Chevy is the best selling brand in the United States.
Chevy is the best at losing money and still being the biggest seller in the United States. Who cares if they sold more cars, when they lost more money. I think it's clear that lunatics are running the asylum, and 1487 is the PR director.
If you define "just as good" as meaning similar options and features, then the Grand Caravan is in the ballpark. But in fit, finish and quality of interior materials, it isn't even close to the Odyssey and Sienna IMHO.
They simply need new cars. Cobalt is going to be owned by Civic - it is game over. The Civic Si is easily going to impress more people than is the Cobalt SS, for example. One on one, American models will lose. Now, and good zig-zag move to dodge a blow, with a good solid punch getting in is the Mustang, which side steps and squarely scores one for Ford. Japan has no answer to this one. So what happened to the real Impala, Malibu, or what could have been a winner, the modern day, high tech Camaro inspired cars?
The Solstice is a beauty - good work GM... well it looks good, time will tell how the quality is. It may not out drive the Miata, but it looks fantastic. I take it not much of a trunk, but who cares, at least style returns as a starting point -- hope, some hope still lingers at GM !
As for the new Cadillac line: The new DTS looks better than the previous, yet the last DeVille, which looked like a DeVille DTS, as in classy, was the late 1990's caddy. Not to say the new DTS is not an major improvement over last year.
The CTS is stylish, with its new edgy look and better handling than expected, though overpriced.
The STS now looks like a stretched CTS, which in its price range seems like not much of a deal. I'd take a BMW or Lexus.
The Eldorado was an excellent design, style wise. Too bad it is gone.
An Escalade is an SUV. Never could see what all the fuss was about and why anyone payed so much for one. Chevy and GMC have similar models. If I owned a ranch, and have cash to burn I would consider one.... or maybe not. BMW and Acura looks sharper. If I need an SUV with HP for the track, I'll go with the Porsche.
The traditional Euro type car was small, nimble body with small, frugal engine. As Europeans got wealthy, many German cars and Italian sports cars evolve into powerful beasts, but M5 and Enzo are still typically Euro. Because of limited landspace, the Japanese adopted Euro, rather than Yankee, car culture.
The traditional Yankee type car was opulent, big body with slow revving big V8. For many years, v8 Impala was the best selling family sedan, sort of the Camcorder of its day! The modern evolution of the Yankee car culture was the full size pickup truck and SUV.
It's no accident that currently the most successful big 3 cars, Corvette, Mustang and 300C, are still proudly Yankee type cars. Trouble is that you can't sell many of those cars, at least not enough to survive on. How many V8 Impalas can Chevy sell? Not in the same ballpark as I4 Accords! As big a hit as 300C is, its numbers pale in comparison with I4 Camry!
It was no accident that big 3 reached record profitability when the big trucks and suv's took over the market in the 90's. When they receded, big 3 problems started to multiply.
The reality is, even in the US, most cars sold today are Euro type. But the big 3 are just not good at making those cars. Name an outstanding Detroit-made I4 or small car in history! The most successful small cars to carry an American name are Focus and Mondeo, but those were really designed and engineered in Germany.
I don't know what comes first. Is it because the big 3 don't like Euro cars that they don't make them well? Or is it because they don't make them well that they don't like them?
An encouraging sign is that new Fusion seems to be the very best attempt a big 3 company has ever made at an Euro type car, and a competitive one as well. Because, like it or not, the name of the game is small Euro cars, not Yankee cars. But it got to be a whole revolution, not just a solitary shot across the bow!
Face it Detroit crowd. Toyota and Lexus are the New Buick and Cadillac. I remember when Buick was called a Doctor's car. Guess what is the new doctor's car? Yes your guess is correct, its Lexus. Most people like to buy Lexus ES330 because they look nice, and they are relatively cheap to own.
What choice do you have if you want to buy a near luxury car. Yea, you can buy a Cadillac Deville. But you will loose your shirt in the first year of ownership. Take a look at WWW.EBAYMOTORS.COM for examples. A Cadillac DeVille will loose about $26k from new sticker price in ONE YEAR. YES a Cadillac Deville that cost $46K new can be purchased for $20K after one year. Who can afford that type loss in one year? Why would anybody loose that kind of money. That is just plain stupid. If you want a nice Cadillac, buy a used one. Its a great deal.
But what if you what to buy a new car. What choice do you have? If you what to buy a NEW car and not loose your shirt, you buy a Lexus. They keep their value. Lets check out EBAYMOTORS for some examples. A new Lexus ES330 cost about $33K after all discounts. A one year old ES300 can be purchased for about $26K. This means that driving a Lexus for one year will cost you $7,000 vs $20,000 for a Cadillac DeVille.
