When I was talking about ergonomics, I'm talking about the interior's features and the ease in while the driver can use those features, even while driving.
You mention Buick when speaking of the Lexus IS, in ergonomics and ride, which is fine. Buick seems to have generally good ergonomics.
Stating a Lexus IS and Buick drive the same is a stretch, but you have been known to stretch the truth to make a point.
Saying an e90 is 2 generations ahead of the IS is an overstatement as well, as the 2002 IS was judged more fun to drive than a 330i when R&T compared the two in a 11 Sport Sedan Test, which has the Lexus come in 3rd, BMW 2nd, G35 first.
The first IS has been lauded for it's handling and chassis quality, just not for it's back seat or interior quality. And the current one is a great car, from what I hear, it is just too automated.
If you say BMW's interiors are easier to use, much less easier on the eyes, than an Acura and Lexi, good luck to you, my friend. :confuse:
To correct some of your information. The Acura TL is built in Marysville, Oh, The MDX is built in Alliston Ontario. The balance of Acura's cars are made in Japan. The TL and MDX make up almost 70% of Acura's sales, and are marketed here in North America only. Tour a Honda plant sometime. Everyone wears the same uniform. The floor employees get major bonuses and awards for ideas that improve the product or efeciency of the plant. According to business week, their wages and benefits are on par with UAW. Honda has been building in the US for more than 30 years and the UAW can't seem to get voted in. Why is that? Most unions have long since outserved their usefullness. It seems to be more about greed and status than working with the employer to make things better for everybody involved.
The Camry's interior is probably one of the plainest on the market and it looks terrible in the upper level trims with the fake woodgrain.
I can't help but think of a 1955-56 Ford Mainline sedan when I look at the Camry's instrument panel. Must be those prominent circular HVAC controls.
Interestingly enough, few of their luxury models are built in the US even though those brands generally dont exist back in Japan. What does that tell you about thier faith in the abilities of their US workforce. If everything was truly about design and their engineers are so great, why can't Lexus/Infiniti/Acura models be built here?
I might not feel so bad about buying a Lexus LS430 if it was built here, preferably in a Northern state. I would definately buy a Lexus if they built the factory in North Philly!
Oh yeah, VW sells to fleets alright. STACKS AND STACKS of base model Jettas (VE) and Passats, sold to Enterprise in my area.
Really? Where do you live? I've never seen VWs in rental fleets. As far as foreign cars go, I've seen plenty of Nissans.
I think my next vehicle will be a Buick, if they continue the Rainer liner, but my wife keeps telling me I cannot own a Buick until I am 50. BS- This is another problem that will be most difficult for some domestic brands, an "image" problem with people sterotyping that Buicks and Cadillacs are for retired people.
I really hate this stereotype as I've been buying Cadillacs and Buicks since I was very young. Heck, my first car was a Buick. I learned early that Buick builds better cars! Nobody has to sell me on Buick! I really want to check out the Lucerne. I just don't want to go now with the holidays and such. If I see the Lucerne and fall in love with it, there goes my Xmas budget!
I think this kind of comment is poor taste. It doesn't make it any less true; Buick used to build a few cars for people with a pulse, such as the GN, GSX, and the 64-73 Riviera GS . Now all the division can do is crank out Lexus clones. Yawn. Maybe when I hit 75 a Buick will start to look good to me. You never know...
That's why they should put on a 7/100 powertrain warranty without delay, to run for the intervening decade until people are convinced they really are building quality again. Whether or not the quality is there, people will be more likely to buy knowing their new car will be under warranty for most of the time they own it.
A warranty is nice, but I want a vehicle that does not break so that I do not have to spend the time and inconvenience of getting it fixed. I think that most vehicles (domestic and import) are quite reliable now. Where I see the difference is in the design and resale value of Big 3 vs. the others (less so for Daimler/Chrysler). It seems to me that especially Honda and Toyota are continually coming out with innovations and the big 3 simply make poor attempts to catch up. By and large the Big 3 have outdated styles and engineering and try to get by with lower prices. What makes it really difficult is that the big 3 are behind now and they not only have to catch up but also overtake the others to really shine and they have some really tough competition.
it may be in poor taste, but hey, it made me laugh! :P FWIW, a couple years back when my Dad bought his used '03 Regal, I joked with him that he wasn't old enough to drive a car like that!
I really hate this stereotype as I've been buying Cadillacs and Buicks since I was very young.
There's always an outlier. I sometimes see this one old guy driving around in an RSX. That's not enough to erase the RSX's image as the ride of choice for the "rhymes with spicer" crowd, and your affinity for modern renditions of a '70s lux-o-barge doesn't erase Buick's image as the ride of choice for the Geritol crowd.
I have never owned anything other than GM or Ford products in my 41 years of driving, but that is going to change. At present I own a 1993 Ford Explorer, bought new and a 1994 Ford Ranger 4x4 bought used in 1996, both of them have been great cars with few problems.
These are my reasons for not buying from the big 3 based on what I know. I have not examined every model from each company so my thoughts do not apply to every model.
The U.S. car makers have hitched their stars to the big SUV and pick-up market. High priced cars with low MPG. Lots of money to buy and operate with little or no regard to conservation or environment.
I don’t see U.S. auto makers doing much to fill the need for quality, high mileage passenger car that can 30 to 40 MPG.
Ford’s statement that they would, “not sell diesels passenger cars in the U.S. unless they could sell them in all 50 states”. Is this the kind of business attitude a major corporation should have? If I can’t have it all, I won’t play? This statement smacks of greed, laziness and ignorance. Consider Ford kicked to the curb.
Styling and quality is marginal at best, but like my wife points out: All cars look the same today. Ford’s interior finish is much nicer than Chevy.
What will make me buy U.S.
Ford: Put a 2.0L or 2.5L diesel in the Ranger in both 2x4 and 4x4. Chevy: Put a diesel in the HHR and quit using such cheap plastic.
Chrysler or Dodge has an option for a diesel in their concept Dodge Caliber due to come out next year. Never been a fan of Chrysler products, but if they start putting diesels in passenger cars they might get my attention if I can get past the ugly design.
