What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

snakeweasel

My first car was a Cornet with the slant 6 in it. The car was more rust than metal (but hey I was in high school and the car was cheep. But man that engine was great.

snakeweasel

To tell you the truth a 3 series is rather a pain for me to drive, just can't seem to fit in one. Anyways I love the CTS and while it won't quite get me the 30 MPG, it will keep me in front of you. And I can fit in it

grbeck

gtee: GM has to understand one very simple thing. What they are doing now does not work. It’s a simple statement. If what they were doing worked, then they would not be in this mess. So they have to change what they are doing. Making small changes to existing cars and giving them new names is not going to cut it. GM needs to come up with a fresh approach. Look GM's fortunes stated to go down hill when they switched to FWD cars.

GM is still feeling the effects of its first brush with bankruptcy in 1992. It had to cut back investment in new models throughout the 1990s.

Plus, I've read that Ron Zarella has said that he wishes he had invested MORE in trucks and SUVs when he was heading the North American automotive unit. As it is, he supposedly killed a rear-wheel-drive Buick based on a Holden platform and a new generation of Camaro/Firebird.

GM needs new platforms for its passenger cars - and I'm sure that management knows this. It's just that cash is short, and, for better or worse, the company is betting the farm on the new GMT-900 platform, which will spawn the next-generation of full-size pickups and SUVs.

It is worth noting that the Epsilon and Delta platforms are competitive. GM, however, needs to stop "dumbing them down" for the American market.

gtee: Why GM cannot build a decent RWD car. Yes I mean a proper Chevy Impala based on modified Sigma platform. I think that there would be many takers for a RWD Impala with V8 engine for $30K. This is something that Japanese just don't offer.

I'm sure GM could build a very good rear-wheel-drive car for the sub-$30,000 class. The Sigma-based Cadillacs are earning good reviews. But right now the company is betting on the GMT-900 platform as its salvation. There just isn't enough money to do everything at this point.

geoffdgti

lemko tells us:
I don't want to rain on your parade and I hope your experience with VW is better than the ones I've had. VW is the perfect car for the masochist who is too proud for whips and chains.

I have 104,000 miles on a 2001 1.8T GTI. In the last 50,000 miles, I've done nothing to it other than scheduled maintanence. Nada. Zip.

The car had the standard VW glitches that were recalls.... the window regulators. The coil packs. I knew about the windows falling into the door problem before I bought the car and I never experience coil pack failure. During normal service, they replaced an oil line to the turbo, an oxygen sensor, a turbo diverter valve, and reprogrammed the ECU to correct an engine misfire fault code. My only out of pocket expense since I've owned the car has been rear brakes & rotors at 53K and a $25 spray shield I shredded bottoming the car out on a frozen snowplow bank at the end of the driveway. I bought the 100K VW OEM extended warranty and never made a claim.

I was looking for a 30 mpg commuter car with some soul and the VW has fit the bill. It's fun to drive. I'm 6'3" and it has plenty of headroom and legroom even with the sunroof. The interior is much nicer than a comparable Japanese or American car. When the 2006 model GTI shows up in the dealer lots in Feburary, I'll likely buy another one.

rockylee

I am happy you like VW, but in my opinion the interior of them isn't better than a $13k Carolla. (my opinion)

dieselone

I know VW has had it's quality issues. Ironically their have been two Jetta and two Passats in my family since 2000 and all have been very reliable and their owners just rave about how much they love their VWs. I did have a 2000 Jetta TDI that was an absolute pleasure to own. Particularly, the 50+mpg.

I'll take diesel over hybrid anyday.

dieselone

I am happy you like VW, but in my opinion the interior of them isn't better than a $13k Carolla. (my opinion)

One of us needs our eyes checked.

