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Comments
In the 50's and 60's GM had a brand and vehicle for every consumer.
Chevy--Your entry level, practical affordable cars. Exception being the Vette of course.
Pontiac--More performance oriented, but still some good practical offerings slightly upgraded from Chevy.
Olds--Again, as the customer base became more affluent the General was there with an offering.
Buick--Still another step up from Olds to keep up with customers demand for a different class if cars.
Caddy--The car people aspired to own. The car that said "I've arrived" during this time in America.
Now think about what Toyota did in the 70's and 80's.
The hooked customers out of college or newly working with cheap reliable Corolla's
When those customers were ready to step up a bit, the Camry was there.
Start having a family? Here's your mini van.
Finally making it in the world? Don't go to Caddy, Merc or BMW, here's the Lexus brand that still offers the Toyota reliability and affordability in a luxurious package.
Include the success they have had in the small truck and SUV market and you have a marketing case study for success.
Am I wrong in this thinking??
AS for Consumer Reports, I don't see what the big deal is. Think of a car that you have a good idea is unreliable and go look at CUs results. You'll most likely find that car is rated unreliable in CU as well. So they rank a Camry higher than an Impala. The Impala is rated very well too, above the Accord v6. I've driven both (not the 06 Impala) and while neither one is my cup of tea, the Camry is certainly a more refined car, and I can see why people like them (looks aside)
The Lacrosse and Ford 500 are rated higher than the Toyota Avalon too. I don't see why people here are having issues with CU. Maybe the Colorado is rated last in reliability in the small truck category, because it's a POS, not because of CU's and their readers bias.
I looked up my Suburban and the areas on CUs chart that are marked worse than average, are the areas I've had problems with except for the transmission, where CU rated as average, and mine died an untimely death (but those things happen).
You can question their sampling techniques all you want, but I don't believe they have an agenda against GM or for Toyota.
They rate some GM cars well and others bad.
Just look at CUs report on the least satisfying cars. Who can argue that the Sunfire, Cavalier, Ford Windstar, Grand Am, S-10, MB M-Class and Mitsu Galant etc, shouldn't be on this list.
I haven't driven all of those vehicles, but the ones I've been in/driven (S-10, Cavalier, Windstar, Blazer etc) are freakin horrible.
So, the domestics don't have to many on the most Satisfying list. That doesn't mean they are all bad. People have different ideas on what's satisfying.
Lexus had trouble gaining a foothold at first. It was no big secret that these were just luxury Toyotas. But since status wasn't such a big part of the buying decision, and because Japanese cars were so popular, more and more Lexi sold as the years went by, especially the LS. Now that MB has gone notably downhill in reliability, and lots of people have stories to tell their friends about sending their car to the service department AGAIN, Lexus has really taken off in the last four or five years.
And yes, there was always the separate BMW crowd, of which you see plenty around where I live. I think they are very loyal to the brand and never look around at Lexus or MB, although maybe a few have looked to Infiniti in recent years - there are a flood of those G35s on the streets.
No-one would want to be seen in a pre-rebirth Cadillac. That would be a sign of hard times. The only "acceptable" GM vehicle would be the large SUVs, and then only if you have kids. If you don't, you should be in a Lexus RX or a Mercedes ML-class (with the usual sampling of X5 owners thrown in).
Since A&S took over at Cadillac, people have taken a wait and see attitude with Cadillac. It wouldn't be social death or anything to be seen in one now, and I think people have taken the edgy styling as a sign that Cadillac is truly changed. Not that you see a lot of them on the streets here, just one every now and then. I have yet to see an SRX on the street; right now the RX330 and ML350 have that market sewn up around here.
Anyway, your post interested me enough to respond, and I agree there is a WIDE variation in this country geographically as to what is "status", what is acceptable, and what uis unmentionable. However, the battle for the domestics lies not in selling Cadillacs (and ??? at FoMoCo), but rather achieving a large increase in retail non-luxury sales without giving away the farm in the process.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Agree.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Its on my radar, Actually as of right now its at $20.10 and climbing. Its lowest has been around $19.30 it has potential to start going up.
AS for Consumer Reports, I don't see what the big deal is.
