is a mere fraction of the total cost. (Most of the money goes out of the country faster than a Toyota Sequoia goes through a tank of premium fuel) 3. Foreign corporations pay almost zero corporate taxes on the profits they make in the US. (See "broke" above)
I'll address your #1 and #2 together:
You make no differentiation between imported vehicles like the 4Runner and US-built vehicles like the Odessey. You can hold to your position if you like but the basis for it is false so it begs the question "Is there any validity to the argument?'
Yes imported vehicles mainly benefit the originating country. No question.
You stated however initially that Ford benefits the US more by selling a Volvo here than Honda benefits the US by building and distributing an Odessey here. That is just false. Ford may repatriate a few thousand dollars of profit here after paying all its costs in Europe. This profit is taxed ( when they make an annual profit ) and then distributed to the shareholders ( a relatively narrow group ). If they do not make an annual profit then there is no tax paid it just helps cancel losses from other operations. In any event it's a small number.. $3000 possibly??
Honda OTOH has to pay US Steel, J&L Stainless, it's own workers, the State of Ohio, Michelin, Goodyear, Nucor Steel, rail companies, it's design staff in the US, etc. etc. not to mention the cost to build and maintain an entire production facility. On a similarly priced $30000 vehicle the costs paid to companies outside Honda's group if you will is far more than just $3000.
Building one Odessey is much more beneficial to the US than selling one Volvo. This was the basis of your argument and it's just false.
I will admit that building one Odessey may mean that several jobs may eventually be lost in Doraville. But that is the problem of a poor vehicle and worse management. The Doraville vehicle doesnt deserve to continue. We should not have to subject ourselves to 3rd or 4th rate products simply for patriotic reasons.
Your point #3 3. Foreign corporations pay almost zero corporate taxes on the profits they make in the US. (See "broke" above)
I worked at such a large international company for 20+ years and I wont dismiss this fact as wrong because tax planning is complex. However you stated it without any support at all. Please cite the specific references from the financial statements of Honda, Toyota and DC to confirm your point of view. Without substantiation it is just a point of view nothing more.
Finally this silly statement: 1. Toyota building cars and trucks in the US actually nets less jobs, than if they built them in Japan and imported them.
" it is estimated that by the mid-1990's at least 500,000 American jobs had been eliminated because of foreign owned automobile manufacturers operating in the US..."*
*Simmermaker, Roger How Americans can buy American second edition pp 18
Why silly? If Toyota did not build the vehicles here in KY, CA, IN and Canada and just imported 2+ Million vehicles from Japan the alleged 500000 jobs would still have been lost. It wasnt the the plants that lost the jobs it was the purchase of the vehicles. Either way if Toyota sells 2+ Million vehicles here the jobs were to be lost. We benefited because nearly 1.5 million of these vehicles were built by workers in the US and Canada.
None of your logic holds together and there are no supporting facts on your point #3 so the whole argument is specious. It's the same 'yellow journalism' used by the extreme left and extreme right to fire up their troops.
What you are really saying is this: GM and Ford should be given a free ride in their home market; Chrysler div of DC should be shut down immediately; All transplant faciilities should be closed as well. but.. GM should also remove itself from Europe and China; Ford should sell back Volvo, Jaguar and Rover. Do you honestly believe that one wont happen without the other. Adapt or move over before you get trampled, life goes on.
No, I wont support 3rd rate products with my money. I tried in the 70's and 80's and I wont any longer.
...of the so called Big 3, GM & Ford -both companies' top brass especially- are not understanding how removed or aloof and destructive they've been to their automakers' success, and how mostly non-competive they've remained still.
For today's cosmopolitan growing Americans and as led starting from California's treasured sophistication in the West, and then with Ohio's and Kentucky's coming on big in the East, have been growing and in ever higher numbers. That sustained learning growth and its continuing progressiveness has been favouring both the Honda Motor Company's car builds and the Toyota Motor Corporation's, as much or more. Favours them so much and to such an extent that the loss of market share of their competitors in general and the losses to both Ford's and GM's market shares in particularly, has gone entirely unchecked.
For it is no less the giant and gifted American philosopher, scientist and teacher W. Edwards Deming, who simply defined and for history what Total Quality built cars are and mean and that to the core pleases and tickles the very heart of pleasure loving Americans and to be more like the renowned European driving enthusiasts. They derive such pleasures then, and as our highways allow and from every minute of the full out driving on the twisties provides, as well as up to the common and sleep inducing 85 mph, or to the all too infrequent and very occasional 100+ mph or 115 mph, with drives on the interstates every day.
(A side note on our interstate highways: We are a country with such god awful panty waists and tea totallers for Authorities. In contrast to the highly sophisticated and godly inspired Engineering of the entire 5,500 miles of the German Traffic Engineered Autobahns... their's encourage all of Germany's over 60 million drivers, within a country, remember, that is smaller in size with 138 thousand sq. miles total, than the entire State of California's total of 155 thousand sq. miles, it is they who so abundantly enjoy and even rejoice in singing praises to the high heavens for the no speed limit on 5,000 miles of Germany's Autobahns while traveling so happily over their silky smooth surfaces besides.)
Hundreds of millions of so many and still growing classic enthusiasts love their cars' vault like solidity and quiet and sewing machine sounding or growling high revving bullet proof inspiring machines propelling them on, and sitting in fully supportive and comfortable for long drives driver's seats under them. They like the safe and secure feeling as to their car's handling, of course. They like it's fit and finish, not less. They like their tossable handling athleticism and they not less think well of their MPG attainments. And on and on they are all so much more liking and so many that are buying them just grows and grows...
So, "what will it take for consumers to buy American brands??" Just like GM has in its Fremont, California automaking plant, they just plaster Toyota made Vibes and Toyota made Geo Prisms with GM badges. Ford can badge over the Mazda 3s, I guess...
“For 35k one can easily get a loaded G35 that's RWD, far more powerful, more reliable ”
I agree
My problem with domestics is their MSRP; the waiting and wondering if you’re getting the “blue light special”. You don’t know if you have to wait till Christmas to get the 10K off or wait for the summer special and get 7K off, or the back to school, family pricing, employee pricing with 5K off plus 2K in rebates of course and 1 K in customer loyalty.
The Zephyr FULLY loaded, when all is said and done, will probably sell for 30K (who knows maybe less). It may not compete against a G35, but for 30K it would stack up nicely against a fully loaded Accord or Camry.