All I know, is when I had my Jetta I compared the interior quality to my Dad's Park Ave of the same year and quality the feel of the controls and switches in the Park Ave looked and felt like they were designed on an "etch-a-sketch".

rockylee

agree, but compared to Toyota's and Honda's in the same price bracket, I am wanting you to go get a check-up. :P

dieselone

agree, but compared to Toyota's and Honda's in the same price bracket, I am wanting you to go get a check-up. :P

LOL

Good thing we don't socialized medicine, or I'd have to wait 3 months to get an appointment. Just kidding.....

blueguydotcom

it will keep me in front of you. And I can fit in it

Not sure what you mean as the CTS handles like a boat. But if it makes you happy to live in that delusional world, go for it...

snakeweasel

I mean I will get in front from the start and stay in front of you. And no it doesn't handle like a boat.

bigo

Im a huge GM fan.. but its true.. they those two platforms to use and make better cars.. and unfortunately there not.. and about the GMT 900's being there salvation. we still have to see.. maybe we are all going to be amazed

blueguydotcom

I mean I will get in front from the start and stay in front of you. And no it doesn't handle like a boat.

That's amusing and totally unrealistic. I've driven the CTS...for my driving style it's a boat with wheels. Soft suspension, lots of nose dive in corners, lousy manual tranny.

Again, to each his own. I value handling and corning prowess over a badge.

gogogodzilla

I would have loved to have waited for the new Volkswagen GTI/Audi A3, but I HAD to buy in January. I was coming back from South Korea and had no car whatsoever, so I really couldn't wait for Volkwagen/Audi to get off their lazy butts and release the new versions.

Though, I will be test-driving the new GTI as soon as it's released.

:P

gogogodzilla

My Volkswagen dealership experiences have been quite good. It's been regular maintainance and a new radiator (had a rock hit fly up into the engine compartment and penetrate the radiator).

The dealership's given me two free oil changes just for being a 'loyal' customer.

Though I'll never forgive them for issuing me a Chevy Trailblazer as a loaner car when the radiator was being fixed.

That experience alone has convinced me to never buy a GM product. It was everything I DON'T like in a vehicle.

But then, that's what GM makes... vehicles that are opposite to my wants and likes.

gogogodzilla

Well, dang. You and I have the same outlook on how cars are suppose to be.

Tight suspension, a sense for the road, great handling and cornering. Power, too!

Which is why I can't stand the Viper. It simply has too much engine for the suspension. It's great on a straightaway, but G-d forbid you find yourself trying to take a turn.

goodegg

Before we bought our Odyssey we decide to give Chevy a chance so we checked out the Trailblazer. My wife was in it 30 seconds and said she didn't like the way it felt. Then I drove it and within 20 seconds I said 'let's take it back to the dealership'. This thing felt loose and uncomfortable. Then we looked at a Tahoe real quick and chuckled at the 80s look and feel of the interior.

The next day we checked out the Odyssey and knew right away this was the vehicle for our family.

Wagoner wants the public to just take a look at GM and give them a chance. Chevy just can't hang with Honda.

vsaxena

American car makers are dominated by suits. Most German and Japenese car makers have a lot of geeks. Over the long run the Geeks will win over the suits.

GM would rather offer $2K in incentives rather than invest that in R&D/manufacturing to produce a car which will sell itself for $2K more.

There is absolutely nothing the American car makers can be considered a leader in (except for incentives). If I want reliability I go Japanese, if I want performance I go German. What do I go American for?

passat_2002

A brain transplant, I should think.

gtee

GM does not want to develop new cars because they don't have money to spend. So consumers have to buy old stale products that GM is producing. GM thinks that its salvation is in Full size SUVs and trucks. I think that Full Size SUVs will go the way of full size customized vans in 1980s. You remember all of those custom vans that were all craze in 1980s. Now imagine GM is betting its future on full size SUVs and trucks. Every thing is pointing that this is a loosing proposition.

Here are some reasons:

1) Gas prices will force people not to buy full size SUVs. On top of it there are so many cheap one-year-old SUVs on the market. Just check your local newspaper.

