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Comments
And, they would probably be better and cheaper trees in time given the Japanese mindset that pursues relentless improvement in processes and procedures.
At least Nissan had and has outstanding engineering capabilities. Drive any VQ V6 of the last decade and see that no American brand V6 engine comes close in power/smoothness. GM could take lesson here. Nissan advertises that they make only "one" V6 engine. GM has at least a handful of V6s. Think that management, finance, planning were the problem with Nissan that Ghosn of Reno solved.
On June 30, Toyota awarded a new assembly plant to Woodstock, Ontario, Canada. The Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association issued a formal press release complimenting Toyota. After the announcement, I was interviewed by media for additional comments.
I was asked to elaborate on details related to the skilled workers in Ontario and in the Southeastern United States. The comments were my own personal comments and are not shared by Toyota or any other vehicle manufacturer. International surveys have verified the average skill level of Ontario residents is one of Ontario's competitive advantages in North America. My comments taken in their total context were meant to highlight that quality and were not meant to disparage workers elsewhere.
I never used the word "illiterate," nor would I. I have been in this industry a long time. The use of diagrams and illustrations is common. I was horrified that my remarks were reported as they were.
I have led four trade missions to the Southeastern United States. Several Canadian suppliers have set up plants there as a direct result of these trade missions. If I believed what the article implied, would I have done so? I think not.
I must profoundly apologize for the agony the interpretation of my comments has caused. I hold a high regard for the residents of the Southeastern United States. I do not think in the way the newspapers have made it seem.
Gerry Fedchun
President, Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
What would it take? At this point, I am pretty set in my ways, so it would take equivalent product for less money to convince me to switch. Even if the domestics seemed to be every bit as good in reliability, quality and design, I would still see a risk in buying a domestic make versus the import.
I know the import is good in reliability, quality and design. It would take an economic incentive to get me into a domestic that I think is as good. Or I guess the domestics could make something better than the imports and sell it for the same dough.
But at this point, I don't even think maybe that the domestics are as good.
Good idea - spend your R&D making one great versatile engine, and using it throughout your model line (or lines really with Nissan and Infiniti).
"Actually, Hyundai quality is no where near the top. There overall vehicle quality is still below industry average."
Brand performance
J.D. Power's survey of 2005 car buyers found an industry average of 118 problems reported for every 100 vehicles. Here are the number of problems per 100 vehicles for each brand:
Above average
Lexus 81
Jaguar 88
BMW 95
Buick 100
Cadillac 104
Mercedes-Benz 104
Toyota 105
Audi 106
Infiniti 109
Hummer 110
Hyundai 110
Honda 112
GMC 113
Lincoln 113
Acura 116
I dunno...beating Honda puts them near the top as far as I'm concerned.
Oh, and a tip of the hat to Cadillac and Buick for their positions on this list! As far as what I see on the road, Cadillac is the only domestic that really has developed a sense of style (albeit not everyone's taste). I like what I see from them - I could see myself in a CTS (as long as the switchgear is not from the typical GM parts bin).
Everyone usually treats these forums as death matches.
And I'll bet Fedchun got a really "warm" greeting on his next trade mission to the Southeast!
Yep, VQ40DE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_VQ_engine
Contrast this to the four of five (depending on how you want to count) V6 engine families GM has to cover a smaller displacement range.
Yeah, I know there are a lot of studies out there. Which one is a true measure of quality and dependability? Is Consumer Reports more reliable than JD Power and then which JD Power Study is more reliable.
Any suggestions?
I can see this being a source of contention with Japan. China and Europe do buy American though (American-owned, anyway. A lot of their American cars are designed and built there.)
Dont ya hate it when facts get in the way of your misconceptions. Kill the messenger.
So just to be clear. In your world Chrysler should stop doing business in this country along with Toyota, Honda, et al.
The millions of tons of domestic steel used by Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, et. al. should be used where exactly when these companies leave the US?
GM should continue to support the unemployed UAW workers in the lifestyle to which they have been accustomed with their negotiated welfare program... while lemko wants to flush these freeloaders down the toilet.
So along with the presently unemployed UAW welfare workers you now will add to the rolls the soon-to-be-unemployed workers in the Toyota Honda parts suppliers and their families along with the Steel workers, and their families, when you have Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, et al leave the country.
Nice mess you've gotten us into, Ollie.
Maybe your ideas are just off a little. Economics 101 at your local community college will help somewhat.
'06 Tundra
'06 Tacoma
'06 FJ Cruiser
'06 Avalon
'06 RAV4
'07 Camry
and many of the new Lexus'.
