From Edmunds News quoting Wards on the 10 best powertrains of the year.
"DIG technology is the most important development the powertrain sector has seen in this decade," said Bill Visnic, Ward's senior technical editor.
As an example, Ward's praised the DIG technology in the Lexus 3.5-liter V6, which delivers 306 horsepower with a fuel-economy rating of 21 mpg in the city and 28 mpg on the highway.
Until the Big 3 are committed to build a car that is great as a Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus or BMW, the big 3 will fall. The Acura TL is the best total value on the market from what I've read on Edmunds. However saying that the Lexus IS 350 might be the best car your money can buy, because of the performance, styling, refinement, and latest technology not found in any other car under $50K. Not to mention it's high residual value, which will make a lease very attractive. I am seriously thinking about a Lexus IS 350 or GS 450 hybrid as my next car purchase. I am dissapointed to hear that the Pontiac G-8 won't be released until 2008. I'm basically getting told that the interior will be basic like the current GTO. Yeah a true drivers car, but I also want my DVD 7.1 surround sound, AC seats, Voice Recognition with Navi. all of which will not make it in the G-8 If GM wants to build basic cars, well then they won't get my buisness. I have repeatedly demand from them to atleast be as good as the Asians in technology and creature features. I had hope for the G-8, but it's going to be a rebadged Holden Commadore with pontiac grill styling with MSRP I'd guess around $40 large.
I am just really dissapointed. It's too bad Wagoner and the other CEO's won't be competitive. The next generation CTS isn't due out until 2008 either. I am not expecting much more than a redone interior, lacking the creature features that are expected in that price bracket. The BMW 3 series might be a true drivers car, but compared to Lexus or Acura, it's not worth getting a car that just handles good. I'm not going to be driving twisty's every trip, but will use my Voice Recognition and DVD surround sound every single day I use the car. Not to mention the AC seats in the summer time.
I guess if you never had or driven a car with such features and technology, you won't know what your missing. The Lexus and Acura automobiles as much as I hate to admit it are superior pieces of transportation for the money you spend. The Big 3 looks like they are going to continue to get caught looking, and strike out. It's really too bad, the workers of these once great company's are the ones that are really going to suffer.
You just wrote the exact thought I had this morning, except I thought that Americans have been hating America since the mid 1970's.
You have the answer to this topic thread -- What will it take for consumers to buy American again? They are going to have to start liking America again; start thinking that American ideas and products are good.
This thought cannot go uncontested. Only the threatened feel as you do. There are a very large number of us, your fellow citizens, who grew up in the same time frame who embrace change. The more the better. My life from the 50's onward is much better than it was.
I'll go back to the industry I was in for 30 yrs. The US steel industry is much different and much more dynamic now than when I started in it in the 70's. This is precisely the situation the Big 2+C are in now.
Change and adapt or get out of the way before you get run over.
I don't really understand your reply. I have no problem with change (moved 6 times in 8 years between two different continents). I was simply commenting on the general feeling I get from people I talk to as well as from the media. I wasn't even alive in the '60's, but from what I have learned, people seemed to think the US was better then than they do now. Is this nostalgia? Possibly. But, today, it seems so many people think that American ideals and systems are bad, it seems natural that they would think American products are bad too. (Maybe my view is tainted because I was in Europe for a while during the Iraq problems and I listened to their opinions.)
I'm glad your life was better from the '50's onwards -- are you trying to to say that you, personally, still have a positive outlook on the general idea of "America"? I was just trying to provide an answer for the forum topic, not debate on if change is good or not. (Which, by the way, it is good, because the change/increase of foreign pressure has forced American car manufactures to be more competitive.)
"I think people should be required to test drive "the competition". If this would happen, the market would change significantly. It would respond to buyers wants."
I strongly agree. I was willing to give GM the benefit of the doubt until after attending a GM AutoinMotion event. Unfortunately, it reinforced all the negative reviews in the media.
(It wasn't all bad... I really liked the way to the CTS drove, more than the Acura TL. Factor in the interior though, and I'd get a TL. But I liked the TSX more, and that was the only segment in which I felt GM was close.)
In the last two years - after many years of mediocrity - I see improvements and competitiveness. It's about time.
are you trying to to say that you, personally, still have a positive outlook on the general idea of "America"?
absolutley.
I was just trying to provide an answer for the forum topic, not debate on if change is good or not. (Which, by the way, it is good, because the change/increase of foreign pressure has forced American car manufactures to be more competitive.)
I agree wholeheartedly here too. Pressure is normally the main force to have things change for the better. Some people will be hurt and some will be better off. I will adapt and be better off. That's our capitalistic society.
The new GM/Ford will be stronger if they bite the bullet and cut loose their non-productive baggage. This includes non-producing plants and personel and management. There is no inalienable right to be paid not to work or to have all your health insurance paid forever or to get bonus' when losing market share.
People claim that America is going down hill and American cars are a symbol of this. I say its all bunch of BS. Why is it that when I travel to India I can buy Crest Toothpaste and Tide laundry detergent? Every body in China uses Microsoft Windows running on Dell PC with Intel Inside. When I go to movies in Germany I can see Matrix and Arnold and Tom Cruise are big stars. People in Europe dream of driving a Harley Davidson and wearing Levi's jeans. They love America and want to go to Disney world.
It’s the American Cars that people don't like. Please lets not confuse American cars with American way of life. I have posted many comments about the difference between good American companies and Mediocre American Companies. American cars have gotten so bad that even Americans don't what to buy them. Do we really expect other people in other countries to purchase products that we our self don't want?
Maybe during WW2 GM made airplanes and tanks on the same production line as cars, but now its different. The tanks and airplanes have gotten so complicated that you cannot just convert a truck factory to make them. Remember Ford had problems to convert their Explorer plant to make new style in 2002 because they were 2" too wide. It seems people forgot that new Explorers were 2" wider then old generation and that cause a lot of damage to tires.
I think that as Americans we should not fly on any Airbus airplane that Northwest owns. We should only get on a good American Boeing 737. That will keep our airplane factories running and keep America Safe. Cars they just don't matter that much. What you want to drive to Japan?
Yes, yes. And if it's so important to buy American...
Should not GM, Ford, Chrylser be building exactly what the American consumer wants?
Or did the slogan, "The customer is always right" somehow become divorced from the Big 3?
Face it, your argument is that Americans should buy a domestic car... because the Big 3 deserve your money more than you do. Not because they actually make anything worth buying.
They just need your money, so give it to them.
To that, I say, "Nuts!"
Make a car that fits my wants and needs and I'll buy it from you. Ignore my wants and needs and I'll ignore you right back.
I think it would be VERY useful to the Big 3 to read things like the family ownership histories we post here to determine what they might be able to do to get buyers back.
So here's my story of how the wife and I wound up owning Datsun/Nissan products since 1979...
First car I remember riding in was my Dad's 1952 Plymouth. I can still see the day we went to trade it in on a shiny, brand new 1960 Chevy Impala. That was a great car. Trips to Florida and Maine. We put over 100,000 miles on that car when we traded it in on a '65 Impala. My Grandfather got an identical '65 at the same time. Both were MAJOR lemons. Within 6 months, trannies failed on both, and Dad jumped ship to a '66 Chrysler Newport (which turned into MY first car) That was a magnificent beast and I drove that until it retired at 228,000 miles. Along the way, Dad picked up a 1974 Vega which drove him to try a Honda because of his last two Chevy experiences.
After I reluctanly retired the Newport, I inherited the Vega and lasted for a year with it. The future wife had gotten a new job and was looking for her first new car in 1979 and we went to look at EVERYTHING. (I'm good at shopping with other people's money :P ) She was thinking compacts to save money, and the bottom line was important. We test drove at Ford, Chevy, and Datsun, and for what she was going to get for the money, the B210 hatchback won out. After the second rear side window fell out of the Vega, I was ready for my first new vehicle and looked at all the choices again and went with a 1981 Nissan Sentra. There was a wedding, and when it was time to trade, neither of our cars had done ANYTHING to make us think about trading for anything other than a Nissan. And that's the way it's been all along. We've had 8 Datsun/Nissans since 1979... 1980 Datsun B210 1981 Sentra 1983 Sentra 1986 Stanza Wagon 1987 4x4 pickup 1991 Sentra 1996 Sentra 2001 Altima
All 5 speeds, combined mileage over 1.3 million miles, and the only major issue I had in all those miles was a head gasket going on the pickup at about 70,000 miles. Trade in values have been amazing. (I know, I could have saved even more by selling them myself) I've been dealing with the same salesman all this time and a great service department for regular maintenance.
So I guess the moral of the story is that the American brands not only are going to have to offer me a quality product at a good price, but they're probably going to have to get lucky and have me run into a vehicle that's enough of a problem that I'm going to start to look elsewhere.
If Brand A is working for you, Brand B has to do something special to get you to switch, doesn't it??
I think that as Americans we should not fly on any Airbus airplane that Northwest owns. We should only get on a good American Boeing 737. That will keep our airplane factories running and keep America Safe.
I used to work for Boeing, and I remember at one time, they wanted us to refuse to get on a non-Boeing airplane when we did business travel. They even had a little chant for us... "If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!" I couldn't even tell a Boeing plane from another if I didn't read the name...I was in their aerospace division and worked for NASA. I only had to travel by plane once while I worked for Boeing. I'm sure my supervisors would've been positively giddy (NOT) if I refused to fly because of the plane!
Sorry, but have to disagree with your comment statement in your last paragraph stating Lexus and Acura "are superior pieces of transporation for the money you spend.". My wife has an 2002 Lexus RX 300 we bought brand new back in 2002. As of today, we only have 22,000 miles on it. I wish we had leased it, because I am ready to dump it. Here is the list of items it has been taken back to the dealership for
1. Factory Brake Pads were digging in the rotars causing warping and shuddering when braking. Lexus dealership acknowledges they are aware of this problem, and install "softer" pads. Problem fixed.
