The American Manufacturers are about a decade behind on style and engeeniring. The talent pool is basically dry, and they have to rely on old designs and themes from the sixtys to fool themselves. I and most people "grew" out of the muscle car era and are pushing retirement. History is just that. Anything that was a hit then, they managed to destroy or erase from history, ie: camaro, GTO, firebird, malibu, impala, cougar ect, ect. There is no soul left in the American design studio. Not to mention the missed opportunities, case in point; the Miata is cleaning up the market for over a decade and the yanks are in a coma. Finally, someone decided to build the Solstice, always to little to late. I say, fire them all and start again.
gmfans post is the most hilarious post ever. Somebody get this guy in to a saturday night live skit. "I drink Bud over Heineken at parties and laugh knowing I'm in a higher tax bracket. I drive a trailblazer cause I wouldn't be caught dead in a buick. {paraphrased of course} There is no quality gap anymore". I almost divorced my wife when she bought a Lexus. Only snobs drive those". Someone pick me up off the floor and get me some oxygen. Lay me down in the backseat of GMfans trailblazer and drop me off in the emergency room. Stop off on the way and pick up his crack pipe and give it back to him.....
Darn straight! If there was such a thing as a U.S. manufactured DVD player, iPod, or stereo, (well there are few very high-end systems) I would most certainly buy it. It really upsets me when I see another once-repectable American name on a foreign-made product. Take Bostonian shoes for one.
I loved Bostonian shoes and have the same pairs for over ten years. I can have them repaired over and over and over again at the shoemaker until the uppers fall apart. I wanted to buy a pair to replace one of my oldest pair which is over 15 years old. Guess what? They're now made in India and China - and it shows! I guess the guys working in the factory in West Virginia were asking for too much. Gee, I didn't know West Virginia had such a high standard of living! The stitching is sloppy and glue marks are all over the uppers. The soles feel like cardboard! Do they cost any less? NOOOOOOO!!! Will I be able to keep them in repair for ten years or more? I doubt it. I guess I'd have to simply throw them away. Will I buy Bostonian shoes anymore? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
After mostly Fords, and wife owning Toyotas, we consolidated our cars and now own a Highlander Hybrid. Cost above routine maintenance on her Toyotas: virtually nothing. Cost above routine maintenance for various Fords: thousands a year once warranty was over, and work under warranty too - even purchased an extended warranty to have transmission replaced at about 58K rather than paying full cost - the trans had already been extensively serviced at 34K. Oh yes, dad has been driving Chrysler minivans for years and it seems he's always needed work beyond routine maintenance, his current one - less than a year old - needs front end work, and dad's a good, careful driver (but not really good on choosing cars, he has owned an AMC Matador wagon, an AMC Pacer, and a Renault Alliance - what can I say, he liked the dealer). Being a buy domestic person, I would have considered something other than the Highlander, but there is nothing in its class domestically to compare, and after Consumer Reports reported on the Highlander Hybrid, they found it clearly better than any vehicle in the class, even without being a hybrid).
The Highlander experience - 4K and _NO_ problems, mileage in the acceptable/expected range - and 40% better than the minivan it replaced - has so far validated our choice. It's a great vehicle, cost a lot but that's in part a reward to Toyota for their innovation. Reliability, innovation, value over the life of the vehicle, the imports just tend to do better. Don't think it's a reflection on the domestic auto worker either - my brother owns a Chevy Nova built in California with over 200K of reliable miles, but that's a Corolla under the skin. Problem is management/shareholders are fixated on maximizing profit TODAY, home runs are what count for your standard vehicle, and it's cheaper to crank out similar stuff rather than innovate.
Have to agree with the rentals assessment, used to drive a lot of rentals and most all were junk, low miles yet clearly not doing well, uncomfortable, problemmatic, poorly designed. An uninspired rental experience doesn't lead to a visit for a test drive. Did have a Honda Civic rental once, bought one based on that experience to replace a Plymouth Horizon that was wrecked. Civic is the only rental I had that sold me on the car as being worth buying.
Can the domestics compete with the imports? They can, but not with the need to have a big winner mentality I think drives them above innovation, customer service and satisfaction, and good long term return on investment. - John
As a younger driver, I'm looking for comfort, performance, and especially build quality, safety and reliability in a vehicle. The Germans and Japanese can easily trump the Americans in all of these categories (though there have been some questionable issues with recent European reliability). The foreign automakers simply have higher standards of construction. If I put my Honda Pilot next to say a Trailblazer, by just touching the interior components and seeing how the doors close, one can tell its a better made car even if it was built in Canada and not Japan.
GM fianlly builds a beauty like the Solstice, but the rest of it are still the same old crap.