2) Full size SUVs are just not cool anymore. Hybrids are the new cool thing. Many people who do not need a full size SUV purchased them just to look cool. Now when you see a housewife in a Hummer H2, she looks ridiculous not cool.

3) Toyota is building a brand new Truck factory in Texas. They will produce and sell 200,000 trucks per year. This will no doubt come from GM's market share. Nissan will also get its act together and also sell about 100,000 Titans per year.

4) Housing market will cool soon. The number of people working in construction industry will be reduced. Who do you think buys most of full size pickup trucks? It’s the sub contractors like plumbers and electricians.

5) Truck buyers are very loyal. GM will have a hard time to convince current Ford and Dodge owners to move to a brand new Chevy. They are not so different from the current models that people will abandon their trucks in droves.

callmedrfill

The used truck market is HUGE, and smart shoppers will take advantage of early-trades and off-lease deals.

ANOTHER mistake by GM is the total disregard for the Minivan.

The only company that has as bad a track record is Toyota, and they certainly have gotten there act together to sell 150k plus, outselling the Odyssey last year!

GM's minivans stink! Always have, and apparently always will.

If trucks were going to cool off, having a nice set of minivans would help soften the blow. Maybe people want to carry a lot, but get better than 15 MPG? Minivans are not sexy, but you are doing your customers/business a disservice by not producing a worthy product.

Not that GM would do that.... :sick:

DrFill

gmfan

Who wins more categories: the 0-60 mph dash, 1/4 mi dash, 60-0 braking, and slalom (lateral) test? I bet the CTS beats the 3 series Bemmer. However, that Beemer manual tranny is legendary and very slick. If the CTS could copy that manual tranny, you would be talking a real slick vehicle.

I was talking to my neighbor the other day and I was kidding around asking him what BMW stood for. Guess what, he was ignorant and could not say. I think that is sad.

andre1969

is that it competes with the 3-series on price, but size-wise it's more like a 5-series. It may still be a great-handling car, but it's going to feel bulkier and more cumbersome than a 3-series.

snakeweasel

What its unrealistic that I don't agree with you? Well I have never driven a 3 series simply because I can't fit into the thing, but I prefer mine over the 5.

And if you prefer handling and cornering over a badge why are you in a BMW other cars can do it better for less.

snakeweasel

I wouldn't consider that a problem, I would consider that a plus since the 3 series is way to small for someone of my size.

gmfan

How can you say Hybrids are the "new cool thing". Hybrids only offer around 8% better fuel econmony. Not worth it my opinion. The Displacement on Demand that Chrysler and GM have developed for V-8s are the cool thing and get better fuel economy gain Hybrids. You will start seeing Diesels making a comeback in trucks and SUV's before people jump on the Hybrid bangwagan. Guess who wasting their money on Hybrids...the Japanese. The Europeans and Americans are not really fooling around much with R&D on Hybrids. You will also see LP (Liquid Petroleum) penetrating the U.S. market like it is doing in Europe. LP gets 100% better MPG than regular gas. Imagine driving your favorite car with a V-8 getting double MPG??? It is coming!!! We just need to have a little civil war to make the fat cats know we are serious about LP

andre1969

Personally I wouldn't consider it a problem either, because I'd value the extra room and size of the CTS. However, for someone who REALLY wants what a 3-series has to offer, I could understand them preferring it to the CTS.

lemmer

If I was in that market, I think I would take a 300C over a CTS. From a dynamic and quality standpoint, the CTS isn't in the BMW's class.

veliger

Why GM cannot build a decent RWD car. Yes I mean a proper Chevy Impala based on modified Sigma platform. I think that there would be many takers for a RWD Impala with V8 engine for $30K. This is something that Japanese just don't offer.

Do you really think GM would sell more RWD Impalas than FWD ones?? I know here in the snow belt I don't see many 300's.

