Actually, I think Lincoln advertised this against the acura tsx at the Dertoit auto show last year. At least these cars are decent looking. same for fusion.
xrunner: I didn't say management wasn't responsible for the ills gm faces. Admit it, the UAW pattern bargaining is done for 1 reason: to squeeze as much out of the auto companies as possible. Each if the big 3 used to give in to this because they were competing against one another - al ltheir costs went up the same. No longer the case. I think Wagoner is trying to turn the company around as quickly as he can, whereas ihs 3-4 predecessors were all pathetic. Let's say that poor management and outrageous union demands have jointly contirbuted to gm's problem.
Don't fall for that old trick that it costs too much to build a good car!!!!!!!!!!! Bluetooth technology is cheap. Think about it. You can go to a cellular store and buy a bluetooth device for practically nothing. You can buy mp3 players cheap. Satellite radio is now the thing too. And navigation is so easy now, it will be offered as a service on your cell phone any day now! No, technology is not a problem of expense. Don't be fooled.
At one time they told you that anti-skid brakes would make the cars too expensive, remember? Then they told you that air bags were too expensive, remember? They've told you that traction control and vehicle stability is too expensive, and they will tell you that EVERYTHING is too expensive, and they are full of it, and that's why they don't sell cars the same way the Japanese do. Listen to the speech by the president of Honda recently. It is a philosophical difference almost. For years, the domestics would give you as little car as possible to squeeze out every dollar. The Japanese well-equip their vehicles as standard operating procedure, including safety and technology. People pay top dollar for a Lexus. Why? They will tell you why. They will say that they are reliable and have a lot of features for the money. That appeals to a lot of people, and the American car companies have shot themselves in the foot again and again and again. They are out of touch, otherwise they would not be in the predicament they are in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They will NOT listen to you and me. They think they have good marketing. They don't, obviously! They will continue down the road to their own death. To dig out now would be a major undertaking that is near impossible. The Pontiac Solstice will not save GM, but it is the right idea. . . a lot of car for the money. Do it in a sedan, and an SUV, and a minivan, and a pickup truck, and a sport coupe, and THEN maybe, just maybe there's a chance. But it's really almost too late. Excite the world with great products! Keep them fresh and don't let the style get old in the tooth.
All this talk and I'm afraid it is looking bad for the big 2. Next it's the Big 1. Remember, next model year the Chinese will most likely be sending cars over to our shores and selling them for a fraction of what we are used to! How can we compete with that? It looks bad, my friends, very bad for the American manufacturers. IDIOTS that committed corporate suicide!!!!!!!!!!!! And they lived to kill themselves AGAIN!!!!!!! Hopeless, unless they LISTEN and LEARN . . . FAST, very FAST!!!
With 300Hp Lexus' and 270HP TL's and 280HP G35's, why look at a Zephyr?
Power isn't everything, but who wants the defining characteristic in a test drive to be "It's not as strong/smooth/fun as the...."
Lincoln is done!
People forget that Toyota and Honda took 30 years to build, or rebuild, theri reputations with Civics and Corollas. They started at the foundation of their lineup, and built it up from there. A slow, but unbeatable strategy.
Does the Big 3 have anything approaching a Corolla or Civic? In economy, in refinement, in value?
Lincoln COULD'VE started rebuilding their image with the Zephyr, but where is this car going? they COULD'VE waited until the Johnny-come-lately 3.5 V6 got here.
Neither the Fusion or Zephyr has enough power or value to compete in their class. The Fusion is slightly better than adequate, and the Accord will be new in 2008, Camry in 3 months!
The Zephyr can't even dream of comparing itself to Tl's and G35's, so why bring it out?
Find a starting point, and build a foundation for your marque. We build great trucks. Or Sports cars. Or something.
Be a leader in something! Look at the best in a class, and shoot well over their head. Aim to be not just better now, but better when they redesign!
Our last two new vehicles were Hondas because they demonstrated some loyalty to their customers. GM failed to do so and it will be a cold day before I buy any of their products again.<\i>
You are so right. I had a similar problem with my Ford Expedition. The brake pads were making too much dust, and Ford released a new brake pad which fixed the problem. They would not replace my front brakes because the car had more then 12K. It was still under warrantee but more then 12K. Well they only released the pads after I had 12k. Arguing with the dealer did not help. So now my new car is Honda Odyssey. Who knows if they treated me better maybe I would buy a Freestyle. But that left a bad taste in my mouth, and I have owned Ford all of my life.
It will take a whole new way of using the technology that is available and putting it to good use. For years, the domestics wouldn't put the safety in. Now, they advertise it as a good thing. 180 degree turn. It's time to turn 180 degrees and include really good navigation, bluetooth, multimedia and useful features in domestic cars. Chrysler owned the minivan market at one point because they were innovative. If you do something the best, you'll sell as many as you can. As far as GM goes, it was just plain stupid to save all the good stuff for Cadillac, for example.
Tagman, you are exactly correct. Where is the aggressiveness to continuously improve? When we have seen it from the big 3, it is because their backs are against the wall, not because it is in their cultures.
Take Apple Computer. They had a huge hit in the ipod mini. And this last summer they KILLED IT, in the peak of its popularity. They brought out the iPod nano, even sleeker and better! This is the kind of aggressive improvements the big 3 need to be taking, they need to be LEADERS, not FOLLOWERS.
Honda was a leader in variable valve timing. Toyota is a leader in hybrid technology.
What is GM a leader in? Engines? Style? Reliability? How about big, heavy, gas guzzling trucks with 40 year old pushrod engines?
Perception is more important than reality. I have a '96 Ranger and my friend has a '96 Accord. She has 6,000 more miles than I have and in the past two years she has spent a little over three grand fixing her Accord, while I have never had to pay to fix anything on my Ranger -- literally the only thing that has ever broken was the CD changer and that was covered years ago under warranty.
When she tells me how she loves her Accord and how reliable it is, and how her next car will only be a Honda or Acura, I ask her why she wouldn't consider a Ford. Her reply is that they are not reliable. I always then remind her of the exemplary history of my truck and her response is something to the effect of "yeah, but... well, Fords just... are not good." The idea that Fords aren't good is set in her mind and nothing is going to change it (even though it is fun to try!)
I've had both foreign and domestic cars and they all seemed to be about the same, reliability wise, with the Ranger being the only one that really stands out as head and shoulders above them all.
Think about it. You can go to a cellular store and buy a bluetooth device for practically nothing.
Unfortunately the thing is they sell the phones at a major loss and make it up on the service plans, its not as cheap as you would think.
And navigation is so easy now, it will be offered as a service on your cell phone any day now!
Most likely not, at least not GPS. It will most likely use the cellular signal to triangulate your position. Anyway I have a cheaper navigation system, its called a map. I can read one and trust it more than a nav system.
People pay top dollar for a Lexus. Why?
Not for what you say, they buy a Lexus for the name. Its called snob appeal. Pay close attention to their ads, they market the Lexus name.
Remember, next model year the Chinese will most likely be sending cars over to our shores and selling them for a fraction of what we are used to!
One word response: YUGO
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree Lincoln has to put in at least a supercharged V-6 if not a powerful V-8 in the Zephyr and mate it to a good 6 speed manual and that car will fly off the showroom floor.