Well either they are not very bright, not very honest or biased, pick one. Either way I have seen them rate a good but not best item as the best being tested all the while not even mentioning what everyone else and their brother claims is the top of the line. I have also seen them rate the exact same thing off the exact same assembly line as both very good and very poor, the only difference was the name slapped on it. They lost all credibility with me a long time ago.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Does it mean anything that Kerkorian sold a good fraction of his 10% he held--no matter what tax excuse they gave for selling it off.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Over the summer things were looking pretty sweet though...in July it was trading in the $37-38 range, and I should've sold the rest, but you know the old hindsight is always 20/20 cliche.
Oh well. I watched it steadily whittle away, and finally pulled the trigger in October, selling the remaining 50 shares for $27.48 per share, so basically I lost around $102 there. On the plus side, those 50 shares rode out through two dividend payout cycles, so I made 50 bucks off of them.
And then once the prices had plummeted, I figured I'd take a chance, and snatched up 33 shares at $23.69 per share. So now, at around $20.15 per share I've lost money again, but I'm just gonna let it sit and see what happens, instead of playing around too much and getting burned each time. What's that old saying...Patience is a
virginvirtue?I'm just glad that I didn't get jumpy and nervous with my Google stock. The 12 shares I bought of that basically paid for my LeMans!
Myself I like the bouncers. Buy take a chance, wait, sell when higher, buy take a chance, wait, sell. No big risk-taking.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Consumer Reports: Why does everybody say they are biased? They have reccomended Buicks for a number of years. They reccomend the CTs and STS. They even reccomend the Malibu Maxx. They even said the new Impala and revised Monte plastics in the interior have been improved. Why did Gm have to leave the 1980's rear end treatment in the Monte though? Finally, Cr reccomned the 2000-2005 Impala. I don't see how CR is biased. I think American Car Fans are saying well Cr always says Japanese Cars are good and American Cars bad. I even wonder if American Car Fans even have read CR. I admit I wouldn't base too much on CR's road tests but their reliability ratings I think are helpful.
When did CR ever do that meaning reccomending a car that was made off the same assembly line and the only difference was the badge on it? Can you give me some examples?
Thats true people will buy a Honda because they had good luck with their last Honda and not even research any other cars. When I had a Mazda I used to get made fun of by Honda owners also peoplw who owned a Honda like they would have that look in their eyes look what the heck is a Mazda? Granted I am both a Honda and Mazda fan but I'm just making an honest statement.
"Thats why people will spend $100+ for Nike sneakers when they are no better than a good $30 pair."
Thats true I;m wearing Jordan's now but I only paid 40.00 dollars for them. Lebron James shoes cost like 125.00 dollars when I was looking around in the shoe store and got my Jordan's.
"Thats why people flock to bad movies with overpaid actors who can't act."
There are good and bad actors and actresses.
Sure, they can claim equality or superiority all they want until they are blue in the face, but the only ones they have convinced is themselves. The ones who hold "All that is GM" up on a pedestal over anything else, even when they have never actually owned a German import.
Have they gotten better? Sure. Are they a true Rival to Benz, BMW, or Audi? Sorry, I don't care if a V-series is packing 1000 horsepower through a 6-speed gearbox and will run 12 second quarters, if it shares the same showroom floor with a Grandpa Deville sporting wire hubcaps, a Landau roof and curb-feelers, the idea of Teutonic, Autobahn eating perormance brand gets thrown out the window like a cheap Delco radio. Four speed Autos putting power to the front wheels isn't exactly Pulse racing excitment...
They are not back, even though many would love for you to believe it...
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
BTW, they certainly didn't drive the same. My '87 Golf (with a five speed) felt lighter on its feet than the '83 Horizon I owned ever did. The '83 still relied on a carburetor for fuel delievery.
FWIW, CR had a grudge against the Omni/Horizon anyway, because in testing a 1978, I think the brakes locked up on it, or something happened that they almost wrecked it. Still, I'm not defending the Rabbit, but the Omni/Horizon weren't the most reliable cars in the world. Cheap and easy to fix when they did break, yes. And certainly not the worst small cars out there. But they weren't all that great.
Also, at some point the Omni/Horizon switched engines but I'm getting the details mixed up. At one point I think they sourced something from Peugeot. Around 1985 though, they started offering the 2.2 Mopar engine as an option, and it eventually became standard. They're not bad cars with that unit.