Ford builds a kickass mustang, but instead of engineering a new kickass engine to go with it they just shove a truck engine in it. The v6 Mustang has 210 horses. The HYUNDAI SONATA v6 has 235 HP, come on now~ The GT, however, is pretty kickass.
Chrysler is dragging MB down to the grave with them.
In this day and age, I think Americans need to build fuel efficient light cars, not no huge V8s that guzzel gas. GM/FORD/CHRYSLER need to invest in engine designs. Instead of V8s in a heavy car, how about a stronger V6/V4 in a light car. For example, instead of GTO/SRT8, WRX/EVO.
^ I'd agree and quietly add the Freestyle to that list. Give it a proper engine and it would be a bigger success. As it is right now, (motor aside) it makes the Caddy SRX look like a ripoff $$$-wise. Better third row seat room, way easier step in (no dirty pant leg), better design, textures, and style in the interior for 10 grand less cake.
I never would have thought a Ford could compete with a Caddy, but when you match up an SRX V6 vs a Freestyle Limited, the similarities are astonishing (Not in favor of the Caddy).
I don't know, my wife and her business partner have had a few Benzes. They were pretty good cars with some really high miles before they were traded.
- 2000 E430 4-matic with 125k that needed nothing more than tires, brakes and a few lightbulbs. - 2002 C230K coupe with 100k+ that needed all of the above plus a sway bar in the front and a new hanger for the rear hatch cover - 2005 CLS with something like 35k on it that hasn't had anything go wrong yet.
The last two were during the merger...
I do know there are some MB horror stories out there, but from my personal experience, they still build one hell of a car. I am not too leery of the MB/Chrysler relationship as I was when the whole thing went down.
...for a weekend back in August. Andre and grbeck saw it when we went to Macungie. It's a great little car! It had nearly all the features of my Seville STS and was so well-built it felt as if it was machined from a solid billet of steel! It's worlds more distinctive than the Opel-based Catera that looked like a Lumina and several universes away from that God-awful Cimmaron! I guess the third time's the charm!
Yeah I got the CTS-V at a rock bottom (and I do mean rock bottom) price, was going to get the V-6 but the price on the V-8 was just to good. As for the 3 series, cannot fit in it. Can't say anything good or bad about them as I have been shying away from the Peoples Car for the last couple of decades.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I do have "two" exceptions to my poor assessment of American cars. Cadillac and Corvette. Higher enthuses on the C6 which is a "world class" sports car.
Now why is it that GM always get's the corvette right, but messes up everything else...?(except cadillac...) I am a sports car fanatic. If I had a lot of money...I would buy a C6 Corvette Z06...but like the majority of us..I can't afford one and have to choose one or two family cars. I have owned a 93 Pontiac Trans AM, and a 99 Chevy Camaro..in my teen years..305 HP for about $23,000 that was great!!GM knows all about racing..but how about the rest of its line? We are living in an information based society that has access to much more info than even in the last 10 years or so (internet). We are now able to compare cars within seconds and make a more informed decision when it comes to purchasing cars. Most companies are aware of this and are careful to match or surpass their competition's specs.
"We are now able to compare cars within seconds and make a more informed decision when it comes to purchasing cars."
You hit the nail on the head. GM & Ford are from the "old" school and that's why they can't compete in today's marketplace. Good question why the Vet comes out right, I guess when GM management figures that one out, they will be on the road to recovery.
It seems to me that GM and Ford make fine cars until you compare them to the competition. They just do not compete. They are OK on their own, but most of the others are much better. With the cost of ownership today, people really really want the very best for their money. Most of the time that will not be a GM or Ford. I recently purchased my second Honda, a 2006 Odyssey. The first was a 1976 Civic. When purchasing the Odyssey, the salesman told me that Honda intends that every vehicle it sells is the best in the world. I am not saying that they achieve that, but I certainly do not believe that GM and Ford have that same philosophy. I think that their philosophy is "good enough or maybe not quite".
You own or drive a 'Vette and a Cobalt, they might as well be from 2 different companies. The care taken to build a 'Vette is not expended on Cobalts or Malibus, in design or quality.
You sit in a Sequioa and a Corolla, you don't feel alienated sitting in a Corolla. You can tell they cared deeply about designing the car, and the quality of the materials. Same with an Odyssey and a Civic.
Since we are on this tangent, the US cars that are worth buying to me are 'Vette, 300C, Saturn Sky/Solstice, and I like the SRX (for around $40k).
CTS interior is second rate, and poorly designed for me.