My Zephyr is sitting there crying over what has become its nameplate.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My point exactly, my sister thinks her Toyota is flawless even though you can set your watch by it going back to the shop.
I've had both foreign and domestic cars and they all seemed to be about the same, reliability wise,
I agree, the best car I ever had was a Chevy Corsica with a 4 banger in it. That car got a ton of miles (well over 300k) with only routine maintenance plus a gasket replacement.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
What about managements' strategies, or lack thereof, in early 80's when Japanese started to be a threat.
I am willing to be corrected since it was 20 yrs ago but in the period you mentioned ( '80's ) a similar situation as now was occuring. There was a significant threat from Japanese makers and the unions. Two things occured to settle things down.
If I remember correctly from being a supplier to the auto makers, GM was excoriated for avoiding a strike by the UAW by agreeing to a new job security provision in their contract in exchange for cost reductions/closures. What was being said at the time was that GM was just delaying the inevitable. Ford and Chrysler had to acquiece since the UAW came to agreement with GM as the 'target' company.
At roughly the same time an agreement was made with the Japanese in lieu of tariffs and quotas that the 'Big 3' from Japan would not import/build Big Trucks/SUV's except for Toyota which was already here with the Land Cruiser ( big for that time ). This essentially left the entire Truck/SUV market open to the US makers for 20 years. That unofficial gentlemens agreement expired in 2003 or 04. Hence the Titan/Armada and now the Ridgeline. The 20 years was supposed to buy the US makers time to make money in the more profitable truck segment. The Japanese were allowed to dominate the 'small' auto sector... low margin, who cares.
Fast forward 20 yrs ... the Asians ( incl Hyundai )have found a way to make money from small and medium vehicles and the Big 2 + C have painted themselves into a corner with monsters that may not fit these volatile times.
If the economies of China and India continue to boom and they begin to suck up all the oil on the planet due to their sheer size and growth rate $2/gal gas is likely to be the bottom and $4/gal is the more likely level. Given this scenario trucks and SUV's powered with current technology are likely to be specialty vehicles again for work-related projects as opposed luxo-barges for moving half the soccer team.
Now be creative and bring alternate-fuel-powered trucks etc to the market and the Big 2 + C can maintain their market position in these big rigs. At the same time 'buy' back the American auto consumer who wants an appliance vehicle. Match Hyundai's price and vehicles and warranties.
OTOH allow Toyota and Nissan to suddenly spring 30 mpg diesel and or hybrid/diesel trucks on the market and try to force feed a 4c auto market with old tech V6's .. well then .. 'Will the last person out of Detroit please turn off the lights?'
Toyota and Honda dont lead in much of anything. This is nothing more than a big myth supported by the media and everyone knows the Japanese are more "improvers" than innovators. They lead in hybrid technology (for now) and in fuel efficiency of SMALL CARS. That's about it. They aren't leaders in safety features (Europeans have them beat there), styling, interior innovation, performance or fuel economy when it comes to trucks and SUVs. In fact if you look at Toyota and Honda trucks you will see they offer less power and equal or less fuel economy than comparable domestics. People are always praising Toyota and Honda for leading the crossover movement but some of their crossovers (Honda Pilot for example) offer negligible fuel economy gains over heavier, more powerful body on frame Suvs like the trailblazer. On top of that Toyota and Nissan make quite a few gas guzzling body on frame trucks that arent cant even match the hp of competing models.
As for those who seem to think the hybrid game is over with Toyota being the runaway winner, just remember that Chrysler invented and owned the minivan market for at least a decade but now no one considers their vans the benchmarks. Toyota got the early lead, but they are going to be facing intense competition for hybrid customers within the next two years or so. GM and Ford have a number of hybrid cars and SUVs on the way that are going cut right into Toyotas dominance of the market. another thing, import lovers need to stop acting like Honda has a huge hybrid precense. They do not and they have not committed to developing any hybrids beyond the Accord and Civic. GM has announced at least four hyrbrid products to debut in 2006 and 2007.
IMO, there is a big difference between quality in reliability. My wife's 03 Taurus company has been perfectly reliable with near 55,000 miles on it. But the quality still sucks. The transmission has horrible shift quality, it's slow, it rattles, and has a general feeling of cheapness. When I've driven my MIL's Camry back to back, it feels like a car that cost twice as much.
I won't even talk about my '00 Suburban with only 58k miles. It has cost me nearly $3k in repairs this year alone. The repair costs don't bother me nearly as much as the things I can't fix. Embarrasingly cheap interior parts and design, rattles, numb steering and brakes, horrible panel gaps. Even if it was 100% reliable, it's still a POS based on the intangibles which the majority of Ford & GM vehicles lack. The only reason I keep it is for its utility.
If your main requirement is reliability, then a domestics will serve you well. But if you value refinement, look elsewhere.
On top of that Toyota and Nissan make quite a few gas guzzling body on frame trucks that arent cant even match the hp of competing models
Well HP doesn't mean a whole lot in SUVs. Look at the torque figures. You can get more torque in a 4runner or Pathfinder than you can get in a Trailblazer.
Nissan's 5.6 offers more torque at a lower rpm than any engine you can get in a mainstream 1/2 ton truck or SUV. It even has more torque at a lower rpm than GMs 6.0L vortec. I've driven an Armada it will absolutely smoke my Suburban in any situation. It drives much nicer too. I just wish Nissan didn't go cheap on the interior or I'd own one. I know they've had some reliability problems, but it certainly couldn't be any worse than my Suburban.
I only have three: a 1989 Cadillac Brougham, a 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, and a 1988 Buick Electra Park Avenue. Once upon a time I had five. One was a Ford LTD taxicab.
If I had only one car, I sure as heck wouldn't have anything as plebian and ordinary as any Toyota. I'd have the ultimate Cadillac customized to my exact specifications.
As for a regular car, I couldn't go wrong with a Buick. They are extremely durable and long-lasting. My first car, a 1968 Buick, took me through high school and college, and my brother through college and into the first several years of his marriage. He still has my old 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue with over 235K+ miles on it.
When I first graduated from college, I bought a new 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic on which I put 62,000 miles in two years without a hiccup. My 1989 Cadillac Brougham has 156K on it. Most of those miles were accumulated during the early part of the car's life when I had a 24-mile one-way commute. My girlfriend has a 2005 Buick LaCrosse she uses for a 15-mile one way commute each day.
1487, you contradict yourself. First you say that Toyota and Honda don't lead in anything (which is laughable). Then you go on to say that Toyota won't win in hybrids for long, and use Chrysler's slippage in the minivan market as an example of why Toyota is not liklely to hang onto hybrid dominance. Which is it? So I guess Toyota DOES lead in something?
If your main requirement is reliability, then a domestics will serve you well. But if you value refinement, look elsewhere.
Oh I don't know, recently I went car looking at a few dealerships and I will say looking at the top of the line Accord and the top of the line Milan they were equal in refinement. Now I will admit that I didn't test drive either one and my opinion might change with a test drive. But my initial opinion from sitting in them and doing all the touching and feeling is that its 6 of one half dozen of the other.