GM has concluded, like everyone else except DCX, that there is a very small market for RWD cars under $30K. A colleague asked me at lunch yesterday, knowing I'm a car nut, "What's with this return to RWD, I can't imagine anyone wanting a RWD car in Maine". I explained to him that the enthusiasts magazines liked them for track testing and handling at the limit, something almost no one does in the real world on real roads.

By the way, there is only one "successful" RWD mass market car under 30K (and I don't know how many are really under 30K, the last 300 I saw tested was almost $40K, OUCH!!). Looks like the Charger is not doing very well thus far. Could it be that the 300 has saturated the market for 25 - 35K family sedans? I know nobody personally in this market who want s RWD. If they want RWD they buy a sport sedan (one friend has a BMW 3 series) or they buy a purpose built sports car (my brother has a early 90's Z-28). All of the weight, packaging, efficiency and low traction liabilities that ended the RWD family sedan era in the 80's still exist today.

http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml#table

nippononly

"The Europeans and Americans are not really fooling around much with R&D on Hybrids"

Wait, aren't BMW, GM, and Chrysler working frantically on a joint hybrid project? GM hopes to release its first hybrid model next year as an '07, doesn't it?

"Hybrids only offer around 8% better fuel econmony"

GM's "hybrid" trucks will only get you an 8% gain in fuel economy. The Prius gets the buyer a 50% increase in fuel economy over the 4-cyl Camry (slightly larger) or a 30% increase over a Corolla (slightly smaller).

GM is late to the hybrid game and it knows it. They have done a major about-face on the hybrid issue earlier this year, just read the press releases.

Ford is chuckling all the way to the bank with its sales (which were wait-listed for a long time) of the Escape hybrid. Now it has plans for several more hybrid models in the next few years.

Now if diesel can get its act together in the U.S., you may be right that it would be to all the manufacturers' advantage to use more diesels in their large trucks than trying to go hybrid in every segment.

reddogs

Oh my goodness I have to laugh when I read the post.....
"I have 104,000 miles on a 2001 1.8T GTI. In the last 50,000 miles, I've done nothing to it other than scheduled maintanence. Nada. Zip."

That part is great sounds like a average car that reached 100k, then I read the next part......

"The car had the standard VW glitches that were recalls.... the window regulators. The coil packs. I knew about the windows falling into the door problem..."

You bought a car knowing about all these 'glitches' and suffered through them, all I can say is I feel your pain.

My Honda Accord is sitting outside with 220k and I just put in oil and gas and go, and all original except for hoses, belts, tires etc.. and my Toyota trucks are all over 140k and still all original just gas/oil and go.....

Now consider the BMW 325 I had, that every switch, knob, button, electrical part was giving me trouble before 90k and I had to give it away (FREE) as it was not worth the trouble and pain for the 'little pleasure' it gave... :surprise:

I emphatize with all the VW owners, someday you will get a quality car thats reliable, but it may be a looooonnnng time waiting...........

lemmer

FREE 325!

Next time you have a problem car, contact me please.

reddogs

I posted here and no one believed it so I gave it to a friend....he's still complaining...the radiator and A/C went..... :sick:

The pleasure was quick and the pain is still with him....

blueguydotcom

However, that Beemer manual tranny is legendary and very slick. If the CTS could copy that manual tranny, you would be talking a real slick vehicle.

Beemer is a bike. A BMW car is called a bimmer. BMW transmissions are horrible but not quite as bad as the stick in the CTS. I've driven both cars (own one of them) and there's no comparison. The CTS is what it is...a Caddy built to the tastes of Caddy-type drivers. It's more of a TL/C class type of car.

reddogs

My feeling is Acura is passing or has passed BMW as the car of choice when the need for speed and road handling is a major factor, BMW seems so old and tired...what is your opinion....

sls002

I have owned two GM cars with stick shifts and did not like either one. GM's automatics have been good.

blueguydotcom

And if you prefer handling and cornering over a badge why are you in a BMW other cars can do it better for less.