Most cars are compared based on price, unless you’re Bill Gates or Oprah, so people compare trucks, cars, suv’s, convertibles if they’re within their price range.
Lincoln, domestics that is, maybe pricing themselves out of potential sales especially if the customer is not savvy enough to know that Cadillac, or whatever, is really selling for 10K less and if they find out later, they’ll never be back.
There isn't much they can do there. I don't see much demand for a Lincoln Camry.
If you are going sell a $30-35k car, it has to compare favorably with other $30-35k cars.
How can you sell a Zephyr against a now 4-year old G35?
I don't know how a Lincoln exec would answer that question. From the Nav system, to engine, to styling (who made that rear-end?), to the available coupe and AWD.
By saying that you should be first in line to buy a new Honda Accord since it is made here in USA. And you are saving jobs for those workers who made that car in USA factory. By your theory we have Ford and GM the only American manufacturers that we must buy our cars from. I'm sorry, we live in the capitalist society so I buy products that are better made, have better value or simply because I feel like it! I refuse to buy cars made by Ford or GM because they are not better made or have a better value then Japanese or even now Koreans! For example I was on the market for small SUV and I like the styling of Chevy Equinox, but after test driving one, it could not be compare in terms of quality to Honda CR-V or Pilot. And they still using engines (made in China btw) that haven't changed since 1980's.
Plus give me a one good reason, if you are on the market for mid size sedan, why I should buy GM or Ford product over Toyota or Honda car? Are they better made? Are they depreciate less? Maybe using less gas?
Again, the last sentence of your post: "Buy American! The job you save could be your own!" looks like came from someone who would support Union labor (which is THE biggest reason why Americans can't compete with the rest of the world.)
And yes I'm from New York and for the past three days I REALLY hate unions. :mad:
While the Zephyr and the triplets are fine cars, head and shoulders above the Lamented Taurus, I find it funny how a supposed "Luxury Brand" like Lincoln has to fall back to being competition for the B&B Accord and Camry...
I've noticed the same over the years, especially the GM diehards. The Pontiac G6, was supposed to put the knife in the Acura TSX and even the TL! The Buick Lacrosse was supposed to be an alternative to the ES330. The Rendevous vs RX, Grand Prix another TL beater.
Funny how all of these cars embarrassingly fall flat in hitting their target and end up being yet another comparison to the venerable Honda and Toyo.
Says something about the solidity that these two (Accord and Camry) have in the marketplace if you ask me. :shades:
I find it funny how a supposed "Luxury Brand" like Lincoln has to fall back to being competition for the B&B Accord and Camry...
It is interesting. My main point was that if you take the “actual” sale price of an American car, they seem to be competitive because you can take a vehicle from a “higher class” e.g. the Lincoln versus a fully loaded camcord.
This is all theory on my part I’ve never owned an American car. I have a feeling my next purchase (down the road) will probably be German but I’ll make the effort to “try” the American product.
Says something about the solidity that these two (Accord and Camry) have in the marketplace if you ask me.
Very true personally can’t stand Toyota (especially Lexus), and I tolerate Honda although I can’t see buying another.
Well, i see the Zephyr at least being somewhat of a competitor to the TSX even though it is a much bigger car. But picking through the Edmunds forums, there are a few who will defend the MZ6 over the TSX, so I can see the same defense for the Lincoln.
Thing is, NOW Lincoln needs to build on the Zephyr, even if it means the newest Lincoln is nothing more than an entry Level car. With the unfortunate axing of (IMO) the excellent LS, lincoln should have a follow up car to go after the TL, then the RL and even something like an NSX halo car (Flame suit on for that one, but I am serious). Drop the lux Pickup and refine the Navigator into a unibody 7 seat MDX type of vehicle instead of chasing the Escalade, which IMO is going to be crippled by oil price scares.
I am not a union member, I work for a software company in the Technology sector. About a dozen of my biggest customers are Tier I and II suppliers to GM and Ford. Why would I consider buying a car from someone other than GM or Ford? I would be cutting my own life line! I am not arrogant to think that my work is good enough for them, but theirs is not good enough for me. My American cars and trucks have always been very reliable and provided great value. Japanese companies don't buy much software. They have been know to copy it though.
This is why I say buy American, the job you save may be your own. I bet many people on this thread are in the same boat as me, but have not thought about it this way.
I am not a union member, I work for a software company in the Technology sector.
Same here. I too work in the tech sector. I've seen many jobs offshored to India and nearshored to Canada. I know that our jobs are not safe.
But we can't support our US jobs by buying products we do not want. As I have stated earlier, if Big3 made a product that fit my wants, I'd gladly buy one.
Our jobs are safe only if we produce competitive products right here in the US.
What you are really saying is this: GM and Ford should be given a free ride in their home market; Chrysler div of DC should be shut down immediately; All transplant faciilities should be closed as well. but.. GM should also remove itself from Europe and China; Ford should sell back Volvo, Jaguar and Rover. Do you honestly believe that one wont happen without the other. Adapt or move over before you get trampled, life goes on.
No, what I am saying is :
1. American consumers and government should help provide a level playing field for American Companies to compete. Ford and GM have been providing a decent living for hundreds of thousands of Americans for over 100 years. They have provided medical benefits, Educations, and helped defend this country in major wars. Most people show the "what have you done for me lately" attitude, and now Honda is the good guy. Because we are connected economically, it is in our best interest for all troubled American companies to thrive and survive. This includes GM, Ford, United and Delta Airlines, Enron, Quest etc. We can start out with a balanced Yen to Dollar. As the Yen is currently 15-20% undervalued. This would help level the playing field. Also, if you research domestic supplers of Japanese companies, you will learn that most are whole-owned subsidieries of the foreign parent company (See Bodine Aluminium) Check out Toyotas $$ profits vs number of cars produced, and then debate where most of the money goes. Final assembly is a mere fraction of the total value.
2. Chrysler div of DC should continue to compete in a fair environment...unfortunate that the shareholders of this once great American company let it get away. Perhaps one day an American group can buy it back, so profits and taxes on those profits come back to America.
3. All transplant facilities should be closed as well. No, they should compete fairly, and they should open their country to competition as well. All tax subsides, such as the recent Michigan Economic Development $71 million tax credit to Hyundai to create 1000 jobs in Ann Arbor must cease immediately. It is not up to the American tax payer to fund Korean Research and Development centers.