Now I also checked out the Civic too and thought that the inside left much to be desired.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This is very strange indeed. Consumer Reports has data compiled from owners of these vehicles everyone is talking about here, and they show just the opposite -- Japan makes tend to have fewer problems. If it is a great marketing scheme and only a myth that Japan makes are better, how come the hard data indicates they are better. I currently own a PT Cruiser with just under 6K on it and it has been pretty much perfect, but it is the first non-Japanese make car I have owned which was not delivered to point of sale without several problems built-in. If the big three are producing better cars, that is indeed a good thing. But it is something new on a percentage basis. While it is nice to hear at least one person was happy driving a Corsica for 300K miles, many sold theirs within a few months to a couple years. I can not imagine anyone wanting to own one, let alone for so many years. If the new American makes are better, buy'em! Buy two, they are all on sale! You can't re-write history though in saying that Japan cars were not better over the past couple of decades, or more, and it was all just a myth. The early Japan makes had poor steel, so rust and safety may be an issue. They were more fun to drive, more reliable, and got great gas mileage. That said, something like a Mustang GT would be fun to own, and has an improving record on up to 2004.
While it is nice to hear at least one person was happy driving a Corsica for 300K miles, many sold theirs within a few months to a couple years. I can not imagine anyone wanting to own one, let alone for so many years.
Actually they haven't made them for many years and I still keep seeing them on the road. They had to have been good cars.
FWIW there are plenty of people that don't trust CR to tell them what time it is. In the past they have proven a bias against American cars.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Oh I don't know, recently I went car looking at a few dealerships and I will say looking at the top of the line Accord and the top of the line Milan they were equal in refinement. Now I will admit that I didn't test drive either one and my opinion might change with a test drive.
What you wrote about refinement sounds odd but then you admit you never drove the cars, thus totally negating your initial position. If you've not driven a car then you can't claim it's refined or not. There's more to refinement than panel gaps and plastic quality.
Now I also checked out the Civic too and thought that the inside left much to be desired.
Again, drive it. Drive a Civic and then go drive a cobalt (I've had the misfortune driving it as a rental) and a Forcus (rental) and Neon (rental). There's no comparison. The civic/corolla/mazda3 are leaps and bounds more refined...their engines are smoother, handling sharper and all mechanical/electrical bits feel like quality.
As for the Milan, I admit I've not driven one yet and thus can't comment on its refinement. If it's like the Mazda6, it's a decent car but honestly, the Mazda6 may be a sharper handler than an Accord but the Accord oozes luxury and refinement in ways no Mazda ever has (and I'm a big, big mazda fan).
Again, you're using faulty logic.: see a discontinued car on the road still and thus it must be good...no, that's insanely simplistic.
I have a friend who is driving a 20 year old mopar turbo sedan. By your definition of quality or goodness because people see this car on the road they should assume it's a quality auotmobile. In actuality my friend's grandmother, who lives in the desert, bought it new and barely drove it. When my friend was given the car a few years ago the vehicle had 27k miles on it. We're talking about 1200-1300 miles a year! Her grandmother's driving style and the environment (garaged. dry weather) preserved the car long, long beyond its realistic use-by-date.
So can you say that of the 200-300k corsicas made between x-y years that more than 1% are still operational? That all these cars were used normally (12-15k miles a year)?
What you wrote about refinement sounds odd but then you admit you never drove the cars, thus totally negating your initial position.
How? I got to open and close the doors, see the interior, sit in the seats, see and feel the positions of the controls and play with them for a bit, see and feel the materials. Are you saying that all of that has NOTHING to do with refinement of a car? It seems that you are looking for something just to say "you don't know what you are talking about".
Again, drive it. Drive a Civic and then go drive a cobalt (I've had the misfortune driving it as a rental) and a Forcus (rental) and Neon (rental). There's no comparison.
Drive a Civic? Sorry won't happen unless they allow me to drive it like that guy in the movie Gator. I sat in that car with the seat all the way down and reclined as far back as I dared for driving and my head was still touching the roof.
As for the Focus, I had rented one for a week in Maui and I really like the car. I really enjoyed it on all those winding roads (if you know the road to Hana you know that straight shots are rare). It even did well on the roads we were not supposed to go on. While I will admit that the interior was low grade it did handle well.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Again, you're using faulty logic.: see a discontinued car on the road still and thus it must be good...no, that's insanely simplistic.
OK lets look at the logic I used. If the car was not reliable and no one wants one then not many would be on the road as 1.) no one would be driving what they don't want and 2.) they would have broken down beyond repair. Hence if after being out of production for 7 or 8 years if there are a enough cars left out there to be seen on a regular basis then the car must have been built well enough to last at least those 7-8 years.
No not faulty logic unless quality cars fall off the face of the earth after 5 yeras.
I have a friend who is driving a 20 year old mopar turbo sedan. By your definition of quality or goodness because people see this car on the road they should assume it's a quality auotmobile.
No not by my definition, but by you twisting what I say. Of course one car making it a long time doesn't mean that all of that make are like that. But I didn't say I saw one on the road and claim that it must have been a well made car. I said I see them on the road. Unless some guy likes to paint his 10 year old car every week I am seeing more than one car.
I have seen enough different Corsicas on the road to make the comment that they must have been made well. You twisting what I say and claiming my logic is bad doesn't change that fact.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I was just joking with you on the number of cars that you own. I have a Mazda Miata that is the most reliable car ever. The car is 10 years old and there is nothing that went wrong with it in 10 years. Maybe I changed a set of tires and a battery and thats it in 10 years. The car sits in a garage and has 30k miles on it. I only drive it on real nice days. I think most Non-Italian cars would also be trouble free given these conditions.
My experience with GM cars was much different then yours. I had only two GM cars in my life, a 1974 Firebird and 1988 Olds Cutlass Calais. The Firebird was actually an OK car. The Cutlass was the worst car that I have ever owned. That car was so horrid that I don't think that I ran right in the entire 100K miles that I owned. My fingers would get tired if I had to type every thing that went wrong with that car. I got rid of that car in 1995, and I still have bad memories about it.
Maybe that is what is wrong with GM. This company managed to build products so bad and so hated by consumers that they still talk about it 10 years latter. The only car that I owned that came close to then number of problems was a 1997 BMW 740. That car was also in and out of dealer. At least the BMW was nice to drive when it worked well. The Olds never worked well period.
How? I got to open and close the doors, see the interior, sit in the seats, see and feel the positions of the controls and play with them for a bit, see and feel the materials. Are you saying that all of that has NOTHING to do with refinement of a car? It seems that you are looking for something just to say "you don't know what you are talking about".
The interior tells you very little...it's in the drive. The Lexus GS has a nice interior but that means nothing when the car handles like a pig that's been gorging. When I think of refinement I'm thinking of roadfeel,wind/tire sound, handling, clutch pickup, engine response, exhaust note, AC response/sound.
As for the Focus, I had rented one for a week in Maui and I really like the car. I really enjoyed it on all those winding roads (if you know the road to Hana you know that straight shots are rare). It even did well on the roads we were not supposed to go on. While I will admit that the interior was low grade it did handle well.
I found the engine loud and thrashy. The manuals I've driven were notchy. AC severely sapped what little power the car has. With an automatic driving the car was a nightmare. All things considered, I'm baffled as to how mopar/gm/ford sell any small, midsize or luxury cars as they're always a step down from the european/korean/japanese competition.
I think most Non-Italian cars would also be trouble free given these conditions.
I think your right on that, my moms last car was a chevy that she put less than 50K miles on in 10 years. that car treated her well and was driving pretty good when we sold it.