Misconception: By shutting down so much of the industrial base of this country, we are making choices that may well have very bad consequences: for example, i mentioned the multiplier effect: every job at GM supports 6-7 other jobs
What is being proposed to be shutdown is already shut down. If a plant has a 3 shift capacity and only one shift is working then 2/3 of that plant is not supporting anything. Does that plant need to stay where it is or can it be moved to another plant? I dont think anyone at GM or Ford is proposing to close plants with vibrant product lines, Cadillac or Ford Truck plants for example. What is being proposed are facilities that are already underutilized or are de facto shutdown from lack of demand.
It may be too that certain brands disappear in favor of increasing demand for 'core' brands. It's a realignment of assets. Certain locales may suffer at the benefit of other locales. Hopefully it's a zero sum game.
As much as I hate to admit it I will never buy an American made car ever! They all suck. They have zero style, zero reliability and the worst resale value imaginable. Not to mention Japan wins hands down on fuel economy.
I have friends who drive only American and all their cars suck.
Ford Focus = Junk Ford Explorer= Junk Cadillac Escalade = A chevy blazer with leather and a cadillac symbol = junk Chevy Cobalt = Junk Ford Escort= Junk Dodge= All dodges have crappy trannies and don't hold their value. GM= Junk. Pontiac Aztec = Horrible looking piece of junk. Oldsmobiles= Old peoples brand of junk.
Name an American made car or truck and I will name you a Japanese vehicle that wins hands down in all categories.
Accord Civic Camry Corolla Maxima Altima Tundra Titan Landcruiser Armada Pathfinder Pilot 4runner
They are all quality. You wont find a lemon in any of those models compared to some piece of junk malibu or taurus.
BTW-When people say a stock japanese car it's false.
Almost all Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans come fully loaded.
I bought a 2006 Maxima and last year got my wife a 2005 Camry. They were fully loaded with the base models.
The only thing they didn't have was the navigation system and the heated outside mirrors.
Cruise= standard Power Windows= standard ABS= Standard on Camry Intermittent= Standard.
Drive a Camry, Accord, or Maxima and you will never want to jump in an American made car again. Period.
Excellent post. I guess that's the case with Florsheim shoes also? I have two pair that are lasting forever if I can find cobblers to keep them rebuilt when they need it.
I dont understand why folks just dont get it... Reliability is no longer the issue really... Its how satisfied you are with the vehicle. To this end, refinement and creature comforts come into the picture. Toyota gets it (just see how low NVH levels are - you can hardly hear any noise).. The way the doors close, soft materials, tight gaps .. I can go on. Ford Fusion may run fine for a long time but you can tell that a camry feels slightly luxurious and better thought out (rear seat with good shoulder room and legroom etc). Heck even the trunk is light and closes with a nice light thunk. Things like how light the steering is and how good the suspension soaks up the bumps all count for average buyer who is not going to fling his car at high speeds in a corner.
I guess that makes everything from Auburn Hills not of 'American' origin either. Your logic fails to account for this. Does that mean that there is just two 'American' companies?
If all 6 major manufacturers buy various parts and subassemblies from Magna are only some of these American?
Does the 80+% of the steel and aluminum supplied from domestic mills to transplants make those auto makers now less 'foreign'? USS is hardly an 'owned' supplier. More faulty logic.
Oh the 'ownership' you say is offshore... except for the banks and mutual funds here that hold the stocks and bonds of offshore publicly traded manufacturers ... for 401k funds here.
Too many holes in your logic about what is 'American'. It is a very small world now and very intertwined. That's business. Life goes on.
It bothers me tremendously to read the news about all of the tens of thousands of American car assembly jobs that will be lost in the next few years. I gain no pleasure to reveal that I drive a Honda Accord and as a Honda customer I am part of the cause of this downward spiral that GM and Ford are trapped in. I do not mean to bash GM when I say that my '97 Pontiac was not a good product, it is simply a statement of a fact. Again, I do not rejoice in saying these things - but I have to get the best value for my money - and having to go back to the dealer on a hook countless times and problem after problem after problem does not give me value for my money. There was no question that my car was not just a lemon but a VERY BAD lemon; had they either given me another car or returned my money and told me "I'm sorry but we made a mistake when we built your car" then I would probably be driving a domestic today.
I work for a living and I am not a multi-millionaire so I HAVE to get value for my money. Honda does not represent mankind's salvation similar to the second coming of Christ - this is not what I am saying - what I am saying is that this particular Accord that I am driving is giving me good value for my money. Maybe all of the other Accords are crap - I do not know because I have not driven them all - I just know that as long as I continue to be treated right by Honda then I have no reason to drive anything else. It is entirely possible that some day I will get stuck with a Honda lemon and when that happens it will be interesting to see what, if anything, Honda will do for me under these circumstances.