4. Ford should sell back Volvo, Jaguar and Rover (you forgot Mazda). No, of course not. They should maximize profits from these companies, add to their bottom line, and use healthy divisions to fund those divisions lagging behind to build an economic powerhouse that provides salaries, benefits, educations and taxes to the United States and its citizens.
5. Do you honestly believe that one won’t happen without the other? Adapt or move over before you get trampled, life goes on. My reply is this-What do you do for living? Do you face foreign competition? Would your customers bail on you if a Japanese company came along and provided the same product and/or service as you do for a little less money (because the Japanese gov't would be subsidizing a portion of the cost for your competitor to steal your business). Now, what if your government gave them a huge tax credit to set-up shop right in your back yard? How would that affect your job? Your customers might say “No, I wont support 3rd rate products with my money. I tried in the '04 and '05 and I wont any longer.
Sincerey, Good luck, it's ok to agree to disagree. But think about it..And if you haven't done so, research the amount of wealth leaving this country and going to the Far East(Japan, Korea, China). Check out authors like; Lou Dobbs, Roger Simmermaker, Ted Fishman, Paul Craig Roberts, Thomas Friedman.
Soon, our country will not have enough economic and manufacturing might to defend itself. We will buy our military vehicles and equpment from the same countries that are selling them to our enemies. As I once heard an Economist say something like this - Prepare your children to pay the price for our short sighted economic polices.
Heiben sie meinen mann gut, seien sie ein deutscher Autobahnhusisttreiber? Ich sah, wo sie vorschlugen, das sie sind ein Ventilator, ivan_99, moglicherweise von Mercedes odr von BMW... Is that true? Then see #1311
"Because we are connected economically, it is in our best interest for all troubled American companies to thrive and survive. This includes GM, Ford, United and Delta Airlines, Enron, Quest etc"
Would you like to see companies like Enron to thrive?
Comments
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/opinion/1272791.html
This question has been asked for years, we need an answer!!
The chinese are a bunch of commies. Maybe they will get trade unions and the rest will be history
In today's world it doesnt matter. The money goes to the shareholders of that publically traded company. Toyota is a US company since they are traded on the NYSE as 'TM' and I own their stock. I sold the Ford/GM shares a few yrs ago in order to buy TM and Dell.
If you or your 401k own Honda or DC then they are US companies also for you.
Saab: they paid for a company that they don't have a clue of what to do with now.
Fiat: they essentially paid $1B to negate a deal they made with Fiat. What did they get out of it?
Subaru: oh, they got to sell about 100 9-2X. They sold Subaru's shares to Toyota, at a loss of course. Nobody doubted Toyota will make a roaring success of Subaru.
incentives: remember GM invented the incentives game. Turned out the game turned around and bit GM back. An average incentives for a GM car is $3.8K. Let's say GM sold about 6M each year. That's almost $20B, almost double Toyota's yearly profit.
Remember the late 90's were the salad days for GM and Ford, where they earned record profits. I still remember when the two of them talked about taking over MB, BMW and Honda. Who do you think is responsible most for such a steep decline? Management!
It's not quite that bad. GM only sold about 4.6 million vehicles last year, and will probably be not much above 4 million this year. GM hasn't seen 6 million a year since 1984-86, and hasn't cracked 5 million since 1994. Toyota and Honda basically doubled their sales in the last ten years.
Want answers? Here are the facts:
American product is from is from any company that is American Owned
Foreign product is from any company that is Foreign Owned
This is regardless of where it is assembled!
What exactly does this mean?
When you purchase any product, it is the people that reside in the place of ownership of the company that reap the most economic benefit from the money changing hands.
So, for example:
A Toyota assembled in the US is a Japanese car
A Dodge made in the US is a German car
A Ford made in Mexico is an American car
A Chevy made Canada is an American car
Now, what you really didn’t know A Nissan made anywhere is a French car!
That is correct, by Japanese law Nissan is controlled by French Renault
Real Economics: It is actually better for America, if you by a Volvo (Ford) made in Europe, than if you by a Honda assembled in the US. The purchase of the Volvo results in more money being recycled back into the US economy in the form of salaries and taxes than the US assembled Honda. The final assembly of a vehicle actually represents a very small percent of the value.
Why is this important?
Because we here in America are all economically connected. Ever wonder why our government has to borrow money from China and Japan to fight the war on terror? Wonder why or government has to borrow money from China to aid its own people during a national disaster? Because foreign corporations are grabbing more and more market share here in the US, and our tax base is shrinking. This is because corporations pay federal taxes back to the country of ownership, rather than the country that they are operating in. So, while Toyota makes 5 billion in profits here in the US, the taxes they pay go back to Japan. So, when you choose that 4Runner over an Explorer, you are sending $30K back to Japan for them to recycle into their economy. That same $30K spent on an American product would recycle through our economy x5 and generate about $30K in federal, state and local taxes. Now, if you are school teacher or fireman, or government worker, this should concern you. Any person, that has a salary is paid by taxes, which chooses to buy a foreign product, is actually cutting their own lifeline.
According to the people who have studied this, the spending hierarchy that benefits our economy is as follows;
1. American Owned, American Made
2. American Owned, Foreign Made
3. Foreign Owned, American Made
4. Foreign Owned, Foreign Made*
There you have it.
I personally have never owned a foreign car, and I have never owned a car that was not reliable. In fact, my American car (truck actually) is far more reliable than every other product and service that I purchase. It is certainly more reliable than my computer and software. More reliable than my Bank, satellite TV Service, Cell Phone Service, Doctor, Investment Advisor, Real Estate Agent, Favorite Sport Team, Source of News, and any Government Agency that I have ever dealt with. Folks who criticize American cars might think about cleaning their own shop, before being so judgmental. Think about your job would your customers stay loyal to you? Suppose they had a choice of a foreign product or service that was subsidized by their government so that the competitor could offer a little more than you do at the same price, would your customers stay loyal?
Buy American! The job you save could be your own!
*source www.howtobuyamerican.com
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have trouble getting that through my head.
A lot of the platform engineering in say, the Volvo S40 happened in Japan. Some overhead to Japan there. Manufacturing salaries and jobs: Europe. Salaries and jobs to suppliers: probably Western and Eastern Europe. The cost of developing and building a car is a very high percentage of the car's price - all but a couple thousand dollars. That goes to Japan and Europe. Maybe $2000 is profit, and that goes to the US. Half of it into the pockets of upper managers, who invest it where it's hot - foreign markets.