You know why rich people are rich? Its because they don't waist their money. That is how they got rich and why they are still rich. That is why well to do people buy Lexus. Its cheaper to drive then Domestics and you look smart driving it.
What is funny about the whole thing is that GM's strategy was always correct. Its just that Toyota managed to take GM's strategy and build better cars that fit that vision better. To me Toyota and Lexus are the new Buicks and Cadillacs. Today Lexus is the doctor's car. Buick somehow managed to move from Doctor's car to retired person's car. What is actually funny is that my retired mother was looking for a new car. She asked me to buy her a new car. We went to a Buick dealer and she told me that Buick looks like car for dead people and she is not dead yet.
Yes my mother who is retired refused to drive a Buick. I ended up buying a Ford Crown Victoria for her. She liked the car and she liked the fact that people go out of her way on highway because everybody though that she was cop. I think my mother's next car will be a Porsche. It will not be a Buick for sure.
Just what I have been getting at, diesels. Every company sells them, just not in the U.S. The company that starts to compete head to head with the VW TDI’s should have no problem grabbing a big market share.
you know, I think you are right. I used to be of the mind that only a company on the verge of bankruptcy - perhaps Mitsubishi - should bring their diesel to North America since they cannot compete against Hon, Toyo etc, but now I think a huge 2 year advantage will come to the 1st company to bring its diesels here. VW doesn't count, since they don't know how to build cars or treat customers properly. It pisses me off that they all play the same game of gas or gas+hybrid instead of giving us hte same choice the Euros get.
The big 2 and a half has to put some cars out there that will make an auto enthusiast really take notice --- and they need to do it for much less than $30K. A couple of years ago, I was in the market for a new car. Something sporty with excellent handling, sleek looks, some versatility, and an entertaining drivetrain. Fuel economy was a major concern. GM had nothing! Ford had nothing! Daimler-Chrysler had nothing!
Now that some time has passed (and I bought an Acura RSX), Ford introduced their new Mustang....NICE. Pontiac GTO... a real sleeper in the looks department. That can be a real asset in some cases. GM is definitely onto something there. I like that too....6-speed, thank you. UH-OH, gas guzzler tax!!! Dodge Charger is too blocky looking. And where the %$*^% is the clutch??? Call it a Coronet! The Charger concept car was a real head-turner for a 4-door. Back in 2000, I told my friends that if Dodge built it like that, I would be at the showroom. Oh well. I've seen spy photos and drawings for the 2010 Challenger. There's hope. Chevrolet is gonna need something else besides the Corvette. The Malibu in either bodystyle is for geriatrics. Those lines are a real yawn. Regardless of how many 'SS' badges are glued to it, there's nothing enthusiastic about that car! Can they make a Malibu that captures (in some way) the essence of 1968-72 in styling? What about Ford? They've got a Falcon for the Australian market with all the go-fast items. This car is SHARP, too! The North American market was short-changed on the Focus! Have you seen the European version? It's all new, and better looking too! The Fusion is ~ OK ~, but what else can they do with that? How 'bout a sleek luxury coupe that looks better than a Toyota Solara? A mix of attitude (performance) and sophistication (finesse)? I can go on and on! I'm a hopelss car nut, and I'm not ashamed of it. I'm confident that the big 2 and a half can get that quality control/workmanship/reliability thing tied down. What they need is a healthy dose of excitement in their designs. Hey!! Maybe they should consult with Mattel. You know, the guys that design some of today's HotWheels. Hell, they played with those cars themselves back in the '70s when THEY were kids! Now they're in the design studio. :shades:
I am on my third Toyota truck. Had a 96 Extra Cab Tacoma, 02 Access Cab Tundra and currently have an 05 Crew Cab Tacoma. I had 30+ vehicles prior to the Toyotas, only 1 (Beemer) being an import. I grew up Ford and Chevy. Had many good ones. Unfortunately, the domestics stopped building quality around 1975. Just around the time Toyota started coming around. Never really gave Toyotas a honest look until my buddy got a new truck in 1986. That thing had some serious power for a compact. Being a diehard domestic, I stayed with Jeeps and 70's era vans and trucks. Finally around 2001 I went looking for a newer vehicle I could trust on my cross-country treks. Was looking for a van, but saw a Tacoma 4X4 decked out that just sucked me in. Drove it for a year. Was so impressed, but 6 people just overflowed. So in 02 I got a Tundra after searching the competition (didn't even realize there was a Tundra). One drive and even my wife was sold. Drove it for about 4 years and over 60K miles. Kids got bigger, and one got a license. Only 5 in the truck now, but they are bigger, so I got the 4 door Tacoma. Sold my Tundra for $5K less than I paid 4 years later. You don't get that in any domestic. The Tundra may not handle the load of a 3/4 or 1 ton, but it did what I needed so well that it will be hard to convince me to go domestic unless I need a dually. Growing up, we measured a good truck by how close to 100K it died. I saw a guy with 350K on his Tundra. That is why I may never drive domestic again.