Find that car for me. I've driven everything under the sun and no car in the under 45k range can match the handling, refinement, ergonomics, luxury, power, efficiency of a 3 series. Not one.

G35 - fun, but engine is harsh, tranny bad, seating position high and it gets lousy mileage.
TL – large, heavy, FWD torque steer.
Mazdaspeed6 – poor gearing, lousy mileage, busy highway drive, lots of understeer
CTS – large, harsh engine/tranny, boat-like handling
IS350 – numb handling, no manual, understeer galore, intrusive traction control, bad ergonomics, too-soft seating with no sport bolsters
A4 – soft handling, nose-heavy, burderned with lousy AWD or FWD system
Passat – large, ungainly, FWD, front-plowing in corners, poor weight distribution
STi – super fast but like driving a go-cart
Evo – see sti
Legacy – poor gearing, lousy mileage, downgraded interior, harsh, unrefined engine, floaty handling
Saab – lol
Zephyr – fwd, no manual, ‘nuff said
Accord Coupe V6 – quick, luxurious, but understeer and torque steer problems matched with numb roadfeel
S2000 – quick reflexes but no luxury at all and lousy gas mileage
Miata – quick, fun, but too small and downgraded
Solstice – rofl, doesn’t even have a trunk to speak of
300c/Charger – gas guzzler tax on fast versions, heavy, cheap interior, boat with wheels
Mustang – nothing nearing luxury and live axle
GTO – rofl
350z – bad brakes (typical nissan), 2 seater, bad gas mileage
C class – soft, poor handling

I want most: smoothness, power when I drop from 6th to 3rd, 30+ mpg on freeway drives, near telepathic handling/roadfeel, RWD, 4 seats, decent trunk, seats that I sit in - not on, a growl from the engine when I push it to 6k rpm but otherwise absolute smoothness the rest of the time, a 6 speed manual/dsg.

There's only one car on the market that offers all that. Trust me, I'm trying to find something else and it just doesn't exist...

reddogs

and I'll meet you there with the TL – large, heavy, FWD torque steer, and we'll check it out who has more fun... :shades:

Even the RSX 4 Cyl, VTEC 2.0 L, 155 HP or the TSX 4 Cyl, VTEC 2.4 L, 205 HP would give more pleasure with less pain than the BMW....

gmfan

What about a Volvo? I agree with your comments about disliking front wheel drive handling - I hate the torque steer problem. BMW's are fun, but can be a money pit when it comes to electrical problems. I have owned two, a 1988 325IS and a 1978 635. I really do like their sporty clutch and manual gear box, but I used to put black electrical tape over the indicator lights that were constantly glowing! It was embarrasing when you have a date in car, and 3 or 4 red inicator lights are on.

Volvo makes some sport rear wheeled drive vehicles. I have a friend that owns a European Repair Shop and he insists Volvo's are the best of the European (BMW, Jaguar, Porsche, VW, Audi, etc)

gmfan

You are correct. GM manual tranmission needs work. Their Automatics are good (at least in my experience)

anythngbutgm

:confuse: Where? because I want one...

blueguydotcom

to each his own. The TL could, in the right hands, easily outdo many, many cars. but in my hands I'd be very unhappy...especially with the car pull hard to the side every time I hit WOT out of a corner (which is often).

It's not all about performance. It's about the whole package. The RSX is an economy car and feels like one. The TSX is a cute, amusing sedan...but it's not my kind of car.