And if the US government fears anything, it's a massive divestment by foreign investors. It's too late; we need them. Maybe if we stopped running a defecit like we do...
==
But how I look at it is different. If GM and Ford were any other sort of company, they'd be dead. And no one would mourn them. Companies that make poor decisions for two or three decades straight die. Even companies that make good decisions sometimes die. It's really kind of weird for companies to survive on buyers' sentiments alone.
From what I can tell the west coast is extremely style conscious and anti Detroit. I don't know why it's hard to understand that California may not be representative of the rest of the US as a whole. If the rest of the country was like CA the Big 3 would have 20% market share instead of 55-60%. I do not doubt for one second that highly educated upper income left coast yuppies wouldn't be caught dead in anything thought to be "american" but I don't see how that proves anything. If Ford sold the Ford GT for $40K I don't think people in CA would buy it because it's not German or Japanese. YOu can usually tell how biased and uninformed someone is by the statements they make and I presume that most people you are around would say things like 'Caddies are crap, their for old people and I would be caught dead in one unless it was at Enterprise". That sounds good but any student of the automotive industry knows Caddy has progressed tremendously and is taking on Germany in way even Lexus hasn't attempted in it;s 1 years in existence. In the minds of a import loving social climber Lexus is king, but in the minds of driving (or design) enthusiasts Cadillac gets more respect than Lexus (or Acura, Volvo or Audi) and that means something. Personally, I prefer to focus on reasonable consumers who go into the car buying process with an open mind. Saying people on the west coast hate imports doesnt prove they are superior any more than hearing a Red Sox fan's opinion of the Yankess proves they are the worst team in baseball.
I didn't mean to suggest that people in a lower class part of the country think that a cheap 300C is high end exotic lxury sedan. I was just saying at that price point, in 2005 a 300C is likely to get more looks and more "buzz" than a Maxima or TL. I'm sure people in your neck of the woods don't even know what the 300C looks like, but based on it's sales thus far I would say other areas of the country like the car a lot. People of all races and types are seen driving vehicles like the CTS, STS, 300C, Escalade, Yukon Denali, Charger, Pacifica, H3, SRX, etc. in these parts, it's not just "recently poor" people who take cues from rap videos.
Personally, I turn my head when I see a 911 Turbo, S600, SL600, S4, S8, Phantom, Ferrari, Continental GT, Gallardo, etc. Those are high end cars to me and I do see them, but not as often as you do I'm sure. According to you people in San Diego aren't impressed by any MBs (not even SL65, SL600, CL65, CLS55) or BMW (M3, M5, 645, 760) or Audi (RS6, S8, S4).........all I can say is people out there must have more money than I ever thought if nothing short of a Bugatti gets a nod. Either that or they don't recognize fine machinery when they see it.
Bottom line is that you have to do more than appeal to the predictable suburban middle class to attract tomorrow's buyers. Toyota and Honda are successful today because they convinced tens of millions of people that there cars were cooler than the lame domestic boats their parents drove. I see a slow shift in tastes right now amongst east coast urban and suburban youths that bodes well for the american carmakers if they can keep turning out cars with distinctive styling. ToyoHonda have been able to design dull cars for years because they had the reputation for quality and people were willing to accept their boring boxes on wheels. In the future, it will take more than that to stand out because sooner or later smart, open minded consumers will figure out that everyone is making quality vehicles so there are options out there beyond ToyoHonda.
The day American cars became as good wasn't going to be the day they got their market share back. There has to be a big difference between cars for some people to switch allegiance to a brand. In the last decades, there has been a big difference, so people switched over to Toyota and Honda. If the cars are equal now, then converts might trickle one way or the other. But to get 60+ percent of the market, the Big 3 would have to create a gap just like the one that lost them their market share.
With trucks there has been a big gap, so the Big 3 have sold a lot of trucks and SUVs to Camry and Accord owners.
On a separate issue, I think urban buyers have more experience with environmental blight, so they're more likely to buy into Toyota and Honda's "green" message. Not that Toyota's is true, but if you're buying a Corolla you are getting a pretty green car. Honda's green reputation is as real as a carmaker can have.
There's more PR goodness for Toyota and Honda. They came here humbly, with humble cars and a strong work ethic. The Goliaths that they've defeated were big, ungainly, arrogant, and uncaring, so the public wasn't on their side. Our love of the nice-guy underdog throwing a revolution was stronger than corporate patriotism. I think that's a cultural trait we have, and Toyota and Honda played the role perfectly.
I dunno if it's that simple. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and even Hyundai have large operations here, and are at least expanding their employment base. Compare that to Ford and GM, who are shrinking and/or shipping manufacturing jobs overseas to low cost countries.
And I doubt that 100% of the money goes straight back to their respect home countries and simply remain there. A lot of $$ comes right back to US in form of product research and more expansion and jobs: look at the gigantic truck plant Toyota is building in Texas.
I agree!
Why don't I hear this more often?
At the same time, if I spend 30K on a Toyota built and sold in the US, not all $30k is going to Japan, in fact, quite a bit stays here.
The dealer makes a profit. An american truck driver and/or an american railway most likely was paid to ship it. Not to mention wages were paid to the employees of the Toyota mfg plant here in the US. All of those employees pay taxes as does the person buying the car, many states charge personal property tax on the vehicle as well.
Last I checked Toyota buys parts from Delphi and other US auto suppliers as well. Sure I would prefer to see US based companies do well. But to say every penny spent on a foreign car goes out of the US is simply not true.
...followed by long inaccurate economic ramble...
In the ramble above it was stated that ..
Real Economics: It is actually better for America, if you by a Volvo (Ford) made in Europe, than if you by a Honda assembled in the US. The purchase of the Volvo results in more money being recycled back into the US economy in the form of salaries and taxes than the US assembled Honda. The final assembly of a vehicle actually represents a very small percent of the value.
This statement is so utterly wrong it's laughable.
A) OK let's go with the stated example and say that you might want to purchase a Volvo ( made in Europe ) which...results in more money being recycled back into the US economy in the form of salaries and taxes than the US assembled Honda..
So according this poster after paying all the costs of the steel made in Sweden and aluminum made in Sweden and leather and parts and accessories and overhead in Sweden and white collar salaries in Sweden and govt taxes in Sweden and blue collar wages in Sweden, etc etc etc the resulting Net Profit After Taxes is more than the money spent assembling say a $30000 Honda minivan here. Lets look rationally at this statement.