2. Constant "pinging" under the hood at idle. Dealership insults me saying I must only Chevron Techron gas with highest octane rating. I ask them to show me this in the Owners manual, and guess what, not in writing. Dealership says pinging is normal for their injectors. In fact the manual states 87 Octane. Not acceptable.
3. Steering shaft is constantly binding making a "grinding" sound. Dealership has taken the steering wheel off three times, lubricated, and reassembled. They advise there is no solution to the problem, so every six months, we have to take the vehicle back in.
4. In the 10 mph range, the electronic transmission cannot figure which gear to go in, 1st or 2nd, and gets confused causing harsh kick and slam. Unacceptable. Lexus Dealership acknowledges all of their transmissions do this from time to time. No fix available.
5. Twice, the serpentime belt has be replaced because of loud sqeaking and chirping. Dealership acknowledges one of the pullies on the engine is misaligned and repair it under warranty.
In 3 years, with only 22,000 miles, our Lexus has been in the shop seven times! I do not have time driving 30 + miles to their dealership.
Lexus does an outstanding job on the paint and finish of their vehicles. My wife's car is constantly getting pelted by bird do-do and tree sap, and the paint is holding up very well. The paint on my Chevy would be ruined. I do think the Lexus engine is above average and smooth, but the drivetrain is substandard as my 2002 Chevy Trailblazer with 85,000 miles is smoother and quieter. When we take road trips, we take my Chevy because we both have higher confidence and it has 4 times the mileage! The Lexus is supposed to be better since it cost $15,000 more and is supposed to be in a different leaque, right?
Keep telling yourself Lexus is better so you can feel better about your purchase. I would take an Acura over a Lexus. You may get a better one, but my wife will be getting a Acura MDX or Caddy SVX next time.
I doubt very highly that an 8 speed would have better acceleration than say a 5 speed since most of the acceleration would be done at lower gears. Fuel economy depends more on the gear ratio that you are in and not the number of gears you have.
It seems to me to more of a marketing gimmick than anything else.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
with each additional gear you get diminishing returns. After all, the lower your first gear the sooner you're going to upshift. And you can only make your final gear so tall, otherwise the engine will have no power and will have to downshift at the slightest inclination.
Back in the old days when automatics started going from 2-speed to 3-speed, there was a big jump in both performance and fuel economy. You could have a shorter first gear for better acceleration and a taller rear end for better economy at highway speeds, and a middle gear you could shift down to at higher speeds for better passing performance.
In the 70's, in an attempt to improve fuel economy, they started putting overly tall axles in cars, which really hurt performance. And in many cases, it actually hurt economy because the cars had to start depending more on the lower gears for passing and such, where previously they could do it in top gear.
When 4-speed automatics started coming out, they addressed this problem somewhat. The auto makers could go back to a quicker axle ratio for acceleration, but then the top overdrive gear would still cut you down to a loafy highway speed. To use an example, in 1979 Ford was sticking 2.50 axles in many of their cars, and with the 1:1 drive ratio, that was your final effective top gear ratio. In 1980, with the 4-speed overdrives, they went to a 3.08:1 axle in many cases. That really helped out acceleration. But the overdrive 4th gear was something like 0.67:1, which would give you an effective top gear ratio of 2.03:1. So you got the benefit of performance and economy improvements.
Now with the jump to 5-speed automatics, I don't know how much of an improvement there really is. In the case of the Nissan Altima, taking the V-6 from a 4-speed to 5-speed bumped the economy from 19/26 to 20/30. That seems like a pretty impressive jump to me. I guess it would vary from car to car, though.
I would worry though, that eventually these trannies with all these gears would get prohibitively expensive to fix. I might be wrong here, but it seems to me that as you add more gears to a transmission, you either have to make the whole unit bigger, or make the parts smaller to make it all fit. Either way, it gets more complicated, and if you make the parts smaller, they're going to be more expensive and more likely to fail.
I couldn't agree more, pfflyer. Once you've switched and had good results, why go back? Here's our story: Mom's car during my teens: a Nash Metropolitan. Top speed of 50 mph when it wasn't getting stuck in second gear. We got used to driving on the shoulder of the road as a matter of course so everyone could pass us. When it finally died Mom bought a Toyota Corona because she couldn't find an American small car. Guess what? That car lasted over 15 years, and she bought Toyotas, Mazdas and Nissans ever since.
Our first car as adults: A Ford Fiesta (1979). Ran through water pumps every 20,000 miles. Finally died altogether at 60,000 miles. When we replaced it my neighbor said, "Maybe we won't be seeing the tow truck at your place every week now".
Second car, now with 2 children: A Dodge Caravan (1985). Failed at 60,000+ miles because the dealership didn't change the timing belt when they were supposed to. Died on a railroad track in the dead of winter with the family on board. At the same time we had a Mazda 323, lasted 10 years and the clutch even survived our oldest son learning to drive stick shift with it. Hmm, maybe Japanese cars are the way to go?
Third car: Toyota Previa van, having learned our lesson. Lasted 10 years and well over 120,000 miles, only sold because kids were nearly grown. Replaced with a Subaru Forester because we wanted to go smaller. Also had during that time a Honda Civic, never needed anything major.
At present: A Mazda 6 wagon, bought because we have had good luck with Mazdas but are a little concerned about the Ford connection. Also a Nissan Maxima, fabulous car.
Notice we don't always buy the same brands as our needs have changed, if the make we liked before didn't have what we wanted the next time around. For example, Toyota's RAV 4 was much too small at that time, so we bought the Forester instead. We didn't like the Accord as much as the Civic, so we bought a Maxima. But we just don't look at "American" cars anymore at all.
You actually missed the key point of my prior message. The absence of the Japanese from the Big Rig market through the 80's and 90's was a negotiated agreement back in the early 80's. It expired in 2002 or 2003.
Huh??? Please provide a link to this "fact".
The [non-permissible content removed] never "agreed" not to compete in the "big rig" market.
There was a 25% tariff on imported trucks at one point, and a voluntary total vehicle import quota from Japan, but no "negotiated agreement" to not sell trucks here. The Transplants with their laughably low domestic content quickly made the voluntary quotas irrelevant in the 80's.
there really wasn't much of a big truck market. You had the full-sized Ford trucks, the full-sized Chevy trucks, and that was it. GMC was a bit player, and so was Dodge. And most of these trucks were fairly basic, and really didn't have much of a profit margin. The Japanese barely built a midsized car back in the 80's, so it's pretty understandable that they weren't going to try for something like a full-sized truck.
As for that truck tariff, I think it might still apply. Aren't most Japanese trucks built in the US these days to get around it?
The full-sized SUV market really didn't explode until well into the mid 90's. When the Expedition came on the scene and the Tahoe/Yukon sprouted an extra set of doors, that's when it took off. When the Explorer replaced the Bronco II, that's when the small SUV market really opened up wide and got swept up by an eager public.
...where the U.S. trade deficit hit a new record - no doubt fuel by all that cheap foreign junk being bought by avid shoppers this holiday season. Come, let us look into the near future for things we'll hear and see in Asia in the future:
"Eat your lo mein, Chang! Don't you know there are kids starving in America?"
On Japanese television, "For only 89 yen a day you can sponsor a poor, starving child in America" as images of gaunt Caucasian, African-American, and Latino children with doleful eyes appear on the screen with long-abandoned steel mills and auto factories in the background.
In about 50-100 years in China:
Deng: "I just went to the Great Wal-of-China-Mart to buy a Shanghai toaster. My mother had one and it was great, but guess what? I flipped it over and it said 'Made in U.S.A.' on the bottom! Those Americans working in non-union sweatshops for peanuts are taking all our jobs!"
Li: "You should buy a Mao toaster! They're still proudly made in China by Chinese union workers!"
The people who will really resent our generation will be our children and grandchildren. We had a chance to stop the above scenarios from happening and did nothing!
Sorry to hear about your history of problems with the RX, but you might be in a small minority with that level of quality on that vehicle.
As the Host and others have said, if one car or car company give you major problems, this will color your view of them for quite a long time.
And if you need a full-size truck, for example, you will love the Big3, and see no need to shop imports. That's all fine and good.
But the Big3 made a nice chunk of change in the SUV-era, and I don't see any fruits of that profit except from Chrysler, who probably made the least from that decade of dominance.
Why do we have to wait 7 YEARS for Ford/Lincoln to field an RX330 competitor?
In a few classes, the Big3 have EARNED a market advantage, but in most cases, they are struggling to keep up, or are too far behind to matter.
GM is not broke! They don't have Toyota-level cash, but they have too much to field the LOUSY lineup we are getting! :mad:
And the opposite is true. If you have had great times driving Accords, Civics, Camrys, Corollas, Tacomas, why would you stop at a Chevy store? To drive a Malibu? To fire-up a 5-cylinder Colorado? Geez.... :sick:
The family history thing is very pertinent - people do learn from their experiences and do not repeat what they consider a mistake.
First car I ever rode in (I am told): my dad's mid-60s Beetle. That thing was awesome for him, sold only because he was moving. Lived in Europe for a while, Dad bought a Citroen wagon, what a mess (but it WAS the 70s), sold that when we moved to the U.S.
He had loved his VW so much we bought a Westfalia camper van, also a Corolla wagon for my mom because there weren't many choices in small wagons back then - purely random. The VW van was torture from the word go. Nothing ever worked right, it was in the shop all the time, stranded us on road trips many times. The Corllla, OTOH, never needed any repairs and just cruised right along.
So, after suffering the VW for nine long years (my dad is a glutton for punishment), my dad's choice to replace it was the very first Toyota minivan in '84. The next year I bought the Corolla from him, and he bought himself a Celica GTS.
The van lasted 17 years and 224K miles before my folks sold it to a new family, still worth $2000 even then. Never needed any major repairs, rock-solid, but the steering rack was suffering at the end there.
Dad's Celica wasn't driven as much and sold at 12 years/150K miles because my dad had a twinkle in his eye for one of them thar SUV-thingummys. The Celica never needed any repairs either, but WAS weeping P/S fluid and oil all over the road by the time it went off to a new home. Still ran perfectly.