Well the new DTs and CTs has seen success but the STs judging by what I see on the road isn't selling. I don't see many SRX's on the road. Well overall sales are up for the Caddy brand since the inception of the CTS and their average age buyer is down to 54 years old. I think Caddy is doing good but yeah they have a way to go with some of their cars.
"Don't tell a GM diehard that though or you may be called a loser..."
I know they are some GM diehards out there and they swear by GM.
Not entirely true, my neighbor bought a Honda that had to be returned to the dealer for service after less than 5 miles. It has been back to the shop a few times since yet he thinks its a trouble free car and will by another at the drop of a hat. Its not reality its perception in that case. My sister thinks her "got to take it to the dealer once a month" toyota is more trouble free than either my "never been back to the dealer" Hyundai or my sisters "Only went to the dealer once for a free oil change" Chevy. Few people buy reality most buy perception. To be honest if they don't look at any other car they are buying an image.
There are good and bad actors and actresses.
True but tell me why people like Tom cruise and John Trovolta (SP?) who can't act their way out of a wet paper bag make 10+ million a movie?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And there are some that do believe that Caddy is back and in the same league as the Germans. I for one never liked Caddys and would never give them a second look out on the street until the current crop started showing up (the sedans not the stupid truck line). They sure won me over. If it were still the Cadillac of the 70's 80's or 90's I would agree with you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The 97-03 GP was more of a competitor to the 95-99 and 00-03 Nissan Maxima than the Camry and Accord. The Camry and Accord are more mass marketed cars than the GP.
SOmeone wants to tell me I'd be better off buying a domestic because of a forum post... Good luck to them. My experience tells me other wise. It isn't some misguided perception that people like myself have had excellent luck with imports, it's a built up RESPECT and satisfaction that the domestics let get the best of them.
I've mentioned a few examples of how domestics have garnered my interst. But it isn't going to be overnight that I start pointing GM's are as good as my Hondas (Nissans and Toyos) have been. It'll take about oh... maybe 30 years.
The only thing I hated about that generation of GP was the interior. And the rear seat room, or lack of it. While most people don't buy a car like this for a roomy back seat, this is just an inherent design flaw of the W-body in general. And to be fair, I CAN fit in the back of a '95-99 Maxima, so it IS possible to make a car both sporty and roomy!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I live in NJ and like you I see Gm trucks everywhere you but unlike you I do see my share of Caddy's(both pre-CTS and post DTS era.) I also see my share of Buicks as well(some new LaCrosse's and even saw a new Lucrene yesterday.) However I don't see many 06 Impala's and 04+ Malibu's around. As a matter I see more Mazda 3's and 6's than I see new Malibu's and Mazda is just a small niche player. Its strangw why I see lots of Buicks in NJ but at the same time also see my share of pre CTs era Caddy's and Buicks. Here in NJ you see loads of Accord's, Camry, Maxima, Altima's with a little sprinkling of Mazda's and Hyundai's. Kia doesn't sell that good in NJ.
"I am sorry but there are many places like that in America. Every time I travel to Midwest, I am also surprised by the number of American cars on the road. When you visit south, you will be surprised that people just don't drive American cars. They have the wrong image here. Around here driving American car means that you are poor or have no taste. Its that simple."
Thats intersesting you talk about the South. When I go through Virgina sometimes in the area's where there are area's mostly of farmland you see Domestic Big 3 cars parked in their driveways.
"They have the wrong image here. Around here driving American car means that you are poor or have no taste. Its that simple."
I don't think its about taste I just think its about having the right product. I mean Chrysler in terms of passenger cars before the 300 came out really didn't have a prescence in NJ well now Chrysler does. You see alot of 300's and some Chargers around. In NJ Caddy isn't frowned upon the way it is in the South. I see my share of CTS's.
Offense taken since I do believe I was called, at best meaningless, and at worst a liar. I and my words are just as good as anyone else's, including you, on this or any forum. Good day.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Because people usually see pay to see movie stars not actors.
It takes a while for people's perception to change. However, it will eventually. You can only get hit in the head so many times before it begins to hurt. That is why buyers originally switched from American vehicles, but may also be why they switch back. I have a 1999 Intrepid purchased new that has been in for repairs four times. New windshield washer reservoir and window winder regulator under warranty and new trans sensor and front wheel bearing out of warranty. My cost about $450. This has been a great car that I love to drive, look great and gets great gas mileage. However, I just bought a Honda minivan because it was the only one that offered what I wanted. I hope that it will be as trouble free as my Intrepid!