According to the poster then a $30000 Volvo generates more profit back to Ford USA than what it costs Honda to build its minivan. So the profit on this Volvo is greater than the cost of the steel made in the US and aluminum made in the US and leather and parts and accessories and overhead in the US and white collar salaries in the US and govt taxes in the US and blue collar wages in the US????
What does it cost to build a $30000 Odessey here? $20000 ?? Probably way too low. But let's use it.
According the poster the money brought back to the US on a Volvo after all the costs in Sweden is MORE than $20000?
Come on be serious. Silly statements prove nothing. How much profit do you think there is on a Volvo??? $20000??
Here is the real economic picture. Net Profit After Taxes in Sweden ( which are beneficial only in Sweden btw ) is maybe several thousand $US but any good owner will recycle that money back into the plant and equipment in Sweden and bring a very small amount back home as a HQ Exp ( Dearborn ) and Dividend to the shareholders ( you and me and Otto and Guy and Yomura-san no matter where we are located).
Second nonsensical statement:
If a company is registered in KY or DE or NY it is a US company subject to Federal, State and Local Tax the same as any other company.
Actually it's worse for us when Ford has a plant in Sweden because it has to pay taxes on it's profits in Sweden and the IRS gives taxpayers ( Ford, you and me ) a credit for the taxes paid in other countries. In other words the taxes on profits that should be kept here are instead kept in Sweden since the IRS gives Ford a credit on the taxes paid there. It helps the Swedish economy not ours.
Zephyr, btw, was one of the American rentals I was impressed with.
As for people in California not being too impressed with the domestic cars, it seems to me they just reacted differently to being sold crap since say 1973. They tried Japan and German makes, were impressed by ride, handling and durability and never returned. We drive a lot here. Some drive fast; some drive faster. Cars with style and performance, like Mustangs always sold well. A fair number of Cadillacs are sold here. A car like a CTS is not bad, but I am not seeing it somehow as to the value of the car vs. say the Chrysler 300 with a 250HP V6. The base model CTS costs more. A mid-range CTS is more costly than the 300C hemi - go figure. What review has been won in comparison tests between Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, BMW, Mercedes and others in the upper class. Have they won?
As for SUVs, if you've seen one, you have seen them all. The Escalade looks like a Chevy SUV with bling-bling. The Cobalt is not going to impress the youth market when compared to the Civic Si, now is it? Over the years, it has become apparent that Ford and GM has had a problem with attention deficit disorder, as the customer kept telling them they were not impressed with their product. Lots of talk about style. Take a look at the Accord coupe compared to the G6 Coupe -- cleaner lines, now aren't they. Solstice, Mustang and Chrysler new products are selling in California. It is not impossible for the bid three to sell cars in California - just has to be best product.
:shades: Loren
Games are played with costs by buying from related companies where the profit really goes back to the foreign-owned company in the end or goes to off-shore companies and weaves its way back.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you are a stock holder in a company it makes a big difference where the company is registered. For instance I used to own shares in Chrysler and then they were taken over by Daimler to became Daimler-Chrysler. So I received some shares in DC. Their head quarters are in Germany and its a German company.
Why does it matter to me?
Because the dividends that are paid out by Daimler-Chrysler are taxed in Germany. The German government takes their tax on the dividend and then what is left is given to you as a shareholder. This creates two problems for American shareholders. One is the pain in the [non-permissible content removed] of dealing with foreign income taxes when you file 1040 forms. Since you already paid a tax on the dividend you are not taxed twice by US government, but all of the paperwork involved made me sell the stock. The other thing is that the German government benefits from the tax, not American government.
Now its the same thing when foreigners own shares in American companies. Don't worry, the US government makes sure and tax their dividends right here.
We buy more cars than any other state. Shrug. The styles, the fads, the mods come from here.
If Ford sold the Ford GT for $40K I don't think people in CA would buy it because it's not German or Japanese.
I wouldn't buy it because it's cramped, ugly, not very useful, not efficient, not luxurious and still too expensive for a Ford. Maybe for 20k I'd at least take a test drive. Though I'd never buy it.
Caddy has progressed tremendously and is taking on Germany in way even Lexus hasn't attempted in it;s 1 years in existence. In the minds of a import loving social climber Lexus is king, but in the minds of driving (or design) enthusiasts Cadillac gets more respect than Lexus
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Driving enthusiasts have never embraced Lexus. And caddy's offerings are a good 2 generations behind European sport sedans. I loved after my test drive of a CTS the salesguy asked how I liked it. I told him its handling was too soft and sloppy to compare to the 3, G35 and even the lackluster A4/Class. His rejoinder, "This is a caddy." What the hell?! The car was supposed to be a challenger to germans. It's not even a challenger to the A4.
People of all races and types are seen driving vehicles like the CTS, STS, 300C, Escalade, Yukon Denali, Charger, Pacifica, H3, SRX, etc. in these parts, it's not just "recently poor" people who take cues from rap videos.
I merely expressed a perception. I did not call it fact. Caddy is perceived by many to be a lesser make. Rich old guys/gangsters and car salesmen with some dough.
According to you people in San Diego aren't impressed by any MBs (not even SL65, SL600, CL65, CLS55) or BMW (M3, M5, 645, 760) or Audi (RS6, S8, S4).........
Come on over, check it out. In so cal in general - san diego, carlsbad, san clemente, the OC, LA you're not gonna get a lick of attention in an Audi anything or a Mercedes of any kind. If someone notices an M3 in San Diego...they must be new to the area. Seriously M3s are so common one begins to wonder how BMW can consider it a unique car. On bimmer forums people made a logical jump that because they didn't many e90 3 series on the road, the car must be selling poorly. So I began to count e90s; I'd see 4-5 of them each way during my commute a few months ago. Now I see that many in the building's parking garage alone.
all I can say is people out there must have more money than I ever thought if nothing short of a Bugatti gets a nod. Either that or they don't recognize fine machinery when they see it.
You go to SD's big mall, Fashion Valley and you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a late model car that stickered for over 75k.
Toyota and Honda are successful today because they convinced tens of millions of people that there cars were cooler than the lame domestic boats their parents drove.
It wasn't coolness. It was features. It was value. It was perception of quality. Look at how Toyota launched the LS400 and Infiniti launched the G35. That's exactly how to steal from the market leaders. Look at Hyundai's ascent. In 10 years I will not be shocked to see a luxury line from Hyundai that will repeat the same model Toyota once used (and forgot) with the Lexus.
because sooner or later smart, open minded consumers will figure out that everyone is making quality vehicles so there are options out there beyond ToyoHonda.