The van got replaced by a Honda Civic, running strong at 60K miles and 5 years without any repairs yet. The Celica got replaced by an Explorer (told you Dad was a glutton for punishment), which after 7 years and close to 90K miles has needed extensive repairs to the electrical system to the tune of a cumulative $2000 or so, a complete brake overhaul to the tune of $800, and has had intermittent start problems that the dealer cannot trace (not a battery fault). Now it has begun to shift badly - uh oh.
Based on my parents' cars, my sister has bought Toyota Corollas exclusively - the first a late 80s FX which gave her trouble (overheating) after the 150K mile mark, and more recently a late 90s sedan which has just reached 200K miles and needed its first repair: CV joints. Not used to spending money repairing cars, my sister is considering selling.
I owned exclusively Japanese cars for many years also, based on my parents' experience. In '94, I decided to buy new and went to look at a Saturn - I was drawn in by the talk of Saturn being the import-fighting company. The SL2 seemed decent at the price and got great fuel economy, liked it enough to buy one. Within 2 1/2 years and 48K miles it had major electrical problems, then a fuel pump failure. Being a newbie to new-car buying, I had purchased an extended warranty, and ended up getting WAY more than I paid for it in those two repairs. That was also when I ran out of patience and sold it (upside down, of course).
The Saturn is the only new car I have ever bought that broke down while under warranty, or indeed in the first 100K miles. Now I ask you, based on the experience I have had, as well as that of my family, why would I go out and try other brands? Between Toyota, Honda, and Subaru, I can always find something I like that fits my needs.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
who recently transferred to my building, and we were talking cars the other day. She has a Saturn Ion...forget the year, but it's only a couple years old. She told me the starter went out, had to be replaced (and I don't think it was covered under her regular warranty, but was picked up on an extended one). Almost immediately the car died again. Back to the shop it went. This time it was the solenoid.
She said that the service guy said that bad starters and solenoids were a common problem on Ions. Yippee. Score another for GM....or if nothing else their low-bid supplier that made the starter!
Wouldn't it be cool if it was the same supplier that sold them to Honda, Toyota, or whatever? At least back when my Gran Fury used to eat its newfangled lightweight starters on a regular basis, I could jokingly blame it on Honda, because it was the same part! :P That car also used a GM (Quadrajet) carb, so I could blame its carburetor woes on GM, and still put Mopar up on the pedestal! :shades:
What I did on my vacation last summer. No strike that. Evolution of car brands (Wife and self only from first car onward) in chronological order. Only 4 purchased used and were American). Our household score is: American brands 11, Foreign brands 9
Ford Dodge Pontiac Dodge Ford Pontiac Plymouth Pontiac Pontiac VW Chevrolet Honda Honda Chevrolet Honda Nissan Honda Honda Acura Acura
Wife and I have had multiple cars/vehicles at same time over the years.
The Nissan and recent Hondas and Acuras have been virtually bullit-proof. The total amount of miles combined on both Acuras is 125K and they have been/are absolutely bullit-proof. Only things done to them is normal maintenance.
The last three Hondas had/have a total of 160K and there were two issues on them. On one, the power rear antenna failed after a couple of years and was replaced under warranty. On the other, the interior light switch failed after a couple of years and was replaced under warranty.
The first Honda we had was built in Japan and was more reliable then the 2nd built in Ohio. Japan Honda alternator lasted to about 190K whereas Ohio Honda alternator had to be replaced at about 100K. Would be interesting to know the differences in design/engineering/manufacture between these alternators. Still have Nissan, built in Japan, and is very solid/reliable at 172K with not much done except maintenance items.
Will need a lot of incentive to switch from extremely reliable Japanese brands to an American brand in the future. But, who knows. Might do so if American brand came out with truly stunning design and/or some type of breakthrough. Of course, brand would have to have decent reliability record in recent times and be on a par with Japanese in performance/quality/materials/fit/finish. Not asking for too much.
Not that my folks have had a lot of cars over the years:
The 60's: 1957 Chevy convertible - not sure if it was bought new or used (I suspect used). Ran great until Dad had an encounter with a cement truck on highway 101 in Santa Barbara. Totalled.
Early 60's VW Bug - again, not sure if this was bought new or used, but was Mom's around town car. No problems that I was ever aware of.
Early 50's Ford pickup - bought used; dad used it to get back and forth to work (fireman) and for his second job (carpenter / handyman).
1967 VW Squareback - the Beetle was too small after my sister was born, so it got traded in for this. Ran pretty well early on; in fact, we took it from CA to NY and back in the summer of 1971.
The 70's: 1970 Chevy C10 half ton - bought new. Mom told Dad that this was the last truck he would ever buy. He must have taken her at her word, because 35 years later, he still has it. Engine was rebuilt at 100-110K; the truck itself has maybe 150-160K on it. Been repainted twice and just came out of a major restoration (new windows, rubber gaskets around windows, dashboard, exterior trim) - probably $5K total, which Dad thought was better than $15-20K for a new truck. Runs like a top after all these years.
1973 Toyota Corona - the Squareback started having some engine issues, so it was traded in on this. I remember the folks looking at the Mazda RX-2 or RX-3 sedan as well. Don't think they even considered anything domestic. This was my Mom's primary car for the next decade, until it was totalled in an accident in 1981 - I was driving (oops!).
The 80's: 1972 MB 220D - replaced the Corona as the family car. Dad thought it was a good deal - I think he paid $4K for it. Within 3 or 4 months it needed a total engine rebuild, which cost something like $2500. Mom hated to drive it.
1983 Toyota Celica - the Benz was traded in for this used car. As both my sister and I had our licenses, Mom felt she didn't need a sedan. Ran pretty well until Mom learned about timing belts and interference engines while on the 101 about 35 miles from home. Engine repaired and again ran well enough for me to acquire a speeding ticket in it on PCH.
The 90's: 1991 Toyota Camry - the Celica was sold outright and my Dad bought this (again, used) for Mom. DX trim, pretty solid car for the years that they owned it.
2000's: 2003 Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 - while there was nothing really wrong with the Camry, it had 70-80K on it and Mom wanted one last new car. They were primed to buy another Camry, but Dad found out that he could get a V6 Sonata for the price of a 4-cyl Camry. That, plus the fact that it has thicker gauge steel and the stellar warranty convinced him first, then my mom. They've had this car for 2 1/2 years and 12K miles.
As you can see, they've been import buyers for the most part, which influenced me when I started to buy my own cars. However, about 8 or 9 years ago, my current wife convinced me to try domestics again and I was surprised to find that they were just as reliable as anything I'd owned from Honda, Mazda or Nissan.
Wow, 77 TSB on the engine alone, while GM has had only 8 and Dodge has had none on their diesels. I don't get it...with computers today, why did Ford not use computers to calculate the failure rate of International engines using simulations. With computers now, you should be able run an infinite number of simulations using multiple variables (heat, load, weather, driver etc). Just push the enter the button..
Chevrolet Malibu Lowest price: $17,365 with 2.2-liter 4-cylinder engine and 4-speed automatic transmission Details and more photos
The Chevrolet Malibu is no-one's idea of a great car. Brakes, steering, the base engine and the interior are all sub-par, according to Edmunds.com. But there is plenty of space inside and, particularly if purchased with side airbags, it's a very safe family car.
The Malibu earned a Silver award as a Top Safety Pick from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.
Toyota Camry Lowest price: $19,545 with 2.4-liter 4-cylinder engine and manual transmission Details and more photos
The Camry is always near the top of the list of best-selling cars in America. The reason is simple: Anyone who buys a Camry can rest assured they didn't make a dumb purchase. It's a good car, it's got a strong reputation for reliability and its resale value is excellent. Plus, if you're concerned about American manufacturing jobs, it's built right here in the U.S.A.
Perhaps most importantly, it's safe, earning top scores across the board. There are cheaper cars in its class and, according to Edmunds.com, the Camry V-6 engines aren't the strongest around, but the Camry has become the default car for good reason.
taking away the commentaries, and just going by the stats, the Malibu seems like a pretty good deal. $2200 less PLUS an automatic transmission? For people where price is a concern (forget resale value and overall "true" cost...if you can't afford it in the first place it doesn't matter if it retains 100% of its purchase price) the Malibu seems like a pretty good deal.
I'm also guessing those are MSRP prices. I spec'd out a Camry a couple months ago, and to get an SE V-6 the way I wanted it, it only came out to around $21-22K in the TMV department.
I'm sure a strippo Camry could be had for much less than $19.5K. Of course, a strippo Malibu could also most likely be had for a lot less than $17.4K.
'53 Ford Fairlane - All I remember was it was the a two-tone car with light green and teale paint.
'61 Olds 88 - I remember it had a cool speedometer that kind of rolled versus having a needle.
'63 Buick LeSabre - Green, it was light green. No other memory about it.
'68 Olds 88 - The car I learned to drive on. 455 engine with power to spare for on-ramp merging. I totalled it when I spun out merging onto a highway bridge in the rain.
'73 Ford Galaxie - Choked by emissions equipment. No power AND no fuel economy. 351 Windsor V8. The frame had the worst case of scaling rust I'd every seen on any car before or since. Tap the frame with a hammer and watch the rust fall off...
'76 VW Dasher - Fuel efficient and surprisingly roomy. Unfortunately, the fuel injection system was "not ready for prime time" yet and few maechanics were really comfortable working on the Bosch jetronic system. Prone to rust if dinged. Every cent saved in gasoline went to repairing it. 1.6 litre engine - when it ws running well, it was very responsive and fun to drive. Would blow the doors off a relative's Chevy Chevette (also with a 1.6 litre engine) of the same vintage.
'81 Ford Fairmont - My first company car. Don't remember the displacement (maybe 200 c.i.?), but it had the straight six engine that must have been transplanted from a Ford agricultural tractor - it was very uncomfortable at higher RPM's. Front suspension (macpherson struts) lasted 12,000 miles - covered under warranty and the OEM replacements last almost exactly 12,000 miles! The car would idle up so high when the a/c was on that it was almost like having your foot on the gas - great fun in the winter when the defroster was used with that dang a/c compressor running. OTOH, it had the coldest a/c I've ever experienced in a car - you could rent it out as a meat locker.