The title of this forum is "What will it take for consumers to buy American brands?" The answer is very simple: this consumer needs a customer full satisfaction or your money back guarantee in writing at the time of purchase. I need this in writing because the American companies can not be trusted to do the right thing when things go horribly wrong for their customers.
littlez wrote.. Both. When the Honda and Toyota plants first came to America, there was a lot of scuttlebutt about the management teams being almost all japanese.
Uhhh that was 21 years ago!!! at least. I guess that by your logic .. when Ford was run by Jacques Nasser it was not an American company either. I thought it was.
You are digging massive logic traps for yourself all over the place.
First Auburn Hills is no longer an 'American' company and now for a period neither was Ford.
Maybe ... they are all international companies with stockholders and managers from all over the world. Some just do a better job than others.
...I just got as a rental. Nicely sized, ran well, good mileage. Yeah, it looked pretty boring, but it was by far one of the better rentals I've had lately for work. Much better than the sebrings, mitsubishis, even a camry (4 cyl) I've had. As far as what US companies need to do: make good quality fashionable cars and give them 7 yr/100k warranties.
I am sure most of us Americans have no problem buying American brands. It's just that they don't offer what we are looking for.
For me, all I want is an AWD sedan with a stick that's fun to drive. Unfortunately, when I was looking, I didn't see any GM/Ford/Chrysler that fit the bill.
If Chrysler 300 or a Dodge Charger came in AWD and a stick, I'd seriously consider it!
You are on the same page as me pal. I'd take the F-1 inspired paddle shifters.
My Dream Vehicle would be a 6-Speed Manuel Cadillac CTS-V with the 515 hp. LS-7 V-8, Interior/Exterior Qualtiy and design like a Lexus, Handling like a BMW, Audi Quattro AWD w/ 4 Wheel Steering (a.k.a. rear active steer) Voice Recognition System, That operates the audio, climate, seats, windows, mirrors, etc etc. AC, Heated, Massaging Seats, PWR. sunshades, Butt loads of safety and crash advoidance features, night vision, HUD, 15 Speaker DVD Surround Sound System which includes "two" 10's in the back, Radar and Laser detectors/jammers built in. XM-Nav traffic, Onstar, swivel headlamps, 5 yr. 100K warranty, all for $55K.
I may sound extreme, But the Acura RL does most of this for $49K.
Looks, power, room, prestige, dynamics, there are a lot of aspects to a car purchase, and at $50k it could be some of these, or all, to make a success.
I think the TL finally becoming a hit set the bar rather high for the RL, and the RL just hasn't cleared it, similar to how the TL used to struggle vs. the ES and others.
Standard AWD doesn't help either, if you don't live in the Snow Belt or the NorthEast. That can hurt a car's value with added weight and expense.
I'm glad you're the forum expert on business in the US. I think there may be a job for you at one of the japanese companies who moved to the US to sell their vehicles.
Here is a little more misinformation for you.
Have you ever seen the list of management at most of the japanese transplant factories and the engineers that many of them hire to design their vehicles or in many cases brought here from Japan?
It is difficult to find an American in the mix.
Hey, maybe the domestic companies should get wise and start stealing managers and engineers from the japanese companies. Maybe that will fix their problems.
When an American car maker makes a car that looks like a VW polo inside and out and is fun to drive, has Honda or Toyota reliability, gets 50+ mpg in the city, has ultra low emissions, has low operating, maintenance, and repair costs, holds its value, and is priced at less than $14K I will buy it.
I don't give a flip who makes it, but I am more inclined to support the manufacturer that at least makes baby steps towards less destructive options. I consider myself a citizen of the world first and of the USA second.
Ford, GM, and Chrysler have concentrated on making enormous ecological catastrophes. That alone is reason to avoid supporting them with a purchase. But, there are many other reasons, too.
I like a car that is flat out fun to drive, but pampers for not alot of change. AWD has more benefits, than negatives. Even in dry weather, it gives you added grip, and everywhere it rains, which equals grip. I live in the West Texas Panhandle, where we get a few big blizzards, and heavy drenching thunder boomers. AWD is a nice feature to have. Even if you lived in Florida, You could travel anywhere worry free, and not have to worry about renting a car. i.e. having family in Michigan and wanted to see em' during Christmas time. Load the RL full of suit cases, and drive off worry free about weather conditions.
Inclement weather such as snow, happens in more places than not at some point in the season. I see why the RL is a justifiable purchase for anyone. Edmonds ranked it #1 AWD car money can buy.
Not to mention you can get a good deal on a lease.