Quality is about perception. The perception still remains that GM/Ford/Mopar are not quality cars - power, ride, interior materials, ergonomicas, etc.
kdhspyder, if you are going to mock me, then you must quote sources for your information.
I knew my post would set off a barrage of reply’s calling me crazy, but it is all true. Americans really need to know what is happening behind the scenes.
If you really think that all is well, and the US can remain an economic and military superpower with all of our manufacturing jobs supplied by foreign owned companies, then you are just fooling yourself. The fact that America is really broke, approaching a 60% debt to GDP ratio, with a government that cannot afford to help its own people in a crisis speaks for itself. Disprove that with seat of the pants math formulas, and inaccurate numbers that you made up. You can rationalize all you want, but study the facts, the politics, and the screwball economics that make up the system before telling me I don't know what I am talking about!
I hold firm to the three main points of my post:
1. The country of ownership is who benefits the most in any transaction. (The reason why the more Toyotas, Hondas and Kias we buy, the more broke our nation becomes)
2. The final assembly of a car and the dealer profit is a mere fraction of the total cost. (Most of the money goes out of the country faster than a Toyota Sequoia goes through a tank of premium fuel)
3. Foreign corporations pay almost zero corporate taxes on the profits they make in the US. (See "broke" above)
Now, Toyota is the good guy, because they are building plant in Texas-
Here is another fact to get you fired up:
1. Toyota building cars and trucks in the US actually nets less jobs, than if they built them in Japan and imported them.
" it is estimated that by the mid-1990's at least 500,000 American jobs had been eliminated because of foreign owned automobile manufacturers operating in the US..."*
*Simmermaker, Roger How Americans can buy American second edition pp 18
All foreign auto manufacturers in the US combined total less than 100,000 workers, so for every job they create, we loose about four.
Oh, by the way kdhspyder, Volvos are typically assembled in Belgium, not Sweden. Recommend you study up before trashing someone!
Buy American, the job you save may be your own!
Turn around? No. Another fast depreciating flop? Yes!
For 35k one can easily get a loaded G35 that's RWD, far more powerful, more reliable (Mazda6 isn't so hot for reliability), comes with a far better warranty and comes with stellar resale.
Acura TL loaded is also around 35k and it obliterates the Zephyr in all respects.
Said it before, Lincoln needed to price the loaded model at 30k and price it against the smaller, less impressive TSX. They'd move more product. It's current pricing sets the lincoln up for the now-redundant rebates (thus killing resale).
Before that you also wrote and I quote: "FWIW auto makers have always tested and proven new ideals on the race track."
The definition of IDEAL: "An ideal is a principle or value that one actively pursues as a goal."
One does not test IDEALS, you either have them or you don't. You have principles, you have values. Do you test values, do you test principles. Ideals are princeples by which companies live. I would guess that for most companies their IDEALS would be to earn profits.
You most certainly don't test IDEALS on the race track. What you do on a race track is test new IDEAS. Like an IDEA of a new engine or better driver protection. These things are IDEAS and not IDEALS.
As a matter of fact, if I can conjure up the repressed memories, the Cimmoron and CTS share a distant sense of "style", if you like the poetry of GM's novel 3-box design "language"
(Little chance of someone showing a photo comparison of the two, as most Cimmorons disolved in the rain! :P )
Carlisimo/Post #1289
Nice post!
AG11/Post #1291
I can only beat that drum so often. But it is a nice, big drum, that.....sounds so right when you hit it just so! :P
DrFill
I have been hearing about improved domestic quality since 1980. For the last 25 years all that I remember is Detroit telling consumers that we don't build those crap cars anymore, and that our quality NOW is just as good as the Japanese.
You know what people are just plain and simple tired of the same old BS from Detroit. I personnely had 2 lemon domestic cars in last 15 years. The last one was made in 2003. You look at problems people have with Ford Expeditions made in 2003 model year. You look at people having problems with 6.0L Powerstroke Ford Diesels. You look at the people having problems with GM V8 piston slap. To get American car companies to fix anything, you have to sue them.
Look at the recent law suit against Ford for Plastic Manifolds on their 4.6L engines. Ford refused to fix this problem until they were taken to court. Here is the link.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051217/AUTO01/512170310&Sear- chID=7323039265398
When I had a rattle in the back of my 2003 Ford Expedition, the dealer told me that they all do that and there is nothing that they can do. So don't tell me the quality is the same. I have experienced Detroit quality on my own skin, and I don't want to do it again. And yes now I also drive a Honda. I love it. I purchased a 2005 Honda Odessey. Its been great. It drives nice and my wife loves it. Yes I can tell a difference in quality.
I am just sick and tired of having people on this forum tell that quality of domestic cars is the same as imports like Honda and Toyota and BMW.
As far as there being nice cars in San Diego, I agree. There are many nice cars there. Its because when you spend $1,000,000 for a small two bedroom town home whats another $100,000 for a nice car. Its like somebody who lives in Michigan and spends $10,000 on a car. Most things in California are more expensive, but not cars. They cost the same as the rest of America. This means that relative to other things in California cars are cheap. I think that is one of the reasons that people drive nice cars.
Nice post! "
Thanks =]. It didn't get quoted and argued against much, so it must've been pretty decent?
==
And from blueguydotcom's post (which expresses California very well):
How in the name of all that's holy did "you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting..." become an English idiom?
1. The country of ownership is who benefits the most in any transaction. (The reason why the more Toyotas, Hondas and Kias we buy, the more broke our nation becomes)
2. The final assembly of a car and the dealer profit is a mere fraction of the total cost. (Most of the money goes out of the country faster than a Toyota Sequoia goes through a tank of premium fuel)
3. Foreign corporations pay almost zero corporate taxes on the profits they make in the US. (See "broke" above)
I'll address your #1 and #2 together:
You make no differentiation between imported vehicles like the 4Runner and US-built vehicles like the Odessey. You can hold to your position if you like but the basis for it is false so it begs the question "Is there any validity to the argument?'
Yes imported vehicles mainly benefit the originating country. No question.
You stated however initially that Ford benefits the US more by selling a Volvo here than Honda benefits the US by building and distributing an Odessey here. That is just false. Ford may repatriate a few thousand dollars of profit here after paying all its costs in Europe. This profit is taxed ( when they make an annual profit ) and then distributed to the shareholders ( a relatively narrow group ). If they do not make an annual profit then there is no tax paid it just helps cancel losses from other operations. In any event it's a small number.. $3000 possibly??