Now to the main discussion. Quality of the Big 3 has improved to the point where I don't believe that's the reason for poor sales. If you ask people what they look for in a car, the overwhelming top answer is style. They want cars that look good and make their owners look good. Why do you think the new Chrysler cars have been successful? Because they look good. Chrysler is well on their way, but Ford and GM still need to improve.
Primary problem I see is the interiors. There's not a single domestic car that can touch the quality and style of the imports' interiors. Even those attractive Chrysler cars have cheap-looking interiors, though not as bad as Ford and GM. For starters, to get Americans wanting domestic cars, start building them as stylish as the imports, both inside and out. People no longer care about "buying American". They just want to buy what they believe is best, wherever it comes from.
Next problem is resale value. For the long term owner, this is not so critical. If you're buying a car to keep for 6+ years, the resale value is not terribly important. It does become important for those who lease or replace their cars frequently. These are the very customers they should be focused on. It just makes good business sense to concentrate on the frequent buyers, right?
If the Big 3 believe their cars are the best in the world, they need to get them on the road to prove it. When Lexus started out, they knew their flagship LS400 was as good or better than any car in the world. To prove it, they offered a 2 year lease with an 81% residual factor. Thousands of Mercedes E and S-class, BMW 5 and 7-series, and other luxury cars were traded for this new luxury sedan with a payment hundreds less than their previous car. It was only a 2 year commitment, so not much risk to the customer. Well, the rest is history. Lexus proved they belong with the best, and now people are willing to pay a profitable price for their cars. It really didn't cost Toyota very much either, since their own credit division provided the leases. Basically, Toyota Credit bought the cars from Toyota Motors (Lexus), provided the customer financing, then owned the cars at the end. Everything in one family.
The Big 3 need to do this. If GM thinks Cadillac is as good as the luxury imports, prove it. Offer an irresistable short term lease to get people into those cars and make believers out of them. GMAC would provide the financing. Since they are the most profitable part of GM Corp, they can afford a program like this. If the end result is people believing in Cadillac, spreading the word, and buying again, then it's worth any short term costs. Ford can do the same with Lincoln.
They can also do this with the mainstream sedans. If you really believe that people just need to drive a Malibu to realize it's better than Accord, roll out a sweetheart lease deal. It's better than lowering the price with rebates or incentives. By not discounting the purchase price, you're not watering down the resale value.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
also let the "big 3" advertise to a younger crowd, scion and civic is boosting sales thru the roof, with more features and cheaper than the crappy cobalt, 13k for no power windwos i mean cmon add some features even the dx civic has some.
First of all, I think most would agree that Chrysler's interiors are the lowest quality of the Big 3. I am no Ford fan but even Ford is ahead of Chrysler in terms of interiors. Look at the Navigator, the Zephyr and the new explorer. There are no vehicles in Chrysler's stable that can match those vehicles. I'm not even sure if Chrylser has anything that looks as good as the Milan on the inside. GM is probably about the same as Ford and thus is clearly ahead of Chrysler. Look the inteior of the Lucerne, H3, Torrent, Impala and the new full size SUVs. They are superior the 300C and Charger and are definitely competitive with comparable imports.
People love to generalize as if all import interiors are great and all domestic interiors are crappy. In terms of the Asians I would say Acura and Lexus are defnitely at the head of the pack. Once you remove them from the equation you are left with vehicles that are less than spectacular. When people like you say no domestic interior can touch that of an import I have to wonder what cars you are referring to. The Camry? I hope not. The Altima? even after it's 2004 update it's no better than a G6 or Malibu. The Azera or Sonota? Please spare me because both cars look like they are 5 years old already. Even the corolla and Mazda3 aren't really heads and shoulders above the cobalt. I have spent a lot of time in the 3 so I am pretty familiar with it's interior plastics. I can assure you it is not in a higher league than the Cobalt. There is no brightwork anywhere in the interior, just a sea of hard black plastic. The gauge cluster is the only standout part of the interior design.
Secondly, who said imports where stylish? Again, I would like so see some examples. When I think of the bread and butter of import sales (camry, accord, Sonata, altima) I dont see all that much style. Acura has finally started turning out a few attractive models but Toyota, Nissan and Honda arent doing much to show me they have figured out how to design an attractive car. How are cars like the Impala, G6, Fusion, Lacrosse any more style challenged than the Camry and Accord? If the Lacrosse was a Honda would people be saying it lacked style? Of course not. The main excuse offered by most import sympathizers is "it works so well it doesnt need to be good looking. I dont care about styling I care about quality". That is fine, but dont try and critize American cars for lacking style if that is your point of view. Just say that you are willing to put up with borign styling from Japan, but not the US because you dont feel american products have the quality to make you forget about their styling.
