"As I recall, in the mid/late 80's the Chevy Prism and Toyota Corolla were the same car, but the Chevy always used to get worse reviews!"
Were they EXACTLY the same? I sat in a mid-90s Prizm that had an uglier center console than my family's '92 Corolla. Funny thing is that I saw the same ugly center console in a C5 Corvette, but that's beside the point.
If they were the same, then the possible explanations for the different reviews are: 1) dealer service, 2) resale value, 3) reputation.
The first two have real effects on the consumer. The third (which is replaced by the word "perception" if you're a GM fan) is real to a great many people. Look at the treads bashing on Kia... well, Geo wasn't much better at the time. The Corolla had the venerable Camry as a stablemate, and the Prizm had... the Metro. It was unjust, but that was a bad thing for the Prizm.
Um, add to the exploding intake manifolds, busted sunshells, snapping A-arms, O2 sensors, on Garbage Motors products...
I haven't heard much on the exploding intakes, but it happened to a friend of mine's grandmother's LeSabre. From the description I got, they were lucky the car wasn't in the garage or it might have burned the house down.
My fathers Grand Prix had it replaced within the first month he had it. He brought it back for an inspection and the dealer found a crack and fixed it right away (well in 4 days actually, made him pay for a loaner!)
All is well now and the car has something like 60k on it. It's just plain basic transportation, nothing special. So far its been pretty reliable.
And there are some that do believe that Caddy is back and in the same league as the Germans.
Yes, Quality wise Caddy is in the same league as the Germans, but its only because the Germans have fallen so far in Quality. At least its easy to understand why the German quality (Mercedes) has fallen so much. They have introduced so much technology in a short period of time. That lead to many problems.
One thing that you have to keep in mind is that most German luxury cars are leased. I think that something like 50% of all S-class Mercedes and 745 BMWs are leased. There are very good tax reasons for leasing luxury cars. The car is kept by the owner while it is still under warrantee. Germans also include free maintenance with their cars. So break downs don't really cost you any money. Its just a hassle to take the car to dealer all of the time.
I don't know what percent of Cadillacs are leased, but I would bet that it cost about the same to lease a more expensive BMW or Mercedes as Cadillac just because of poor resale values of Cadillacs.
In fact I am a little surprised that nobody on this forum talks about leasing. I remember that Leasing was very popular in late 1990's and American car companies leased many new cars. I had a 1997 Ford Expedition that I leased for 2 years at about $290 per month. Yes a $28,000 car for $290 per month with no money down for 24 months. That was the best lease deal I ever had.
The last time I checked it was fairly expensive to lease a new American car. Poor resale values on American cars killed leasing on them. You can still get a good lease rate on Honda and Toyota. I wonder what percent of new Hondas and Toyotas are leased.
I would like to help you get over your problems with Mercedes any way I can. If it takes being Dr. Phil, then so be it. When you go and buy your first Mercedes you will think of me and thank me.
I just think that it is strange that Domestic cars consistently cost more to deliver then Japanese cars built in America. My point was that if a company cannot even efficiently ship its product from its plant to the customer, what good is this company. GM and Ford have been in buissness for close to 100 years. Why is that Toyota and Honda can come here and negotiate better shipping rates then GM and Ford.
The other point is that this speaks of the overall waist in the systems of Domestic companies. If it costs 30% more to ship a GM car then a Toyota, then maybe GM also pays 30% more to ship car parts from suppliers to the car plant. All of these "hidden costs" show up in the price of the car.
That is just another reason why GM and Ford cannot and never will build a car as good as Toyota or Honda and sell it for the same amount. Its just not possible for them. Look, they can't even figure out how to ship a car from Detroit for the same money as Honda can ship a car from Alabama. And you want them to actually Build a car as good in Detroit.
Were they EXACTLY the same? I sat in a mid-90s Prizm that had an uglier center console than my family's '92 Corolla
In the late 80's they were exactly the same car built on the same assembly line. I don't know about different model years. Even Consumer Reports said that they were the same car.
Why is that Toyota and Honda can come here and negotiate better shipping rates then GM and Ford.
Well right off the bat you don't know that can. You are paying what the manufacturer charges to ship the car to the dealer, not what the manufacturer or dealer pays to have it shipped.
Honda and Toyota could be discounting that shipping cost which means that they may or may not be tacking it on to the MSRP.
On the other hand GM and Ford could be adding to the cost of the shipping as a profit center.
We just don't know.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes, Quality wise Caddy is in the same league as the Germans, but its only because the Germans have fallen so far in Quality
Cadillac may have better reliability than Mercedes, but they certainly don't have the quality. There is a big difference between the two that most people on this board don't recognize or care about. Then again, if you compare a MB to a Caddy, apples to apples, the MB will be more $$, thus it should be better in some sort of measurable way and they generally are.
Same with BMW, I just appreciate the way they communicate with the drive when behind the wheel and the turbine smoothness of their powertrains, nothing can compare (IMO). The few times I've had the privilege to drive a BMW in a manor that they were designed to be driven, I've alway come away from the car with a "WOW".