They made the mistake that most big companies make, they "settled" and relied on Americans being loyal to their brand. They stopped being innovative and sat back and watched the profits from their SUVs and Pickup roll in during the 90's. Now you have high gas prices and they are scrambling to put out a car that can compete with Toyota, Honda, Nissan and now Hyundai (I still find this hard to believe but give them credit). They stopped being hungry and started making dumb, reactionary management decisions that are killing them now. Microsoft is a great example of a company that is always looking forward (which is why everyone hates them).
I've stated this before, GM (and Ford) must find a way to sell their cars and trucks without the use of rebates. The plant closing and layoffs will get them part of the way there but they need to build cars that Americans WANT to buy. The fact that the only way they cleared inventory this year is by offering "Employee Pricing" should scare every senior level manager and Board of Dirctor in GM. This means two things, the public will only buy what you are producing for thousands less then the competition and the "perception" that your product is not as good as your competition is reality. Americans vote with their pocketbook.
Gm and Ford need to design cars to be the leader of their segments and not to design them based on what is in the leftover parts bin (Ford 500) or based on what their accountants say. And you wonder why you are always playing "catch up".
Stop squeezing the profits from your suppliers and design parts to last. Honda and Toyota protect their suppliers and think of them as partners.
Americans want to know their money will last. The depreciaton of Ford and GM cars is ridiculous. Quick example: Bought a new 2001 Malibu LS; traded it in Dec. 2003 with 32k miles; stilled owed $9100, trade value $6000; lost 60% of its value in two and half years. If quality and duration is designed into the vehicle at the start, you can charge more upfront and you won't have as many silly recalls (or TSBs later) and it helps depreciation (dumping the vehicles to the car rental doesn't help; wasn't only the malibu classic suppose to be sold to the car rental companies????).
The Fusion looks promising but Ford does not have a good track record with launching new vehicles. They killed the Focus (which is still one of the top 2 small cars) with 9 recalls in the first two years. No wonder people buy Corollas and Civics. The Aura is a little too late for Saturn (man they destroyed that company). Pontiac = performance, please!
The solution is not hard but as someone pointed out before, it will take time. Rome was not built in a day. the question is do either one of these companies have the resources to last another couple of years like this one.
Looks like from 1978-83, it used a Volkswagen 1.7 liter engines - an enlarged version of Volkswagen's Golf engine, modified for Chrysler, it produced 75 horsepower and 90 lb-ft of torque, competitive for that time; Rabbits (US Golfs) were sold with lower horsepower. Chrysler reportedly had a five-year contract for these engines, which were used until mid-1983. (quoted from Allpar.com)
1983: The 1.7 is replaced midyear with the 1.6 liter Simca/Peugeot engine, which produces a nearly-identical 62 hp @ 4,800 rpm, 86 lb-ft @ 3,200 rm (in 1983, the 1.7 was down to a rated 63 hp @ 4,800 rpm, 83 lb-ft @ 2,400 rpm). This engine would be phased out after a relatively brief time in favor of the 2.2, which ended up at 93 horsepower and 122 lb-ft; in 1984, the 1.6 was only available with a manual transmission, and by 1987, the only engine was the 2.2, at 96 horsepower.
I did an extensive search for a used Impala last month, just curious. I couldn't find even ONE newer than 1970, except for plastic-wheeled fleet specials on Enterprise's and Hertz's websites. Domestic cars just aren't driven around here.
But it is true that CR gives rebadge clones of the same model widely different ratings. One example of that was the old Geo Prizm/Toyota Corolla, which was literally a rebadge of a Corolla turned into a GM car, and the GM car never got good reviews while the Corolla was always a best pick or whatever.
andre: Gawd no - the '97 "Cladding explosion" GP??? Noooooooooooooo....
:-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Perception like I sais before is worth something about people buying Honda's because they had good luck with one. But also, again the right product. Looks at Mazda amd Nissan in the mid to late 90's. Those 2 companies almost when out of business trying to be Toyota. look at Caddy they alomost died. If not for the CTs they woul be dead. I don't know Honda and Toyota have it from a perception standpoint. Although Toyota has more of a good perception than Honda does. The 03 accord got blasted for its Buick stlying and sales went down for the Accord each year(03-05)that they had the Buick back end on it.