A lot of people on here are talking about resale value and I think we can all agree that you should by an import if your only concern is resale value. Just make sure you are actually coming out on top. I dont see the point in paying $3000 more for a car just so you can trade it in for $3000 more than a comparable domestic in five years.
You are telling me about the interior of Oldsmobile models, but the last Olds interior was new for the 1999 model year. The Alero was a 6 year old model when Olds finally stopped production so I dont quite consider that GM's best modern effort if that makes any sense to you. If we are going to talk about the interior of the Intrigue or Alero than they should be compared the pre-2003 Accord and pre-2002 Camry.
I dont find the cobalt's interior to be any worse than other compacts. It's definitely better than any compact Ford, Nissan, Mitsubishi or Hyundai and equal to that of the corolla.
I dont pretend to defend Chrysler products so I dont have much to say about the Caravan. I rented a Town and Country several years ago and thought the interior was accpetable, if not luxurious. It was definitely on par with the sea of plastic interior found in the last generation Odyssey.
I think Chrysler's current interiors, in vehicles like the LX cars, Durango, Ram, etc, are a bit "fake me out", where the grains and textures often look nice and rich, until you touch them and feel that they're just cold, harsh plastic. Chrysler also has a bad habit of combining nice materials and textures with ones that clash, and it downgrades the look of the interior.
Now Ford has made some incredible strides in the past couple years. The current F-150 and Expedition are downright impressive when it comes to interiors. And the 500/Montego, even if the overall car might seem a bit dull, at least does seem to have a nice interior. Some of their outgoing products though, like the Grand Marquis, Crown Vic, And Taurus/Sable are really crying out for attention.
GM does seem to finally be getting it, in some respects. The new Impala doesn't seem bad, and while I'm not overly impressed with the Malibu's interior, it doesn't make me sick, either. I think some of the Pontiacs are still a bit overdone and the plastickiness shows through, like on the Grand Prix and G6. GM's current big trucks and SUVs are pretty bad inside, but that's supposed to change in a major way with the next redesign.
I think the domestics CAN compete. The problem is that they're too hit-or-miss. It would be nice if they could just go ahead and put quality into EVERYTHING at the same time, instead of a hit here and a miss there.
Small volume niche vehicles like Scions, Prius, Mazda3's, 350Z's can have very edgy distinctive styling to appeal to the narrow client base who intend to buy it.
Mainstream vehicles like the 300, Avalon, Lacrosse, 500 can be very unique to appeal to a special level of buyer... but the quality has to be impeccable inside and out.
High volume basic transportation vehicles like the Malibu, Camry, Sonata, et al must appeal to everyone ( not annoy anyone ) so the styling should be intentionally pretty bland but not cheap. There is a big difference. Cadillac quality interior in a Malibu? Why not?
Your point about offering subvented leases to get more potential buyers into your revamped lineup is a good one. It takes education because lots of people still think they want to own a vehicle even if they endup trading every 3-4 yrs anyway. $199/mo grabs a lot of attention tho. For sure though if it's as successful as the Toyota/Lexus program was in the 90's then GMAC will take big losses when these are turned in if the residual is artifically too high.
But as I mentioned in an earlier post a lease with a guaranteed residual avoids the situation where a satisfied Fusion, Malibu, Cobalt purchaser comes back to trade in 3+ yrs and finds that the latest fire sale has ruined the value of 'his' vehicle.
This impression of not being able to sell his horrible vehicle will be eliminated with a lease, subvented or not, the resale value is of no issue.
1. Short overhang (front and back).. Sick of sitting yards behind the front end and trying to negotiate tight parking spots.
2. No rattles .. from anywhere inside the car
3. Good sound insulation. (Dont want to hear any road noise.. engine noise etc)
4. Tight gaps in both exterior (sheet metal has to sit flush with other sheet metal) and interior.
5. Nice soft thunk when closing doors/ trunk..
6. Good interior materials (pleasing to the eye) and design. Soft touch materials and high quality fabric.
7. Nice legroom in the back (big cars with little rear legroom equates to poor engineering)
8. Three adults should sit comfortably in rear seat.
9. Tight turning radius.
10. Steering should be easy and light.. Sick of wrestling with steering wheels
11. Comfortable suspension.. Should absorb all the bumps (nothing sporty which translates to pain in the neck and kidney damage)
12. Decent price (luxury at affordable prices)
13. Pleasing colors (exterior and interior)
14. Good reliability (No timing belts breaking and fuel pumps dying in the middle of nowhere)
15. Decent resale value (Nothing that drops like a rock and is worth a fraction in just 4 years)
What the heck is ROFLOL. At least with lemko, could find poseur in the dictionary.