'87 VW Golf - nice, but killed by accidents. 1.8 SOHC engine was strong.
'92 Mazda Protege - very nice car for the price. Fuel efficient, fast, nicely equipped and ran for 165,000 miles. 1.8 DOHC engine was delightful. My wife still misses it.
'97 Honda Accord - currently with 110,000 miles on it. Never spent a dime on it (other than maintenance - oil, tires, brakes) until our 7th year of ownership. Then it needed a new ECU, radiator, and front wheel bearings (both sides) - all covered under an extended warranty that I began to think I would never use. Running strong right now. Long-term mileage is somewhere around 25 MPG since purchased new.
'03 VW Passat - The only car at it's price point at the time that had the right combination of safety, features, looks and fuel economy in a wagon. Gets 32 MPG on the highway, 21 around town. Six airbags, and a strong passenger compartment. 1.8T is strong, but needs TLC. 30,000 trouble-free miles to date. Only been in the garage for state inspections and oil changes.
I'd like to see Ford make a wagon version of the Fusion. I haven't seen anything from GM, other than perhaps the Caddie CTS, that I would ever consider actually owning. And the CTS is too rich for my budget (unless they do that emplyee pricing thing again). The recently re-designed Subie Legacy wagon catches my eye when I see one on the road. The new Ford stuff looks okay, but it's still not meeting my needs since the only wagon Ford makes is the Focus (too small) and the Taurus (too antiquated). And I don't want a SUV. Chrysler only has the PT Cruiser (ummm, no thanks) and the Magnum wagon (too big and inefficient).
Brakes, steering, the base engine and the interior are all sub-par
the Camry V-6 engines aren't the strongest around
So, according to CNN, the Malibu's weak base (4 cyl) engine makes it "sub par," but the Camry's weak V6s "aren't the strongest around". Two statements saying the exact same thing, with very different implications. It's statements like these that cause the belief that there is an anti american-made bias in the press. I don't believe that reporters are sitting around some table somewhere actively coming up with ways to promote imports and trash domestics, but I do believe that reporters (and the general public) have a predisposition to dislike american designed cars. (Probably because of bad experiences with them in the 80's and 90's) If you go into a test predisposed to like or dislike a car, you're most likely going to notice things that reaffirm your expectations, and disregard things that conflict with what you expect.
Also notice the different wording talking about the crash test scores. According to the edmunds comparison tool the crash scores are virtually identical. (And according to Edmunds, the Malibu does better in side impact rear collisions. Apparently that's not part of "across the board")
The articles also completely leaves out fuel economy, where the malibu is better than the Camry. (especially with the V6)
The Camry V-6 engines aren't the strongest around, but they are among the smoothest, and have no glaring deficiencies.
The Malibu's 4-cylinder is not just weak, but "sub par" in most other areas. It is coarse, unrefined and generally lacking in reliability in comparison with Japanese 4-cylinders.
This doesn't look like bias to me. If you read a car magazine from England, then you might see some bias.
There's a peculiar breed of person out there for whom the PT Cruiser's gawky retro styling is an incontrovertible plus.
For the rest of us it gets conspicuously less easy to stomach with every passing day, and now, as it nears the end of its life cycle, that impossibly camp appearance has further deteriorated with the merciless passage of time.
In fact, the PT Crusier seems so dated both inside and out that the inclusion of a new 2.4-litre petrol engine seems akin to defibrillating a cadaver.
The elephant hide interior trim and dashboard plastics belong to an altogether different era of car making, and the switch gear and instruments are laid out in a fashion that points pretty squarely to an unsuccessful experiment with a lab full of monkeys and an eighties automotive parts bin.
The Malibu's 4-cylinder is not just weak, but "sub par" in most other areas. It is coarse, unrefined and generally lacking in reliability in comparison with Japanese 4-cylinders.
Where is there any evidence that the Ecotec 4 Cyl., or any recent GM engine has a reliability or durability issue. The only major, widespread reliability/durability issue I can think of with GM engines over the past 10 - 15 years was the warped plastic intake manifold issue on the 3.1/3.4 V-6. On the other hand, everyone paying attention knows about the Toyota engine sludge issue.
I can't think of anything to complain about with my wife's Malibu Maxx. I've driven it enough now to definitely say I prefer it to the rental Camries I've driven, even the V-6 Camries. The current 2005 Camry rental cars handle about like the old Buick Century rental cars did, they heel over in turns like you're tacking a large sail boat.
Your points are well made, but you are assuming that the other characteristics of the two vehicles are more or less equal. I have not driven either, but I would assume that the Camry is more reliable and a "nicer" car to drive. If you take the resale value out of the equation, you must still live with the vehicle and drive it every day. You want the best driving vehicle and one that you do not have to take into the dealer, even if it is under warranty. A more pleasant car to drive which is more reliable is worth more money. Good resale also helps. I have a 1999 Intrepid ES with 65K miles on it($23K purchased new) which is worth about $4-5K. An equivalent Camry or Accord would not have cost more and would be worth twice that. So even if you own a vehicle for six or seven years, there is still a big difference in the resale and there are much worse examples than the one that I have given.
1967 Grand Prix convertible – mom loved hers until some lady destroyed it in a parking lot.
1977 Ford Econoline Van – Mom’s. Always had engine problems.
1981 Lincoln Zephyr – Dad’s and it ran well until he sold it to a neighbor
1984 Chevy Camaro Z28 – lots of electrical problems and automatic tranny was garbage.
1985 Chevy Citation II – you name, it broke.
1988 Ford Taurus – 4 cylinder rolling junk pile
1992 Ford Ranger Supercab – rock solid
1983 Ford EXP – my first car. I spent every weekend fixing parts (mine)
1994 Mercury Grand Marquis – tranny and engine both went out
1955 Ford T-bird – show car and dad’s removed and replaced/polished every single part on the car. (still owned - though he may finally be selling it to make a new show car)
2002 Ford Excursion diesel – perfect (still owned)
1957 Ford Thunderbird – second show car (still owned)
2003 Mazda Protégé ES – best car I’ve ever owned, perfect commuter (mine, bought new, sold June of 05)
2003 BMW 330i ZHP – constant electrical problems, engine stutter BMW can’t fix, e-brake broke, engine coils blew, sensor failure constantly, parking light failure (mine, bought new, still owned)
My european cars have been unreliable vis-a-vis my japanese cars yet I'll most likely replace the bimmer with a german car as nothing american or japanese excites me.
I don't believe that reporters are sitting around some table somewhere actively coming up with ways to promote imports and trash domestics, but I do believe that reporters (and the general public) have a predisposition to dislike american designed cars. (Probably because of bad experiences with them in the 80's and 90's)<\i>
That is were you are wrong. Many people continue to have bad experience in 2000's with domestic cars. The press does not sell cars that are not yet ready for prime time. The press reports on the news. Press did not force Ford to release 6.0l Diesel with all of these problems.
Ford has problems to produce a reliable truck. Trucks are the bread and butter at Ford. This is happening NOW, not 10 years ago. Truck owners are the most loyal customers domestics have. If domestics loose their truck customers, there will be no customers left.
I didn't say it wasn't reliable or durable, just subpar in comparison to its competition. It is rare to find a current engine that is generally unreliable in a domestic or import. The problem is the competition makes good engines even better as the domestics reach adequate status.
The press does not sell cars that are not yet ready for prime time. The press reports on the news.
Reviews are largely opinion pieces, not hard new stories. And there's a great deal of editorial discretion in what is reported and what is not. With all of the talk about high oil prices lately, why would a report on two mainstream cars completely leave out fuel economy? The fact that the Malibu has class leading fuel economy does not fit with the editorial tone of the review.
Regarding the ford diesel. Yeah, they put out a lemon on that one. And the media has covered every single recall in great detail, and treated them as a sign that Ford couldn't produce anything good. But I also seem to recall several stories about the holier-than-thou Toyota Prius stalling at highway speeds, but none of these stories took that little problem as a sign that Toyota puts out crap.
... generally lacking in reliability in comparison with Japanese 4-cylinders
You stated that the Japanese 4 Bangers are more reliable than the Ecotec in the Malibu, is there any evidence to support this? There should be totally objective, factual information on this issue available, engine reliability is not a subjective judgment made by biased consumers (well, a CU survey might be suspect). Subjective perceptions can be applied to NVH, quality of the plastics (my God, plastic is plastic is plastic!), switchgear feel, etc. Lack of engine reliability should be factual, not just, "I feel like my Toyota sludger 4 cyl. will be more reliable than a Malibu Ecotec".
Plastic is plastic? ROFL Rap your knuckles on the plastics on a CTS or G35, then do the same in the A4 or Lexus IS350. No comparison. The CTS/G35 make a loud hollow sound. The A and IS make a sound that's dull and the give on your knuckles says the plastic is thicker and will last longer.
'81 Ford Fairmont - My first company car. Don't remember the displacement (maybe 200 c.i.?), but it had the straight six engine that must have been transplanted from a Ford agricultural tractor
Close...that 200 CID engine dates back to, IIRC, the 144 CID unit used in the 1960 Falcon! Ford also had a 250 inline-6 in the 70's, which was used in the Granada. I think it was a different design though, and was derived from the more modern Ford 240 CID big car 6 that debuted around 1965. I'm not sure, but I think the 300 straight six used in trucks might've also been related.
As for that little Fairmont 6, it actually survived up through 1995, in the Tempo/Topaz! Ford just lopped two cylinders off of it to make a 4-cyl.
We see a lot of preconceived notions about what which car is represented here. The Malibu drives fine. If you want an ego feeling that you've bought what a magazine says is the best car for you to buy, then you may need the Camry or the Accord for your self to feel right.
But the Malibu comes in a little under that price. Often including a V6 from what others have written earlier compared to a 4 from the others.
I hear a lot of criticism but little substance--like someone saying "I own one" and this and that compared to the others. I hear religion but I don't hear much science.