Much more for the money with a Grand Caravan SXT than an Odyssey EX. Also much more attractive exterior styling. Can't argue that the Sienna LE has a more attractive interior than the GC SXT and Odd EX...but the Sienna has the ugliest exterior styling of the 3.
Looks like Volvo, and Toyota ( Echo ) and a Corolla came together in one design. Overall bland enough to be a good econo, Japan/Korean styled knock-off look. It is a better Daewoo Aveo. Nothing to get excited about though. The Focus looks more interesting in the $12,000 class. But overall, if ya like, and need one, go for it.
not for me, personally. i would not buy one, unless it were maybe say 14.5 feet long, total length, for example, and around 120-130HP.
I tried a Rio, new one. it was ok, but I will tell you, getting to 40 feels slow, and if you floor it, gets noisey. After 40, it was not bad. it had an odd "short suv" seating deal, like you were in a truck (like old S-10).
No, the cars are ok, but most are a tiny bit too small. The Yaris is about 14.5 feet, but they can keep the odd dash. That is a deal breaker. I had hoped since they now have scion(and the off center speedomenter/cluster), why not make Toyota "normal" now(yaris). The HP is still low, though, in these cars. Versa is supposed to get 120HP(more HP than our old 97 200sx).
(sorry if I am repeating any thing from earlier today).
Wow, impressive in your opinions about styling. I feel the opposite way you do as far as Dodge styling goes. Chrysler has a much classier front end than the Dodge (which looks nose-heavy like a Neon). How do you figure you are getting more car for the money, other than a power hatch? Safety features? Better engine? Transmission? Newer Design? More comfortable interior? Better economy?
DGC has stow and go, but a one trick pony doesen't win in my book.
Our last rental (2004 i think) Caravan rode like our cousins 96 (meaning floaty and disconnected at the wheel), and I couldn't tell a difference in the engine (was the 3.3 around then?)
What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??
When American companies stop making cars like the Aveo.
(The Aveo by Chevrolet is lower than a gerbil car.)
Small cars like the aveo are exactly what the Big3 need to make more of to regain market share. Small cars are the key to attracting first time buyers, and have the most potential to influence someone towards brand loyalty. Toyota sees this. That's why they created Scion. That's why they are bringing over the yaris. That's why Honda is bringing over the fit. Toyota didn't build their reputation on Avalons and Lexuses, they did it on tiny Corollas and Camrys. Honda did it with the Accord and Civic.
Right now the Aveo is the top car in the subcompact segment. Chevy needs to keep it there, which will be very difficult with the Hyundai Accent getting a facelift, and Honda and Toyota bringing over the Yaris and the Fit. This would be the perfect place for one (or all) of the domestics to over-engineer a car and sell it for a loss for the sole purpose of getting people into a well-built american car. They's lose money initially, but it'd pay off by repairing the damage they did to their reputations in the 80s and 90s.
The 3.3 has been around since around 1990. It used to be used in the Dodge Dynasty and Chrysler New Yorker/Salon. It was also the base engine in the 1993-1997 Dodge Intrepid/Chrysler Concorde, and after those cars were redesigned it was pretty much relegated to minivan-only status.
The 3.3 is a reliable workhorse, but unfortunately most engineering work on it stopped around 1994 or so, so it's just outdated. The optional minivan 3.8 is also based on the 3.4.
I don't think it's really the engines that hamper performance so much though as the 4-speed transmission that Chrysler mates to them. In the early days this tranny was extremely troublesome. They're not bad nowadays, but one reason the reliability has improved is that they just don't make full use of the engine's power. If they did they'd shred.
This is one reason why a Chrysler 300M with 250-255 hp would only do 0-60 in around 7.8 seconds, while a supercharged Regal with 240 hp would do it in around 6.5. GM's 4-speed tranny is more durable and will simply get the power to the ground more efficiently.
Check out the Detroit News article. UAW's letter to its retired people states:
"GM's liability for retiree health-care benefits has grown from $38.4 billion in 1992 to $77 billion today. $61 billion of that liability is associated with union-represented hourly employees in the U.S."
This means that non-union represented workers are owed only $16 billion for health care, while union-represented workers are owed a staggering $66 billion dollars. Now remember this is only the healthcare portion. This has nothing to do with pension payments. Pension payments are extra. This is just health insurance.
To me the problem with all of this news is that I know where this money will have to come from. YES, The American CONSUMER. Somebody has to come up with this $66 billion so UAW workers can enjoy their retirement in Florida with full health care paid. If GM sells 4,000,000 cars in one year at $18,000 each then this will just about cover the health care obligation of GM. Imagine the company has to work and produce for one full year and all of its revenue is already taken just to pay for health care of retired workers.