I also had a 74 Firebird that was a total piece of junk. More likely because its former owner beat the crap out of it, but it only cost me a hundred or so so it was worth it. The trans on it was going out so I drove it for a few months until the trans went out completely. For a while I was driving it without a second gear (it was a stick).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
OK lets look at the logic I used. If the car was not reliable and no one wants one then not many would be on the road as
That's patently false. The reliability of a car has very little to do with if a manufacturer can move it. VW sells 100k Jettas a year...reliability be damned, the cars sell on build feel, look and the drive.
GM sold the Cavalier and its twins for years and year...not good cars and they sold ungoldy numbers of them. Dodge moved hundreds of thousands of neons. Mitsubishi sells eclipses and they've never been good cars - 20 years the nameplate has been around and for 20 years they've been horrible cars. Look at the Mustang...millions of cars and always lousy reliability/build quality.
Sales numbers and reliability are not as intimately familiar as many would have you believe. There's so much more to sales than reliability or build quality.
1.) no one would be driving what they don't want
Again, that's not true. I know many people and have known many who drove cars they hated. They see a Cavalier selling for 5k less than a comparable Civic and they snatch it up. They buy a mustang and discover it's a rolling bucket of bolts within a year but they're upside down and can't get out. It's really not uncommon at all to talk with people who are in cars they dislike.
and 2.) they would have broken down beyond repair.
Again, not always true. Wow, you generalize quite a bit.
Hence if after being out of production for 7 or 8 years if there are a enough cars left out there to be seen on a regular basis then the car must have been built well enough to last at least those 7-8 years.
too many factors to make the jump. The only way to know if the car is reliable:
1. Find the total number sold. 2. Compare that number to total number declared operational nationally. 3. Compare your county's total number of declared operational to the national average. 4. Of the all cars sold in that model determine the mileage at various intervals 1, 2, 3, 4 years, etc. 5. Gather data on the regional use of the car - was it sold in Arizona originally and sat there for 10 years before following a grandson to college on the east coast? That makes a difference. Year 1 - registered in which state/environment, Year 2, etc. 6. Determine oil changes/services performed on the cars running today.
When it's all said and done my money is on two things:
1. You're looking for the car and thus it seems common 2. Your area supports a much large original base of sales and thus has a greater chance of having more of that model per capita than say southern california where that car is rare and mostly seen only in poor neighborhoods.
No not faulty logic unless quality cars fall off the face of the earth after 5 yeras.
Actually, JD power tracks initial quality and longterm reliability expressly because the quality of cars does deteriorate rapidly after year 5.
Look I am not going to argue this point. The fact is I see many on the road even though they haven't made them in like 8 years, That tells me that there is something in the reliability of the car even if you do not, or will not, believe it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think Consumer Reports is very strange indeed. For example, I can not understand how the Mazda B-Series is rated a reliable best pick and the Ford Ranger is not. They are the same truck, designed by the same people, made at the same plant. Yet, readers of CR report fewer problems with the Mazda than the Ford. Is it because there are more Rangers on the road than B-Series, and we're dealing with the law of averages or something? How about the Matrix/ Vibe twins? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but under CR's recommended picks, doesn't it only list the Matrix and not the Vibe? Again, they are the same car. I think this proves that people's perceptions of Japanese makes accounts for a lot more than many people realize. I mean, most people still think the Germans are great cars (which they are -- if you are talking driving dynamics) but they are reported to have more problems on average than American cars, according to JD Power. Would the average Joe think that a Buick was more reliable than a BMW?
The Vibe is a common rental car, so there are more on the used car market which means its resale is lower.
There may be more to it; maybe the Matrix is more easily serviceable because a Toyota mechanic will have a lot of Corolla parts that work for the Vibe. I'm kinda reaching there. Oh, and there's a Vibe GT version which might have more problems and bring down the Vibe's reliability scores. There isn't an equivalent Matrix.
As for Buick/BMW... Buick's always high up on reliability surveys. People know (or believe) that BMWs are expensive to own, but the average joe thinks it's worth it. You get free maintenance for a while anyway, while GM has pretty poor warranties.
03 2wd Vibes are doing all the $$ at the auctions and seeing over the $10 figure .. about the the same $$ as the Matrix .. but your heading in the right direction, put a popular name on anything and you'll see "popular" money ..
Darren Clarke has mentioned his new Taylor R7 Driver about 10 times in the Target Open in the last 3 days .. I bet they sell 5,000 in the next 15 days ... hey, it's popular now ..l.o.l....
Was that post a joke? Bragging about a car trouble free with only 30K miles. Even if it's 10 years old so what? Most cars are trouble free with only 30K miles!
You should go back and read all of the posts starting with #429 . I was simply stating that if people have many cars then they seem reliable no matter what car they own. This is because they don't use cars as much as people who have only one. And yes that post was a joke.
The Matrix XRS is the equivalent to the Vibe GT. Both use the Celica GT-S engine (awesome car, hate to see that one disappear from the 06 lineup). Points taken, but I think it is a simple matter of perception that resulted in better resale values of the Matrix relative to Vibe, or maybe the name is just better since it reminds people of the movie.
If they know this, then why did the Pontiac Vibe depreciate more than the Toyota Matrix?
Because the genius' at GM discount the hell out of it while there are no rebates and very nominal discounts on the Matrix. Go figure? Why does one have a 3/36K Powertrain warranty and the other 5/60K PT warranty?
Corporate policy is putting the GM buyer at a continual disadvantage.
"I think Consumer Reports is very strange indeed. For example, I can not understand how the Mazda B-Series is rated a reliable best pick and the Ford Ranger is not. They are the same truck, designed by the same people, made at the same plant. Yet, readers of CR report fewer problems with the Mazda than the Ford. Is it because there are more Rangers on the road than B-Series, and we're dealing with the law of averages or something?"
I don't see the Mazda Pick-up rated as a best pick. What issue of Cr are your reading?
"Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but under CR's recommended picks, doesn't it only list the Matrix and not the Vibe?"
No, both the Vibe and Matrix are both reccomneded by CR.
"Again, they are the same car. I think this proves that people's perceptions of Japanese makes accounts for a lot more than many people realize."
This maybe a lttle harsh but I don;t think you are reading CR clearly.
"I mean, most people still think the Germans are great cars (which they are -- if you are talking driving dynamics) but they are reported to have more problems on average than American cars, according to JD Power. Would the average Joe think that a Buick was more reliable than a BMW?"
I'll agree with you on your point on your point that American Cars are no less more reliable than German Cars. Its just that German Cars have the prestige factor most American Cars and nearly all of Japanese Cars don't have. On the American side Caddy has some prestige and some Domesic Big 3 models have prestige like the Corvette and Mustang. On the Japanese Side the Acura NSX has prestige as do Lexus's.
"Hate to say it, but I hope not. Only reason is if Toyota, Honda and Nissan keep on increasing their share of the US, the Big 3 will no longer be GM, Ford and Chrysler. I just don't see how having import companies dominate our automobile industry is good for the US."
"It's been mentioned before, but no one has really given a good answer."
Well lets see, import car makers bring jobs to the Us by building their plants here. Also, import companies have dealerships which gives jobs to salespeople and people that work in customer service. Most of the presidents of North American Operations of Japanese Car Companies are American.
Another thing is was it really good for the American enconomy when Chrysler merged with Mercedes?