My next car is going to be a diesel. I don’t need a SUV so the Liberty is out and I do not want nor can I afford a MB. Checking my long list of options that leaves me with, oh yes, a VW Jetta or New Bug. :surprise:
Come on. Next you'll be making Florida funeral jokes about this. I think the Lucerne is going to move to a middle demographic. The Northstar will attract many "youthful buyers" at least in their 60's, grin. No actually younger than that--people who will ike the car and the price.
Well, here's a pic of the last and only Buick I've ever owned, and I liked it, so obviously I'm not going to get hurt by these "God's waiting room" jokes. :P
And I've toyed with the idea of buying this little gem, although I need it like I need a hole in the head.
Before you buy a diesel powered anything (with the exception of big trucks), put a paper and pencil/calculator to the economics- where I live (big East Coast city), diesel fuel is selling for $2.79 per gallon, regular gasoline for $2.25 per gallon- a whopping 20% difference. So even if the diesel gets 20% better mileage, you are just breaking even. And add to that the limited availability of diesel fuel (20% of all gas stations, I've heard), the higher costs of buying one, the rarity of automotive diesel technical people, the noise, the smell, the slow acceleration, the poorer cold weather performance- you get the idea.
I read all of this diesel stuff, but if you are looking to save fuel costs (not just high mileage, but costs), there are some wonderfully performing gasoline powered vehicles that are probably a safer bet.
I would also like to see more diesel engineered vehicles designed for better fuel economy and not just brute force towing. What about a Hybrid for your applications. The Accord and Civic hybrids are interesting as is the Prius. No domestic offerings for cars though!
If you look at the transaction prices and incomes of buyers of European, Japanese and American cars, it's indisputable the Europeans have the highest, the Japanese the middle ground, and the big 3 the lowest. The big 3 are the Wal-mart of the auto world, if you will, their products are perpetually on sale, their customers are always looking for big discounts. If big discounts are your thing, don't look at Hugo Boss & Armani, BMW and MB.
Walmart proves that, at the low end, you can still be the most profitable if you keep growing and take market share from hi end competitors. Everything (management, distribution, manufacturing) has to be lean and mean. Significantly you have to be young, and so without legacy costs. Probably WM went public less than 20 years ago.
Big 3 are among the oldest in the industry, saddled with enormous legacy costs (UAW contracts, retirees, unused factories). Their senior executives are paid more than their competitors'. They have quite a few brands that've outlived their usefulness, bloating the marketing and distribution costs.
There's no solution to this problem. The Germans and Japanese have no intention whatsoever of being Walmart. If anything, the Japanese are contesting for the top end. Lexus customers probably are wealthy as any group. Infiniti customers are by far the youngest among the premiums. In a few years, they're even coming after Porsche and Ferrari with their GTR, NSX and LF-A.
GM and Ford are trying real hard, but it's hard to see how they can cut costs deep and soon enough to be a profitable Walmart. Put it this way, does anyone see a solution? A few hits here and there (Corvette, 300C) won't do the trick!
is that GM took Cadillac, a brand that had basically disappeared down the garbage disposal of the industry sometime last decade, and in a few short years turned it into a solid, respected luxury competitor. They did this with a complete revamp of the vehicles (even though they still have the Escalade and DTS, which don't really fit the line, although sell well in their own right) including a separate performance line of V-cars. It must have cost them millions and a complete turnabout in their way of thinking, but it is now paying them back in spades - they have several midpack contenders in the various luxury car segments, as well as a heck of a nice crossover, and sales are way up.
They showed they CAN do it. Which means that the fact that they WON'T do this for any of the other divisions is a conscious decision probably based on their thinking they don't have the brand equity to make better products and ask more money for them. In other words, they are INTENTIONALLY staying "WalMart" in the other divisions, rather than making an effort to turn their long-term fortunes around.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I have looked at hybrids and at this point I have a wait and see attitude about this technology. I have worked and lived (15 days a month on tugs) around diesels most of my life and feel it’s a proven technology with a great track record. Im not pleased with the fact that VW is the only game in town. If the big 3 won’t give us diesels, Im hoping Honda or Toyota will bring them to the U.S. by mid 2006.
And lweiss, yes, I have kind of run the number and it’s close $$ wise. I live in Washington state (the Washington without the lunatics) and diesel is higher than gas by about $0.20 a gallon + or - $0.05 at any given time.
Maybe I’m cutting off a little bit of nose to spite my face, but this is my only way to make a statement to the Big 3 that if you refuse to provide a growing % of consumers what they want, those consumers will get it someplace else.
I have a question for everyone: Does this forum ever get read by people in the industry that can make a difference or that can go to the board of directors and tell them why the public is or is not buying their product? Or is it just us people in the forum commiserating among our selves.
I have written four letters to auto makers (Honda, Toyota, GM and Ford) asking if they had any intentions of bringing diesels to the U.S. market by mid 2006. If and when I get an answer, I’ll post it hear and in the diesel forums
A warranty is used as a whip to force the auto company to make a better car. For the company will have to pay a good of money in repairs if they don't.
The difficulty for GM is to de-Walmartize, it has to give up share willingly, but it's still saddled with legacy costs, no matter what it does!
The trick is de-Walmartize and hang on to your share. Instead what big 3 effectively are doing is Walmartize and lose shares, the worst of all possible worlds.
That's why the B word is in vogue among some people. Using bankruptcy protection, you can shred a lot of your legacy costs, and emerge with a new cost structure and viable operating philosophy.
VW money woes, etc...story from today. Says GM and Ford not the onlyone's with troubles.
I never owned a VW, btw....so won't comment on their quality, good or bad, since I do not know.
As for cars, we shoot for 18K or less, because, i have a 30 year old home, got it for 38,000, and 2/3rd of an acre of land with it, in 95. I ain't paying(before financing, etc) 50% + (of what our house cost, before financing)for a car i will own maybe 6 years(drive 35-45,000 miles a year).
If I drove maybe 10,000 miles per year, then 20-30K MSRP for a car might make more sense, if I kept it 225,000+ miles, like we do our"inexpensive" cars.
Would have the thing 25 years! lol.
Not knocking anyone. if ya cna afford it, or can't, buy what ya like. Me? rather pay our house off, and pay the extra grand or three to "modernize" our home, update stuff. A home is a better investment than a car.
Anyhow.... Buy what ya like.