My perception is it wasn't intended to compete with Camry 6 cyl auto and Accord 6 cyl auto. It was aimed slightly below: that's how HoToy gained much of the market, they aimed slightly off from what others offered and they found sweet spots.
I haven't driven a Camry, but did drive an '04 Malibu with the V-6 on a GM-sponsored test course. Honestly, I hated the handling. The funky electric steering just seemed slow to respond and had no feel whatsoever to it. I swear it felt like I could've put my '79 NYer through that test course with more confidence!
Now maybe I could get used to it, but as is, it did nothing for me.
As for cost versus resale, the point I was trying to make is that some people simply can't afford a more expensive car up-front, even if it costs them less in the long run due to better resale. For instance, if I qualify for a $15K car that will be worth zero in 5 years, but I can't get approved for anything more than that, can't scrounge together a down payment, or get a co-signer, then even if there was a $20K car that would be worth $15K in 5 years, it would be a moot point...because that $20K car would be out of reach in the first place!
And if you want a worse example of resale, look no further than me...my '00 Trep has around 113,000 miles on it and is just a base model...I bet I'd have to almost pay someone to take it off my hands! :P
Just to see how prices are, I spec'd out a Camry using Edmunds, the way I'd probably want one equipped. I picked an SE with the 3.3 V-6/automatic, and no options...it basically comes with everything I'd care about...power stuff, sunroof, alloys, cd player, ABS. MSRP came to $24,605 with freight, and TMV came to $22,122.
Now, on to the Malibu. Here I picked the LT sedan with the 3.5 V-6. I didn't want the luxury stuff of the LTZ, and while I did pick the sportiest Camry, in this case I didn't want a Malibu SS, because the 3.9 is a bit of a guzzler, while the 3.5 is still adequate enough. I added a sunroof, ABS w/ traction control, and a nice stereo with a 6-disc changer. It looks like alloy wheels aren't available on the LT, unfortunately. Anyway, I came up with an MSRP of $23,115, and a TMV of $20,170.
Hmm, am I missing something here? When you figure the Camry has alloy wheels and a power driver's seat and probably a few other niceties to go along with its $2000 higher price, the Malibu just doesn't seem like that much better of a deal? I'm guessing that real transaction prices are still lower than this TMV estimate?
Funny thing is, on the surface, the Malibu does seem like a lot of car for the money. FWIW, my Intrepid's price, with freight, was something like $19986+ tags, tax, and all the other add-ons. And I had gotten them to throw in a 12-disc CD changer. When you figure the Malibu's 6 years newer, would have ABS, the sunroof, and a better engine (I think the LT also has standard remote start), the 'Bu seems like a good deal to me. UNTIL you put it up against the Camry.
Well, I tried to defend the Malibu and I guess I blew it...sorry GM, I tried! Still, if I could get a really good deal on a Malibu, I might be swayed over the Camry.
"Ford Reverses, Will Advertise In Gay Publications."
Does this mean that we will now get Ford with some style? I suppose that F350 King Ranch in HOT PINK with BLACK interior will became a popular choice now.
Comments
From Edmunds News quoting Wards on the 10 best powertrains of the year.
"DIG technology is the most important development the powertrain sector has seen in this decade," said Bill Visnic, Ward's senior technical editor.
As an example, Ward's praised the DIG technology in the Lexus 3.5-liter V6, which delivers 306 horsepower with a fuel-economy rating of 21 mpg in the city and 28 mpg on the highway.
If GM wants to build basic cars, well then they won't get my buisness. I have repeatedly demand from them to atleast be as good as the Asians in technology and creature features. I had hope for the G-8, but it's going to be a rebadged Holden Commadore with pontiac grill styling with MSRP I'd guess around $40 large.
I am just really dissapointed. It's too bad Wagoner and the other CEO's won't be competitive. The next generation CTS isn't due out until 2008 either. I am not expecting much more than a redone interior, lacking the creature features that are expected in that price bracket. The BMW 3 series might be a true drivers car, but compared to Lexus or Acura, it's not worth getting a car that just handles good. I'm not going to be driving twisty's every trip, but will use my Voice Recognition and DVD surround sound every single day I use the car. Not to mention the AC seats in the summer time.
I guess if you never had or driven a car with such features and technology, you won't know what your missing. The Lexus and Acura automobiles as much as I hate to admit it are superior pieces of transportation for the money you spend. The Big 3 looks like they are going to continue to get caught looking, and strike out. It's really too bad, the workers of these once great company's are the ones that are really going to suffer.
Rocky
You have the answer to this topic thread -- What will it take for consumers to buy American again? They are going to have to start liking America again; start thinking that American ideas and products are good.
This thought cannot go uncontested. Only the threatened feel as you do. There are a very large number of us, your fellow citizens, who grew up in the same time frame who embrace change. The more the better. My life from the 50's onward is much better than it was.
I'll go back to the industry I was in for 30 yrs. The US steel industry is much different and much more dynamic now than when I started in it in the 70's. This is precisely the situation the Big 2+C are in now.
Change and adapt or get out of the way before you get run over.
I'm glad your life was better from the '50's onwards -- are you trying to to say that you, personally, still have a positive outlook on the general idea of "America"? I was just trying to provide an answer for the forum topic, not debate on if change is good or not. (Which, by the way, it is good, because the change/increase of foreign pressure has forced American car manufactures to be more competitive.)
I strongly agree. I was willing to give GM the benefit of the doubt until after attending a GM AutoinMotion event. Unfortunately, it reinforced all the negative reviews in the media.
(It wasn't all bad... I really liked the way to the CTS drove, more than the Acura TL. Factor in the interior though, and I'd get a TL. But I liked the TSX more, and that was the only segment in which I felt GM was close.)
In the last two years - after many years of mediocrity - I see improvements and competitiveness. It's about time.
absolutley.
I was just trying to provide an answer for the forum topic, not debate on if change is good or not. (Which, by the way, it is good, because the change/increase of foreign pressure has forced American car manufactures to be more competitive.)
I agree wholeheartedly here too. Pressure is normally the main force to have things change for the better. Some people will be hurt and some will be better off. I will adapt and be better off. That's our capitalistic society.
The new GM/Ford will be stronger if they bite the bullet and cut loose their non-productive baggage. This includes non-producing plants and personel and management. There is no inalienable right to be paid not to work or to have all your health insurance paid forever or to get bonus' when losing market share.
It’s the American Cars that people don't like. Please lets not confuse American cars with American way of life. I have posted many comments about the difference between good American companies and Mediocre American Companies. American cars have gotten so bad that even Americans don't what to buy them. Do we really expect other people in other countries to purchase products that we our self don't want?
Maybe during WW2 GM made airplanes and tanks on the same production line as cars, but now its different. The tanks and airplanes have gotten so complicated that you cannot just convert a truck factory to make them. Remember Ford had problems to convert their Explorer plant to make new style in 2002 because they were 2" too wide. It seems people forgot that new Explorers were 2" wider then old generation and that cause a lot of damage to tires.
I think that as Americans we should not fly on any Airbus airplane that Northwest owns. We should only get on a good American Boeing 737. That will keep our airplane factories running and keep America Safe. Cars they just don't matter that much. What you want to drive to Japan?
Should not GM, Ford, Chrylser be building exactly what the American consumer wants?
Or did the slogan, "The customer is always right" somehow become divorced from the Big 3?
Face it, your argument is that Americans should buy a domestic car... because the Big 3 deserve your money more than you do. Not because they actually make anything worth buying.
They just need your money, so give it to them.
To that, I say, "Nuts!"
Make a car that fits my wants and needs and I'll buy it from you. Ignore my wants and needs and I'll ignore you right back.
So here's my story of how the wife and I wound up owning Datsun/Nissan products since 1979...
First car I remember riding in was my Dad's 1952 Plymouth. I can still see the day we went to trade it in on a shiny, brand new 1960 Chevy Impala. That was a great car. Trips to Florida and Maine. We put over 100,000 miles on that car when we traded it in on a '65 Impala. My Grandfather got an identical '65 at the same time. Both were MAJOR lemons. Within 6 months, trannies failed on both, and Dad jumped ship to a '66 Chrysler Newport (which turned into MY first car) That was a magnificent beast and I drove that until it retired at 228,000 miles. Along the way, Dad picked up a 1974 Vega which drove him to try a Honda because of his last two Chevy experiences.
After I reluctanly retired the Newport, I inherited the Vega and lasted for a year with it. The future wife had gotten a new job and was looking for her first new car in 1979 and we went to look at EVERYTHING. (I'm good at shopping with other people's money :P ) She was thinking compacts to save money, and the bottom line was important. We test drove at Ford, Chevy, and Datsun, and for what she was going to get for the money, the B210 hatchback won out.
After the second rear side window fell out of the Vega, I was ready for my first new vehicle and looked at all the choices again and went with a 1981 Nissan Sentra.
There was a wedding, and when it was time to trade, neither of our cars had done ANYTHING to make us think about trading for anything other than a Nissan. And that's the way it's been all along.
We've had 8 Datsun/Nissans since 1979...
1980 Datsun B210
1981 Sentra
1983 Sentra
1986 Stanza Wagon
1987 4x4 pickup
1991 Sentra
1996 Sentra
2001 Altima
All 5 speeds, combined mileage over 1.3 million miles, and the only major issue I had in all those miles was a head gasket going on the pickup at about 70,000 miles. Trade in values have been amazing. (I know, I could have saved even more by selling them myself) I've been dealing with the same salesman all this time and a great service department for regular maintenance.
So I guess the moral of the story is that the American brands not only are going to have to offer me a quality product at a good price, but they're probably going to have to get lucky and have me run into a vehicle that's enough of a problem that I'm going to start to look elsewhere.
If Brand A is working for you, Brand B has to do something special to get you to switch, doesn't it??