It bothers me tremendously to read the news about all of the tens of thousands of American car assembly jobs that will be lost in the next few years. I gain no pleasure to reveal that I drive a Honda Accord and as a Honda customer I am part of the cause of this downward spiral that GM and Ford are trapped in
Yeah.. this is exactly what fat execs at GM and Ford want you to think and feel guilty about. Laying off tens of thousands is like making a statement. Its like saying this is what you get for not buying ours. The fat hogs dont give a hoot as to what the average joe being laid off feels trying to get food on table. Bob Lutz is a millionaire before Wagoner hired him and collects millions to have a nice airplane collection. Why dont they lay him off.. people can do a better job than him for a mere fraction of what he gets paid. If this is not class warfare, I dont know what is... Class system has never been gone after any number of revolutions.. It still is there... I got nothing against white collar folks its the gazillionaires at the top who are the problem.
It really upsets me when I see another once-repectable American name on a foreign-made product. Take Bostonian shoes for one.
But how many people that buy Pontiac Vibes know that it is a Toyota design. Does not Vibe sell well and have good reviews? Maybe salvation for GM is to semi-secretly set up deal with Toyota to design and engineer all Pontiacs and Buicks. Most people who buy these will not know and word will get out how good these Pontiacs and Buicks are. It will be a win-win situation for GM and Toyota. Toyota will allow GM to kind of stay competitive and Toyota will avoid negative press in US.
We can sit here and compare American cars vs Japanies cars all day long and nothing will change. Japanies car companies will continue to get more and more market share. You know why? Because American car companies like Ford and GM are simply mediocre companies. For a very long time now neither Ford nor GM has represented what is good about America. They are not great American companies like Microsoft or GE or Proctor and Gamble or Intel or even Merc. They are not close to the level of Caterpillar. I don't see Komatsu taking over Caterpillar.
Toyota and Honda are some of the best Japanies companies period. They are better then Sony as far as company is concerned. Its not like people like Japanies cars all that much. Mitsubishi and Isuzu and Suzuki and Subaru other Japanies car companies are struggling all over the world.
What we have here is the competition between two very mediocre American companies like Ford and GM vs two great Japanies companies like Toyota and Honda. They just happed to compete in the same market. I will bet that if GM was as good a company as GE, they would not have any problems competing with Toyota.
Ford was never such a great company to start with. They always have their ups and downs. Ford was close to death many times before. Early 80's come to mind when they had lower market share then now. But Ford always manages to survive. They are not the best, but they are survivors.
GM simply got to fat, to happy and too lazy. GM used to be a great company but that time is well past. I would compare GM with ATT. In their prime they were world class companies that could compete with anybody. Now there is no more ATT and soon there will be no more GM. In 1980 nobody thought that ATT would disappear. Now there is no more ATT. Look the same thing will happed to Toyota in 50 years.
What would it take for consumers to buy American cars? Well the first thing it would take a bankruptcy of GM. GM in its current state cannot survive. New management must come in and change GM to operate at world standards. The way best companies in America operate.
I think a phrase from The Matrix applies to GM: "Welcome to the real world."
Well lets see I did sell steel to Ford, Chrysler and indirectly to GM for nearly 20 yrs. Was sole supplier for Mustang fenders ( Dearborn ), Crown Vic roofs ( Chi Hts ),;multiple exposed panels on the Gr Cherokee ( Toledo ) as well as all the heat shields on all Chrysler autos; sub assemblies for GM at the Balt Truck and Bus plant; and 50+% of the tire cord at Michelin. As Product Mgr/VP for what is now the 2nd largest, soon to be largest, steel company in the world I had a little inkling of who were in what places.
I am certain that the top manager at Georgetown or Marysville or Smyrna is Japanese. But I'm also certain that the majority of others are American.
BTW.. the Avalon was designed jointly in Newport Beach, CA and in Mich.
Auburn Hills? Chrysler is a German company. Ownership? It's the stockholders no matter where they are located.
Comments
Anything that was a hit then, they managed to destroy or erase from history, ie: camaro, GTO, firebird, malibu, impala, cougar ect, ect. There is no soul left in the American design studio.
Not to mention the missed opportunities, case in point; the Miata is cleaning up the market for over a decade and the yanks are in a coma. Finally, someone decided to build the Solstice, always to little to late.
I say, fire them all and start again.
Stop off on the way and pick up his crack pipe and give it back to him.....