Some may not appreciate the qualities that MB & BMW offer, or even Honda or Toyota. That's fine, It's not different than me saying I don't like the quality (not the same as reliability) offered from GM. Who's right? My guess is both sides. Lemko, can say he would walk before he drove a Camry. And I can say I'd push a Camry, before being caught dead in a '89 Cadillac Broughm (LOL). Just kidding Lemko, I appreciate your passion for Cadillacs and was only making a point.
Were they EXACTLY the same? I sat in a mid-90s Prizm that had an uglier center console than my family's '92 Corolla. Funny thing is that I saw the same ugly center console in a C5 Corvette, but that's beside the point.
No, they weren't exactly the same. Apart from the exterior styling cues, the early-90s Prizm didn't get the nicer interior that went in the Corolla, and it was missing the swaybars and other little 'decontents' like that. Underneath, it was still basically a Toyota and thus vastly superior to the contemporary Cavalier.
And there we have it. GM starts with a 'great' product and it ends up being merely 'good'. Which is fine... if there isn't a 'great' product out there. Little things like swaybars and interior bits are enough to change a customer's mind!
There is a lot of variation around the country when you look at what's acceptable amongst the well to do.
I laugh at people on here who talk about their home areas and pretend that what goes on there in terms of auot purchases is gospel. As best I can tell, new money areas like he west coast and the "new" south are much more focused on import luxury brands. I live in Philly and there is no connection to the Detriot auto industry here but Cadillacs are everywhere. Even the SRX is well represented in these parts which is surprising because it hasnt sold that well. MBs and BMWs are very common as are some Lexus models, but Caddies such as the STS, DTS and Escalade do carry some cachet as well. The new ML class is rarely seen here, I suspect this is related to the poor quality of the first one. The popularity of Cadillacs and the newer Chrysler/Dodge vehicles shows that there are people out there who want to buy an American car if the design and performance is up to par. This may not apply to all parts of the country because some areas are so style conscious that they dare not pick a vehicle that their neighbors wouldnt drive, but it is true here. The 300 (which I'm not crazy about) is a huge hit here and there is no way that a Maxima, Avalon, or even ES330 would impress people as much as a 300C at this point in time. The Maxima is such old news here that it wouldn't even get a second look.
The other thing to remember is that the youth determine what is going to be hot in the future. No young people I know want an ES330 or LS430. The only lexus models that get any buzz amongst people I know are the GS and the SC and both of those cars are a non factor in terms of sales. Audis, VWs and BMWs are rarely mentioned or recogmized with the exception of the 7 series. No one I know aspires to own or can even identify an A8 or A6. The same thing is played out in music videos, TV shows and movies. You see Hummers, Escalades, XLRs, 300s, Magnums, Vettes on TV right alongside Bentleys, 745s and S500s. This is a sign of what is attracting the attention of young people today, the same people who will be buyers in the future. Now most snobbish import owners would scoff at the notion that pop culture advertising means anything because only underpriveleged urban youths watch videos and they cant buy the cars anyway. I beg to differ, because no one would have said that 10 years ago when the tastes of rappers (MBs, Range Rovers, BMWs) lined up with that of the yuppie elite. Things are different now and it may take a while for the effects to be felt, but larger trends are often started by videos and other entertainment programming. I can't tell you the last time I saw a Lexus in a video and the reason for that is that Lexus makes Buicks with nicer interiors and their dull styling can't excite anyone under 40. In 10 years I wouldnt be surprised if Lexus' customer base is about as old and stale as that of Buick or Caddy's customers 5 years back.
1487 I actually agree with your post. As a big Audi fan I went in to a local dealership to offer the same suggestions. Get an A8 in a rapp/rock video. Get a spokesperson from the Rockets, or Texans to be the spokesperson for the dealership and make sure they are on the radio talking about what they drive. Marketing to the next generation is the best strategy IMO. Excellent post 1487.
In fact I am a little surprised that nobody on this forum talks about leasing. I remember that Leasing was very popular in late 1990's and American car companies leased many new cars. I had a 1997 Ford Expedition that I leased for 2 years at about $290 per month. Yes a $28,000 car for $290 per month with no money down for 24 months. That was the best lease deal I ever had.
The last time I checked it was fairly expensive to lease a new American car. Poor resale values on American cars killed leasing on them. You can still get a good lease rate on Honda and Toyota. I wonder what percent of new Hondas and Toyotas are leased
Back in the 90's there were many many more leases than now for the same reason that you leased yours. The residuals were artificially high. some $21000 Camry's had $16000 36 mo residuals. However from 98-2000 all these 'came home to roost' so to speak and all the financing companies, all of them, were getting killed on the guaranteed values versus the actual market values. Most of the time it was $3-5000 on each vehicle, Toyotas included.
In Aug 2000 many leasing companies either got out of leasing entirely or in the case of TMCC and GMAC they reduced the residuals to more realistic numbers. In the above case iso a $16000 Residual it became $12900.
The result is like in your case customers who loved the vehicle and the payments of their '90's lease came back to do it again and found that instead of 'renting' $5000 of the vehicle they were renting $9000 of the vehicle. The lease payment just about doubled.
