What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

au94

my comments regarding price are Cadillac related. I would have seriously considered a CTS for 30-31k, however this creature appears to be as hard to find as a unicorn. Based on my shopping experience, you are looking at 35k minimum for a CTS, most likely in the 38k range. Sure you can make the case that this is squarely in BMW 3 series territory, but even the BMW dealerships have the good sense to keep a few 3's on the lot on the low end of the price range. If GM wants to attact new, younger buyers to Cadillac, put something out there thats reasonably affordable otherwise we'll continue to pass you by and buy Acura's, Lexi, Volvo's et al.

veliger

I don't know, but I do know of a documented Motor Trend story about an 1994 Accord that went 1.1 million, and still going.

Aren't all Accords ever built, other than those totalled when hit by a big, bad, American SUV, still running? Actually, I'm still surprised I don't see more 94 Accords around, since they never break, wear or rust. I should be seeing lots of them in 2030 with 5 million miles on them in like-new condition, with nothing ever done to them except tires and brakes.

You see, the Emperor blesses every part, and then they rub Whale Oil on them, so they last forever with no wear! :P

jlawrence01

Quite a number of corporate fleets have Devilles in them. Do consider that there are going to be a lot fewer of them as there are fewer people who get that kind of car (>$40k) than at the lower levels.

nippononly

Apparently, rental fleets, although a lot of the sales are as hearses or limos too - check it out here:

http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2005/mynvfr.pdf

It is around 50% for the "professional body" Devilles, which is hearses and limos, and 30% for the regular Devilles, which would include livery cars I assume. At 30% for the regular car, the Deville is far and away the highest fleet seller among all import luxury brands, but is roughly tied with some other GM models I wouldn't consider luxury (like the Buick Park Avenue) as well as some FoMoCo products like the Town Car.

All these cars coming off fleets is bound to lower the resale significantly.

And yes, lemko, resale doesn't matter to you as you commit to a car for a great while, but it does matter to a majority of the retail buyers out there.

lemmer

I never knew people would so harshly judge for me for my car choice. Is anything safe? I am a total idiot if I buy Japanese, a rube if I buy American, so should I buy European?

anythngbutgm

You'd probably be called a [non-permissible content removed] if you bought Euro... American only sir! Nothing else or be damned to eternity!

snakeweasel

so should I buy European?

No buy a Moscvich. :P

gtee

My brohter-in-law's S430 is so troublesome, I'd have left it in a bad neighborhood at 3 AM with the doors open and the engine running.

Most definately the STS because the Benz would make me look like a wasteful, prodigal yuppie poseur loser.

Lets see if I understand you correctly. Your brother-in-law drives a S-Class Mercedes and you would drive STS because you don't want to look like "wasteful, prodigal yuppie poseur loser." Don't you think that you are generalizing too much here just from your personal experience.

Don't blame the car just because you don't like your brother-in-law. Not all owners of Mercedes S-Class are like your brother-in-law.

carlisimo

If you're not riding on a bamboo bike with hemp chains, you're a wasteful, prodigal yuppie poseur loser.

andre1969

hemp ain't cheap nowadays. Just try getting a pair of those Hemp Adidas, if you can find 'em...helluva lot more expensive than leather! :P

lemmer

I just put a new hemp roof on my hut. It cost a ton. I won't be able to afford a new deodorant crystal or any organic tofu for a while. And I guess my VW Bus that is spewing raw gasoline and copious black smoke will have to go a little longer without a tuneup.

anythngbutgm

"Most definately the STS because the Benz would make me look like a wasteful, prodigal yuppie poseur loser."

:confuse:

That's one heck of a generalization... Wow.

lemmer

My neighborhood is apparently filled with losers, and they don't even realize it. Maybe that one 90 year old guy could explain in to him. On second thought his Alzheimer's is probably getting too bad for coherent thought.

snakeweasel

I hate to say this but almost all the Benz owners I know have a Benz simply for the status, they are nothing but social climbers.

vwdriver2

This was probably the funniest message I have ever read...loved it!!!

anythngbutgm

Well since he just called my wife (A huge Benz fan) and a few owners who are friends of mine "losers" I am quite a bit peeved at the assumption made. :mad:

But then again, some of us aren't fans of anything with a pulse. Many Garbage Motors fans out there just like that, those who prefer cheap cushy battleships like Buick or a those who prefer to waste a few more bucks on a pretentious, Guady, Pimp mobile like a Caddy.