I am waiting for the Chinese BMW knock-offs for 15-20K, in 5 -10 years,
you won't have to wait 5-10 years for those Chinese BMW knockoffs. AAMOF you should see one of those pseudo-BMW's in just a couple of years here in the States. Stay closely tuned for all of the fun!
I saw an ad on tv for the V8 Impala, and the new engine, that gets 28MPG! The price said " 21,000"(plus a few hundred), for "red tag" sale. Hmmmm, was very intrigued. That is until I saw the low price is for the base model, V6. The car we saw on tv was 27K. :mad:
Nice car, but too much cash for us. And we try to avoid used cars these days. I know, "certified" cars....I had an uncle once that was certifiable
Hey... I am wondering about this Bricklin-Chery deal...still read mid-2007 for 5 vehicles , and of course, there's the one comapny that will show a vehicle at Detroit for 06, and another company in 07, from China, also joining in. Read on detnews.com(autoinsiders) that the compnay that is showing their car in jan claims they will hit stateside by 09, it sounds like.
Sounds like the Equinox(Chinese made engine in it) is doing well. So, who knows? Mr Bricklin said he wants 10/100K warranty on the cars, too. Note: this 10/120K did not help Isuzu, a few years back, when they tired to best Hyundai's warranty.
We shall see. TCNO(take care/not offense). DAV 83-94
That's funny. I had a '98 Passat and I'll never go back to a German car. Great car to drive, but in the shop more times in 7 years than I could count. I've got enough aggravation in my life without my car adding more.
"The difficulty for GM is to de-Walmartize, it has to give up share willingly, but it's still saddled with legacy costs, no matter what it does!"
Say they go from 4.5 million a year to 3.5 million a year. I am seeing reports that legacy costs per unit run about $2000, give or take $500 depending on which report you read. The drop in sales would increase per-unit costs by approximately 30%, or $600 or so. If they were then building class-leading cars and trucks that everyone wanted, a $600 bump in prices would be nothing.
I am not firmly convinced that GM really knows what Americans want in their cars these days, however, or that they would be willing to try to one-up Honda and Toyota at the things those companies currently do best.
In fact both Ford and GM seem to have something against 4-cylinder engines and small cars (small vehicles in general). This puts them at a disadvantage every time gas prices go up. It also excludes them from a large important part of the automotive market.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You would have to be certifiably crazy not to buy most GM cars used. Try half price in a year or two, or get one even cheaper, with low miles in say four years for say a third the original cost. What a deal that is. If the used car does not need repair over say another year to three years, take the money difference set aside from what the new car would have cost, and consider it free money! You can invest it in stocks, while the person that bought the new car watch $5k to $10K disappear each year. Take a look at a new DTS Caddy, and one a year old, from a dealership, or better yet a private buy. Can be $12K to $17K less than original retail, which means MUCH less a price from a private source. If the dealer is knocking that off, what did he give the trade-in seller?
I suggest that you purchase or borrow from your local library a book simply entitled "Car". It tells the story of the development of the 1996 Ford Taurus and Mercury Sable (the ovoid ones).
In an early chapter, the author relates the story of Ford obtaining one of the new model 1992 Camry's and being completely blown away by the quality of it. From the materials used to the craftsmanship in assembly, the Ford folks were simply amazed by what Toyota had produced.
Naturally, Ford used that Camry as the benchmark for the new Taurus.
Naturally, they missed the mark due to cost issues.
As much as it pains me to say this, I truly believe that Ford and GM are going to have a tough road to hoe unless they are able to radically restructure their contracts with the UAW so as to cut costs. If the media reports are true and each vehicle that GM builds has $1500 in insurance costs in it, they are going to be in a world of hurt as more of their employees retire and GM has to continue full health coverage. I don't see where it would hurt for the UAW membership to pick up at least some of their health benefit costs.
They have picked up a portion of the costs. A dollar per hour in all future raises will go into a healthcare savings accounts. They are paying a portion for health benefits now and so are the retirees. By the way the $1500 added onto the vehicle also includes wages, health benefit's and retirement/401K plans, not just insurance costs. How much White Collar money is added onto the cost of a vehicle ???? Ahhhh that's a touchy issue huh ? We won't bring that up, because that's looked at in the media as okay !!!! Let's take Delphi for instance. The TOP 600 management at Delphi are still trying to pay themselves over 900 MILLION in salary and bonuses. The Federal bankruptcy judge thankfully said wait a minute. You want to void the union contracts and file for bankruptcy, but you still want to pay yourselves over 900 million ????
The big 3 are the Wal-mart of the auto world, if you will, their products are perpetually on sale, their customers are always looking for big discounts
It is semantics, but most of the time Wal Mart does not give big discounts. I believe that their motto is "the lowest price always" or something like that. They have cheap products that they sell cheap. They don't pretend that it is a $30 toaster marked down to $10. They call is a $10 toaster and may occasionally sell it for $8. This is different to the big 3 who will put a $30K + price tag on a vehicle and sell it to you for $20K saying that you have saved over $10K when in fact you have saved nothing.
It seems to me that the Japanese may actually have taken the "value" title since many of their cars are priced slightly higher than the domestics, but are of perceived better quality and resale value that they are actually cheaper to own or are perceived to be cheaper to own. I think that this is the real dilemma for the domestics.
They have picked up a portion of the costs. A dollar per hour in all future raises will go into a healthcare savings accounts.
I read somewhere that labor costs for GM, including benefits were $87 per HOUR. So the UAW will give $1/ hour of FUTURE RAISES towards medical. How does it work if there are pay cuts?
Take a look at a new DTS Caddy, and one a year old, from a dealership, or better yet a private buy. Can be $12K to $17K less than original retail, which means MUCH less a price from a private source.
Not to sure about that one. Since the DTS is new for 2006 and Kelly Blue book doesn't have data on it I used a 2005 STS to test this out. According to Edmunds a base STS with a 6 cylinder had a sticker of $41,220 and an invoice of $38,181. According to KBB a base 6 cylinder STS in good condition with 15,000 miles will get $31,990 in a private sale. that is only a $6,191 (or a little more than 16.2%) off of invoice or $9,230 (or a little less than 22.4%) of MSRP. Retail price is $38,770 which is more than the invoice price (and actually more than what Edmunds is saying the TMV is).