I used to work for Boeing, and I remember at one time, they wanted us to refuse to get on a non-Boeing airplane when we did business travel. They even had a little chant for us... "If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!" I couldn't even tell a Boeing plane from another if I didn't read the name...I was in their aerospace division and worked for NASA. I only had to travel by plane once while I worked for Boeing. I'm sure my supervisors would've been positively giddy (NOT) if I refused to fly because of the plane!
1. Factory Brake Pads were digging in the rotars causing warping and shuddering when braking. Lexus dealership acknowledges they are aware of this problem, and install "softer" pads. Problem fixed.
2. Constant "pinging" under the hood at idle. Dealership insults me saying I must only Chevron Techron gas with highest octane rating. I ask them to show me this in the Owners manual, and guess what, not in writing. Dealership says pinging is normal for their injectors. In fact the manual states 87 Octane. Not acceptable.
3. Steering shaft is constantly binding making a "grinding" sound. Dealership has taken the steering wheel off three times, lubricated, and reassembled. They advise there is no solution to the problem, so every six months, we have to take the vehicle back in.
4. In the 10 mph range, the electronic transmission cannot figure which gear to go in, 1st or 2nd, and gets confused causing harsh kick and slam. Unacceptable. Lexus Dealership acknowledges all of their transmissions do this from time to time. No fix available.
5. Twice, the serpentime belt has be replaced because of loud sqeaking and chirping. Dealership acknowledges one of the pullies on the engine is misaligned and repair it under warranty.
In 3 years, with only 22,000 miles, our Lexus has been in the shop seven times! I do not have time driving 30 + miles to their dealership.
Lexus does an outstanding job on the paint and finish of their vehicles. My wife's car is constantly getting pelted by bird do-do and tree sap, and the paint is holding up very well. The paint on my Chevy would be ruined. I do think the Lexus engine is above average and smooth, but the drivetrain is substandard as my 2002 Chevy Trailblazer with 85,000 miles is smoother and quieter. When we take road trips, we take my Chevy because we both have higher confidence and it has 4 times the mileage! The Lexus is supposed to be better since it cost $15,000 more and is supposed to be in a different leaque, right?
Keep telling yourself Lexus is better so you can feel better about your purchase. I would take an Acura over a Lexus. You may get a better one, but my wife will be getting a Acura MDX or Caddy SVX next time.
Just my $.02 and opinion.
It seems to me to more of a marketing gimmick than anything else.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Back in the old days when automatics started going from 2-speed to 3-speed, there was a big jump in both performance and fuel economy. You could have a shorter first gear for better acceleration and a taller rear end for better economy at highway speeds, and a middle gear you could shift down to at higher speeds for better passing performance.
In the 70's, in an attempt to improve fuel economy, they started putting overly tall axles in cars, which really hurt performance. And in many cases, it actually hurt economy because the cars had to start depending more on the lower gears for passing and such, where previously they could do it in top gear.
When 4-speed automatics started coming out, they addressed this problem somewhat. The auto makers could go back to a quicker axle ratio for acceleration, but then the top overdrive gear would still cut you down to a loafy highway speed. To use an example, in 1979 Ford was sticking 2.50 axles in many of their cars, and with the 1:1 drive ratio, that was your final effective top gear ratio. In 1980, with the 4-speed overdrives, they went to a 3.08:1 axle in many cases. That really helped out acceleration. But the overdrive 4th gear was something like 0.67:1, which would give you an effective top gear ratio of 2.03:1. So you got the benefit of performance and economy improvements.
Now with the jump to 5-speed automatics, I don't know how much of an improvement there really is. In the case of the Nissan Altima, taking the V-6 from a 4-speed to 5-speed bumped the economy from 19/26 to 20/30. That seems like a pretty impressive jump to me. I guess it would vary from car to car, though.
I would worry though, that eventually these trannies with all these gears would get prohibitively expensive to fix. I might be wrong here, but it seems to me that as you add more gears to a transmission, you either have to make the whole unit bigger, or make the parts smaller to make it all fit. Either way, it gets more complicated, and if you make the parts smaller, they're going to be more expensive and more likely to fail.
Mom's car during my teens: a Nash Metropolitan. Top speed of 50 mph when it wasn't getting stuck in second gear. We got used to driving on the shoulder of the road as a matter of course so everyone could pass us. When it finally died Mom bought a Toyota Corona because she couldn't find an American small car. Guess what? That car lasted over 15 years, and she bought Toyotas, Mazdas and Nissans ever since.
Our first car as adults: A Ford Fiesta (1979). Ran through water pumps every 20,000 miles. Finally died altogether at 60,000 miles. When we replaced it my neighbor said, "Maybe we won't be seeing the tow truck at your place every week now".
Second car, now with 2 children: A Dodge Caravan (1985). Failed at 60,000+ miles because the dealership didn't change the timing belt when they were supposed to. Died on a railroad track in the dead of winter with the family on board. At the same time we had a Mazda 323, lasted 10 years and the clutch even survived our oldest son learning to drive stick shift with it. Hmm, maybe Japanese cars are the way to go?
Third car: Toyota Previa van, having learned our lesson. Lasted 10 years and well over 120,000 miles, only sold because kids were nearly grown. Replaced with a Subaru Forester because we wanted to go smaller. Also had during that time a Honda Civic, never needed anything major.
At present: A Mazda 6 wagon, bought because we have had good luck with Mazdas but are a little concerned about the Ford connection. Also a Nissan Maxima, fabulous car.
Notice we don't always buy the same brands as our needs have changed, if the make we liked before didn't have what we wanted the next time around. For example, Toyota's RAV 4 was much too small at that time, so we bought the Forester instead. We didn't like the Accord as much as the Civic, so we bought a Maxima. But we just don't look at "American" cars anymore at all.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Huh??? Please provide a link to this "fact".
The [non-permissible content removed] never "agreed" not to compete in the "big rig" market.
There was a 25% tariff on imported trucks at one point, and a voluntary total vehicle import quota from Japan, but no "negotiated agreement" to not sell trucks here. The Transplants with their laughably low domestic content quickly made the voluntary quotas irrelevant in the 80's.
As for that truck tariff, I think it might still apply. Aren't most Japanese trucks built in the US these days to get around it?
The full-sized SUV market really didn't explode until well into the mid 90's. When the Expedition came on the scene and the Tahoe/Yukon sprouted an extra set of doors, that's when it took off. When the Explorer replaced the Bronco II, that's when the small SUV market really opened up wide and got swept up by an eager public.
"It's always wonderful and perfect; it's a foreign car and nothing ever is wrong..."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Eat your lo mein, Chang! Don't you know there are kids starving in America?"
On Japanese television, "For only 89 yen a day you can sponsor a poor, starving child in America" as images of gaunt Caucasian, African-American, and Latino children with doleful eyes appear on the screen with long-abandoned steel mills and auto factories in the background.
In about 50-100 years in China:
Deng: "I just went to the Great Wal-of-China-Mart to buy a Shanghai toaster. My mother had one and it was great, but guess what? I flipped it over and it said 'Made in U.S.A.' on the bottom! Those Americans working in non-union sweatshops for peanuts are taking all our jobs!"
Li: "You should buy a Mao toaster! They're still proudly made in China by Chinese union workers!"
The people who will really resent our generation will be our children and grandchildren. We had a chance to stop the above scenarios from happening and did nothing!
I love Hondas, but I complain about my Odyssey a lot. I hate that thing.
As the Host and others have said, if one car or car company give you major problems, this will color your view of them for quite a long time.
And if you need a full-size truck, for example, you will love the Big3, and see no need to shop imports. That's all fine and good.
But the Big3 made a nice chunk of change in the SUV-era, and I don't see any fruits of that profit except from Chrysler, who probably made the least from that decade of dominance.
Why do we have to wait 7 YEARS for Ford/Lincoln to field an RX330 competitor?
In a few classes, the Big3 have EARNED a market advantage, but in most cases, they are struggling to keep up, or are too far behind to matter.
GM is not broke! They don't have Toyota-level cash, but they have too much to field the LOUSY lineup we are getting! :mad:
And the opposite is true. If you have had great times driving Accords, Civics, Camrys, Corollas, Tacomas, why would you stop at a Chevy store? To drive a Malibu? To fire-up a 5-cylinder Colorado? Geez.... :sick:
DrFill
First car I ever rode in (I am told): my dad's mid-60s Beetle. That thing was awesome for him, sold only because he was moving. Lived in Europe for a while, Dad bought a Citroen wagon, what a mess (but it WAS the 70s), sold that when we moved to the U.S.
He had loved his VW so much we bought a Westfalia camper van, also a Corolla wagon for my mom because there weren't many choices in small wagons back then - purely random. The VW van was torture from the word go. Nothing ever worked right, it was in the shop all the time, stranded us on road trips many times. The Corllla, OTOH, never needed any repairs and just cruised right along.
So, after suffering the VW for nine long years (my dad is a glutton for punishment), my dad's choice to replace it was the very first Toyota minivan in '84. The next year I bought the Corolla from him, and he bought himself a Celica GTS.
The van lasted 17 years and 224K miles before my folks sold it to a new family, still worth $2000 even then. Never needed any major repairs, rock-solid, but the steering rack was suffering at the end there.
Dad's Celica wasn't driven as much and sold at 12 years/150K miles because my dad had a twinkle in his eye for one of them thar SUV-thingummys. The Celica never needed any repairs either, but WAS weeping P/S fluid and oil all over the road by the time it went off to a new home. Still ran perfectly.
The van got replaced by a Honda Civic, running strong at 60K miles and 5 years without any repairs yet. The Celica got replaced by an Explorer (told you Dad was a glutton for punishment), which after 7 years and close to 90K miles has needed extensive repairs to the electrical system to the tune of a cumulative $2000 or so, a complete brake overhaul to the tune of $800, and has had intermittent start problems that the dealer cannot trace (not a battery fault). Now it has begun to shift badly - uh oh.
Based on my parents' cars, my sister has bought Toyota Corollas exclusively - the first a late 80s FX which gave her trouble (overheating) after the 150K mile mark, and more recently a late 90s sedan which has just reached 200K miles and needed its first repair: CV joints. Not used to spending money repairing cars, my sister is considering selling.