Wouldn't call them losers though...

anythngbutgm

Ever think there may be those who prefer the ride, build quality, luxury and service you get from owning a Benz? I don't know about you, but I've owned a Benz. Great car, something that no glorified Chevy could touch for the above qualities. That is the reason I bought them... Sure there are those who buy for status, but calling every Benz buyer a "loser" is a bit ignorant, don't ya think?

carlisimo

Negative publicity will save GM!

snakeweasel

Yes there are those who might like the ride, and such but to be honest you can get all that in a car for less $$$. It is also my understanding that the Benz quality is going downhill (many are complaining about it).

But to be honest just because it is an over priced german car (yes thats all a Benz truly is) doesn't mean that a "glorified chevy" can't touch it.

Still just about every Benz owner I have ever known bought the Benz to improve their status (which in that case makes them a snob).

lemmer

That is just too silly and insulting to argue about.

snakeweasel

Why? Does it hit to close to home?

lemmer

Maybe if you mean my neighbors, but I personally (and I can't think of anyone in my family) have never owned a Mercedes.

I am able to recognize value in them.

anythngbutgm

Ever owned a Benz? Ever owned a German ride? Just curious.

snakeweasel

Have I ever owned one? No

Will I ever own one? No, I consider them way overpriced.

Have I ridden in one? Yes on many occasions.

Have I driven one? Yes on many occasions.

Sorry they are NOT what they are cracked up to be. Nice cars but still over priced catering to snob appeal.

anythngbutgm

Then you are missing out on some very fine Automobiles. You probably wouldn't appreciate them if you shop price when choosing a car. That's cool, I respect that.

BOT, Fusion triplets are becoming popular around here. Not "every other car" kind of popular, but popular. Far more popular than the G6, that's for sure, and deservedly so.

lemmer

Is your answer to the question posted in the discussion title that the American brands need to develop snob appeal, or that they need to convince those who buy Mercedes and the like that their cars are overpriced?

snakeweasel

I shopped them when I bought the wifes and mine "special" car (not the daily drives) Looked at the Benz, Caddy, BMW, Lexus, infinity, Jag, Lincoln and the like. We chose the Caddy, just like it a whole lot better.

anythngbutgm

They definitely need to prove that their cars can play in the same league as the Germans. Oh and BTW, as far as $$$ go, there may not be too much advantage: Domestic

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=DyGXby0c1Zq- - shjljQByLyJ1wCByQGnmByXmnRQT5pJ3pTZyvrP9G!477452830?op=0&tab=pricing&isbasecar=f- - alse&modelid=&styleid=&refid=&maxvehicles=5&vehicleindex=&removestyle=&numCars=3- - &just=center&modelId0=100504903&styleId0=100530524&modelId1=100506780&styleId1=1- - 00649803&modelId2=100506226&styleId2=100664885

Problem is, the Caddy's interior materials and build is sorely outclassed by a Kia Spectra, let alone the other two competitors, yet it commands so equal a pricetag...

It's this kind of observation I find as a problem winning over import fans to the domestic side (In GM's case here). And yes, I too have driven the CTS. It drove like a much bigger car, had horrible steering feel and the manual tranny was like rowing a rod through a box of rocks. Certainly no a car that should be commanding the 36k they wanted for it. I'd give them 25 grand, tops.

snakeweasel

Neither since the number of buyers in that market are relatively few.

ontop

A bean counters car, of course.

lemmer

No profit in luxury cars - I should note that for BMW and Mercedes.

anythngbutgm

"Funny, I don't feel like any of our three cars are bargain basement. Especially my wife's new Max, heated seats, killer stereo, etc, etc, for less than 20K. I actually laugh at Accord and Camry drivers and think, "wow, why would anyone pay so much for such a trite, ordinary vehicle". And with my 98 GTP we traded for the Max I used to really laugh at CamCord Drivers. My car was better looking, lot's faster and way more fun than theirs, again for far fewer dollars."

Looks like you are a rare bird my friend:

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103041

"The Maxx will be dropped at the end of the 2007 model year."

OOPS.

snakeweasel

Yeah, 400 HP 0-6 in like 4.5 seconds, good on the curves. Yep a bean counters car (BTW you don't know bean counters )

snakeweasel

I never said that.

You know I never said that.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

lemmer

That is what I don't get - the people whose posts basically state that the Americans make superior cars for the money.

If that is true, why won't people buy them?

lemmer

OK, not enough profit in luxury cars to matter - note this to BMW and Mercedes.

snakeweasel

Because people are idiots. Many people don't buy facts they buy image and perception. Sometimes those images and perceptions are based in reality, a lot of times they are not. Thats why people will spend $100+ for Nike sneakers when they are no better than a good $30 pair. Thats why people flock to bad movies with overpaid actors who can't act. Thats why.... well you get my drift.

snakeweasel

Again:

I never said that.