I loved Bostonian shoes and have the same pairs for over ten years. I can have them repaired over and over and over again at the shoemaker until the uppers fall apart. I wanted to buy a pair to replace one of my oldest pair which is over 15 years old. Guess what? They're now made in India and China - and it shows! I guess the guys working in the factory in West Virginia were asking for too much. Gee, I didn't know West Virginia had such a high standard of living! The stitching is sloppy and glue marks are all over the uppers. The soles feel like cardboard! Do they cost any less? NOOOOOOO!!! Will I be able to keep them in repair for ten years or more? I doubt it. I guess I'd have to simply throw them away. Will I buy Bostonian shoes anymore? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
The Highlander experience - 4K and _NO_ problems, mileage in the acceptable/expected range - and 40% better than the minivan it replaced - has so far validated our choice. It's a great vehicle, cost a lot but that's in part a reward to Toyota for their innovation. Reliability, innovation, value over the life of the vehicle, the imports just tend to do better. Don't think it's a reflection on the domestic auto worker either - my brother owns a Chevy Nova built in California with over 200K of reliable miles, but that's a Corolla under the skin. Problem is management/shareholders are fixated on maximizing profit TODAY, home runs are what count for your standard vehicle, and it's cheaper to crank out similar stuff rather than innovate.
Have to agree with the rentals assessment, used to drive a lot of rentals and most all were junk, low miles yet clearly not doing well, uncomfortable, problemmatic, poorly designed. An uninspired rental experience doesn't lead to a visit for a test drive. Did have a Honda Civic rental once, bought one based on that experience to replace a Plymouth Horizon that was wrecked. Civic is the only rental I had that sold me on the car as being worth buying.
Can the domestics compete with the imports? They can, but not with the need to have a big winner mentality I think drives them above innovation, customer service and satisfaction, and good long term return on investment. - John
Last time was when I saw the 2005 Mustang GT and the 2006 Fusion!
I agree.
GM fianlly builds a beauty like the Solstice, but the rest of it are still the same old crap.
Ford builds a kickass mustang, but instead of engineering a new kickass engine to go with it they just shove a truck engine in it. The v6 Mustang has 210 horses. The HYUNDAI SONATA v6 has 235 HP, come on now~ The GT, however, is pretty kickass.
Chrysler is dragging MB down to the grave with them.
In this day and age, I think Americans need to build fuel efficient light cars, not no huge V8s that guzzel gas. GM/FORD/CHRYSLER need to invest in engine designs. Instead of V8s in a heavy car, how about a stronger V6/V4 in a light car. For example, instead of GTO/SRT8, WRX/EVO.
I never would have thought a Ford could compete with a Caddy, but when you match up an SRX V6 vs a Freestyle Limited, the similarities are astonishing (Not in favor of the Caddy).
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=DZ8yXRfM2Mp- - PB1NlGJR6jcy8qyKQqysGGKmw0xyJSJsnlBN87n6s!426034710?styleid=100565658&styleid=10- - 0570661&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=features
About a week ago when I looked at the Milan (will be on my short list).
Before that when I saw the Solstice (wouldn't get it though, doesn't fit what I need).
And every time I see that CTS in the garage
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I believe it's the othere way around.
- 2000 E430 4-matic with 125k that needed nothing more than tires, brakes and a few lightbulbs.
- 2002 C230K coupe with 100k+ that needed all of the above plus a sway bar in the front and a new hanger for the rear hatch cover
- 2005 CLS with something like 35k on it that hasn't had anything go wrong yet.
The last two were during the merger...
I do know there are some MB horror stories out there, but from my personal experience, they still build one hell of a car. I am not too leery of the MB/Chrysler relationship as I was when the whole thing went down.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
We are living in an information based society that has access to much more info than even in the last 10 years or so (internet). We are now able to compare cars within seconds and make a more informed decision when it comes to purchasing cars. Most companies are aware of this and are careful to match or surpass their competition's specs.
You hit the nail on the head. GM & Ford are from the "old" school and that's why they can't compete in today's marketplace.
Good question why the Vet comes out right, I guess when GM management figures that one out, they will be on the road to recovery.
You own or drive a 'Vette and a Cobalt, they might as well be from 2 different companies. The care taken to build a 'Vette is not expended on Cobalts or Malibus, in design or quality.
You sit in a Sequioa and a Corolla, you don't feel alienated sitting in a Corolla. You can tell they cared deeply about designing the car, and the quality of the materials. Same with an Odyssey and a Civic.
Since we are on this tangent, the US cars that are worth buying to me are 'Vette, 300C, Saturn Sky/Solstice, and I like the SRX (for around $40k).
CTS interior is second rate, and poorly designed for me.
DrFill
By shutting down so much of the industrial base of this country, we are making choices that may well have very bad consequences: for example, i mentioned the multiplier effect: every job at GM supports 6-7 other jobs
What is being proposed to be shutdown is already shut down. If a plant has a 3 shift capacity and only one shift is working then 2/3 of that plant is not supporting anything. Does that plant need to stay where it is or can it be moved to another plant? I dont think anyone at GM or Ford is proposing to close plants with vibrant product lines, Cadillac or Ford Truck plants for example. What is being proposed are facilities that are already underutilized or are de facto shutdown from lack of demand.