FWIW I bought a CTS-V this summer and the trade in value per KBB is MORE than what I paid for it. Of course I got a great deal for it. But the KBB trade in value is only about $4,500 less than what the typical sales price was. Holding up pretty well I would say.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Do you see a dillusional media ???? Damn it used to be $45 an hour with benefits a few years ago and my father only made a few dollars less an hour, and has the same benefits. Steve Miller is quoted as saying the cost of a UAW member autoworker is $65 an hour with wages and benefits. "He made the quote of he wasn't going to pay someone $65 an hour to mow the lawn." which angered UAW members, since they don't mow the lawn. However he does pay atleast that per hour to the outside contractors that are responsible for lawn care and snow removal, and the UAW called him on it. He was making a insulting reference to the jobs the autoworkers have. He is trying to paint a ignorant picture to the public of how easy and "no skill level" those jobs are. I guess he "will see" just how "easy" those jobs are to fill if the UAW goes on strike. Good Luck Steve !!!!
Now the report you read of $87 an hour. WHOA !!!!! My god I'd like to know what yellow journalist wrote that whopper. I growing up would look at my Dad's checks, and always thought we were poor. He made a hair over $55,000 last yr. at $26 an hour. You are telling me benefits are costing GM $61 an hour ?????? :confuse: If you or anyone really honestly believe that report, I got some ocean front property in Arizona, I wanna sell ya. If interested lemme know ASAP so I can work up the paperwork
The bottom line is the newspaper journalist don't know their head from a hole. $45, $50, $60, $65, $75, are what I've seen by so called journalist. The bar has been raised to $87 an hour now :surprise: ROTFFLMAO !!!!! <- laughing
-Remember to shoot me a e-mail if your interested in that Arizona BEACH FRONT property
No disrespect, but I gotta agree with the snakeweasel on your caddy resale figures. If you can buy em' that cheap, lemme know where. I'd seriously be interested, because that would be alot more than what my GM discount gives me off. My GM discount is roughly 15% off MSRP or approx. 2% under invoice. I'd seriously would drive or fly to a dealer giving those type of discounts on used Caddy's. I had a 01' STS and wouldn't mind a newer one. I take a 2005 AWD STS for $17K off. Just point me in the direction I need to go. Thanx-->Rocky
You are so right in what you say. In fact the only place that I even see GM cars are in the parking lot of WalMart. Here in Atlanta you hardly even see a GM car anymore. Maybe an odd Buick with a retired person inside. Come to think of it, I have never even seen anyone under 65 in a Buick.
Today I went to a mall and I could count on one had how many GM cars I saw. Sure there were plenty of GM SUVs there, but cars maybe 4. The only place where you still see some GM cars is in the WalMart parking lot. I guess that people will lower incomes still buy GM cars simply because they are cheap. I guess that a used GM car is a good value.
I don't know how GM managed to get this WalMart image. I guess Chevy should change their slogan from "Heart Beat of America" to "Heart Beat of Midwest", because people outside of Midwest just don't buy GM cars anymore. A friend of mine had a Chevy Impala as a company car and I remember that he was almost embarrassed driving it. The first words out of his mouth were:
1) Its a company car. 2) Its not as bad as it looks.
I think that it will be very hard for GM to over come the discount store image that they have. The reason discount stores like Walmart do well is that people buy products there that don't say WalMart on them. When you buy a toaster from WalMart it says "Black & Decker" on the toaster, not WalMart. Nobody knows how much you paid for the toaster or where you purchased it. In case you have not noticed, Walmart does not sell too many T-shirts with "Every Day Low Prices" printer on them.
When you drive around in a GM car, it shows to people that you buy bargain basement cars. I am sorry, but that is the image GM cars have. To me driving around in a GM car is the same as walking around in a WalMart T-Shirt.
>600 management at Delphi are still trying to pay themselves over 900 MILLION in salary and bonuses. The Federal bankruptcy judge thankfully said wait a minute.
You must be joking. Take a look at EBAYMOTORS for all sorts of used Cadillacs discounted way more then $17K from retail price. Here is a nice example for you. A brand new 2005 Cadillac DeVille cost $46K. You can buy a one year old 2005 DeVille now for $20,700. Take a look at the link.
Do you consider Chrysler and Dodge "American" now that German Daimler purchased the former Chrysler? The Grand Caravan is just as good as any foreign brand and has more nice features for less money.
I call them as I see them. You have to compare apples to apples. Cadillac competes in the same market as Mercedes and BMW and Lexus. And yes out of its competition Cadillac is the bargain brand. They don't hold their value as well as the competition and they don't have the same image as the competition.
Now really which car would you rather be seen in Mercedes S500 or Cadillac STS. I think that all people who don't work for GM would rather drive a Mercedes S500 or BMW 750 instead of Cadillac STS. Sure people buy STS, but only because its cheaper. Cadillac has a long way to go before people buy it strictly its worth. Now people buy Cadillacs due to price, and that is called a Bargain.
Interesting. I have family who work/worked at Ford Chrysler and GM - they are still looking for those big pay rates the news rambles on about . Lots of neocons and bozo's who never worked for a living are out their trashing American working people and making bogus statements - there otta be a law, but who would enforce it?
You're exactly right, among the premium brands, only Jag gives more incentives per car than Caddy. And Jag is in deep trouble, rumors are rampant Ford will have to find someone to give it to.
Anyway when I started calling the big 3 the auto Walmart, I meant it in general. I'm sure you can find things at Walmart that are more expensive than at Macy's!
First of all, your comparison shows you dont know much about Cadillac. The STS is much cheaper than the S500 or 760il, cadillac doesnt have a car to compete with those models. Second of all, I dont know about cadillac's image but they have passed MB in sales in spite of having fewer models to offer. Really cadillac is ahead of BMW as well, but BMW cheats by adding Mini to it's monthly sales figures. Couple that with the fac that Cadillac usually scores higher than everyone except lexus in customer satisfaction and quality and I would say Caddy is holding it's own against BMW and MB. All this is being done in spite of the fact that Caddy was barely on the radar 5 years ago. With the new Escalade coming out next year and a new CTS in 2007 I think Caddy can be called a legitamate player.