When you buy a GM car you are doing charity work for UAW. In stead of buying a GM car, just give your $1,500 to Salvation Army and feel good about your self. At least this $1,500 will be tax deductible. How did GM get in this mess?
Now there's a car that doesn't have an old folk image, LOL. That's the primary owner group. That and fleets.
Like I said, she liked the fact that people thought that she was a cop. Its amazing how fast people get out of your way on the freeway when they see a CrownVic in a rear view mirror. The trick is to get a white one or a black one. Its a nice comfortable car that has a V8 and is rear wheel drive. Something that GM just cannot seem to build. They are also very cheap to buy used. I purchased a one year old model for her for 50% less then sticker price. I think that American cars make great used car purchase You can't even buy a 5 year old Toyota for 50% off sticker, but you can buy a one year old Ford CV for 50% off.
Absolutely. I stand by the fact that when Ford Motor puts the effort into building a car, they can build quite a gem. The "Iosis" while most likely to be tamed down for production, is an excellent example. I would definitely be interested in that car if it were offered. I for 1 thing the Fusion triplets are a competitive offering at the moment, not something that could be said of the outgoing Taurus, thats for sure... Looks like FMC "gets it" and I applaud their efforts.
If I were shopping in the mid 20k family sedan segment today, the triplets would be on the list with the Accord, Altima, MZ6, something I would never say about the Taurus, NEVER. I even find them more interesting than the Camry, even the upcoming 06 model :surprise:
A agree the Losis looks like it could be a winner. If they offered it here it would be a big benefit for FoMoCo (depending on the spec and options). I agree with you that FoMoCo gets it, now if they can get it on the street and make some sales they could be the ones to beat.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
that Ford Losis will lose something considerable in the translation from show car to production version. There is no way that something that sleek and low-slung could ever be mass marketed to our steadily aging, plumping population.
I'd say that Losis has about the same chance of seeing production as this, this, or this.
Rumors are the next Ford Mondeo will take a lot of cues from the Iosis. It won't be nearly as cool, but initial photoshopped predictions look practical and very good looking.
Of course, the Iosis styling cues will only be used in Ford's European offerings...
can you imagine if they had built those three! Lovely designs. Gosh do I wish they would take a chance and build something different.
GM is updating the Aveo, Ford will eventually bring over the Fiesta (??), and of course Yaris, Fit, and Versa are set to arrive by summer, but will Dodge have no answer to the subcompact explosion? Or is the Smart Car project back on? :-P
American cars are a much better deal used than new because of high fleet sales. The Deville everyone was bandying around earlier that could be had 1 year old for $20K off sticker or more, is also a fleet dealie. Something close to half of all the Devilles sold in 2004 were to fleets. Which is why you can get a rippin' deal on a used one. There is no comparison to the STS, the other car everyone was mentioning, which sells in minuscule numbers to fleets.
But the fleet connection is the reason for the existence of super-cheap used Crown Vics. If the domestics are going to sell such a high percentage to fleets, at the very least they could spread it out among the models more. Instead, models like Impala, Taurus, and Sebring/Stratus get totally whacked with fleet sale percentages higher than 50%, making them a terrible terrible new car purchase for the retail buyer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What fleets have Devilles in them? I don't see any groups of Devilles at businesses around here that do buy in fleets. I see Tauruses, Impalas, Camrys, and some small SUVs for copier service, e.g. I am curious.
I don't know what comes first. Is it because the big 3 don't like Euro cars that they don't make them well? Or is it because they don't make them well that they don't like them?
I think that the Big 3 cannot make these cars profitably. Remember, the big money is in the big rigs. Or was!
The big 2 and a half has to put some cars out there that will make an auto enthusiast really take notice --- and they need to do it for much less than $30K. A couple of years ago, I was in the market for a new car. Something sporty with excellent handling, sleek looks, some versatility, and an entertaining drivetrain. Fuel economy was a major concern. GM had nothing! Ford had nothing! Daimler-Chrysler had nothing!
Image cars are great, but most people buy bread and butter cars. What are Toyota and Honda's image cars?
DGC has stow and go, but a one trick pony doesen't win in my book.
Our last rental (2004 i think) Caravan rode like our cousins 96 (meaning floaty and disconnected at the wheel), and I couldn't tell a difference in the engine (was the 3.3 around then?)
The 3.3 has been around since 1990 and has had one power upgrade since then (150Hp to 180HP). It was an old design when it was new 15 years ago!