I could really care less what brand of car I buy. I;m not buying GM just because I was born in the USA.
USA manufacturers need to get past the stale, tired old "dealer is an independent business" mantra and really try to improve their vehicle service. How about offering scholarships to mechanics, reimburse dealers fairly for labor, make more parts available to fix the sold cars that break, try harder to redress lemons and other problematic issues.
Otherwise, the vendors that are now driving the USA makers into the ground will be planting lilies over them.
I did diss GM a little bit in my last post but Chrsysler has always been the best Domestic and a half(since they are parteners with Mercedes)over the past 10 years. Ford is getting better but I just don't care for GM. I know they are making improvements with their Caddy line and their SUV's have always been bestsellers but Its just something about a GM car that turns me off. I like the Equinox but the interior looks cheap from the photo I saw in CR of the Pontiac Torrent which is basically a Equinox in different sheetmetal.
Back to that "domestic marketing departments suck" topic, here's what I thought of the Pontiac GTO rollout back when it happened. I personally like the car a lot, and gets rave reviews in Europe.
- Anyone who buys a car based on the "GTO" name will probably want different styling from the current GTO. So... bad idea to name it that.
- Everything that comes out of Australia is cool. Seriously. Pontiac should write in big letters that it's an Australian car, and there should've been a massive Australian ad push with it.
They still have a chance with other Australian product...
Snakeweasel, You don't think that driving a car makes a difference!!!!! I guess you don't care what kind of picture your television has either, or what kind of photo your camera takes, or whether or not your stereo has speakers or not, since you only look at it anyway. Are you kidding? DRIVING a car is mostly what a car is about! You are not buying a washing machine with a copy of Consumer Reports in your pocket. My goodness, that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard on a forum about cars. A lot of talk with NO credibility.
Read this carefully: DRIVING a car will tell you a lot about that car. It's power, it's handling, it's steering, it's braking, road noise, wind noise, visibility, ability to perform abrupt maneuvers, the whole FEELING and driving experience for goodness sake!!!!!
Snakeweasel, You don't think that test driving a car makes a difference!!!!! Or that it MIGHT make a difference? Of COURSE, it makes a difference! If you are going to talk about a car with ANY expertise, you MUST DRIVE IT!!!!!!!!!I guess you don't care what kind of picture your television has either since you don't watch it, or what kind of pictures your camera takes since you don't look at the photos, or whether or not your stereo has speakers or not, since you only "look" at your stereo. Are you kidding? DRIVING a car is mostly what a car is about! My goodness, that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard on a forum about cars. A lot of talk with NO credibility.
Read this carefully: DRIVING a car will tell you a lot about that car. It's power, it's handling, it's steering, it's braking, road noise, wind noise, visibility, ability to perform abrupt maneuvers, the whole FEELING and driving experience for goodness sake!!!!!
>DRIVING a car will tell you a lot about that car. It's power, it's handling, it's steering, it's braking, road noise, wind noise, visibility, ability to perform abrupt maneuvers, the whole FEELING and driving experience for goodness sake!!!!!
Agreed.
It is too bad many people judge based on what some car rag writes based on what will increase their circulation. I test drove a Honda in 03 and didn't like its (note no apostrophe) rough ride, steering lead, creaking when entering driveways. I chose a car with torque, gas mileage, and room that I also test drove. That was when Honda was the savior of the world with it's new bathtub design.
You don't think that driving a car makes a difference!!!!!
I never said that please don't put words in my mouth. All I said was that as far all other things the cars are just as refined. The quality of the materials and how well its put together and the design is part of the refinement and part of the overall ownership experience.
You are not buying a washing machine with a copy of Consumer Reports in your pocket.
Trust me if there was a copy of Consumer Reports in my pocket I would burn my pants. That being said if I was considering buying the car yes I would test drive it. But right now I am not any where near the purchase stage. Now the first thing I will do is do the touchy feelie thing and if I don't like that its not going to get the test drive plane and simple.
the whole FEELING and driving experience for goodness sake!!!!!
I live in a large metro area, part of the driving experience is sitting there doing nothing but waiting for traffic to move.
Come on now someone said that the cars were not as refined, I stated that as far as the design, material used, how its put together and how it feels when you sit in it (lets face it it can be the best driving car in the world but if the seats are uncomfortable its meaningless) is all part of the refinement of the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Comments
xrunner: I didn't say management wasn't responsible for the ills gm faces. Admit it, the UAW pattern bargaining is done for 1 reason: to squeeze as much out of the auto companies as possible. Each if the big 3 used to give in to this because they were competing against one another - al ltheir costs went up the same. No longer the case. I think Wagoner is trying to turn the company around as quickly as he can, whereas ihs 3-4 predecessors were all pathetic. Let's say that poor management and outrageous union demands have jointly contirbuted to gm's problem.
At one time they told you that anti-skid brakes would make the cars too expensive, remember? Then they told you that air bags were too expensive, remember? They've told you that traction control and vehicle stability is too expensive, and they will tell you that EVERYTHING is too expensive, and they are full of it, and that's why they don't sell cars the same way the Japanese do. Listen to the speech by the president of Honda recently. It is a philosophical difference almost. For years, the domestics would give you as little car as possible to squeeze out every dollar. The Japanese well-equip their vehicles as standard operating procedure, including safety and technology. People pay top dollar for a Lexus. Why? They will tell you why. They will say that they are reliable and have a lot of features for the money. That appeals to a lot of people, and the American car companies have shot themselves in the foot again and again and again. They are out of touch, otherwise they would not be in the predicament they are in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They will NOT listen to you and me. They think they have good marketing. They don't, obviously! They will continue down the road to their own death. To dig out now would be a major undertaking that is near impossible. The Pontiac Solstice will not save GM, but it is the right idea. . . a lot of car for the money. Do it in a sedan, and an SUV, and a minivan, and a pickup truck, and a sport coupe, and THEN maybe, just maybe there's a chance. But it's really almost too late. Excite the world with great products! Keep them fresh and don't let the style get old in the tooth.
All this talk and I'm afraid it is looking bad for the big 2. Next it's the Big 1. Remember, next model year the Chinese will most likely be sending cars over to our shores and selling them for a fraction of what we are used to! How can we compete with that? It looks bad, my friends, very bad for the American manufacturers. IDIOTS that committed corporate suicide!!!!!!!!!!!! And they lived to kill themselves AGAIN!!!!!!! Hopeless, unless they LISTEN and LEARN . . . FAST, very FAST!!!
With 300Hp Lexus' and 270HP TL's and 280HP G35's, why look at a Zephyr?
Power isn't everything, but who wants the defining characteristic in a test drive to be "It's not as strong/smooth/fun as the...."
Lincoln is done!
People forget that Toyota and Honda took 30 years to build, or rebuild, theri reputations with Civics and Corollas. They started at the foundation of their lineup, and built it up from there. A slow, but unbeatable strategy.
Does the Big 3 have anything approaching a Corolla or Civic? In economy, in refinement, in value?
Lincoln COULD'VE started rebuilding their image with the Zephyr, but where is this car going? they COULD'VE waited until the Johnny-come-lately 3.5 V6 got here.
Neither the Fusion or Zephyr has enough power or value to compete in their class. The Fusion is slightly better than adequate, and the Accord will be new in 2008, Camry in 3 months!