I dont work for GM but I would rather have an STS than an S500. The STS is likely to be more reliable, more exclusive and it handles better. On top of all that I am not crazy about the interior of the current S class. Its no better than that of the much cheaper C class.
what is vexing is that you are in fantasy land when it comes to GM sales and their product plans. First of all Chevy will be the best selling brand in the US in 2005. I dont care if they used REd Tag events or whatever, the bottom line is that Chevy will sell more vehicles than Ford and Toyota in spite of the fact that Chevy is dependent on SUV sales. Chevy is doing just as good as Cadillac and has a whole line of new trucks/SUVS coming in 2006. I dont think they need a lot of help at this point.
Saturn is getting three new products in 2006 and all three promise to be among GM's best vehicles. Especially the Aura which addresses the complaints of most import fanatics.
GMC's sales are doing fine and will be bolstered by new large SUVs and pickups in 2006.
That leaves only Buick and Pontiac and I believe pontiac will be fine in 2006 due to the availability of the torrent and the full G6 line (coupe, sedan, drop top). So really that only leaves Buick on shaky ground.
GM gave Caddy exclusive platform and engines (at least ones with max power). That established Caddy's identity apart from all sister divisions. It will take similar drastic actions to establish a separate identity for another division. Giving a division another model that shares platform/engine is not sufficient. At least GM has never been able to make it work.
That goes for Ford too, I doubt if Zephyr will meet any kind of success. Ditto Nissan! I35, based on Maxima, was a failure. ES is a success, but then normal rules don't apply to Toyota!
After a post like that, you've got Bungaloo #1, Mr. Rourke!
ALL OF GM IS ON SHAKY GROUND!! ALL, NOT SOME, ALL!!
Toyota was all but ready to pass GM in sales in October AND November, and without GM fleet sales, would've done just that! They already caught Ford!
With Colorados, Malibus, and Cobalts the Mags say can't touch Hyundais, Chevy is sucking much more than wind. These "efforts" are in major classes.
Saturn's Aura has a tough road to hoe, as they have one of the worst lead-ins (Ion) in the industry, a car that might be inferior to it's predecessor!
If they sell 125k, they should run a Block Party from here to Brooklyn!
The Solstice makes Pontiac what? The G6 is a dud. They have no small sedan. What is a Grand Prix at this point? They sell no trucks. The Vibe is a Toyota. Is there anything there? I don't see it.
Saturn has been dead for several years. And cars like the Aura and Sky will give it a faint pulse, but it will take much more to make me a Saturn believer.
GMC is Mercury squared.
Cadillac is behind BMW, without Mini, FYI. And I'd rather have BMW's profit sheet, wouldn't you?
I think some of us are forgetting what a Cadillac is supposed to represent.
It is supposed to be America's best car's and trucks, period.
First of all, your comparison shows you dont know much about Cadillac. The STS is much cheaper than the S500 or 760il, cadillac doesn't have a car to compete with those models.
That is exactly what I mean. People compare Cadillac based on price. I have already said that a used Cadillac is probably a good deal. Its not like Wal-Mart is a bad place to shop. People buy lots of stuff there because of the price.
But, nobody goes shopping to Wal-Mart because of its ambiance. People go to Neiman Marcus to see nice things and to feel good about them self. People shop in Wal-Mart because of good prices. Its the same thing with GM cars. People shop for them because of good prices. You don't buy a GM car to reward yourself, no you buy a GM car because its a "good deal." Sure there are exceptions like Corvette Z06, but how many of them are there.
I live in a nice expensive part of Atlanta. Around here you just don't see GM cars. GM trucks and SUVs are every where, but not GM cars. You don't see Cadillacs or Buicks. What you see are Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Lexus, Volvo. These are the status cars to have. You really would look stupid in a Cadillac. People would look at you funny if you show up in a Cadillac.
I am sorry but there are many places like that in America. Every time I travel to Midwest, I am also surprised by the number of American cars on the road. When you visit south, you will be surprised that people just don't drive American cars. They have the wrong image here. Around here driving American car means that you are poor or have no taste. Its that simple.
Was talking about the DTS. Plenty of deep discounted Cadillacs. Saw some deals at a Paso Robles dealer in the local newspaper. Just pick up the local newspaper.
Comments
You mention Buick when speaking of the Lexus IS, in ergonomics and ride, which is fine. Buick seems to have generally good ergonomics.
Stating a Lexus IS and Buick drive the same is a stretch, but you have been known to stretch the truth to make a point.
Saying an e90 is 2 generations ahead of the IS is an overstatement as well, as the 2002 IS was judged more fun to drive than a 330i when R&T compared the two in a 11 Sport Sedan Test, which has the Lexus come in 3rd, BMW 2nd, G35 first.
The first IS has been lauded for it's handling and chassis quality, just not for it's back seat or interior quality. And the current one is a great car, from what I hear, it is just too automated.
If you say BMW's interiors are easier to use, much less easier on the eyes, than an Acura and Lexi, good luck to you, my friend. :confuse:
DrFill
I can't help but think of a 1955-56 Ford Mainline sedan when I look at the Camry's instrument panel. Must be those prominent circular HVAC controls.
Interestingly enough, few of their luxury models are built in the US even though those brands generally dont exist back in Japan. What does that tell you about thier faith in the abilities of their US workforce. If everything was truly about design and their engineers are so great, why can't Lexus/Infiniti/Acura models be built here?
I might not feel so bad about buying a Lexus LS430 if it was built here, preferably in a Northern state. I would definately buy a Lexus if they built the factory in North Philly!
Oh yeah, VW sells to fleets alright. STACKS AND STACKS of base model Jettas (VE) and Passats, sold to Enterprise in my area.
Really? Where do you live? I've never seen VWs in rental fleets. As far as foreign cars go, I've seen plenty of Nissans.
I think my next vehicle will be a Buick, if they continue the Rainer liner, but my wife keeps telling me I cannot own a Buick until I am 50. BS- This is another problem that will be most difficult for some domestic brands, an "image" problem with people sterotyping that Buicks and Cadillacs are for retired people.