That's why they make so many different kinds of cars. I heard someone tout Ford's new 3.5 because it uses 87 octane gas. Honestly, that wouldn't weigh on my decision but to some folks it's a big deal.

anythngbutgm

Sir, you sound like a true BMW enthusiast IMO. One who can respect the technologies and advantages that the BMW has to offer over the competition. And your points prove that logically and maturely. :shades:

inajoong

I really like American cars, especially GMs(why does this feel so awkward..). Anyways, between my pop and i, we've had an 84 Chevy Celebrity wagon, a 93 Olds Cutlass (which still runs GREAT!!), and a 94 Olds Achieva. All those 3 cars were great and all went for at least 120k without major break downs, just some leaky gaskets here and there, but for some reason we both went foreign all of a sudden. My pop now has a Hyundai XG350, and I have a VW Jetta. In between those 3 GMs there were couple foreign cars, a Renault & a Hyundai and both were CRAP, and I vowed to NEVER go forein again. Then why did we go back to foreign cars? I don't know!!! This is the truth, I have no idea!! I really love the plush ride and the low end torque of the Olds vs. the hard ride and no torque of the VW, but my next car will again be a foreign. Why? I don't know!! I know this is weird, but I just don't friggin know...
I THINK it might be the design. I sat in a Grand Prix the other day and laughed out loud at the styling of the interior. It's just too dorky!

I have a friend with a Grand Cherokee(at 20k miles it's been to the dealer at least 5 times) and he says the similar thing. He wants to love the American cars but the danm American cars wont let him. Sort of like that one movie Jerry McGuire, "help me help you"

Hey GM! Help me help you!

vwdriver2

I can relate to everything you say. I don't have a problem with American made cars...it just turns out that I just like the design of particular foreign cars better. For the majority of us, its design that plays the biggest role in what car we buy. Before buying my 06 Passat, I also wanted to give GM, Ford, and Chrysler a shot...but when you sit in them...you can't help but laugh sometimes, especially after owning a German and Japanese car. I sat in Ford Fusion and felt 10 years older automatically...Some of the American styling just makes no sense to me. Maybe it does to others, but I just do get why you need a mammoth size dashboard??? So, I agree...some of us would really like to buy American cars...but they just don't let us...When I bought my wife's suv..I testdrove a Jeep Liberty and 10 minutes later..a Toyota RAV4...what a difference...I bought the RAV4 without hesitation

nippononly

but just try sitting in the new Grand Cherokee, ONLY JUST redesigned, and ask yourself if you would really settle for that terrible interior for FIVE MINUTES after plunking down $30 grand of your hard-earned...

BMW took flak in one mag review I read the other day, for of all things the manual shifter in the new 3-series. They called it rubbery, and easily bested by many Honda vehicles. Personally, I think BMWs are overpriced, but good cars apart from that.

Funny that this thread is turning into "why I love my (Japanese or German) car so much". Maybe that is in its own way an answer to the question this thread poses...

fljoslin

I had a '92 Protege LX. My wife still misses that car. Ran it for 10 years and 160,000 miles before I gave it to my brother-in-law who ran it another 15,000.
They must have improved them a lot in the two years from 1990 because my wife' Protege LX did leave us stranded. What do you do when you are going to a Cardinals game in downtown St. Louis and the windows don't roll up? Go home.

fljoslin

I THINK it might be the design. I sat in a Grand Prix the other day and laughed out loud at the styling of the interior. It's just too dorky!

If this was the only game in town it would not be dorky. It is dorky because there are better options available. The Import car companies cater better to American tastes than the American car companies do.
I think the Big 3 are used to saying "take what we give you" while the Imports say "what do you want."

altair4

Technically, you weren't stranded...

andre1969

and the interior actually doesn't bother me that much. It's still a bit too plasticky, but overall I think everything lines up much better than the '03 and earlier model. I guess the quality of the materials hasn't improved all the much, but just how it's assembled has improved.

My biggest beef with the GP (and W-body in general) is that I can't fit in the back seat of them. The Impala's not too bad, but the smaller ones like the GP, LaCrosse, and the older Century/Regal, Intrigue, and Lumina, always felt cramped to me.

Oh, and I'm not that crazy about the exterior style of the '04+ Grand Prix. I actually preferred the '97-03 style. I thought it was a good looker, but just needed work in the interior and fit/finish areas.