The Zephyr can't even dream of comparing itself to Tl's and G35's, so why bring it out?
Find a starting point, and build a foundation for your marque. We build great trucks. Or Sports cars. Or something.
Be a leader in something! Look at the best in a class, and shoot well over their head. Aim to be not just better now, but better when they redesign!
DrFill
You are so right. I had a similar problem with my Ford Expedition. The brake pads were making too much dust, and Ford released a new brake pad which fixed the problem. They would not replace my front brakes because the car had more then 12K. It was still under warrantee but more then 12K. Well they only released the pads after I had 12k. Arguing with the dealer did not help. So now my new car is Honda Odyssey. Who knows if they treated me better maybe I would buy a Freestyle. But that left a bad taste in my mouth, and I have owned Ford all of my life.
Tagman, you are exactly correct. Where is the aggressiveness to continuously improve? When we have seen it from the big 3, it is because their backs are against the wall, not because it is in their cultures.
Take Apple Computer. They had a huge hit in the ipod mini. And this last summer they KILLED IT, in the peak of its popularity. They brought out the iPod nano, even sleeker and better! This is the kind of aggressive improvements the big 3 need to be taking, they need to be LEADERS, not FOLLOWERS.
Honda was a leader in variable valve timing. Toyota is a leader in hybrid technology.
What is GM a leader in? Engines? Style? Reliability? How about big, heavy, gas guzzling trucks with 40 year old pushrod engines?
When she tells me how she loves her Accord and how reliable it is, and how her next car will only be a Honda or Acura, I ask her why she wouldn't consider a Ford. Her reply is that they are not reliable. I always then remind her of the exemplary history of my truck and her response is something to the effect of "yeah, but... well, Fords just... are not good." The idea that Fords aren't good is set in her mind and nothing is going to change it (even though it is fun to try!)
I've had both foreign and domestic cars and they all seemed to be about the same, reliability wise, with the Ranger being the only one that really stands out as head and shoulders above them all.
Unfortunately the thing is they sell the phones at a major loss and make it up on the service plans, its not as cheap as you would think.
And navigation is so easy now, it will be offered as a service on your cell phone any day now!
Most likely not, at least not GPS. It will most likely use the cellular signal to triangulate your position. Anyway I have a cheaper navigation system, its called a map. I can read one and trust it more than a nav system.
People pay top dollar for a Lexus. Why?
Not for what you say, they buy a Lexus for the name. Its called snob appeal. Pay close attention to their ads, they market the Lexus name.
Remember, next model year the Chinese will most likely be sending cars over to our shores and selling them for a fraction of what we are used to!
One word response: YUGO
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My Zephyr is sitting there crying
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My point exactly, my sister thinks her Toyota is flawless even though you can set your watch by it going back to the shop.
I've had both foreign and domestic cars and they all seemed to be about the same, reliability wise,
I agree, the best car I ever had was a Chevy Corsica with a 4 banger in it. That car got a ton of miles (well over 300k) with only routine maintenance plus a gasket replacement.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I am willing to be corrected since it was 20 yrs ago but in the period you mentioned ( '80's ) a similar situation as now was occuring. There was a significant threat from Japanese makers and the unions. Two things occured to settle things down.
If I remember correctly from being a supplier to the auto makers, GM was excoriated for avoiding a strike by the UAW by agreeing to a new job security provision in their contract in exchange for cost reductions/closures. What was being said at the time was that GM was just delaying the inevitable. Ford and Chrysler had to acquiece since the UAW came to agreement with GM as the 'target' company.
At roughly the same time an agreement was made with the Japanese in lieu of tariffs and quotas that the 'Big 3' from Japan would not import/build Big Trucks/SUV's except for Toyota which was already here with the Land Cruiser ( big for that time ). This essentially left the entire Truck/SUV market open to the US makers for 20 years. That unofficial gentlemens agreement expired in 2003 or 04. Hence the Titan/Armada and now the Ridgeline. The 20 years was supposed to buy the US makers time to make money in the more profitable truck segment. The Japanese were allowed to dominate the 'small' auto sector... low margin, who cares.
Fast forward 20 yrs ... the Asians ( incl Hyundai )have found a way to make money from small and medium vehicles and the Big 2 + C have painted themselves into a corner with monsters that may not fit these volatile times.
If the economies of China and India continue to boom and they begin to suck up all the oil on the planet due to their sheer size and growth rate $2/gal gas is likely to be the bottom and $4/gal is the more likely level. Given this scenario trucks and SUV's powered with current technology are likely to be specialty vehicles again for work-related projects as opposed luxo-barges for moving half the soccer team.
Now be creative and bring alternate-fuel-powered trucks etc to the market and the Big 2 + C can maintain their market position in these big rigs. At the same time 'buy' back the American auto consumer who wants an appliance vehicle. Match Hyundai's price and vehicles and warranties.
OTOH allow Toyota and Nissan to suddenly spring 30 mpg diesel and or hybrid/diesel trucks on the market and try to force feed a 4c auto market with old tech V6's .. well then .. 'Will the last person out of Detroit please turn off the lights?'
As for those who seem to think the hybrid game is over with Toyota being the runaway winner, just remember that Chrysler invented and owned the minivan market for at least a decade but now no one considers their vans the benchmarks. Toyota got the early lead, but they are going to be facing intense competition for hybrid customers within the next two years or so. GM and Ford have a number of hybrid cars and SUVs on the way that are going cut right into Toyotas dominance of the market. another thing, import lovers need to stop acting like Honda has a huge hybrid precense. They do not and they have not committed to developing any hybrids beyond the Accord and Civic. GM has announced at least four hyrbrid products to debut in 2006 and 2007.
I won't even talk about my '00 Suburban with only 58k miles. It has cost me nearly $3k in repairs this year alone. The repair costs don't bother me nearly as much as the things I can't fix. Embarrasingly cheap interior parts and design, rattles, numb steering and brakes, horrible panel gaps. Even if it was 100% reliable, it's still a POS based on the intangibles which the majority of Ford & GM vehicles lack. The only reason I keep it is for its utility.
If your main requirement is reliability, then a domestics will serve you well. But if you value refinement, look elsewhere.
see previous post. This was intentional and negotiated not the result of wonderful innovation.
The Tacoma/Frontier vs the Colorado/Ranger/Dakota. That's a hard case for you to make. Everyone gives the edge to the F/T combo; c.f Edmunds comparo.
What if in 15 mo's no Big 2+C truck was the equal of the '08 ICE Tundra? and turbo-diesel Tundra? and hybrid-diesel Tundra?
Well HP doesn't mean a whole lot in SUVs. Look at the torque figures. You can get more torque in a 4runner or Pathfinder than you can get in a Trailblazer.
Nissan's 5.6 offers more torque at a lower rpm than any engine you can get in a mainstream 1/2 ton truck or SUV. It even has more torque at a lower rpm than GMs 6.0L vortec. I've driven an Armada it will absolutely smoke my Suburban in any situation. It drives much nicer too. I just wish Nissan didn't go cheap on the interior or I'd own one. I know they've had some reliability problems, but it certainly couldn't be any worse than my Suburban.
If I had only one car, I sure as heck wouldn't have anything as plebian and ordinary as any Toyota. I'd have the ultimate Cadillac customized to my exact specifications.