I really hate this stereotype as I've been buying Cadillacs and Buicks since I was very young. Heck, my first car was a Buick. I learned early that Buick builds better cars! Nobody has to sell me on Buick! I really want to check out the Lucerne. I just don't want to go now with the holidays and such. If I see the Lucerne and fall in love with it, there goes my Xmas budget!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It doesn't make it any less true; Buick used to build a few cars for people with a pulse, such as the GN, GSX, and the 64-73 Riviera GS . Now all the division can do is crank out Lexus clones. Yawn. Maybe when I hit 75 a Buick will start to look good to me. You never know...
A warranty is nice, but I want a vehicle that does not break so that I do not have to spend the time and inconvenience of getting it fixed. I think that most vehicles (domestic and import) are quite reliable now. Where I see the difference is in the design and resale value of Big 3 vs. the others (less so for Daimler/Chrysler). It seems to me that especially Honda and Toyota are continually coming out with innovations and the big 3 simply make poor attempts to catch up. By and large the Big 3 have outdated styles and engineering and try to get by with lower prices. What makes it really difficult is that the big 3 are behind now and they not only have to catch up but also overtake the others to really shine and they have some really tough competition.
There's always an outlier. I sometimes see this one old guy driving around in an RSX. That's not enough to erase the RSX's image as the ride of choice for the "rhymes with spicer" crowd, and your affinity for modern renditions of a '70s lux-o-barge doesn't erase Buick's image as the ride of choice for the Geritol crowd.
These are my reasons for not buying from the big 3 based on what I know. I have not examined every model from each company so my thoughts do not apply to every model.
The U.S. car makers have hitched their stars to the big SUV and pick-up market. High priced cars with low MPG. Lots of money to buy and operate with little or no regard to conservation or environment.
I don’t see U.S. auto makers doing much to fill the need for quality, high mileage passenger car that can 30 to 40 MPG.
Ford’s statement that they would, “not sell diesels passenger cars in the U.S. unless they could sell them in all 50 states”. Is this the kind of business attitude a major corporation should have? If I can’t have it all, I won’t play? This statement smacks of greed, laziness and ignorance. Consider Ford kicked to the curb.
Styling and quality is marginal at best, but like my wife points out: All cars look the same today. Ford’s interior finish is much nicer than Chevy.
What will make me buy U.S.
Ford: Put a 2.0L or 2.5L diesel in the Ranger in both 2x4 and 4x4.
Chevy: Put a diesel in the HHR and quit using such cheap plastic.
Chrysler or Dodge has an option for a diesel in their concept Dodge Caliber due to come out next year. Never been a fan of Chrysler products, but if they start putting diesels in passenger cars they might get my attention if I can get past the ugly design.
My next car is going to be a diesel. I don’t need a SUV so the Liberty is out and I do not want nor can I afford a MB. Checking my long list of options that leaves me with, oh yes, a VW Jetta or New Bug. :surprise:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And I've toyed with the idea of buying this little gem, although I need it like I need a hole in the head.
I read all of this diesel stuff, but if you are looking to save fuel costs (not just high mileage, but costs), there are some wonderfully performing gasoline powered vehicles that are probably a safer bet.
I would also like to see more diesel engineered vehicles designed for better fuel economy and not just brute force towing.
What about a Hybrid for your applications. The Accord and Civic hybrids are interesting as is the Prius. No domestic offerings for cars though!
Walmart proves that, at the low end, you can still be the most profitable if you keep growing and take market share from hi end competitors. Everything (management, distribution, manufacturing) has to be lean and mean. Significantly you have to be young, and so without legacy costs. Probably WM went public less than 20 years ago.
Big 3 are among the oldest in the industry, saddled with enormous legacy costs (UAW contracts, retirees, unused factories). Their senior executives are paid more than their competitors'. They have quite a few brands that've outlived their usefulness, bloating the marketing and distribution costs.
There's no solution to this problem. The Germans and Japanese have no intention whatsoever of being Walmart. If anything, the Japanese are contesting for the top end. Lexus customers probably are wealthy as any group. Infiniti customers are by far the youngest among the premiums. In a few years, they're even coming after Porsche and Ferrari with their GTR, NSX and LF-A.
GM and Ford are trying real hard, but it's hard to see how they can cut costs deep and soon enough to be a profitable Walmart. Put it this way, does anyone see a solution? A few hits here and there (Corvette, 300C) won't do the trick!
They showed they CAN do it. Which means that the fact that they WON'T do this for any of the other divisions is a conscious decision probably based on their thinking they don't have the brand equity to make better products and ask more money for them. In other words, they are INTENTIONALLY staying "WalMart" in the other divisions, rather than making an effort to turn their long-term fortunes around.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Im not pleased with the fact that VW is the only game in town. If the big 3 won’t give us diesels, Im hoping Honda or Toyota will bring them to the U.S. by mid 2006.
And lweiss, yes, I have kind of run the number and it’s close $$ wise. I live in Washington state (the Washington without the lunatics) and diesel is higher than gas by about $0.20 a gallon + or - $0.05 at any given time.
Maybe I’m cutting off a little bit of nose to spite my face, but this is my only way to make a statement to the Big 3 that if you refuse to provide a growing % of consumers what they want, those consumers will get it someplace else.
I have a question for everyone:
Does this forum ever get read by people in the industry that can make a difference or that can go to the board of directors and tell them why the public is or is not buying their product?
Or is it just us people in the forum commiserating among our selves.
I have written four letters to auto makers (Honda, Toyota, GM and Ford) asking if they had any intentions of bringing diesels to the U.S. market by mid 2006. If and when I get an answer, I’ll post it hear and in the diesel forums
Actually it's quite different than Walmart.
Walmart sells.
The difficulty for GM is to de-Walmartize, it has to give up share willingly, but it's still saddled with legacy costs, no matter what it does!
The trick is de-Walmartize and hang on to your share. Instead what big 3 effectively are doing is Walmartize and lose shares, the worst of all possible worlds.
That's why the B word is in vogue among some people. Using bankruptcy protection, you can shred a lot of your legacy costs, and emerge with a new cost structure and viable operating philosophy.
VW money woes, etc...story from today.
Says GM and Ford not the onlyone's with troubles.
I never owned a VW, btw....so won't comment on their quality, good or bad, since I do not know.
As for cars, we shoot for 18K or less, because, i have a 30 year old home, got it for 38,000, and 2/3rd of an acre of land with it, in 95. I ain't paying(before financing, etc) 50% + (of what our house cost, before financing)for a car i will own maybe 6 years(drive 35-45,000 miles a year).