I owned exclusively Japanese cars for many years also, based on my parents' experience. In '94, I decided to buy new and went to look at a Saturn - I was drawn in by the talk of Saturn being the import-fighting company. The SL2 seemed decent at the price and got great fuel economy, liked it enough to buy one. Within 2 1/2 years and 48K miles it had major electrical problems, then a fuel pump failure. Being a newbie to new-car buying, I had purchased an extended warranty, and ended up getting WAY more than I paid for it in those two repairs. That was also when I ran out of patience and sold it (upside down, of course).
The Saturn is the only new car I have ever bought that broke down while under warranty, or indeed in the first 100K miles. Now I ask you, based on the experience I have had, as well as that of my family, why would I go out and try other brands? Between Toyota, Honda, and Subaru, I can always find something I like that fits my needs.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
She said that the service guy said that bad starters and solenoids were a common problem on Ions. Yippee. Score another for GM....or if nothing else their low-bid supplier that made the starter!
Wouldn't it be cool if it was the same supplier that sold them to Honda, Toyota, or whatever? At least back when my Gran Fury used to eat its newfangled lightweight starters on a regular basis, I could jokingly blame it on Honda, because it was the same part! :P That car also used a GM (Quadrajet) carb, so I could blame its carburetor woes on GM, and still put Mopar up on the pedestal! :shades:
Ford
Dodge
Pontiac
Dodge
Ford
Pontiac
Plymouth
Pontiac
Pontiac
VW
Chevrolet
Honda
Honda
Chevrolet
Honda
Nissan
Honda
Honda
Acura
Acura
Wife and I have had multiple cars/vehicles at same time over the years.
The Nissan and recent Hondas and Acuras have been virtually bullit-proof. The total amount of miles combined on both Acuras is 125K and they have been/are absolutely bullit-proof. Only things done to them is normal maintenance.
The last three Hondas had/have a total of 160K and there were two issues on them. On one, the power rear antenna failed after a couple of years and was replaced under warranty. On the other, the interior light switch failed after a couple of years and was replaced under warranty.
The first Honda we had was built in Japan and was more reliable then the 2nd built in Ohio. Japan Honda alternator lasted to about 190K whereas Ohio Honda alternator had to be replaced at about 100K. Would be interesting to know the differences in design/engineering/manufacture between these alternators. Still have Nissan, built in Japan, and is very solid/reliable at 172K with not much done except maintenance items.
Will need a lot of incentive to switch from extremely reliable Japanese brands to an American brand in the future. But, who knows. Might do so if American brand came out with truly stunning design and/or some type of breakthrough. Of course, brand would have to have decent reliability record in recent times and be on a par with Japanese in performance/quality/materials/fit/finish. Not asking for too much.
The 60's:
1957 Chevy convertible - not sure if it was bought new or used (I suspect used). Ran great until Dad had an encounter with a cement truck on highway 101 in Santa Barbara. Totalled.
Early 60's VW Bug - again, not sure if this was bought new or used, but was Mom's around town car. No problems that I was ever aware of.
Early 50's Ford pickup - bought used; dad used it to get back and forth to work (fireman) and for his second job (carpenter / handyman).
1967 VW Squareback - the Beetle was too small after my sister was born, so it got traded in for this. Ran pretty well early on; in fact, we took it from CA to NY and back in the summer of 1971.
The 70's:
1970 Chevy C10 half ton - bought new. Mom told Dad that this was the last truck he would ever buy. He must have taken her at her word, because 35 years later, he still has it. Engine was rebuilt at 100-110K; the truck itself has maybe 150-160K on it. Been repainted twice and just came out of a major restoration (new windows, rubber gaskets around windows, dashboard, exterior trim) - probably $5K total, which Dad thought was better than $15-20K for a new truck. Runs like a top after all these years.
1973 Toyota Corona - the Squareback started having some engine issues, so it was traded in on this. I remember the folks looking at the Mazda RX-2 or RX-3 sedan as well. Don't think they even considered anything domestic. This was my Mom's primary car for the next decade, until it was totalled in an accident in 1981 - I was driving (oops!).
The 80's:
1972 MB 220D - replaced the Corona as the family car. Dad thought it was a good deal - I think he paid $4K for it. Within 3 or 4 months it needed a total engine rebuild, which cost something like $2500. Mom hated to drive it.
1983 Toyota Celica - the Benz was traded in for this used car. As both my sister and I had our licenses, Mom felt she didn't need a sedan. Ran pretty well until Mom learned about timing belts and interference engines while on the 101 about 35 miles from home. Engine repaired and again ran well enough for me to acquire a speeding ticket in it on PCH.
The 90's:
1991 Toyota Camry - the Celica was sold outright and my Dad bought this (again, used) for Mom. DX trim, pretty solid car for the years that they owned it.
2000's:
2003 Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 - while there was nothing really wrong with the Camry, it had 70-80K on it and Mom wanted one last new car. They were primed to buy another Camry, but Dad found out that he could get a V6 Sonata for the price of a 4-cyl Camry. That, plus the fact that it has thicker gauge steel and the stellar warranty convinced him first, then my mom. They've had this car for 2 1/2 years and 12K miles.
As you can see, they've been import buyers for the most part, which influenced me when I started to buy my own cars. However, about 8 or 9 years ago, my current wife convinced me to try domestics again and I was surprised to find that they were just as reliable as anything I'd owned from Honda, Mazda or Nissan.
"Ford's diesel drama drags on: Power Stroke woes anger buyers, drive up warranty costs"
http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103776
Today's engines can get 300,000 miles
Lowest price: $17,365 with 2.2-liter 4-cylinder engine and 4-speed automatic transmission
Details and more photos
The Chevrolet Malibu is no-one's idea of a great car. Brakes, steering, the base engine and the interior are all sub-par, according to Edmunds.com. But there is plenty of space inside and, particularly if purchased with side airbags, it's a very safe family car.
The Malibu earned a Silver award as a Top Safety Pick from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.
Toyota Camry
Lowest price: $19,545 with 2.4-liter 4-cylinder engine and manual transmission
Details and more photos
The Camry is always near the top of the list of best-selling cars in America. The reason is simple: Anyone who buys a Camry can rest assured they didn't make a dumb purchase. It's a good car, it's got a strong reputation for reliability and its resale value is excellent. Plus, if you're concerned about American manufacturing jobs, it's built right here in the U.S.A.
Perhaps most importantly, it's safe, earning top scores across the board. There are cheaper cars in its class and, according to Edmunds.com, the Camry V-6 engines aren't the strongest around, but the Camry has become the default car for good reason.
These two quotations are taken from a CNN Money review of safe cars. http://money.cnn.com/popups/2005/autos/safe_cheap/frameset_cnn.exclude.html
The Malibu is the car that GM has given us to compete with the Camry. Why would anyone buy the Malibu?
I'm also guessing those are MSRP prices. I spec'd out a Camry a couple months ago, and to get an SE V-6 the way I wanted it, it only came out to around $21-22K in the TMV department.
I'm sure a strippo Camry could be had for much less than $19.5K. Of course, a strippo Malibu could also most likely be had for a lot less than $17.4K.
'53 Ford Fairlane - All I remember was it was the a two-tone car with light green and teale paint.
'61 Olds 88 - I remember it had a cool speedometer that kind of rolled versus having a needle.
'63 Buick LeSabre - Green, it was light green. No other memory about it.
'68 Olds 88 - The car I learned to drive on. 455 engine with power to spare for on-ramp merging. I totalled it when I spun out merging onto a highway bridge in the rain.
'73 Ford Galaxie - Choked by emissions equipment. No power AND no fuel economy. 351 Windsor V8. The frame had the worst case of scaling rust I'd every seen on any car before or since. Tap the frame with a hammer and watch the rust fall off...
'76 VW Dasher - Fuel efficient and surprisingly roomy. Unfortunately, the fuel injection system was "not ready for prime time" yet and few maechanics were really comfortable working on the Bosch jetronic system. Prone to rust if dinged. Every cent saved in gasoline went to repairing it. 1.6 litre engine - when it ws running well, it was very responsive and fun to drive. Would blow the doors off a relative's Chevy Chevette (also with a 1.6 litre engine) of the same vintage.
'81 Ford Fairmont - My first company car. Don't remember the displacement (maybe 200 c.i.?), but it had the straight six engine that must have been transplanted from a Ford agricultural tractor - it was very uncomfortable at higher RPM's. Front suspension (macpherson struts) lasted 12,000 miles - covered under warranty and the OEM replacements last almost exactly 12,000 miles! The car would idle up so high when the a/c was on that it was almost like having your foot on the gas - great fun in the winter when the defroster was used with that dang a/c compressor running. OTOH, it had the coldest a/c I've ever experienced in a car - you could rent it out as a meat locker.
'83 Plymouth Horizon - already discussed it's points.
'87 VW Golf - nice, but killed by accidents. 1.8 SOHC engine was strong.
'92 Mazda Protege - very nice car for the price. Fuel efficient, fast, nicely equipped and ran for 165,000 miles. 1.8 DOHC engine was delightful. My wife still misses it.
'97 Honda Accord - currently with 110,000 miles on it. Never spent a dime on it (other than maintenance - oil, tires, brakes) until our 7th year of ownership. Then it needed a new ECU, radiator, and front wheel bearings (both sides) - all covered under an extended warranty that I began to think I would never use. Running strong right now. Long-term mileage is somewhere around 25 MPG since purchased new.
'03 VW Passat - The only car at it's price point at the time that had the right combination of safety, features, looks and fuel economy in a wagon. Gets 32 MPG on the highway, 21 around town. Six airbags, and a strong passenger compartment. 1.8T is strong, but needs TLC. 30,000 trouble-free miles to date. Only been in the garage for state inspections and oil changes.