Honda OTOH has to pay US Steel, J&L Stainless, it's own workers, the State of Ohio, Michelin, Goodyear, Nucor Steel, rail companies, it's design staff in the US, etc. etc. not to mention the cost to build and maintain an entire production facility. On a similarly priced $30000 vehicle the costs paid to companies outside Honda's group if you will is far more than just $3000.
Building one Odessey is much more beneficial to the US than selling one Volvo. This was the basis of your argument and it's just false.
I will admit that building one Odessey may mean that several jobs may eventually be lost in Doraville. But that is the problem of a poor vehicle and worse management. The Doraville vehicle doesnt deserve to continue. We should not have to subject ourselves to 3rd or 4th rate products simply for patriotic reasons.
Your point #3
3. Foreign corporations pay almost zero corporate taxes on the profits they make in the US. (See "broke" above)
I worked at such a large international company for 20+ years and I wont dismiss this fact as wrong because tax planning is complex. However you stated it without any support at all. Please cite the specific references from the financial statements of Honda, Toyota and DC to confirm your point of view. Without substantiation it is just a point of view nothing more.
Finally this silly statement:
1. Toyota building cars and trucks in the US actually nets less jobs, than if they built them in Japan and imported them.
" it is estimated that by the mid-1990's at least 500,000 American jobs had been eliminated because of foreign owned automobile manufacturers operating in the US..."*
*Simmermaker, Roger How Americans can buy American second edition pp 18
Why silly? If Toyota did not build the vehicles here in KY, CA, IN and Canada and just imported 2+ Million vehicles from Japan the alleged 500000 jobs would still have been lost. It wasnt the the plants that lost the jobs it was the purchase of the vehicles. Either way if Toyota sells 2+ Million vehicles here the jobs were to be lost. We benefited because nearly 1.5 million of these vehicles were built by workers in the US and Canada.
None of your logic holds together and there are no supporting facts on your point #3 so the whole argument is specious. It's the same 'yellow journalism' used by the extreme left and extreme right to fire up their troops.
What you are really saying is this:
GM and Ford should be given a free ride in their home market;
Chrysler div of DC should be shut down immediately;
All transplant faciilities should be closed as well.
but..
GM should also remove itself from Europe and China;
Ford should sell back Volvo, Jaguar and Rover.
Do you honestly believe that one wont happen without the other. Adapt or move over before you get trampled, life goes on.
No, I wont support 3rd rate products with my money. I tried in the 70's and 80's and I wont any longer.
For today's cosmopolitan growing Americans and as led starting from California's treasured sophistication in the West, and then with Ohio's and Kentucky's coming on big in the East, have been growing and in ever higher numbers. That sustained learning growth and its continuing progressiveness has been favouring both the Honda Motor Company's car builds and the Toyota Motor Corporation's, as much or more. Favours them so much and to such an extent that the loss of market share of their competitors in general and the losses to both Ford's and GM's market shares in particularly, has gone entirely unchecked.
For it is no less the giant and gifted American philosopher, scientist and teacher W. Edwards Deming, who simply defined and for history what Total Quality built cars are and mean and that to the core pleases and tickles the very heart of pleasure loving Americans and to be more like the renowned European driving enthusiasts. They derive such pleasures then, and as our highways allow and from every minute of the full out driving on the twisties provides, as well as up to the common and sleep inducing 85 mph, or to the all too infrequent and very occasional 100+ mph or 115 mph, with drives on the interstates every day.
(A side note on our interstate highways: We are a country with such god awful panty waists and tea totallers for Authorities. In contrast to the highly sophisticated and godly inspired Engineering of the entire 5,500 miles of the German Traffic Engineered Autobahns... their's encourage all of Germany's over 60 million drivers, within a country, remember, that is smaller in size with 138 thousand sq. miles total, than the entire State of California's total of 155 thousand sq. miles, it is they who so abundantly enjoy and even rejoice in singing praises to the high heavens for the no speed limit on 5,000 miles of Germany's Autobahns while traveling so happily over their silky smooth surfaces besides.)
Hundreds of millions of so many and still growing classic enthusiasts love their cars' vault like solidity and quiet and sewing machine sounding or growling high revving bullet proof inspiring machines propelling them on, and sitting in fully supportive and comfortable for long drives driver's seats under them. They like the safe and secure feeling as to their car's handling, of course. They like it's fit and finish, not less. They like their tossable handling athleticism and they not less think well of their MPG attainments. And on and on they are all so much more liking and so many that are buying them just grows and grows...
So, "what will it take for consumers to buy American brands??" Just like GM has in its Fremont, California automaking plant, they just plaster Toyota made Vibes and Toyota made Geo Prisms with GM badges. Ford can badge over the Mazda 3s, I guess...
I agree
My problem with domestics is their MSRP; the waiting and wondering if you’re getting the “blue light special”. You don’t know if you have to wait till Christmas to get the 10K off or wait for the summer special and get 7K off, or the back to school, family pricing, employee pricing with 5K off plus 2K in rebates of course and 1 K in customer loyalty.
The Zephyr FULLY loaded, when all is said and done, will probably sell for 30K (who knows maybe less). It may not compete against a G35, but for 30K it would stack up nicely against a fully loaded Accord or Camry.
Most cars are compared based on price, unless you’re Bill Gates or Oprah, so people compare trucks, cars, suv’s, convertibles if they’re within their price range.
Lincoln, domestics that is, maybe pricing themselves out of potential sales especially if the customer is not savvy enough to know that Cadillac, or whatever, is really selling for 10K less and if they find out later, they’ll never be back.
If you are going sell a $30-35k car, it has to compare favorably with other $30-35k cars.
How can you sell a Zephyr against a now 4-year old G35?
I don't know how a Lincoln exec would answer that question. From the Nav system, to engine, to styling (who made that rear-end?), to the available coupe and AWD.
DrFill
By saying that you should be first in line to buy a new Honda Accord since it is made here in USA. And you are saving jobs for those workers who made that car in USA factory.
By your theory we have Ford and GM the only American manufacturers that we must buy our cars from. I'm sorry, we live in the capitalist society so I buy products that are better made, have better value or simply because I feel like it! I refuse to buy cars made by Ford or GM because they are not better made or have a better value then Japanese or even now Koreans!