I purchased a one year old model for her for 50% less then sticker price. I think that American cars make great used car purchase You can't even buy a 5 year old Toyota for 50% off sticker, but you can buy a one year old Ford CV for 50% off. I posted in the Odyssey vs. Grand Caravan section a 2005 Grand Caravan at a Chrysler dealer under warranty for $12,990 with an MSRP of $28,000 or approximately 46% of MSRP after one year.
Cadillac competes in the same market as Mercedes and BMW and Lexus. And yes out of its competition Cadillac is the bargain brand. They don't hold their value as well as the competition and they don't have the same image as the competition.
Hey, at least I can count on the Cadillac, (and Lexus) to get me to and from work. To heck with this mythical resale value. I hold onto my Cadillacs for so long, resale value is purely academic. If those Benzes and Bimmers were so great, why are they traded so often that resale value is a factor in their purchase. My brohter-in-law's S430 is so troublesome, I'd have left it in a bad neighborhood at 3 AM with the doors open and the engine running. I wouldn't tolerate the crap that car has thrown at him from a Hyundai!
Now really which car would you rather be seen in Mercedes S500 or Cadillac STS.
Most definately the STS because the Benz would make me look like a wasteful, prodigal yuppie poseur loser.
I would like to repond to that with more profanity than Joe Pesci could muster in "Goodfellas" and "Casino" and all the gangsta rap music ever made, but that would get me permanently banned from the forums. I most certainly care about my Cadillacs and they are extremely well-maintained. I am so proud of my Cadillacs that I'd make Donald Trump look like he had low self-esteem issues in comparison to me. If my Cadillacs were women, I'd marry them. My 1989 Brougham looks better than most of the new cars in Philadelphia. If you think I'm bad, there are guys and gals who worship their Cadillacs to a point I even think is absurd!
What is funny about the whole thing is that GM's strategy was always correct. Its just that Toyota managed to take GM's strategy and build better cars that fit that vision better.
Why did big 3 become the auto Walmart that we discussed before? Because they almost willfully let waves and waves of imports pass them by on the prestige factor?
1) One of the first BMWs sold in USA was the 2002, it was sold at a fraction of the cheapest Caddy. When 911 first came, it probably was sold at a fraction of the Corvette. Now the pricing is just reversed.
2) When the Japanese first came, they brought their tin-boxes with them, and everybody laughed. Big 3 thought things would stay that way forever.
3) A few years ago, Korean cars were the cheapest, always ended at the bottom of mag comparos. Voila Sonata, it has more powerful engines than any domestic competitor. I bet it has better residual too. Deja vu all over again!
4) A few years from now, Chinese cars will start at the bottom. Want to bet Detroit will be able to keep them there?
When you drive around in a GM car, it shows to people that you buy bargain basement cars. I am sorry, but that is the image GM cars have. To me driving around in a GM car is the same as walking around in a WalMart T-Shirt.
And when you drive a Japanese car, you should have a bumper sticker or T-shirt that says "I'm Killing Whales, Ask Me How!".
Funny, I don't feel like any of our three cars are bargain basement. Especially my wife's new Max, heated seats, killer stereo, etc, etc, for less than 20K. I actually laugh at Accord and Camry drivers and think, "wow, why would anyone pay so much for such a trite, ordinary vehicle". And with my 98 GTP we traded for the Max I used to really laugh at CamCord Drivers. My car was better looking, lot's faster and way more fun than theirs, again for far fewer dollars.
I was trying to picture business where outside salespeople drive Cadillacs (or Lincolns) and them in a row getting into their cars at 8:30 in the morning to go a driving to appointments.
Comments
Chevy is the best at losing money and still being the biggest seller in the United States. Who cares if they sold more cars, when they lost more money. I think it's clear that lunatics are running the asylum, and 1487 is the PR director.
People who buy BMW and and Mercedes CARE about their rides. They dream of them. To show them off to friends. They take pride in their ownership.
Even the Smart Shopper purchase, Lexus, garners more desire than a Cadillac!
The Escalade is the only Caddy that an owner might have any emotion or love for, as it appeals to a younger, hipper crowd.
DrFill
The Solstice is a beauty - good work GM... well it looks good, time will tell how the quality is. It may not out drive the Miata, but it looks fantastic. I take it not much of a trunk, but who cares, at least style returns as a starting point -- hope, some hope still lingers at GM !
:shades: Loren
The new DTS looks better than the previous, yet the last DeVille, which looked like a DeVille DTS, as in classy, was the late 1990's caddy. Not to say the new DTS is not an major improvement over last year.
The CTS is stylish, with its new edgy look and better handling than expected, though overpriced.
The STS now looks like a stretched CTS, which in its price range seems like not much of a deal. I'd take a BMW or Lexus.
The Eldorado was an excellent design, style wise. Too bad it is gone.