I'd like to see Ford make a wagon version of the Fusion. I haven't seen anything from GM, other than perhaps the Caddie CTS, that I would ever consider actually owning. And the CTS is too rich for my budget (unless they do that emplyee pricing thing again). The recently re-designed Subie Legacy wagon catches my eye when I see one on the road. The new Ford stuff looks okay, but it's still not meeting my needs since the only wagon Ford makes is the Focus (too small) and the Taurus (too antiquated). And I don't want a SUV. Chrysler only has the PT Cruiser (ummm, no thanks) and the Magnum wagon (too big and inefficient).
the Camry V-6 engines aren't the strongest around
So, according to CNN, the Malibu's weak base (4 cyl) engine makes it "sub par," but the Camry's weak V6s "aren't the strongest around". Two statements saying the exact same thing, with very different implications. It's statements like these that cause the belief that there is an anti american-made bias in the press. I don't believe that reporters are sitting around some table somewhere actively coming up with ways to promote imports and trash domestics, but I do believe that reporters (and the general public) have a predisposition to dislike american designed cars. (Probably because of bad experiences with them in the 80's and 90's) If you go into a test predisposed to like or dislike a car, you're most likely going to notice things that reaffirm your expectations, and disregard things that conflict with what you expect.
Also notice the different wording talking about the crash test scores. According to the edmunds comparison tool the crash scores are virtually identical. (And according to Edmunds, the Malibu does better in side impact rear collisions. Apparently that's not part of "across the board")
The articles also completely leaves out fuel economy, where the malibu is better than the Camry. (especially with the V6)
The Malibu's 4-cylinder is not just weak, but "sub par" in most other areas. It is coarse, unrefined and generally lacking in reliability in comparison with Japanese 4-cylinders.
This doesn't look like bias to me. If you read a car magazine from England, then you might see some bias.
For the rest of us it gets conspicuously less easy to stomach with every passing day, and now, as it nears the end of its life cycle, that impossibly camp appearance has further deteriorated with the merciless passage of time.
In fact, the PT Crusier seems so dated both inside and out that the inclusion of a new 2.4-litre petrol engine seems akin to defibrillating a cadaver.
The elephant hide interior trim and dashboard plastics belong to an altogether different era of car making, and the switch gear and instruments are laid out in a fashion that points pretty squarely to an unsuccessful experiment with a lab full of monkeys and an eighties automotive parts bin.
Where is there any evidence that the Ecotec 4 Cyl., or any recent GM engine has a reliability or durability issue. The only major, widespread reliability/durability issue I can think of with GM engines over the past 10 - 15 years was the warped plastic intake manifold issue on the 3.1/3.4 V-6. On the other hand, everyone paying attention knows about the Toyota engine sludge issue.
I can't think of anything to complain about with my wife's Malibu Maxx. I've driven it enough now to definitely say I prefer it to the rental Camries I've driven, even the V-6 Camries. The current 2005 Camry rental cars handle about like the old Buick Century rental cars did, they heel over in turns like you're tacking a large sail boat.
I have not driven either, but I would assume that the Camry is more reliable and a "nicer" car to drive. If you take the resale value out of the equation, you must still live with the vehicle and drive it every day. You want the best driving vehicle and one that you do not have to take into the dealer, even if it is under warranty. A more pleasant car to drive which is more reliable is worth more money.
Good resale also helps. I have a 1999 Intrepid ES with 65K miles on it($23K purchased new) which is worth about $4-5K. An equivalent Camry or Accord would not have cost more and would be worth twice that. So even if you own a vehicle for six or seven years, there is still a big difference in the resale and there are much worse examples than the one that I have given.
1967 Grand Prix convertible – mom loved hers until some lady destroyed it in a parking lot.
1977 Ford Econoline Van – Mom’s. Always had engine problems.
1981 Lincoln Zephyr – Dad’s and it ran well until he sold it to a neighbor
1984 Chevy Camaro Z28 – lots of electrical problems and automatic tranny was garbage.
1985 Chevy Citation II – you name, it broke.
1988 Ford Taurus – 4 cylinder rolling junk pile
1992 Ford Ranger Supercab – rock solid
1983 Ford EXP – my first car. I spent every weekend fixing parts (mine)
1994 Mercury Grand Marquis – tranny and engine both went out
1955 Ford T-bird – show car and dad’s removed and replaced/polished every single part on the car. (still owned - though he may finally be selling it to make a new show car)
1995 Ford F250 – used to tow show car
1991 Nissan Stanza – brake problems, head gaskets blew monthly. (mine)
1999 Mercury Grand Marquis – engine/tranny issues (still owned)
2000 Mazda Miata – rock solid (still owned)
2001 Jetta GLS 1.8T – constant problems with electrics. Engine coils went, interior plastics broke. (mine)
2002 Ford Excursion diesel – perfect (still owned)
1957 Ford Thunderbird – second show car (still owned)
2003 Mazda Protégé ES – best car I’ve ever owned, perfect commuter (mine, bought new, sold June of 05)
2003 BMW 330i ZHP – constant electrical problems, engine stutter BMW can’t fix, e-brake broke, engine coils blew, sensor failure constantly, parking light failure (mine, bought new, still owned)
My european cars have been unreliable vis-a-vis my japanese cars yet I'll most likely replace the bimmer with a german car as nothing american or japanese excites me.
That is were you are wrong. Many people continue to have bad experience in 2000's with domestic cars. The press does not sell cars that are not yet ready for prime time. The press reports on the news. Press did not force Ford to release 6.0l Diesel with all of these problems.
Ford has problems to produce a reliable truck. Trucks are the bread and butter at Ford. This is happening NOW, not 10 years ago. Truck owners are the most loyal customers domestics have. If domestics loose their truck customers, there will be no customers left.
Reviews are largely opinion pieces, not hard new stories. And there's a great deal of editorial discretion in what is reported and what is not. With all of the talk about high oil prices lately, why would a report on two mainstream cars completely leave out fuel economy? The fact that the Malibu has class leading fuel economy does not fit with the editorial tone of the review.
Regarding the ford diesel. Yeah, they put out a lemon on that one. And the media has covered every single recall in great detail, and treated them as a sign that Ford couldn't produce anything good. But I also seem to recall several stories about the holier-than-thou Toyota Prius stalling at highway speeds, but none of these stories took that little problem as a sign that Toyota puts out crap.
You stated that the Japanese 4 Bangers are more reliable than the Ecotec in the Malibu, is there any evidence to support this? There should be totally objective, factual information on this issue available, engine reliability is not a subjective judgment made by biased consumers (well, a CU survey might be suspect). Subjective perceptions can be applied to NVH, quality of the plastics (my God, plastic is plastic is plastic!), switchgear feel, etc. Lack of engine reliability should be factual, not just, "I feel like my Toyota sludger 4 cyl. will be more reliable than a Malibu Ecotec".
Close...that 200 CID engine dates back to, IIRC, the 144 CID unit used in the 1960 Falcon! Ford also had a 250 inline-6 in the 70's, which was used in the Granada. I think it was a different design though, and was derived from the more modern Ford 240 CID big car 6 that debuted around 1965. I'm not sure, but I think the 300 straight six used in trucks might've also been related.
As for that little Fairmont 6, it actually survived up through 1995, in the Tempo/Topaz! Ford just lopped two cylinders off of it to make a 4-cyl.
But the Malibu comes in a little under that price. Often including a V6 from what others have written earlier compared to a 4 from the others.
I hear a lot of criticism but little substance--like someone saying "I own one" and this and that compared to the others. I hear religion but I don't hear much science.
My perception is it wasn't intended to compete with Camry 6 cyl auto and Accord 6 cyl auto. It was aimed slightly below: that's how HoToy gained much of the market, they aimed slightly off from what others offered and they found sweet spots.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Absolutely. I'll take them off your hands for a nominal fee.
Now maybe I could get used to it, but as is, it did nothing for me.
As for cost versus resale, the point I was trying to make is that some people simply can't afford a more expensive car up-front, even if it costs them less in the long run due to better resale. For instance, if I qualify for a $15K car that will be worth zero in 5 years, but I can't get approved for anything more than that, can't scrounge together a down payment, or get a co-signer, then even if there was a $20K car that would be worth $15K in 5 years, it would be a moot point...because that $20K car would be out of reach in the first place!
And if you want a worse example of resale, look no further than me...my '00 Trep has around 113,000 miles on it and is just a base model...I bet I'd have to almost pay someone to take it off my hands! :P
Just to see how prices are, I spec'd out a Camry using Edmunds, the way I'd probably want one equipped. I picked an SE with the 3.3 V-6/automatic, and no options...it basically comes with everything I'd care about...power stuff, sunroof, alloys, cd player, ABS. MSRP came to $24,605 with freight, and TMV came to $22,122.
Now, on to the Malibu. Here I picked the LT sedan with the 3.5 V-6. I didn't want the luxury stuff of the LTZ, and while I did pick the sportiest Camry, in this case I didn't want a Malibu SS, because the 3.9 is a bit of a guzzler, while the 3.5 is still adequate enough. I added a sunroof, ABS w/ traction control, and a nice stereo with a 6-disc changer. It looks like alloy wheels aren't available on the LT, unfortunately. Anyway, I came up with an MSRP of $23,115, and a TMV of $20,170.
Hmm, am I missing something here? When you figure the Camry has alloy wheels and a power driver's seat and probably a few other niceties to go along with its $2000 higher price, the Malibu just doesn't seem like that much better of a deal? I'm guessing that real transaction prices are still lower than this TMV estimate?
Funny thing is, on the surface, the Malibu does seem like a lot of car for the money. FWIW, my Intrepid's price, with freight, was something like $19986+ tags, tax, and all the other add-ons. And I had gotten them to throw in a 12-disc CD changer. When you figure the Malibu's 6 years newer, would have ABS, the sunroof, and a better engine (I think the LT also has standard remote start), the 'Bu seems like a good deal to me. UNTIL you put it up against the Camry.
Well, I tried to defend the Malibu and I guess I blew it...sorry GM, I tried!
Does this mean that we will now get Ford with some style? I suppose that F350 King Ranch in HOT PINK with BLACK interior will became a popular choice now.
http://www.forbes.com/2005/12/14/ford-jaguar-gay-cx_gl_1214autofacescan17.html