It may be too that certain brands disappear in favor of increasing demand for 'core' brands. It's a realignment of assets. Certain locales may suffer at the benefit of other locales. Hopefully it's a zero sum game.
I have friends who drive only American and all their cars suck.
Ford Focus = Junk
Ford Explorer= Junk
Cadillac Escalade = A chevy blazer with leather and a cadillac symbol = junk
Chevy Cobalt = Junk
Ford Escort= Junk
Dodge= All dodges have crappy trannies and don't hold their value.
GM= Junk.
Pontiac Aztec = Horrible looking piece of junk.
Oldsmobiles= Old peoples brand of junk.
Name an American made car or truck and I will name you a Japanese vehicle that wins hands down in all categories.
Accord
Civic
Camry
Corolla
Maxima
Altima
Tundra
Titan
Landcruiser
Armada
Pathfinder
Pilot
4runner
They are all quality. You wont find a lemon in any of those models compared to some piece of junk malibu or taurus.
BTW-When people say a stock japanese car it's false.
Almost all Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans come fully loaded.
I bought a 2006 Maxima and last year got my wife a 2005 Camry. They were fully loaded with the base models.
The only thing they didn't have was the navigation system and the heated outside mirrors.
Cruise= standard
Power Windows= standard
ABS= Standard on Camry
Intermittent= Standard.
Drive a Camry, Accord, or Maxima and you will never want to jump in an American made car again. Period.
My 2 cents...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If all 6 major manufacturers buy various parts and subassemblies from Magna are only some of these American?
Does the 80+% of the steel and aluminum supplied from domestic mills to transplants make those auto makers now less 'foreign'? USS is hardly an 'owned' supplier. More faulty logic.
Oh the 'ownership' you say is offshore... except for the banks and mutual funds here that hold the stocks and bonds of offshore publicly traded manufacturers ... for 401k funds here.
Too many holes in your logic about what is 'American'. It is a very small world now and very intertwined. That's business. Life goes on.
I work for a living and I am not a multi-millionaire so I HAVE to get value for my money. Honda does not represent mankind's salvation similar to the second coming of Christ - this is not what I am saying - what I am saying is that this particular Accord that I am driving is giving me good value for my money. Maybe all of the other Accords are crap - I do not know because I have not driven them all - I just know that as long as I continue to be treated right by Honda then I have no reason to drive anything else. It is entirely possible that some day I will get stuck with a Honda lemon and when that happens it will be interesting to see what, if anything, Honda will do for me under these circumstances.
The title of this forum is "What will it take for consumers to buy American brands?" The answer is very simple: this consumer needs a customer full satisfaction or your money back guarantee in writing at the time of purchase. I need this in writing because the American companies can not be trusted to do the right thing when things go horribly wrong for their customers.
'..taken better care of..'
'..they were threatened by the dealers..'
'..added lots of extra maintenance..'
'..hidden recall repairs..'
Would you have specific data supporting these generalizations? As you know all generalizations are false.
Including that one?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Both. When the Honda and Toyota plants first came to America, there was a lot of scuttlebutt about the management teams being almost all japanese.
Uhhh that was 21 years ago!!! at least. I guess that by your logic .. when Ford was run by Jacques Nasser it was not an American company either. I thought it was.
You are digging massive logic traps for yourself all over the place.
First Auburn Hills is no longer an 'American' company and now for a period neither was Ford.
Maybe ... they are all international companies with stockholders and managers from all over the world. Some just do a better job than others.
You are a veritable wealth of misinformation. Where was it designed?
Finally, a Great American Rental!
LOL! :P
Ok, that was a little low, but you set 'em up, I'll knock 'em down.
DrFill
I'll elaborate in more detail.
The best american vehicle would be a combination of these.
Accelerate like a Cadillac-V series, Handle Like a BMW, Have the technology like a Lexus/Acura.
Rocky
For me, all I want is an AWD sedan with a stick that's fun to drive. Unfortunately, when I was looking, I didn't see any GM/Ford/Chrysler that fit the bill.
If Chrysler 300 or a Dodge Charger came in AWD and a stick, I'd seriously consider it!