For example I was on the market for small SUV and I like the styling of Chevy Equinox, but after test driving one, it could not be compare in terms of quality to Honda CR-V or Pilot. And they still using engines (made in China btw) that haven't changed since 1980's.
Plus give me a one good reason, if you are on the market for mid size sedan, why I should buy GM or Ford product over Toyota or Honda car? Are they better made? Are they depreciate less? Maybe using less gas?
Again, the last sentence of your post: "Buy American! The job you save could be your own!" looks like came from someone who would support Union labor (which is THE biggest reason why Americans can't compete with the rest of the world.)
And yes I'm from New York and for the past three days I REALLY hate unions. :mad:
I've noticed the same over the years, especially the GM diehards. The Pontiac G6, was supposed to put the knife in the Acura TSX and even the TL! The Buick Lacrosse was supposed to be an alternative to the ES330. The Rendevous vs RX, Grand Prix another TL beater.
Funny how all of these cars embarrassingly fall flat in hitting their target and end up being yet another comparison to the venerable Honda and Toyo.
Says something about the solidity that these two (Accord and Camry) have in the marketplace if you ask me. :shades:
It is interesting. My main point was that if you take the “actual” sale price of an American car, they seem to be competitive because you can take a vehicle from a “higher class” e.g. the Lincoln versus a fully loaded camcord.
This is all theory on my part I’ve never owned an American car. I have a feeling my next purchase (down the road) will probably be German but I’ll make the effort to “try” the American product.
Says something about the solidity that these two (Accord and Camry) have in the marketplace if you ask me.
Very true personally can’t stand Toyota (especially Lexus), and I tolerate Honda although I can’t see buying another.
Thing is, NOW Lincoln needs to build on the Zephyr, even if it means the newest Lincoln is nothing more than an entry Level car. With the unfortunate axing of (IMO) the excellent LS, lincoln should have a follow up car to go after the TL, then the RL and even something like an NSX halo car (Flame suit on for that one, but I am serious). Drop the lux Pickup and refine the Navigator into a unibody 7 seat MDX type of vehicle instead of chasing the Escalade, which IMO is going to be crippled by oil price scares.
Just an idea.
I am not a union member, I work for a software company in the Technology sector. About a dozen of my biggest customers are Tier I and II suppliers to GM and Ford. Why would I consider buying a car from someone other than GM or Ford? I would be cutting my own life line! I am not arrogant to think that my work is good enough for them, but theirs is not good enough for me. My American cars and trucks have always been very reliable and provided great value. Japanese companies don't buy much software. They have been know to copy it though.
This is why I say buy American, the job you save may be your own. I bet many people on this thread are in the same boat as me, but have not thought about it this way.
Same here. I too work in the tech sector. I've seen many jobs offshored to India and nearshored to Canada. I know that our jobs are not safe.
But we can't support our US jobs by buying products we do not want. As I have stated earlier, if Big3 made a product that fit my wants, I'd gladly buy one.
Our jobs are safe only if we produce competitive products right here in the US.
This kind of rhetoric doesn't work. It didn't work 20 years ago and it wouldn't work now. Product is the key to success and not hollow statements.
GM and Ford should be given a free ride in their home market;
Chrysler div of DC should be shut down immediately;
All transplant faciilities should be closed as well.
but..
GM should also remove itself from Europe and China;
Ford should sell back Volvo, Jaguar and Rover.
Do you honestly believe that one wont happen without the other. Adapt or move over before you get trampled, life goes on.
No, what I am saying is :
1. American consumers and government should help provide a level playing field for American Companies to compete. Ford and GM have been providing a decent living for hundreds of thousands of Americans for over 100 years. They have provided medical benefits, Educations, and helped defend this country in major wars. Most people show the "what have you done for me lately" attitude, and now Honda is the good guy. Because we are connected economically, it is in our best interest for all troubled American companies to thrive and survive. This includes GM, Ford, United and Delta Airlines, Enron, Quest etc.
We can start out with a balanced Yen to Dollar. As the Yen is currently 15-20% undervalued. This would help level the playing field. Also, if you research domestic supplers of Japanese companies, you will learn that most are whole-owned subsidieries of the foreign parent company (See Bodine Aluminium) Check out Toyotas $$ profits vs number of cars produced, and then debate where most of the money goes. Final assembly is a mere fraction of the total value.
2. Chrysler div of DC should continue to compete in a fair environment...unfortunate that the shareholders of this once great American company let it get away. Perhaps one day an American group can buy it back, so profits and taxes on those profits come back to America.
3. All transplant facilities should be closed as well. No, they should compete fairly, and they should open their country to competition as well. All tax subsides, such as the recent Michigan Economic Development $71 million tax credit to Hyundai to create 1000 jobs in Ann Arbor must cease immediately. It is not up to the American tax payer to fund Korean Research and Development centers.
4. Ford should sell back Volvo, Jaguar and Rover (you forgot Mazda). No, of course not. They should maximize profits from these companies, add to their bottom line, and use healthy divisions to fund those divisions lagging behind to build an economic powerhouse that provides salaries, benefits, educations and taxes to the United States and its citizens.
5. Do you honestly believe that one won’t happen without the other? Adapt or move over before you get trampled, life goes on.
My reply is this-What do you do for living? Do you face foreign competition? Would your customers bail on you if a Japanese company came along and provided the same product and/or service as you do for a little less money (because the Japanese gov't would be subsidizing a portion of the cost for your competitor to steal your business). Now, what if your government gave them a huge tax credit to set-up shop right in your back yard? How would that affect your job? Your customers might say “No, I wont support 3rd rate products with my money. I tried in the '04 and '05 and I wont any longer.
Sincerey, Good luck, it's ok to agree to disagree. But think about it..And if you haven't done so, research the amount of wealth leaving this country and going to the Far East(Japan, Korea, China). Check out authors like; Lou Dobbs, Roger Simmermaker, Ted Fishman, Paul Craig Roberts, Thomas Friedman.
Soon, our country will not have enough economic and manufacturing might to defend itself. We will buy our military vehicles and equpment from the same countries that are selling them to our enemies. As I once heard an Economist say something like this - Prepare your children to pay the price for our short sighted economic polices.
Why would I cut my own lifeline? My customers are American manufacturers, so why would I buy manufactured products from elsewhere?
What if you would not like their cars, would you continue to buy it?
Would you like to see companies like Enron to thrive?