That's an insult. Buicks have better styling than that rear.
Add to the Accord problems all the pops in the flex in the unibody, rattles, steering leads, brake wear problems, and rought ride ,etc.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Here is a basic Catch22 situation for the shrinking volumes at domestic dealerships. It's occuring at the non-domestic dealerships as well but the volume often is growing relatively at these stores.
By dealerships you likely mean sales staff. When both the volume and the price are shrinking there is little or no profit in doing business on the retail side. Consider that not only are GM/Ford losing big money each quarter but each salesperson too is doing business on a 'mini' basis. On new vehicles a salesperson might make $50-100 per unit delivered. Do the math on this and you can see why there isnt a lot of love lost for the Employee Disc plan or Red Tag Sale.
In order to make a minimum decent living of say $40-50K annually a salesperson has to retail 30-40 new vehicles a month @ $100 per... But volume is shrinking... Traditionally the average per salesperson throughout the country is 8 units per month times $100 =____ .
Its a fact of life so those involved have to deal with it. But it is likely the future of the new auto business as well. Possibly a new paradigm is needed.
Even with the same engine and transmission, there are little details that are up to the individual manufacturers... things like motor mounts. My '92 Nissan Sentra has a great engine. Best 1.6L engine ever. But on my car they used some pretty bad motor mounts. So if I were a reviewer, the driveline would get a bad review!
I've seen a lot of Big 3 cars that were good on paper. Great performance numbers, dimensional numbers, value... but they dropped the ball on something small. That's how they get bad engine refinement scores with good engines. Or a decent interior with an ugly center console (this happened on the Prizm) or an uncomfortable stalk.
Sweat the small stuff. Toyota does... so I really enjoyed my Tercel even though it wasn't a good car (especially the engine). One of my first thoughts when I got my Sentra: "wait... you couldn't see any sign of screws on the Tercel's door panels... this Sentra feels cheap and industrial."
Hondas also tend to be cars that you can jump into and feel comfortable right away. I bet this earns them A LOT of customers who are just stopping by for a test drive and are a little nervous or uncomfortable buying cars.
I was not calling you, as a person, a liar. I was saying that what you posted is opposite of the experiences I have found. That is what I meant when I said no offense.
Take it however you want. I guess.
I'm open to being educated by someone who is actually in the field. The most expensive way to truck anything is by air ( OK that's out ) but 2nd most expensive is by motor vehicle;i.e. transport truck. Third is via rail and least expensive generally is by barge on the river system ( also not too likely ).
From all of our personal experiences we've probably seen most vehicles delivered by transport trucks. If the domestic mills have been 'required'
It may not by only the UAW which has deep hooks into the pricing of the Big 2 +C
"Add to the Accord problems all the pops in the flex in the unibody, rattles, steering leads, brake wear problems, and rought ride ,etc."
Um, add to the exploding intake manifolds, busted sunshells, snapping A-arms, O2 sensors, on Garbage Motors products...
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/direct/view/.ef2ae4b/267
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Too bad my perception of GM's mediocrity has NOTHING to do with the above forums...
But in the 14 years that I have been driving, and as an avid car fan, I wouldn't blame non domestics for the current situation. It has been happening for as long as I have been driving. The Automotive world is growing, changing, adapting. Some adapting faster (Japan inc.), some slower (Detroit Inc.). I think with the competition out there, nobody has a chance to relax and therefore a case of "Keep up or get out of the way". It's finally catching up with domestic brands and they are starting to put in the efforts necessary to keep up. And now with the Koreans and soon the Chinese in the mix, competition is going to be even tighter. Gonna take more than a fancy face and giant motor to sell a car...
We are going to be seeing some of the best quality products coming from everyone, I predict. Now its about other aspects of the vehicles (safety, performance, driver involvment, technology advancment) that are going to show who leads and who follows.
Do something dramatic. Build some good press and positive feelings toward the industry. Announce that all Trucks and SUV's will be diesel within 5 years thereby improving FE by 30+% and saving the country nearly a Billion gallons of fuel a year.
Present situation: (4,000,000 trucks/SUV's annual build ?)
18.0 mpg avg (?) x 15000 mi/yr = 3.4 Billion gal/yr
23.5 mpg avg x 15000 mi/yr = 2.6 Billion gal/yr
The Big 2 +C know trucks, capitalize on it... and do it before the others do.