Then interest rates started plummetting, housing equities went through the roof and people just wrote checks for the entire amount off their tax-deductible H/E loan. Not many Toyotas are leased now.
Both the 90's Prism and the same year Corolla were the same vehicle produced at the joint venture plant in Fremont, CA call NUMMI. It is the present home of the Matrix ( T ) and Vibe ( P ) which also are the same vehicle.
Here is another of the weird points of this program. Toyota gives the Corolla/Matrix a 5 yr/60K Powertrain Warranty. The Prism/Vibe only get the GM 3/36K PT warranty. Duhhh. Corporate decision.
people just wrote checks for the entire amount off their tax-deductible H/E loan.
Brother, just because you use a home equity line of crdit to pay for something doesn't make it tax deductible. Unless you don't fear the LONG arm of the IRS.
Also leasing an American car would require a huge down payment now that these fire sales have dcimated resale values of Fords and GMs.
As has been stated here by many posters, yourself included, most young people grow up to be.. their parents. Family experiences have been repeated over and over again in this and similar forums so it seems it leaves a lasting impression on the young, both positive and negative.
That being said when the current Gen X / Y boom hit's its prime economic stride in 5-10 years are they going to go to Snoop's 300 or what served their own family well when they were young. I think the latter. The 90's may have formed the opinions of millions of buyers already.
I understand that very well but try to explain it to a 'suddenly cash flush' buyer who just wants the vehicle in front of them. I dont argue or try to be the tax advisor.
Well to put a finer point on it. If a vehicle is produced in Lansing and sold in Toledo the delivery charge is the same as if it were sold in Miami. But all companies are like that. The costs are averaged over the whole fleet.
However if Toyota and Honda which are non-union are able to situate themselves near the center of the main East/West rail axis in the US then they have the opportunity to ship more vehicles by rail which is cheaper than by motor transport. Only the local delivery is done by motor transport.
If GM, being union, is required to ship vehicles via the Teamsters up to a certain distance, say the Lansing to St Louis radius, and can use rail only when deliveries are outside this radius GM's total costs will be more and therefore the average will also.
Brother, just because you use a home equity line of crdit to pay for something doesn't make it tax deductible. Unless you don't fear the LONG arm of the IRS.
Actually interest on the first $100,000.00 of a home equity loan is tax deductible in all cases.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Very good post and you are exactly, and I mean exactly, correct in your assumptions. Regarding people growing up to be similar to their parents: you are right. I went through a German phase owning a 1978 BMW 635 and a 1988 325IS. I had a 300z in 1993. All of a sudden, I start buying GM. All my family ever bought starting in the 50's were GM (Oldsmobile) and they continue to purchase these products, now Buick since Olds was discontinued . With all those years of good reliabilityrecords, I wake up one day and I am driving GM and a big fan. Maybe I saw the light!!! Mirror, mirror on the wall, you are your parents afterall!!!
A buddy in college had a Prizm. solid, quick, fun car. Another friend had a corolla and the two cars drove quite differently.
Still anytime someone in the late 90s to early 00s asked about used cars on the cheap i always pointed them toward the Prizm. Great value. A used one usually ran 2-3k cheaper than a Toyota.
I live in Philly and there is no connection to the Detriot auto industry here but Cadillacs are everywhere. Even the SRX is well represented in these parts which is surprising because it hasnt sold that well. MBs and BMWs are very common as are some Lexus models, but Caddies such as the STS, DTS and Escalade do carry some cachet as well.
I was raised on the west coast and even though my parents bought american they passed on and certainly the community did too, that only poor people, trailer types, hill people, and the newly rich up from poverty sought out Caddy, Lincoln and Chrysler.
The 300 (which I'm not crazy about) is a huge hit here and there is no way that a Maxima, Avalon, or even ES330 would impress people as much as a 300C at this point in time.
None of those cars impress anyone in San Diego. Add in any BMW (Z8 maybe gets a nod), MB (SLR maybe but not likely), Audi, Porsche, etc. To get a thumbs up or a look with a car it better be something like a Ferrari, Lotus, Aston, Lambo, Bugatti.
The same thing is played out in music videos, TV shows and movies. You see Hummers, Escalades, XLRs, 300s, Magnums, Vettes on TV right alongside Bentleys, 745s and S500s.
That goes back to nouveau riche. Poor moving up generally move to american "luxury" cars for some reason.
I can't tell you the last time I saw a Lexus in a video and the reason for that is that Lexus makes Buicks with nicer interiors and their dull styling can't excite anyone under 40. In 10 years I wouldnt be surprised if Lexus' customer base is about as old and stale as that of Buick or Caddy's customers 5 years back.
Agree there but then again I never see videos. Lexus was never had a cool edge and probably never will. Just like all of toyota its base age keeps going up, up, up.
To be frank, I don't know any upwardly mobile professional that looks at american cars. Ever. My peer group - friends and college friends - drive japanese and european cars. American cars don't make a blip on the radar as most people i know buy for perceived reliability (japanese) or fun (european). No matter the stats, no matter the marketing or the CR press releases, American car companies make vehicles we get stuck driving when we get rentals.