As for a regular car, I couldn't go wrong with a Buick. They are extremely durable and long-lasting. My first car, a 1968 Buick, took me through high school and college, and my brother through college and into the first several years of his marriage. He still has my old 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue with over 235K+ miles on it.
When I first graduated from college, I bought a new 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic on which I put 62,000 miles in two years without a hiccup. My 1989 Cadillac Brougham has 156K on it. Most of those miles were accumulated during the early part of the car's life when I had a 24-mile one-way commute. My girlfriend has a 2005 Buick LaCrosse she uses for a 15-mile one way commute each day.
Oh I don't know, recently I went car looking at a few dealerships and I will say looking at the top of the line Accord and the top of the line Milan they were equal in refinement. Now I will admit that I didn't test drive either one and my opinion might change with a test drive. But my initial opinion from sitting in them and doing all the touching and feeling is that its 6 of one half dozen of the other.
Now I also checked out the Civic too and thought that the inside left much to be desired.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If the new American makes are better, buy'em! Buy two, they are all on sale! You can't re-write history though in saying that Japan cars were not better over the past couple of decades, or more, and it was all just a myth. The early Japan makes had poor steel, so rust and safety may be an issue. They were more fun to drive, more reliable, and got great gas mileage. That said, something like a Mustang GT would be fun to own, and has an improving record on up to 2004.
Loren
Actually they haven't made them for many years and I still keep seeing them on the road. They had to have been good cars.
FWIW there are plenty of people that don't trust CR to tell them what time it is. In the past they have proven a bias against American cars.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
What you wrote about refinement sounds odd but then you admit you never drove the cars, thus totally negating your initial position. If you've not driven a car then you can't claim it's refined or not. There's more to refinement than panel gaps and plastic quality.
Now I also checked out the Civic too and thought that the inside left much to be desired.
Again, drive it. Drive a Civic and then go drive a cobalt (I've had the misfortune driving it as a rental) and a Forcus (rental) and Neon (rental). There's no comparison. The civic/corolla/mazda3 are leaps and bounds more refined...their engines are smoother, handling sharper and all mechanical/electrical bits feel like quality.
As for the Milan, I admit I've not driven one yet and thus can't comment on its refinement. If it's like the Mazda6, it's a decent car but honestly, the Mazda6 may be a sharper handler than an Accord but the Accord oozes luxury and refinement in ways no Mazda ever has (and I'm a big, big mazda fan).
I have a friend who is driving a 20 year old mopar turbo sedan. By your definition of quality or goodness because people see this car on the road they should assume it's a quality auotmobile. In actuality my friend's grandmother, who lives in the desert, bought it new and barely drove it. When my friend was given the car a few years ago the vehicle had 27k miles on it. We're talking about 1200-1300 miles a year! Her grandmother's driving style and the environment (garaged. dry weather) preserved the car long, long beyond its realistic use-by-date.
So can you say that of the 200-300k corsicas made between x-y years that more than 1% are still operational? That all these cars were used normally (12-15k miles a year)?
How? I got to open and close the doors, see the interior, sit in the seats, see and feel the positions of the controls and play with them for a bit, see and feel the materials. Are you saying that all of that has NOTHING to do with refinement of a car? It seems that you are looking for something just to say "you don't know what you are talking about".
Again, drive it. Drive a Civic and then go drive a cobalt (I've had the misfortune driving it as a rental) and a Forcus (rental) and Neon (rental). There's no comparison.
Drive a Civic? Sorry won't happen unless they allow me to drive it like that guy in the movie Gator. I sat in that car with the seat all the way down and reclined as far back as I dared for driving and my head was still touching the roof.
As for the Focus, I had rented one for a week in Maui and I really like the car. I really enjoyed it on all those winding roads (if you know the road to Hana you know that straight shots are rare). It even did well on the roads we were not supposed to go on. While I will admit that the interior was low grade it did handle well.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
OK lets look at the logic I used. If the car was not reliable and no one wants one then not many would be on the road as 1.) no one would be driving what they don't want and 2.) they would have broken down beyond repair. Hence if after being out of production for 7 or 8 years if there are a enough cars left out there to be seen on a regular basis then the car must have been built well enough to last at least those 7-8 years.
No not faulty logic unless quality cars fall off the face of the earth after 5 yeras.
I have a friend who is driving a 20 year old mopar turbo sedan. By your definition of quality or goodness because people see this car on the road they should assume it's a quality auotmobile.
No not by my definition, but by you twisting what I say. Of course one car making it a long time doesn't mean that all of that make are like that. But I didn't say I saw one on the road and claim that it must have been a well made car. I said I see them on the road. Unless some guy likes to paint his 10 year old car every week I am seeing more than one car.
I have seen enough different Corsicas on the road to make the comment that they must have been made well. You twisting what I say and claiming my logic is bad doesn't change that fact.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My experience with GM cars was much different then yours. I had only two GM cars in my life, a 1974 Firebird and 1988 Olds Cutlass Calais. The Firebird was actually an OK car. The Cutlass was the worst car that I have ever owned. That car was so horrid that I don't think that I ran right in the entire 100K miles that I owned. My fingers would get tired if I had to type every thing that went wrong with that car. I got rid of that car in 1995, and I still have bad memories about it.
Maybe that is what is wrong with GM. This company managed to build products so bad and so hated by consumers that they still talk about it 10 years latter. The only car that I owned that came close to then number of problems was a 1997 BMW 740. That car was also in and out of dealer. At least the BMW was nice to drive when it worked well. The Olds never worked well period.
The interior tells you very little...it's in the drive. The Lexus GS has a nice interior but that means nothing when the car handles like a pig that's been gorging. When I think of refinement I'm thinking of roadfeel,wind/tire sound, handling, clutch pickup, engine response, exhaust note, AC response/sound.
As for the Focus, I had rented one for a week in Maui and I really like the car. I really enjoyed it on all those winding roads (if you know the road to Hana you know that straight shots are rare). It even did well on the roads we were not supposed to go on. While I will admit that the interior was low grade it did handle well.
I found the engine loud and thrashy. The manuals I've driven were notchy. AC severely sapped what little power the car has. With an automatic driving the car was a nightmare. All things considered, I'm baffled as to how mopar/gm/ford sell any small, midsize or luxury cars as they're always a step down from the european/korean/japanese competition.
I think your right on that, my moms last car was a chevy that she put less than 50K miles on in 10 years. that car treated her well and was driving pretty good when we sold it.
I also had a 74 Firebird that was a total piece of junk. More likely because its former owner beat the crap out of it, but it only cost me a hundred or so so it was worth it. The trans on it was going out so I drove it for a few months until the trans went out completely. For a while I was driving it without a second gear (it was a stick).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's patently false. The reliability of a car has very little to do with if a manufacturer can move it. VW sells 100k Jettas a year...reliability be damned, the cars sell on build feel, look and the drive.
GM sold the Cavalier and its twins for years and year...not good cars and they sold ungoldy numbers of them. Dodge moved hundreds of thousands of neons. Mitsubishi sells eclipses and they've never been good cars - 20 years the nameplate has been around and for 20 years they've been horrible cars. Look at the Mustang...millions of cars and always lousy reliability/build quality.
Sales numbers and reliability are not as intimately familiar as many would have you believe. There's so much more to sales than reliability or build quality.