An Escalade is an SUV. Never could see what all the fuss was about and why anyone payed so much for one. Chevy and GMC have similar models. If I owned a ranch, and have cash to burn I would consider one.... or maybe not. BMW and Acura looks sharper. If I need an SUV with HP for the track, I'll go with the Porsche.
:shades: Loren
I had a friend who seriously considering replacing his Lexus after trying out my Caddy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Take a leadership position in SOMETHIN'!
Diesels do work in Europe, and VW is building a supercharged diesel for the Golf platform.
Part of success is "Hit it where they ain't"
I think there is a similar market for diesels as there is for Hybrids.
Throw a dog a bone.
DrFill
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The traditional Yankee type car was opulent, big body with slow revving big V8. For many years, v8 Impala was the best selling family sedan, sort of the Camcorder of its day! The modern evolution of the Yankee car culture was the full size pickup truck and SUV.
It's no accident that currently the most successful big 3 cars, Corvette, Mustang and 300C, are still proudly Yankee type cars. Trouble is that you can't sell many of those cars, at least not enough to survive on. How many V8 Impalas can Chevy sell? Not in the same ballpark as I4 Accords! As big a hit as 300C is, its numbers pale in comparison with I4 Camry!
It was no accident that big 3 reached record profitability when the big trucks and suv's took over the market in the 90's. When they receded, big 3 problems started to multiply.
The reality is, even in the US, most cars sold today are Euro type. But the big 3 are just not good at making those cars. Name an outstanding Detroit-made I4 or small car in history! The most successful small cars to carry an American name are Focus and Mondeo, but those were really designed and engineered in Germany.
I don't know what comes first. Is it because the big 3 don't like Euro cars that they don't make them well? Or is it because they don't make them well that they don't like them?
An encouraging sign is that new Fusion seems to be the very best attempt a big 3 company has ever made at an Euro type car, and a competitive one as well. Because, like it or not, the name of the game is small Euro cars, not Yankee cars. But it got to be a whole revolution, not just a solitary shot across the bow!
What choice do you have if you want to buy a near luxury car. Yea, you can buy a Cadillac Deville. But you will loose your shirt in the first year of ownership. Take a look at WWW.EBAYMOTORS.COM for examples. A Cadillac DeVille will loose about $26k from new sticker price in ONE YEAR. YES a Cadillac Deville that cost $46K new can be purchased for $20K after one year. Who can afford that type loss in one year? Why would anybody loose that kind of money. That is just plain stupid. If you want a nice Cadillac, buy a used one. Its a great deal.
But what if you what to buy a new car. What choice do you have? If you what to buy a NEW car and not loose your shirt, you buy a Lexus. They keep their value. Lets check out EBAYMOTORS for some examples. A new Lexus ES330 cost about $33K after all discounts. A one year old ES300 can be purchased for about $26K. This means that driving a Lexus for one year will cost you $7,000 vs $20,000 for a Cadillac DeVille.
You know why rich people are rich? Its because they don't waist their money. That is how they got rich and why they are still rich. That is why well to do people buy Lexus. Its cheaper to drive then Domestics and you look smart driving it.
What is funny about the whole thing is that GM's strategy was always correct. Its just that Toyota managed to take GM's strategy and build better cars that fit that vision better. To me Toyota and Lexus are the new Buicks and Cadillacs. Today Lexus is the doctor's car. Buick somehow managed to move from Doctor's car to retired person's car. What is actually funny is that my retired mother was looking for a new car. She asked me to buy her a new car. We went to a Buick dealer and she told me that Buick looks like car for dead people and she is not dead yet.
Yes my mother who is retired refused to drive a Buick. I ended up buying a Ford Crown Victoria for her. She liked the car and she liked the fact that people go out of her way on highway because everybody though that she was cop. I think my mother's next car will be a Porsche. It will not be a Buick for sure.
When American companies stop making cars like the Aveo.
(The Aveo by Chevrolet is lower than a gerbil car.)