I could not agree with you more. Here in Atlanta the main place where you see GM cars is in a Wal-Mart parking lot, which is were the lower income people shop. You also see many Mexican immigrants driving GM cars. To me that kills a GM car right there because it has a cheap image. Sorry don't mean to offend anybody, its just the facts. Its like in LA mainly Mexican male drivers used to drive Ford Thunderbirds. I'm sure you know what I am talking about.
" I don't care if a V-series is packing 1000 horsepower through a 6-speed gearbox and will run 12 second quarters, if it shares the same showroom floor with a Grandpa Deville sporting wire hubcaps, a Landau roof and curb-feelers..."
You've been away for a very long time. The last time a new Cadillac came with wire wheelcovers was 1993. Landau roofs, curb feelers, and such are aftermarket garbage inflicted on these cars by the dealers, not GM. Fortunately, my Cadillac dealer has enough taste not to carry this self-destructive add-on junk.
..were here just talking about cars, I was out actually driving them. I'm off work for the holidays and decided to check out the Cadillac DTS and the Buick Lucerne.
The Cadillac DTS is awesome both inside and out. It's funny how much difference a little facelift can make. The car actually has a genuine METAL grille! Hallelujah! The interior design is a quantum leap over the older car. Attention to detail is everywhere. Even the plain jane DTS makes my current Seville STS seem spartan. The car comes standard with 17" rims with 18" rims on the upper series. Prices are as low as $41,900 to about $55,000 fully loaded. It's very reasonable. They were selling well too! Two DTS were delivered when I was there. If I decided to go for broke - it would've been three! Make mine Crimson Pearl with Cashmere Tuscany leather! Despite a 25 hp deficit to my 300hp Seville STS, there didn't seem to be any noticible lack of power. The car rode smoothly and quietly.
The next car I looked at was a Buick Lucerne CXS. This car is similar to the DTS is size, but reminds me of a larger version of my girlfriend's awesome LaCrosse - a good thing! This car comes with a similar 275 hp Northstar and rides 18" chromed rims shod with Continental tires. You get almost everything you do in the DTS for a top price of $38K - extremely reasonable for all you get. Real world prices are certain to be lower.
Heck, if I wasn't so happy with my 2002 Seville STS, I'd have bought either car in a New York second!
Higher end stuff I've driven or have ridden in friends' cars. But the rentals are Volvos, Mercedes, Lincolns, Mustangs, trucks, minivans, etc. I, or my driver, often have to take whatever's available, whether it be a Neon, Tahoe or Towncar.
I think that Detroit cars are defined by one simple thing: NASCAR. Now if you like NASCAR, then you probably like and drive domestic cars. If you think that NASCAR is a joke like World Wrestling Federation, then you probably also think that the sponsors of NASCAR are a joke. I mean what would people think if NIKE would sponsor WWF wrestlers.
It would be interesting to conduct a survey to see if I am right. The question is do you like NASCAR and do you drive a domestic car.
I think that this association with NASCAR is very dangerous to Detroit. NASCAR is not about advance technology or innovation, its all about close racing. This means that NASCAR cars are still OHV V8 carbureted cars driving a solid rear axle. Its not like NASCAR can compare with F1. Now what image does this give to domestic cars?
The last time a new Cadillac came with wire wheelcovers was 1993. Landau roofs, curb feelers, and such are aftermarket garbage inflicted on these cars by the dealers, not GM.
I see a lot of current Caddys with white-walls and landau roofs. Sometimes they even have wire wheel covers. Are you insulting the tastes of these lifelong GM owners of these cars? Aren't they the style leaders? Curb feelers??
"It would be interesting to conduct a survey to see if I am right. The question is do you like NASCAR and do you drive a domestic car".
My wife and I are NASCAR fans. To start your survey I will list our cars. 2003 Toyota Avalon XLS 2004 Toyota 4Runner Limited 2005 Toyota Solara SLE Convertible 2003 Ford Van
The Avalon will be traded in next week on a 2006 Lexus RX330 so we will still have 3 Toyota's and 1 Ford. I will not list all the reasons I will not buy domestic but in short, our Toyota's never break and hold high resale value. The Avalon and Solara were made in Kentucky. And if Toyota made a full size van I would not have a Ford!!
Maybe someday I will consider a domestic but they will have to equal Toyota/Lexus quality.
Its not like NASCAR can compare with F1. Now what image does this give to domestic cars?
==End Quote==
Well, you are right, the two have not, do not and will never compare. So ? What image does it give? Cars with fenders, I guess.
We all, well most people, miss the old days of NASCAR. Those days of driving on the track anything close to what is driven on the street are long gone, never to return.
Personally, more GT class - Grand Am-- American Le Man and other road track racing being supported by the fans in USA would be a wonderful thing. Ford is racing the Mustang.
If people like NASCAR more, so be it, its a free country. It is kinda entertaining in some ways.