My Dream Vehicle would be a 6-Speed Manuel Cadillac CTS-V with the 515 hp. LS-7 V-8,
Interior/Exterior Qualtiy and design like a Lexus, Handling like a BMW, Audi Quattro AWD w/ 4 Wheel Steering
(a.k.a. rear active steer) Voice Recognition System, That operates the audio, climate, seats, windows, mirrors, etc etc. AC, Heated, Massaging Seats, PWR. sunshades, Butt loads of safety and crash advoidance features, night vision, HUD, 15 Speaker DVD Surround Sound System which includes "two" 10's in the back, Radar and Laser detectors/jammers built in. XM-Nav traffic, Onstar, swivel headlamps, 5 yr. 100K warranty, all for $55K.
I may sound extreme, But the Acura RL does most of this for $49K.
Rocky
Looks, power, room, prestige, dynamics, there are a lot of aspects to a car purchase, and at $50k it could be some of these, or all, to make a success.
I think the TL finally becoming a hit set the bar rather high for the RL, and the RL just hasn't cleared it, similar to how the TL used to struggle vs. the ES and others.
Standard AWD doesn't help either, if you don't live in the Snow Belt or the NorthEast. That can hurt a car's value with added weight and expense.
DrFill
The quote, you referred to had to do with management, not ownership.
Nice rant, though.
Here is a little more misinformation for you.
Have you ever seen the list of management at most of the japanese transplant factories and the engineers that many of them hire to design their vehicles or in many cases brought here from Japan?
It is difficult to find an American in the mix.
Hey, maybe the domestic companies should get wise and start stealing managers and engineers from the japanese companies. Maybe that will fix their problems.
I don't give a flip who makes it, but I am more inclined to support the manufacturer that at least makes baby steps towards less destructive options. I consider myself a citizen of the world first and of the USA second.
Ford, GM, and Chrysler have concentrated on making enormous ecological catastrophes. That alone is reason to avoid supporting them with a purchase. But, there are many other reasons, too.
Inclement weather such as snow, happens in more places than not at some point in the season. I see why the RL is a justifiable purchase for anyone. Edmonds ranked it #1 AWD car money can buy.
Not to mention you can get a good deal on a lease.
Rocky
Yeah.. this is exactly what fat execs at GM and Ford want you to think and feel guilty about. Laying off tens of thousands is like making a statement. Its like saying this is what you get for not buying ours. The fat hogs dont give a hoot as to what the average joe being laid off feels trying to get food on table. Bob Lutz is a millionaire before Wagoner hired him and collects millions to have a nice airplane collection. Why dont they lay him off.. people can do a better job than him for a mere fraction of what he gets paid. If this is not class warfare, I dont know what is... Class system has never been gone after any number of revolutions.. It still is there... I got nothing against white collar folks its the gazillionaires at the top who are the problem.
But how many people that buy Pontiac Vibes know that it is a Toyota design. Does not Vibe sell well and have good reviews? Maybe salvation for GM is to semi-secretly set up deal with Toyota to design and engineer all Pontiacs and Buicks. Most people who buy these will not know and word will get out how good these Pontiacs and Buicks are. It will be a win-win situation for GM and Toyota. Toyota will allow GM to kind of stay competitive and Toyota will avoid negative press in US.
Toyota and Honda are some of the best Japanies companies period. They are better then Sony as far as company is concerned. Its not like people like Japanies cars all that much. Mitsubishi and Isuzu and Suzuki and Subaru other Japanies car companies are struggling all over the world.
What we have here is the competition between two very mediocre American companies like Ford and GM vs two great Japanies companies like Toyota and Honda. They just happed to compete in the same market. I will bet that if GM was as good a company as GE, they would not have any problems competing with Toyota.
Ford was never such a great company to start with. They always have their ups and downs. Ford was close to death many times before. Early 80's come to mind when they had lower market share then now. But Ford always manages to survive. They are not the best, but they are survivors.
GM simply got to fat, to happy and too lazy. GM used to be a great company but that time is well past. I would compare GM with ATT. In their prime they were world class companies that could compete with anybody. Now there is no more ATT and soon there will be no more GM. In 1980 nobody thought that ATT would disappear. Now there is no more ATT. Look the same thing will happed to Toyota in 50 years.
What would it take for consumers to buy American cars? Well the first thing it would take a bankruptcy of GM. GM in its current state cannot survive. New management must come in and change GM to operate at world standards. The way best companies in America operate.
I think a phrase from The Matrix applies to GM: "Welcome to the real world."
I am certain that the top manager at Georgetown or Marysville or Smyrna is Japanese. But I'm also certain that the majority of others are American.
BTW.. the Avalon was designed jointly in Newport Beach, CA and in Mich.
Auburn Hills? Chrysler is a German company.
Ownership? It's the stockholders no matter where they are located.
Except for the ones in charge. A wealth of misinformation you are. New subject... vehicles ...
http://tinyurl.com/9rg5k