1.) no one would be driving what they don't want
Again, that's not true. I know many people and have known many who drove cars they hated. They see a Cavalier selling for 5k less than a comparable Civic and they snatch it up. They buy a mustang and discover it's a rolling bucket of bolts within a year but they're upside down and can't get out. It's really not uncommon at all to talk with people who are in cars they dislike.
and 2.) they would have broken down beyond repair.
Again, not always true. Wow, you generalize quite a bit.
Hence if after being out of production for 7 or 8 years if there are a enough cars left out there to be seen on a regular basis then the car must have been built well enough to last at least those 7-8 years.
too many factors to make the jump. The only way to know if the car is reliable:
1. Find the total number sold.
2. Compare that number to total number declared operational nationally.
3. Compare your county's total number of declared operational to the national average.
4. Of the all cars sold in that model determine the mileage at various intervals 1, 2, 3, 4 years, etc.
5. Gather data on the regional use of the car - was it sold in Arizona originally and sat there for 10 years before following a grandson to college on the east coast? That makes a difference. Year 1 - registered in which state/environment, Year 2, etc.
6. Determine oil changes/services performed on the cars running today.
When it's all said and done my money is on two things:
1. You're looking for the car and thus it seems common
2. Your area supports a much large original base of sales and thus has a greater chance of having more of that model per capita than say southern california where that car is rare and mostly seen only in poor neighborhoods.
No not faulty logic unless quality cars fall off the face of the earth after 5 yeras.
Actually, JD power tracks initial quality and longterm reliability expressly because the quality of cars does deteriorate rapidly after year 5.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There may be more to it; maybe the Matrix is more easily serviceable because a Toyota mechanic will have a lot of Corolla parts that work for the Vibe. I'm kinda reaching there. Oh, and there's a Vibe GT version which might have more problems and bring down the Vibe's reliability scores. There isn't an equivalent Matrix.
As for Buick/BMW... Buick's always high up on reliability surveys. People know (or believe) that BMWs are expensive to own, but the average joe thinks it's worth it. You get free maintenance for a while anyway, while GM has pretty poor warranties.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yep, you're reaching .....
03 2wd Vibes are doing all the $$ at the auctions and seeing over the $10 figure .. about the the same $$ as the Matrix .. but your heading in the right direction, put a popular name on anything and you'll see "popular" money ..
Darren Clarke has mentioned his new Taylor R7 Driver about 10 times in the Target Open in the last 3 days .. I bet they sell 5,000 in the next 15 days ... hey, it's popular now ..l.o.l....
Terry.
Because the genius' at GM discount the hell out of it while there are no rebates and very nominal discounts on the Matrix. Go figure? Why does one have a 3/36K Powertrain warranty and the other 5/60K PT warranty?
Corporate policy is putting the GM buyer at a continual disadvantage.
The bigger rear window that the Matrix has would lead me to buy one of those instead.
I don't see the Mazda Pick-up rated as a best pick. What issue of Cr are your reading?
"Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but under CR's recommended picks, doesn't it only list the Matrix and not the Vibe?"
No, both the Vibe and Matrix are both reccomneded by CR.
"Again, they are the same car. I think this proves that people's perceptions of Japanese makes accounts for a lot more than many people realize."
This maybe a lttle harsh but I don;t think you are reading CR clearly.
"I mean, most people still think the Germans are great cars (which they are -- if you are talking driving dynamics) but they are reported to have more problems on average than American cars, according to JD Power. Would the average Joe think that a Buick was more reliable than a BMW?"
I'll agree with you on your point on your point that American Cars are no less more reliable than German Cars. Its just that German Cars have the prestige factor most American Cars and nearly all of Japanese Cars don't have. On the American side Caddy has some prestige and some Domesic Big 3 models have prestige like the Corvette and Mustang. On the Japanese Side the Acura NSX has prestige as do Lexus's.
"It's been mentioned before, but no one has really given a good answer."
Well lets see, import car makers bring jobs to the Us by building their plants here. Also, import companies have dealerships which gives jobs to salespeople and people that work in customer service. Most of the presidents of North American Operations of Japanese Car Companies are American.
Another thing is was it really good for the American enconomy when Chrysler merged with Mercedes?
I could really care less what brand of car I buy. I;m not buying GM just because I was born in the USA.
How about offering scholarships to mechanics, reimburse dealers fairly for labor, make more parts available to fix the sold cars that break, try harder to redress lemons and other problematic issues.
Otherwise, the vendors that are now driving the USA makers into the ground will be planting lilies over them.
- Anyone who buys a car based on the "GTO" name will probably want different styling from the current GTO. So... bad idea to name it that.
- Everything that comes out of Australia is cool. Seriously. Pontiac should write in big letters that it's an Australian car, and there should've been a massive Australian ad push with it.
They still have a chance with other Australian product...
You don't think that driving a car makes a difference!!!!! I guess you don't care what kind of picture your television has either, or what kind of photo your camera takes, or whether or not your stereo has speakers or not, since you only look at it anyway. Are you kidding? DRIVING a car is mostly what a car is about! You are not buying a washing machine with a copy of Consumer Reports in your pocket. My goodness, that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard on a forum about cars. A lot of talk with NO credibility.
Read this carefully: DRIVING a car will tell you a lot about that car. It's power, it's handling, it's steering, it's braking, road noise, wind noise, visibility, ability to perform abrupt maneuvers, the whole FEELING and driving experience for goodness sake!!!!!
You don't think that test driving a car makes a difference!!!!! Or that it MIGHT make a difference? Of COURSE, it makes a difference! If you are going to talk about a car with ANY expertise, you MUST DRIVE IT!!!!!!!!!I guess you don't care what kind of picture your television has either since you don't watch it, or what kind of pictures your camera takes since you don't look at the photos, or whether or not your stereo has speakers or not, since you only "look" at your stereo. Are you kidding? DRIVING a car is mostly what a car is about! My goodness, that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard on a forum about cars. A lot of talk with NO credibility.
Read this carefully: DRIVING a car will tell you a lot about that car. It's power, it's handling, it's steering, it's braking, road noise, wind noise, visibility, ability to perform abrupt maneuvers, the whole FEELING and driving experience for goodness sake!!!!!
Agreed.
It is too bad many people judge based on what some car rag writes based on what will increase their circulation. I test drove a Honda in 03 and didn't like its (note no apostrophe) rough ride, steering lead, creaking when entering driveways. I chose a car with torque, gas mileage, and room that I also test drove. That was when Honda was the savior of the world with it's new bathtub design.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I never said that please don't put words in my mouth. All I said was that as far all other things the cars are just as refined. The quality of the materials and how well its put together and the design is part of the refinement and part of the overall ownership experience.
You are not buying a washing machine with a copy of Consumer Reports in your pocket.
Trust me if there was a copy of Consumer Reports in my pocket I would burn my pants. That being said if I was considering buying the car yes I would test drive it. But right now I am not any where near the purchase stage. Now the first thing I will do is do the touchy feelie thing and if I don't like that its not going to get the test drive plane and simple.
the whole FEELING and driving experience for goodness sake!!!!!
I live in a large metro area, part of the driving experience is sitting there doing nothing but waiting for traffic to move.
Come on now someone said that the cars were not as refined, I stated that as far as the design, material used, how its put together and how it feels when you sit in it (lets face it it can be the best driving car in the world but if the seats are uncomfortable its meaningless) is all part of the refinement of the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D