I ordered a 2006 Mustang in August, and from what I understand, it JUST got its serial number. Maybe, at best, I will get it smack dab in the middle of winter advisory month. Could someone please explain why Ford is cutting back on manufacturing jobs while there is a back order six months (plus) on the Ford Mustang - - and who knows about the others? This is the first American car I've purchased, and I'm so aggravated that I'm seeing the new Mazda RX-8 driving around with "Mazda Direct" tags - and I can't get my Mustang to save my life. Why?">
But who the heck watches F-1 except for a few diehard fans? I have one good friend who watches F-1 on the Speed Channel and even gets up early on a Sunday morning to watch an event.
I've kind of lost interest in NASCAR since Dale Earnhardt Sr. died. About the only thing Chevy, Ford, or Dodge on NASCAR racers is the engine block. I miss the days when Bobby Allison used to race Buicks and Harry Gant raced the Skoal Bandit Olds. The Grand National/GNX at least bore SOME resemblance to the NASCAR racers.
"Heck, if I wasn't so happy with my 2002 Seville STS, I'd have bought either car in a New York second!"
If you like the '02 Seville, then I'm sure you must love Cadillac's new stuff.
But it shows that your preferences are pretty different from many people's. The only way to save GM is if you manage to convert more drivers to your ways...
This alone will get people to buy American cars. 300, Magnum, Mustang, Corvette, Escalade. The cool looking cars sell just fine. The weird ones with no brand identity do not. BMWs and Mercedes are instantly recognizable. Americans tend to completely redesign themselves every few years, so you don't know what the hell it is you're looking at, and have no attraction to it unless it happens to be a "hit".
Toyota and Honda seem to be the exception to this, they don't have a real strong style statement, but their reputation for quality, economy, and resale makes up for it. I think Mazda and Nissan have done an excellent job of designing their own unique character into all their vehicles, which has made up for what they lack in perceived quality compared to Honda and Toyota.
The FACT is that all cars on the road today are pretty good quality. Americans are just as good as the imports, at least as far as the newest ones go. There are a few lemons, but by and large, American cars suffer from a perception of poor quality that is no longer deserved. If the Chrysler 300 was ugly, people would claim not to buy it because it was ugly, and because it was an unreliable domestic. Because it does look cool, people do buy it, even the entry model with the weak engine. The Ford 500 engine is superior to the base Chrysler 300. So why are base 300's selling well? Because people want to get one cheap and put it on dubs, even if they can't afford the HEMI. Hell, they'd buy it with a 4-cylinder if it was offered. If the Ford 500 looked a little flashier, people would be extolling the virtues of the more than adequate V6.
In addition to an interesting exterior, Americans need a comfortable, quality interior. Exterior is most important though. People these days don't know much about mechanicals. But if the parts that you touch and see (and are seen IN) are good, they could sell any engine at all.
In summary - if it looks good, people will buy it, and then they will know that the poor quality of the 80's is gone. It all starts with looking good.
Comments
As I recall, in the mid/late 80's the Chevy Prism and Toyota Corolla were the same car, but the Chevy always used to get worse reviews!
Were they EXACTLY the same? I sat in a mid-90s Prizm that had an uglier center console than my family's '92 Corolla. Funny thing is that I saw the same ugly center console in a C5 Corvette, but that's beside the point.
If they were the same, then the possible explanations for the different reviews are: 1) dealer service, 2) resale value, 3) reputation.
The first two have real effects on the consumer. The third (which is replaced by the word "perception" if you're a GM fan) is real to a great many people. Look at the treads bashing on Kia... well, Geo wasn't much better at the time. The Corolla had the venerable Camry as a stablemate, and the Prizm had... the Metro. It was unjust, but that was a bad thing for the Prizm.
I haven't heard much on the exploding intakes, but it happened to a friend of mine's grandmother's LeSabre. From the description I got, they were lucky the car wasn't in the garage or it might have burned the house down.
All is well now and the car has something like 60k on it. It's just plain basic transportation, nothing special. So far its been pretty reliable.
Yes, Quality wise Caddy is in the same league as the Germans, but its only because the Germans have fallen so far in Quality. At least its easy to understand why the German quality (Mercedes) has fallen so much. They have introduced so much technology in a short period of time. That lead to many problems.
One thing that you have to keep in mind is that most German luxury cars are leased. I think that something like 50% of all S-class Mercedes and 745 BMWs are leased. There are very good tax reasons for leasing luxury cars. The car is kept by the owner while it is still under warrantee. Germans also include free maintenance with their cars. So break downs don't really cost you any money. Its just a hassle to take the car to dealer all of the time.
I don't know what percent of Cadillacs are leased, but I would bet that it cost about the same to lease a more expensive BMW or Mercedes as Cadillac just because of poor resale values of Cadillacs.
In fact I am a little surprised that nobody on this forum talks about leasing. I remember that Leasing was very popular in late 1990's and American car companies leased many new cars. I had a 1997 Ford Expedition that I leased for 2 years at about $290 per month. Yes a $28,000 car for $290 per month with no money down for 24 months. That was the best lease deal I ever had.
The last time I checked it was fairly expensive to lease a new American car. Poor resale values on American cars killed leasing on them. You can still get a good lease rate on Honda and Toyota. I wonder what percent of new Hondas and Toyotas are leased.