You know I never said that.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

hansienna

They do. THE BEST selling vehicle in the United States is the Ford F-150 and THE BEST selling minivan is the Grand Caravan.

anythngbutgm

Then I guess I your perception of those who buy the Escalades, Navigators and Hummers is equal those "idiots" who buy German makes? Or is it just anything non-Domestic like MB, BMW, Audi...

BTW, I agree with you completely about Hollywood. Bunch of overpaid bums, get a real job...

Losers :P

anythngbutgm

I've checked out the F series a number of times, and I must say that it deserves the title. From miles of options, to a quality, well built interior, to a solid, if only puposeful drivetrain, it deserves the title. I'd give the nod to the Titan V8 for ultimate seat of the pants performance, but the F series earns my respects.

Don't pay much attention to the minivans, but I prefer the Ody in the interior build and materials, and drivetrain refinement. But the Caravan has the advantage of covering a wide range to suit your budget, from a bare bone 17k'er to a Decked to the gills 40 grand'er, something the limited model Ody can't cover.

rockylee

I do agree if you want the best Luxury Car in the world at any price, then Buy a 2006 Cadillac STS, STS-AWD or STS-V. If you want something that's a bit bigger, get a DTS. The 2007 or 2008 CTS will be the best entry luxury car on the market from what I've gathered. The NEW 2007 Caddy Escalade and EXT is by far the best Large
SUV made->PERIOD !
The SRX will be better once it get's a freshening.

Name me a Yuppie Benz or a BMW that has so much luxury and features as a STS ???? The STS-V will smoke a S500 Benz and will compete with a M5. The 07' or 08' 515 horsepower+ CTS-V will smoke the M5 for sure.

I will go out on a limb and claim (strictly my opinion) Cadillac is the best car division on the planet !!!!

If I was given a Bently, Aston, or some other luxury branded car, I'd sell it to a yuppie, and buy a Caddy and still have enough change to go on vacation.

I can't believe some of you taking pop shots at the "Standard of the World"
Cadillac, I agree wasn't 5 years ago. However They once again claimed that title and going to keep it for a long time !

- As far as the Deville for $20K and change, I don't think the MSRP was $46K. More like a $41K and they were given huge rebates last year on Devilles. Down here they were knocking $20K off MSRP on some Devilles, and were the deal of the decade in 2005. So yes they did have a poor residual value, do to dealers and GM incentives. However it's better than paying sticker for a Lexus, something you Loren should consider since you like good deals. :shades:
However you won't find a STS V8 performance package version with a $20K mark down. That's the car I was looking for.

Rocky

snakeweasel

I posted a while back where according to Edmunds sales prices and Kelly Blue Book values year old Caddys with 15K on them have trade in and private party prices that are 85-90+% of the sales price.

rockylee

Exactly !!!! People claiming that Cadillac resales drop 60-70% in a yr. are insane.

Rocky

snakeweasel

correct I just looked at edmunds MSRP and Invoice prices on the Caddy CTS and STS and went to Carmax and check the selling prices for the 05 models. the CTS was 84.7%/85.3% of the MSRP and 91.9%/92.8% (check two cars 1st had 8k and the second had 11k) of the Invoice. The STS was 88.0% and 95.6% respectively with 24K on it (thats good).

Then I checked Lexus the ES 330 numbers were 91.4% and 93.5% with 4k on it. A LS 439 was 85.2% and 97.5% with 12K on it.

Seems to me that Caddy is on par with Lexus on this.

rockylee

Yep, you are correct.

fintail

Comparing STS-V to S500 is apples to oranges. S500 is a German-style luxobarge, no real performance tuning.

rockylee

Well fintail, I'd take a regular STS preferably STS-AWD with a V-8 and all the bells and whistles over any Merc. I feel Mercs are a over priced Volkswagon Passatt. If I was going to buy a german car, I'd buy a Volkswagon. They have a better build quality for alot less change. I however like the luxury and style of todays Cadillacs

Rocky

rockylee

Would you personally take a S500 over a STS Northstar V8

Just curious ????

Rocky

rockylee

If you base your soul opinions from the yellow journalist car mags, then you are strictly getting a biased opinion. The fact remains that Cadillac sells more vehicles than Mercedes, BMW, Acura, Infiniti, etc etc. except Lexus.
If they are so damn bad, then why do they sell so well ????

Rocky