Now that some time has passed (and I bought an Acura RSX), Ford introduced their new Mustang....NICE. Pontiac GTO... a real sleeper in the looks department. That can be a real asset in some cases. GM is definitely onto something there. I like that too....6-speed, thank you. UH-OH, gas guzzler tax!!! Dodge Charger is too blocky looking. And where the %$*^% is the clutch??? Call it a Coronet! The Charger concept car was a real head-turner for a 4-door. Back in 2000, I told my friends that if Dodge built it like that, I would be at the showroom. Oh well. I've seen spy photos and drawings for the 2010 Challenger. There's hope. Chevrolet is gonna need something else besides the Corvette. The Malibu in either bodystyle is for geriatrics. Those lines are a real yawn. Regardless of how many 'SS' badges are glued to it, there's nothing enthusiastic about that car! Can they make a Malibu that captures (in some way) the essence of 1968-72 in styling? What about Ford? They've got a Falcon for the Australian market with all the go-fast items. This car is SHARP, too! The North American market was short-changed on the Focus! Have you seen the European version? It's all new, and better looking too! The Fusion is ~ OK ~, but what else can they do with that? How 'bout a sleek luxury coupe that looks better than a Toyota Solara? A mix of attitude (performance) and sophistication (finesse)? I can go on and on! I'm a hopelss car nut, and I'm not ashamed of it. I'm confident that the big 2 and a half can get that quality control/workmanship/reliability thing tied down. What they need is a healthy dose of excitement in their designs. Hey!! Maybe they should consult with Mattel. You know, the guys that design some of today's HotWheels. Hell, they played with those cars themselves back in the '70s when THEY were kids! Now they're in the design studio. :shades:
Can't argue that the Sienna LE has a more attractive interior than the GC SXT and Odd EX...but the Sienna has the ugliest exterior styling of the 3.
Two Cache Valley Shuttle Astro vans had gone 650,000 and 700,000 miles.
Loren
I tried a Rio, new one. it was ok, but I will tell you, getting to 40 feels slow, and if you floor it, gets noisey. After 40, it was not bad. it had an odd "short suv" seating deal, like you were in a truck (like old S-10).
No, the cars are ok, but most are a tiny bit too small.
The Yaris is about 14.5 feet, but they can keep the odd dash. That is a deal breaker. I had hoped since they now have scion(and the off center speedomenter/cluster), why not make Toyota "normal" now(yaris).
The HP is still low, though, in these cars. Versa is supposed to get 120HP(more HP than our old 97 200sx).
(sorry if I am repeating any thing from earlier today).
DGC has stow and go, but a one trick pony doesen't win in my book.
Our last rental (2004 i think) Caravan rode like our cousins 96 (meaning floaty and disconnected at the wheel), and I couldn't tell a difference in the engine (was the 3.3 around then?)
Now there's a car that doesn't have an old folk image, LOL. That's the primary owner group. That and fleets.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When American companies stop making cars like the Aveo.
(The Aveo by Chevrolet is lower than a gerbil car.)
Small cars like the aveo are exactly what the Big3 need to make more of to regain market share. Small cars are the key to attracting first time buyers, and have the most potential to influence someone towards brand loyalty. Toyota sees this. That's why they created Scion. That's why they are bringing over the yaris. That's why Honda is bringing over the fit. Toyota didn't build their reputation on Avalons and Lexuses, they did it on tiny Corollas and Camrys. Honda did it with the Accord and Civic.
Right now the Aveo is the top car in the subcompact segment. Chevy needs to keep it there, which will be very difficult with the Hyundai Accent getting a facelift, and Honda and Toyota bringing over the Yaris and the Fit. This would be the perfect place for one (or all) of the domestics to over-engineer a car and sell it for a loss for the sole purpose of getting people into a well-built american car. They's lose money initially, but it'd pay off by repairing the damage they did to their reputations in the 80s and 90s.
I see several Aveos around our area.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The 3.3 is a reliable workhorse, but unfortunately most engineering work on it stopped around 1994 or so, so it's just outdated. The optional minivan 3.8 is also based on the 3.4.
I don't think it's really the engines that hamper performance so much though as the 4-speed transmission that Chrysler mates to them. In the early days this tranny was extremely troublesome. They're not bad nowadays, but one reason the reliability has improved is that they just don't make full use of the engine's power. If they did they'd shred.
This is one reason why a Chrysler 300M with 250-255 hp would only do 0-60 in around 7.8 seconds, while a supercharged Regal with 240 hp would do it in around 6.5. GM's 4-speed tranny is more durable and will simply get the power to the ground more efficiently.
"GM's liability for retiree health-care benefits has grown from $38.4 billion in 1992 to $77 billion today. $61 billion of that liability is associated with union-represented hourly employees in the U.S."
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051220/AUTO01/512200330/1148- - -
This means that non-union represented workers are owed only $16 billion for health care, while union-represented workers are owed a staggering $66 billion dollars. Now remember this is only the healthcare portion. This has nothing to do with pension payments. Pension payments are extra. This is just health insurance.
To me the problem with all of this news is that I know where this money will have to come from. YES, The American CONSUMER. Somebody has to come up with this $66 billion so UAW workers can enjoy their retirement in Florida with full health care paid. If GM sells 4,000,000 cars in one year at $18,000 each then this will just about cover the health care obligation of GM. Imagine the company has to work and produce for one full year and all of its revenue is already taken just to pay for health care of retired workers.
When you buy a GM car you are doing charity work for UAW. In stead of buying a GM car, just give your $1,500 to Salvation Army and feel good about your self. At least this $1,500 will be tax deductible. How did GM get in this mess?
http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000240056711/
Would something like this bring US to the Ford show room?