The other point is that this speaks of the overall waist in the systems of Domestic companies. If it costs 30% more to ship a GM car then a Toyota, then maybe GM also pays 30% more to ship car parts from suppliers to the car plant. All of these "hidden costs" show up in the price of the car.
That is just another reason why GM and Ford cannot and never will build a car as good as Toyota or Honda and sell it for the same amount. Its just not possible for them. Look, they can't even figure out how to ship a car from Detroit for the same money as Honda can ship a car from Alabama. And you want them to actually Build a car as good in Detroit.
In the late 80's they were exactly the same car built on the same assembly line. I don't know about different model years. Even Consumer Reports said that they were the same car.
Well right off the bat you don't know that can. You are paying what the manufacturer charges to ship the car to the dealer, not what the manufacturer or dealer pays to have it shipped.
Honda and Toyota could be discounting that shipping cost which means that they may or may not be tacking it on to the MSRP.
On the other hand GM and Ford could be adding to the cost of the shipping as a profit center.
We just don't know.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Resale value, or the prestige of not being the Metro's big brother, maybe?
Cadillac may have better reliability than Mercedes, but they certainly don't have the quality. There is a big difference between the two that most people on this board don't recognize or care about. Then again, if you compare a MB to a Caddy, apples to apples, the MB will be more $$, thus it should be better in some sort of measurable way and they generally are.
Same with BMW, I just appreciate the way they communicate with the drive when behind the wheel and the turbine smoothness of their powertrains, nothing can compare (IMO). The few times I've had the privilege to drive a BMW in a manor that they were designed to be driven, I've alway come away from the car with a "WOW".
Some may not appreciate the qualities that MB & BMW offer, or even Honda or Toyota. That's fine, It's not different than me saying I don't like the quality (not the same as reliability) offered from GM. Who's right? My guess is both sides. Lemko, can say he would walk before he drove a Camry. And I can say I'd push a Camry, before being caught dead in a '89 Cadillac Broughm (LOL). Just kidding Lemko, I appreciate your passion for Cadillacs and was only making a point.
No, they weren't exactly the same. Apart from the exterior styling cues, the early-90s Prizm didn't get the nicer interior that went in the Corolla, and it was missing the swaybars and other little 'decontents' like that. Underneath, it was still basically a Toyota and thus vastly superior to the contemporary Cavalier.
And there we have it. GM starts with a 'great' product and it ends up being merely 'good'. Which is fine... if there isn't a 'great' product out there. Little things like swaybars and interior bits are enough to change a customer's mind!
I laugh at people on here who talk about their home areas and pretend that what goes on there in terms of auot purchases is gospel. As best I can tell, new money areas like he west coast and the "new" south are much more focused on import luxury brands. I live in Philly and there is no connection to the Detriot auto industry here but Cadillacs are everywhere. Even the SRX is well represented in these parts which is surprising because it hasnt sold that well. MBs and BMWs are very common as are some Lexus models, but Caddies such as the STS, DTS and Escalade do carry some cachet as well. The new ML class is rarely seen here, I suspect this is related to the poor quality of the first one. The popularity of Cadillacs and the newer Chrysler/Dodge vehicles shows that there are people out there who want to buy an American car if the design and performance is up to par. This may not apply to all parts of the country because some areas are so style conscious that they dare not pick a vehicle that their neighbors wouldnt drive, but it is true here. The 300 (which I'm not crazy about) is a huge hit here and there is no way that a Maxima, Avalon, or even ES330 would impress people as much as a 300C at this point in time. The Maxima is such old news here that it wouldn't even get a second look.
The other thing to remember is that the youth determine what is going to be hot in the future. No young people I know want an ES330 or LS430. The only lexus models that get any buzz amongst people I know are the GS and the SC and both of those cars are a non factor in terms of sales. Audis, VWs and BMWs are rarely mentioned or recogmized with the exception of the 7 series. No one I know aspires to own or can even identify an A8 or A6. The same thing is played out in music videos, TV shows and movies. You see Hummers, Escalades, XLRs, 300s, Magnums, Vettes on TV right alongside Bentleys, 745s and S500s. This is a sign of what is attracting the attention of young people today, the same people who will be buyers in the future. Now most snobbish import owners would scoff at the notion that pop culture advertising means anything because only underpriveleged urban youths watch videos and they cant buy the cars anyway. I beg to differ, because no one would have said that 10 years ago when the tastes of rappers (MBs, Range Rovers, BMWs) lined up with that of the yuppie elite. Things are different now and it may take a while for the effects to be felt, but larger trends are often started by videos and other entertainment programming. I can't tell you the last time I saw a Lexus in a video and the reason for that is that Lexus makes Buicks with nicer interiors and their dull styling can't excite anyone under 40. In 10 years I wouldnt be surprised if Lexus' customer base is about as old and stale as that of Buick or Caddy's customers 5 years back.
The last time I checked it was fairly expensive to lease a new American car. Poor resale values on American cars killed leasing on them. You can still get a good lease rate on Honda and Toyota. I wonder what percent of new Hondas and Toyotas are leased
Back in the 90's there were many many more leases than now for the same reason that you leased yours. The residuals were artificially high. some $21000 Camry's had $16000 36 mo residuals. However from 98-2000 all these 'came home to roost' so to speak and all the financing companies, all of them, were getting killed on the guaranteed values versus the actual market values. Most of the time it was $3-5000 on each vehicle, Toyotas included.