If I drove maybe 10,000 miles per year, then 20-30K MSRP for a car might make more sense, if I kept it 225,000+ miles, like we do our"inexpensive" cars.
Would have the thing 25 years! lol.
Not knocking anyone. if ya cna afford it, or can't, buy what ya like.
Me? rather pay our house off, and pay the extra grand or three to "modernize" our home, update stuff.
A home is a better investment than a car.
Anyhow.... Buy what ya like.
I am waiting for the Chinese BMW knock-offs for 15-20K, in 5 -10 years,
take care.not offense.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The price said " 21,000"(plus a few hundred), for "red tag" sale.
Hmmmm, was very intrigued. That is until I saw the low price is for the base model, V6.
The car we saw on tv was 27K.
:mad:
Nice car, but too much cash for us. And we try to avoid used cars these days.
I know, "certified" cars....I had an uncle once that was certifiable
Read on detnews.com(autoinsiders) that the compnay that is showing their car in jan claims they will hit stateside by 09, it sounds like.
Sounds like the Equinox(Chinese made engine in it) is doing well.
So, who knows?
Mr Bricklin said he wants 10/100K warranty on the cars, too. Note: this 10/120K did not help Isuzu, a few years back, when they tired to best Hyundai's warranty.
We shall see.
TCNO(take care/not offense).
DAV
83-94
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Say they go from 4.5 million a year to 3.5 million a year. I am seeing reports that legacy costs per unit run about $2000, give or take $500 depending on which report you read. The drop in sales would increase per-unit costs by approximately 30%, or $600 or so. If they were then building class-leading cars and trucks that everyone wanted, a $600 bump in prices would be nothing.
I am not firmly convinced that GM really knows what Americans want in their cars these days, however, or that they would be willing to try to one-up Honda and Toyota at the things those companies currently do best.
In fact both Ford and GM seem to have something against 4-cylinder engines and small cars (small vehicles in general). This puts them at a disadvantage every time gas prices go up. It also excludes them from a large important part of the automotive market.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Loren
In an early chapter, the author relates the story of Ford obtaining one of the new model 1992 Camry's and being completely blown away by the quality of it. From the materials used to the craftsmanship in assembly, the Ford folks were simply amazed by what Toyota had produced.
Naturally, Ford used that Camry as the benchmark for the new Taurus.
Naturally, they missed the mark due to cost issues.
As much as it pains me to say this, I truly believe that Ford and GM are going to have a tough road to hoe unless they are able to radically restructure their contracts with the UAW so as to cut costs. If the media reports are true and each vehicle that GM builds has $1500 in insurance costs in it, they are going to be in a world of hurt as more of their employees retire and GM has to continue full health coverage. I don't see where it would hurt for the UAW membership to pick up at least some of their health benefit costs.
They have picked up a portion of the costs. A dollar per hour in all future raises will go into a healthcare savings accounts. They are paying a portion for health benefits now and so are the retirees. By the way the $1500 added onto the vehicle also includes wages, health benefit's and retirement/401K plans, not just insurance costs. How much White Collar money is added onto the cost of a vehicle ???? Ahhhh that's a touchy issue huh ? We won't bring that up, because that's looked at in the media as okay !!!! Let's take Delphi for instance. The TOP 600 management at Delphi are still trying to pay themselves over 900 MILLION in salary and bonuses. The Federal bankruptcy judge thankfully said wait a minute. You want to void the union contracts and file for bankruptcy, but you still want to pay yourselves over 900 million ????
:mad: Rocky
It is semantics, but most of the time Wal Mart does not give big discounts. I believe that their motto is "the lowest price always" or something like that. They have cheap products that they sell cheap. They don't pretend that it is a $30 toaster marked down to $10. They call is a $10 toaster and may occasionally sell it for $8. This is different to the big 3 who will put a $30K + price tag on a vehicle and sell it to you for $20K saying that you have saved over $10K when in fact you have saved nothing.
It seems to me that the Japanese may actually have taken the "value" title since many of their cars are priced slightly higher than the domestics, but are of perceived better quality and resale value that they are actually cheaper to own or are perceived to be cheaper to own. I think that this is the real dilemma for the domestics.
Starts at about $25,000, price as shown (the way it may compete)$38,000.
I read somewhere that labor costs for GM, including benefits were $87 per HOUR. So the UAW will give $1/ hour of FUTURE RAISES towards medical. How does it work if there are pay cuts?
Not to sure about that one. Since the DTS is new for 2006 and Kelly Blue book doesn't have data on it I used a 2005 STS to test this out. According to Edmunds a base STS with a 6 cylinder had a sticker of $41,220 and an invoice of $38,181. According to KBB a base 6 cylinder STS in good condition with 15,000 miles will get $31,990 in a private sale. that is only a $6,191 (or a little more than 16.2%) off of invoice or $9,230 (or a little less than 22.4%) of MSRP. Retail price is $38,770 which is more than the invoice price (and actually more than what Edmunds is saying the TMV is).
FWIW I bought a CTS-V this summer and the trade in value per KBB is MORE than what I paid for it. Of course I got a great deal for it. But the KBB trade in value is only about $4,500 less than what the typical sales price was. Holding up pretty well I would say.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"no skill level" those jobs are. I guess he "will see" just how "easy" those jobs are to fill if the UAW goes on strike. Good Luck Steve !!!!
Now the report you read of $87 an hour. WHOA !!!!! My god I'd like to know what yellow journalist wrote that whopper. I growing up would look at my Dad's checks, and always thought we were poor. He made a hair over $55,000 last yr. at $26 an hour. You are telling me benefits are costing GM $61 an hour ?????? :confuse:
If you or anyone really honestly believe that report, I got some ocean front property in Arizona, I wanna sell ya. If interested lemme know ASAP so I can work up the paperwork
The bottom line is the newspaper journalist don't know their head from a hole. $45, $50, $60, $65, $75, are what I've seen by so called journalist. The bar has been raised to $87 an
hour now :surprise: ROTFFLMAO !!!!!