Like I said, she liked the fact that people thought that she was a cop. Its amazing how fast people get out of your way on the freeway when they see a CrownVic in a rear view mirror. The trick is to get a white one or a black one. Its a nice comfortable car that has a V8 and is rear wheel drive. Something that GM just cannot seem to build. They are also very cheap to buy used. I purchased a one year old model for her for 50% less then sticker price. I think that American cars make great used car purchase You can't even buy a 5 year old Toyota for 50% off sticker, but you can buy a one year old Ford CV for 50% off.
If I were shopping in the mid 20k family sedan segment today, the triplets would be on the list with the Accord, Altima, MZ6, something I would never say about the Taurus, NEVER. I even find them more interesting than the Camry, even the upcoming 06 model :surprise:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'd say that Losis has about the same chance of seeing production as this, this, or this.
Of course, the Iosis styling cues will only be used in Ford's European offerings...
GM is updating the Aveo, Ford will eventually bring over the Fiesta (??), and of course Yaris, Fit, and Versa are set to arrive by summer, but will Dodge have no answer to the subcompact explosion? Or is the Smart Car project back on? :-P
American cars are a much better deal used than new because of high fleet sales. The Deville everyone was bandying around earlier that could be had 1 year old for $20K off sticker or more, is also a fleet dealie. Something close to half of all the Devilles sold in 2004 were to fleets. Which is why you can get a rippin' deal on a used one. There is no comparison to the STS, the other car everyone was mentioning, which sells in minuscule numbers to fleets.
But the fleet connection is the reason for the existence of super-cheap used Crown Vics. If the domestics are going to sell such a high percentage to fleets, at the very least they could spread it out among the models more. Instead, models like Impala, Taurus, and Sebring/Stratus get totally whacked with fleet sale percentages higher than 50%, making them a terrible terrible new car purchase for the retail buyer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think that the Big 3 cannot make these cars profitably. Remember, the big money is in the big rigs. Or was!
Image cars are great, but most people buy bread and butter cars. What are Toyota and Honda's image cars?
Who says Caddys are for older, retired folks? Heck you can drive one all the way to the grave!
Our last rental (2004 i think) Caravan rode like our cousins 96 (meaning floaty and disconnected at the wheel), and I couldn't tell a difference in the engine (was the 3.3 around then?)
The 3.3 has been around since 1990 and has had one power upgrade since then (150Hp to 180HP). It was an old design when it was new 15 years ago!
I posted in the Odyssey vs. Grand Caravan section a 2005 Grand Caravan at a Chrysler dealer under warranty for $12,990 with an MSRP of $28,000 or approximately 46% of MSRP after one year.
Hey, at least I can count on the Cadillac, (and Lexus) to get me to and from work. To heck with this mythical resale value. I hold onto my Cadillacs for so long, resale value is purely academic. If those Benzes and Bimmers were so great, why are they traded so often that resale value is a factor in their purchase. My brohter-in-law's S430 is so troublesome, I'd have left it in a bad neighborhood at 3 AM with the doors open and the engine running. I wouldn't tolerate the crap that car has thrown at him from a Hyundai!
Now really which car would you rather be seen in Mercedes S500 or Cadillac STS.
Most definately the STS because the Benz would make me look like a wasteful, prodigal yuppie poseur loser.
Thanks for NOT doing so!
Why did big 3 become the auto Walmart that we discussed before? Because they almost willfully let waves and waves of imports pass them by on the prestige factor?
1) One of the first BMWs sold in USA was the 2002, it was sold at a fraction of the cheapest Caddy. When 911 first came, it probably was sold at a fraction of the Corvette. Now the pricing is just reversed.
2) When the Japanese first came, they brought their tin-boxes with them, and everybody laughed. Big 3 thought things would stay that way forever.
3) A few years ago, Korean cars were the cheapest, always ended at the bottom of mag comparos. Voila Sonata, it has more powerful engines than any domestic competitor. I bet it has better residual too. Deja vu all over again!
4) A few years from now, Chinese cars will start at the bottom. Want to bet Detroit will be able to keep them there?
And when you drive a Japanese car, you should have a bumper sticker or T-shirt that says "I'm Killing Whales, Ask Me How!".
Funny, I don't feel like any of our three cars are bargain basement. Especially my wife's new Max, heated seats, killer stereo, etc, etc, for less than 20K. I actually laugh at Accord and Camry drivers and think, "wow, why would anyone pay so much for such a trite, ordinary vehicle". And with my 98 GTP we traded for the Max I used to really laugh at CamCord Drivers. My car was better looking, lot's faster and way more fun than theirs, again for far fewer dollars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,