In Aug 2000 many leasing companies either got out of leasing entirely or in the case of TMCC and GMAC they reduced the residuals to more realistic numbers. In the above case iso a $16000 Residual it became $12900.
The result is like in your case customers who loved the vehicle and the payments of their '90's lease came back to do it again and found that instead of 'renting' $5000 of the vehicle they were renting $9000 of the vehicle. The lease payment just about doubled.
Then interest rates started plummetting, housing equities went through the roof and people just wrote checks for the entire amount off their tax-deductible H/E loan. Not many Toyotas are leased now.
Here is another of the weird points of this program. Toyota gives the Corolla/Matrix a 5 yr/60K Powertrain Warranty. The Prism/Vibe only get the GM 3/36K PT warranty. Duhhh. Corporate decision.
Brother, just because you use a home equity line of crdit to pay for something doesn't make it tax deductible. Unless you don't fear the LONG arm of the IRS.
Also leasing an American car would require a huge down payment now that these fire sales have dcimated resale values of Fords and GMs.
That being said when the current Gen X / Y boom hit's its prime economic stride in 5-10 years are they going to go to Snoop's 300 or what served their own family well when they were young. I think the latter. The 90's may have formed the opinions of millions of buyers already.
However if Toyota and Honda which are non-union are able to situate themselves near the center of the main East/West rail axis in the US then they have the opportunity to ship more vehicles by rail which is cheaper than by motor transport. Only the local delivery is done by motor transport.
If GM, being union, is required to ship vehicles via the Teamsters up to a certain distance, say the Lansing to St Louis radius, and can use rail only when deliveries are outside this radius GM's total costs will be more and therefore the average will also.
Actually interest on the first $100,000.00 of a home equity loan is tax deductible in all cases.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Still anytime someone in the late 90s to early 00s asked about used cars on the cheap i always pointed them toward the Prizm. Great value. A used one usually ran 2-3k cheaper than a Toyota.
I live in Philly and there is no connection to the Detriot auto industry here but Cadillacs are everywhere. Even the SRX is well represented in these parts which is surprising because it hasnt sold that well. MBs and BMWs are very common as are some Lexus models, but Caddies such as the STS, DTS and Escalade do carry some cachet as well.
I was raised on the west coast and even though my parents bought american they passed on and certainly the community did too, that only poor people, trailer types, hill people, and the newly rich up from poverty sought out Caddy, Lincoln and Chrysler.
The 300 (which I'm not crazy about) is a huge hit here and there is no way that a Maxima, Avalon, or even ES330 would impress people as much as a 300C at this point in time.
None of those cars impress anyone in San Diego. Add in any BMW (Z8 maybe gets a nod), MB (SLR maybe but not likely), Audi, Porsche, etc. To get a thumbs up or a look with a car it better be something like a Ferrari, Lotus, Aston, Lambo, Bugatti.
The same thing is played out in music videos, TV shows and movies. You see Hummers, Escalades, XLRs, 300s, Magnums, Vettes on TV right alongside Bentleys, 745s and S500s.
That goes back to nouveau riche. Poor moving up generally move to american "luxury" cars for some reason.
I can't tell you the last time I saw a Lexus in a video and the reason for that is that Lexus makes Buicks with nicer interiors and their dull styling can't excite anyone under 40. In 10 years I wouldnt be surprised if Lexus' customer base is about as old and stale as that of Buick or Caddy's customers 5 years back.
Agree there but then again I never see videos. Lexus was never had a cool edge and probably never will. Just like all of toyota its base age keeps going up, up, up.
To be frank, I don't know any upwardly mobile professional that looks at american cars. Ever. My peer group - friends and college friends - drive japanese and european cars. American cars don't make a blip on the radar as most people i know buy for perceived reliability (japanese) or fun (european). No matter the stats, no matter the marketing or the CR press releases, American car companies make vehicles we get stuck driving when we get rentals.
You've been away for a very long time. The last time a new Cadillac came with wire wheelcovers was 1993. Landau roofs, curb feelers, and such are aftermarket garbage inflicted on these cars by the dealers, not GM. Fortunately, my Cadillac dealer has enough taste not to carry this self-destructive add-on junk.
When did Pontiac Solstices become avaiable as rentals?
Pontiac has OVER 15,000 ORDERS FOR THE SOLSTICE..
When did Corvette C6 Z06s become available as rentals?
:confuse:
check the link
Brammo Motorsports
"American car companies make vehicles we get stuck driving when we get rentals."
When did mid-engine Ford GTs become available as rentals?
The Cadillac DTS is awesome both inside and out. It's funny how much difference a little facelift can make. The car actually has a genuine METAL grille! Hallelujah! The interior design is a quantum leap over the older car. Attention to detail is everywhere. Even the plain jane DTS makes my current Seville STS seem spartan. The car comes standard with 17" rims with 18" rims on the upper series. Prices are as low as $41,900 to about $55,000 fully loaded. It's very reasonable. They were selling well too! Two DTS were delivered when I was there. If I decided to go for broke - it would've been three! Make mine Crimson Pearl with Cashmere Tuscany leather! Despite a 25 hp deficit to my 300hp Seville STS, there didn't seem to be any noticible lack of power. The car rode smoothly and quietly.