-Remember to shoot me a e-mail if your interested in that Arizona BEACH FRONT property
Rocky
No disrespect, but I gotta agree with the snakeweasel on your caddy resale figures. If you can buy em' that cheap, lemme know where. I'd seriously be interested, because that would be alot more than what my GM discount gives me off. My GM discount is roughly 15% off MSRP or approx. 2% under invoice. I'd seriously would drive or fly to a dealer giving those type of discounts on used Caddy's. I had a 01' STS and wouldn't mind a newer one. I take a 2005 AWD STS for $17K off. Just point me in the direction I need to go. Thanx-->Rocky
Today I went to a mall and I could count on one had how many GM cars I saw. Sure there were plenty of GM SUVs there, but cars maybe 4. The only place where you still see some GM cars is in the WalMart parking lot. I guess that people will lower incomes still buy GM cars simply because they are cheap. I guess that a used GM car is a good value.
I don't know how GM managed to get this WalMart image. I guess Chevy should change their slogan from "Heart Beat of America" to "Heart Beat of Midwest", because people outside of Midwest just don't buy GM cars anymore. A friend of mine had a Chevy Impala as a company car and I remember that he was almost embarrassed driving it. The first words out of his mouth were:
1) Its a company car.
2) Its not as bad as it looks.
I think that it will be very hard for GM to over come the discount store image that they have. The reason discount stores like Walmart do well is that people buy products there that don't say WalMart on them. When you buy a toaster from WalMart it says "Black & Decker" on the toaster, not WalMart. Nobody knows how much you paid for the toaster or where you purchased it. In case you have not noticed, Walmart does not sell too many T-shirts with "Every Day Low Prices" printer on them.
When you drive around in a GM car, it shows to people that you buy bargain basement cars. I am sorry, but that is the image GM cars have. To me driving around in a GM car is the same as walking around in a WalMart T-Shirt.
I hadn't heard that. Interesting.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The GTO, Grand Prix GXP, Buick Lucerne, Chevy Impala SS, also. The Saab 9-3 and 9-5, Saturn Aura. :surprise:
I gotta disagree with you on that one pal.
Rocky
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-05-DEVILLE-LOW-MILES-FACT-WARRANTY-SAVE-20-G- RAND_W0QQitemZ4597642232QQcategoryZ6146QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The Grand Caravan is just as good as any foreign brand and has more nice features for less money.
Now really which car would you rather be seen in Mercedes S500 or Cadillac STS. I think that all people who don't work for GM would rather drive a Mercedes S500 or BMW 750 instead of Cadillac STS. Sure people buy STS, but only because its cheaper. Cadillac has a long way to go before people buy it strictly its worth. Now people buy Cadillacs due to price, and that is called a Bargain.
Anyway when I started calling the big 3 the auto Walmart, I meant it in general. I'm sure you can find things at Walmart that are more expensive than at Macy's!
I dont work for GM but I would rather have an STS than an S500. The STS is likely to be more reliable, more exclusive and it handles better. On top of all that I am not crazy about the interior of the current S class. Its no better than that of the much cheaper C class.
Saturn is getting three new products in 2006 and all three promise to be among GM's best vehicles. Especially the Aura which addresses the complaints of most import fanatics.
GMC's sales are doing fine and will be bolstered by new large SUVs and pickups in 2006.
That leaves only Buick and Pontiac and I believe pontiac will be fine in 2006 due to the availability of the torrent and the full G6 line (coupe, sedan, drop top). So really that only leaves Buick on shaky ground.
That goes for Ford too, I doubt if Zephyr will meet any kind of success. Ditto Nissan! I35, based on Maxima, was a failure. ES is a success, but then normal rules don't apply to Toyota!
Who lives on Fantasy Island?
After a post like that, you've got Bungaloo #1, Mr. Rourke!
ALL OF GM IS ON SHAKY GROUND!! ALL, NOT SOME, ALL!!
Toyota was all but ready to pass GM in sales in October AND November, and without GM fleet sales, would've done just that! They already caught Ford!
With Colorados, Malibus, and Cobalts the Mags say can't touch Hyundais, Chevy is sucking much more than wind. These "efforts" are in major classes.
Saturn's Aura has a tough road to hoe, as they have one of the worst lead-ins (Ion) in the industry, a car that might be inferior to it's predecessor!
If they sell 125k, they should run a Block Party from here to Brooklyn!
The Solstice makes Pontiac what? The G6 is a dud. They have no small sedan. What is a Grand Prix at this point? They sell no trucks. The Vibe is a Toyota. Is there anything there? I don't see it.
Saturn has been dead for several years. And cars like the Aura and Sky will give it a faint pulse, but it will take much more to make me a Saturn believer.
GMC is Mercury squared.
Cadillac is behind BMW, without Mini, FYI. And I'd rather have BMW's profit sheet, wouldn't you?
I think some of us are forgetting what a Cadillac is supposed to represent.
It is supposed to be America's best car's and trucks, period.
Luxurious (Is a CTS or Escalade luxurious?)
Desireable (Nothing needs to be said here)
Precious (Are we having fun yet?)
Well-made (Stack up well here)
And Valuable (Damn!)
Who made that song, 1 out of 5 ain't bad......
DrFill
That is exactly what I mean. People compare Cadillac based on price. I have already said that a used Cadillac is probably a good deal. Its not like Wal-Mart is a bad place to shop. People buy lots of stuff there because of the price.
But, nobody goes shopping to Wal-Mart because of its ambiance. People go to Neiman Marcus to see nice things and to feel good about them self. People shop in Wal-Mart because of good prices. Its the same thing with GM cars. People shop for them because of good prices. You don't buy a GM car to reward yourself, no you buy a GM car because its a "good deal." Sure there are exceptions like Corvette Z06, but how many of them are there.
I live in a nice expensive part of Atlanta. Around here you just don't see GM cars. GM trucks and SUVs are every where, but not GM cars. You don't see Cadillacs or Buicks. What you see are Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Lexus, Volvo. These are the status cars to have. You really would look stupid in a Cadillac. People would look at you funny if you show up in a Cadillac.
I am sorry but there are many places like that in America. Every time I travel to Midwest, I am also surprised by the number of American cars on the road. When you visit south, you will be surprised that people just don't drive American cars. They have the wrong image here. Around here driving American car means that you are poor or have no taste. Its that simple.
Loren