Stabilitrak is on the LeSabre and has been since at least the 03. Ours has it!!!
It probably was offered before that!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rolling On Floor Laughing Out Loud
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You are taking what is perhaps the most problematic model in recent years and attributing its flaws to a much wider population of vehicles. I have had perhaps 100+ vehicles in my fleets and the *ONLY* blown engine was on a ... Honda Accord.
Your opinions on interior quality are contradictory to most opinions of the public, the major automotive magazines, and logic.
I read your profile, in it you say "Am I the only one who thinks the camry is the sexiest car on the road?". That sounds pretty contradictory to what you're currently posting.
killerpiece :shades:
***Engaging in a little hyperbole ???
Annual tuition and fees at McGill University is $3k for Quebecois, $11 for non-residents.
Most US public universities range from $4-7, more but certainly NOT 10x.
The problem is that GM doesn't seem to have heard of it. They put it in two Cadillacs and one high-trim Buick. Malibu and Impala buyers will never know it, nor will G6 and Grand Prix buyers. It's still an open question if Saturn Aura buyers will know it. Frankly, Holden gets more use from the 3.6HF than GM North America does.
The G6 shoulda had it. Same with Malibu.
Hell, Colorado could use something too!
Is this evidence of more effective Gm management? Or is health care to blame for second-rate engines?
DrFill
You are taking what is perhaps the most problematic model in recent years and attributing its flaws to a much wider population of vehicles. I have had perhaps 100+ vehicles in my fleets and the *ONLY* blown engine was on a ... Honda Accord.
Well, the Windstar is the car *my family bought*. So that's the one I used to compare to. And that's what I develop my perceptions upon. But let's also talk about Chrysler Minivan transmissions and Taurus engines. Not only does the Taurus engine sound like a unbalanced washing machine, their engines in the 90's didn't last very long. For cars I've owned:
VW Bug - 235K miles
VW Jetta - 143K miles
Honda Accord - 125K miles
Mercury Villager (Nissan engine, transmission) - 196K miles
NO transmission fixes, ever, to the above vehicles.
Only one engine overhaul, on the VW Bug.
My American nameplate perception started when I was driving my old Bug in college and my friend bought a *brand new* Chevy Vega! Within 3 years his car was rusting away and the engine finally went at 55K miles. That POS ensured I'd never buy a GM product - they're paying for a lost customer due to a mistake they made 30 years ago. I'm not going to gamble my hard earned money on companies who care so little about the quality of their vehicles.
When I get in an American nameplate like the rental 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee (brand new model) I drove this summer, I see cheap interior, another washing machine engine with little power, gas guzzler, little interior space, and poor ergonmics. These are the experiences that shape my perceptions.
Combine this with heavy discounts and you have a tainted view of a domestic on the resale market. A good car today takes about 5 years to travel on the perception conveyor belt. This suggests to me the the big 3 have a long way to go.
(by the way I still like the Malibu - current redesign is a mess... wonder why it doesn't come with a manual transmission)
One thing a Vega did have over its Japanese competition was that it was infinitely more attractive, especially the 1971-73 generation.
I'm not defending the Vega. It truly was bad, but I would've never been in the market for a teeny car like that in the first place. I'd have purchased a Chevrolet Impala or Caprice - two excellent cars.
My grandmother foolishly traded her excellent black 1964 Chevrolet Biscayne for a mustard-colored 1973 Vega. Even to my 8 year-old eyes I could tell this car was nowhere as well-made as the '64. In place of a real cloth headliner was an ill-fitting piece of perforated partical board. The car was cramped, filled with ill-fitting hard plastic bits and exposed metal brackets. I do recall Grandmom often visiting the Chevy dealer for one problem or another as a mechanic popped the hood to take a look. I don't remember Grandmom's car rusting out really fast, but it did look pretty bad by the time she got rid of it in 1980. Somehow she got 7 years out of it.
Another big part of the disparity is fleet sales to rental companies. Rental companies buy cars at huge discounts, use them for 2-3 years, and then sell them. This floods the used vehicle market with lots of well maintained 2-3 year old cars, which lowers prices. The big three sell the majority of rental cars, and they have the worst resale. Toyota sells some (but not as many) cars to rentals, and they have better resale value. Honda sells almost no fleet sales, and they have the best resale value of any mainstream brand.