The next car I looked at was a Buick Lucerne CXS. This car is similar to the DTS is size, but reminds me of a larger version of my girlfriend's awesome LaCrosse - a good thing! This car comes with a similar 275 hp Northstar and rides 18" chromed rims shod with Continental tires. You get almost everything you do in the DTS for a top price of $38K - extremely reasonable for all you get. Real world prices are certain to be lower.
Heck, if I wasn't so happy with my 2002 Seville STS, I'd have bought either car in a New York second!
If you have 15 grand you can rent a Ferrari F430 Coupe for a week but you have to pay $2 bucks a mile over 50/day from Beverly Hills Rent a car.
I am sure if you look hard enough you might find Panoz.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
http://www.gothamdreamcars.com/
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It would be interesting to conduct a survey to see if I am right. The question is do you like NASCAR and do you drive a domestic car.
I think that this association with NASCAR is very dangerous to Detroit. NASCAR is not about advance technology or innovation, its all about close racing. This means that NASCAR cars are still OHV V8 carbureted cars driving a solid rear axle. Its not like NASCAR can compare with F1. Now what image does this give to domestic cars?
I see a lot of current Caddys with white-walls and landau roofs. Sometimes they even have wire wheel covers. Are you insulting the tastes of these lifelong GM owners of these cars? Aren't they the style leaders? Curb feelers??
Wouldn’t it make sense that the majority of the $’s owed would be going to unionized workers?
If you have 100 employees and 90 are unionized that makes 10 that are not those 10 will obviously be collecting fewer dollars
My wife and I are NASCAR fans. To start your survey I will list our cars.
2003 Toyota Avalon XLS
2004 Toyota 4Runner Limited
2005 Toyota Solara SLE Convertible
2003 Ford Van
The Avalon will be traded in next week on a 2006 Lexus RX330 so we will still have 3 Toyota's and 1 Ford. I will not list all the reasons I will not buy domestic but in short, our Toyota's never break and hold high resale value.
The Avalon and Solara were made in Kentucky. And if Toyota made a full size van I would not have a Ford!!
Maybe someday I will consider a domestic but they will have to equal Toyota/Lexus quality.
==End Quote==
Well, you are right, the two have not, do not and will never compare. So ? What image does it give? Cars with fenders, I guess.
We all, well most people, miss the old days of NASCAR. Those days of driving on the track anything close to what is driven on the street are long gone, never to return.
Personally, more GT class - Grand Am-- American Le Man and other road track racing being supported by the fans in USA would be a wonderful thing. Ford is racing the Mustang.
If people like NASCAR more, so be it, its a free country.
It is kinda entertaining in some ways.
Loren
I've kind of lost interest in NASCAR since Dale Earnhardt Sr. died. About the only thing Chevy, Ford, or Dodge on NASCAR racers is the engine block. I miss the days when Bobby Allison used to race Buicks and Harry Gant raced the Skoal Bandit Olds. The Grand National/GNX at least bore SOME resemblance to the NASCAR racers.
If you like the '02 Seville, then I'm sure you must love Cadillac's new stuff.
But it shows that your preferences are pretty different from many people's. The only way to save GM is if you manage to convert more drivers to your ways...
This alone will get people to buy American cars. 300, Magnum, Mustang, Corvette, Escalade. The cool looking cars sell just fine. The weird ones with no brand identity do not. BMWs and Mercedes are instantly recognizable. Americans tend to completely redesign themselves every few years, so you don't know what the hell it is you're looking at, and have no attraction to it unless it happens to be a "hit".
Toyota and Honda seem to be the exception to this, they don't have a real strong style statement, but their reputation for quality, economy, and resale makes up for it. I think Mazda and Nissan have done an excellent job of designing their own unique character into all their vehicles, which has made up for what they lack in perceived quality compared to Honda and Toyota.
The FACT is that all cars on the road today are pretty good quality. Americans are just as good as the imports, at least as far as the newest ones go. There are a few lemons, but by and large, American cars suffer from a perception of poor quality that is no longer deserved. If the Chrysler 300 was ugly, people would claim not to buy it because it was ugly, and because it was an unreliable domestic. Because it does look cool, people do buy it, even the entry model with the weak engine. The Ford 500 engine is superior to the base Chrysler 300. So why are base 300's selling well? Because people want to get one cheap and put it on dubs, even if they can't afford the HEMI. Hell, they'd buy it with a 4-cylinder if it was offered. If the Ford 500 looked a little flashier, people would be extolling the virtues of the more than adequate V6.
In addition to an interesting exterior, Americans need a comfortable, quality interior. Exterior is most important though. People these days don't know much about mechanicals. But if the parts that you touch and see (and are seen IN) are good, they could sell any engine at all.
In summary - if it looks good, people will buy it, and then they will know that the poor quality of the 80's is gone. It all starts with looking good.