By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
And your beer comparison simply doesn't work. A better comparison would be between Bud and Sierra Nevada, Bass or some other fine ale. Bud is just a bog standard beer that is a vehicle for alcohol. Sierra Nevada has taste and character. Anyone who has driven a BMW knows darn well that there's not an American car on the road that can compare in terms of performance, feel, styling, or prestige.
You're statement that "people who drive expensive vehicles, are usually driving to make up for something" shows that you, like everyone else, judges people based on the way they dress, look and what they drive. Maybe people who drive BMWs are worried about what people they hang out with will think of them if they buy a Chevy.
You are right on one point; it all comes down to the fact that sometimes "perception is reality." However, I believe there is substance to the difference and until my "perception" changes, I'll be driving Subies, Toyotas, Volvos and Bimmers.
I agree with you also on the care people take of their vehicles. I know people who have one domestic and one foreign vehicle and the foreign vehicle gets the garage, gets washed more often and gets oil changed more regularly. It's not necessarily the nicer of the two cars, it's just treated differently.
One of these acquaintenances said that it is because the foreign manufacturer will void the warranty if you do not do routine maintenance. Is this true? And is it true for all imports?
Did you drive the 2006 Explorer? Ford advertising says, "the best Explorer ever", I think that is a true statement. In my comparison between Explorer and 4Runner, the cabin noise was the same, if not quieter. Visually, the Explorer, to me, is nicer. But, just like you have an opinion, so do I. Interiors were equally nice. I thought the Explorer was laid out better. That's why I bought one. Also, I saved a lot, and I mean a lot of money!
"You people that drive Lexus, BMW, etc need help."
Really. Last I checked Toyota, Honda, BMW, MB and others weren't giving their cars away with the latest "red light especial". Who needs help???
"I am in Sales, and if I start driving a Lexus, my client may think I have it made, and really do not need his business. So, I drive a Chevy Trailblazer, a good "ordinary" vehicle several people on this forum like to state."
My dad's company car is an '03 Pontiac Grand Prix GT. Guess what cars he actually bought with HIS OWN money in the last decade? 2 Acura MDX's, and 3 Nissan models.
The Grand Prix, while somewhat reliable (cracked manifold the first month he had it) is an absolute piece of garbage. The interior is typical GM "playschool" materials that can be taken apart by a 2 year old. The rear seats are miserable, and the ride is about as athletic as a mid 80's Delta 88. Yup, if only those pesky BMW owners would just "suck it up" and buy a Pontiac instead of being brainwashed by the press...
http://www.greghome.com/images/Delta-88%20Pics/Stock/Delta-88_Front_Three_Quarte- r.jpg
A guy at work recently bought a 4runner...as cheap and basic a model as he could get and still have 4wd. I've sat in it. It's actually a nice truck once you get used to the exterior style. And as time goes by, I think it'll appear less harsh. After all, Azteks don't stick out nearly as bad today as they did 6 years ago. I think we've been shocked enough with other stuff since then that it's dulled the senses a bit.
A couple of things, almost all my friends who were diehard BMW fans in the 80's and into the 90's now would not consider one. Now many of them consider BMW way overpriced. Secondly I thought the Caddy did a much better job at impressing me than a 5 series did.
Maybe people who drive BMWs are worried about what people they hang out with will think of them if they buy a Chevy.
If thats the case many people who drive BMW's are snobs. If the people they hang out with think any less of them because they drive a Chevy then they hang out with snobs. Very simple isn't it?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Unfortunately, interiors tended to not hold up very well on them, although they were pretty plush and comfy. Most of the kinks were worked out of the 3800 V-6 by then, but the FWD 4-speed automatic was still a bit iffy.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The press is biased, for the American automakers! Chrysler 300C has the most awards heaped on it than any import car. And it is based the previous E, so how outstanding could it be!
All the American mags that compare the Solstice and Miata, they all gave the nod to the American. But CAR, the British mag, did the same comparo and pronounced the Miata fabulous, and basically thought the Solstice a piece of crap. So who's being objective? I bet the American mags were bending backwards to help the home team!
The reason the American press has little good to say about Detroit is because it doesn't put out good products! As simple as that!
You obviously didn't get my point. GMFan was saying that he judged people who drove Lexus's and BMW's and was "worried" about what people thought when he drove his wife's Lexus. That's reverse snobbery, and no better btw.
3800 with a 4 speed. Outstanding engineering those GM folks. Now available in the 2006 Lucerne...
"This is not a true statement."
Let's compare two cars . . . the '05/'06 Toyota Avalon was designed primarily by Americans at Toyota's West Coast design center in Newport Beach, California, and it's built by American workers in Georgetown, Kentucky, largely of American-made parts and components.
Though it's aimed at a very different market segment, the Pontiac GTO was designed primarily by Australians at GM's Holden division in Australia and is built by more Australians at Holden's Elizabeth plant in South Australia.
Unless you give an inordinate amount of weight to the value-added contributions of a pencil pusher at the corporation's home office, a Toyota primarily designed and built in the USA does have more American value-added content than a Pontiac primarily designed and built in Australia.
Many of the foreign brands are supplying themselves with parts from suppliers located in the US . . . They call these parts "American". I don't.
They remain American parts regardless of what you choose to call them.
You might try something more realistic than criticizing an engine and transmission you know little about other than the numbers. I've had 3 and they are powerful and great workers for me--an lots of others. And many of those will buy a Lucerne with the same combination, because IT WORKS!
You might try criticizing transmissions over in the Honda discussions. That's a more realistic location. Even a Honda salesman admitted people trade in their Hondas with morning sickness and the dealer doesn't know it's another defection transmission until they go to move the car the next day and it doesn't work right until it's warmed up. Must be a common tradein problem for the prohonda person to state it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I guess I use more personal experiance than forums to make my judgments...
Ummm... While I'm on your side, I'm not sure your statement true. I'm shopping for a roadster and just read Car and Driver's comparison and it chose the Miata. Same with Edmunds comparison. Road and Track can't seem to make up its mind between the two.
Check out:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=10244
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=2907
The Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, the 300/Charger/Magnum, the Solstice/Sky is a start here.
The first set IMO nail the segment. The second set took the "American attitude" approach and it paid off, big time.
The Sol/Sky attacked the segment against the Miata. Excellent effort, good style. Kudos.
"If protecting the American auto industry is that important to the country, and that important to the country, the government should be supporting it. The government could have placed tariffs on imports, and made it more difficult for imports to sell at better prices than domestics. Especially from countries with low cost labor, and not only full vehicle manufacturers but also parts suppliers. They could help level the playing field by releaving some of the big 3's legacy cost burdens. In other words, they could take action to help make it more profitable for the big 3 to do business. "
Well, you might recall that after some negotiations with the US gov't back in the early 1980's, the Japanese auto industry agreed to voluntary quotas when the gov't threatened tariffs. I'm sure that this made the legislators feel like they really accomplished something.
And they did. First, they made the American market even more lucrative for the Japanese companies. Here's how: the Japanese stopped importing the low-end models. Mostly every car brought in was options-loaded. And because the demand was now higher than the supply, the dealers were adding substantial surcharges to the window sticker price - there was no deal on Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans. I remember shopping for a car then and looking at the Hondas. I don't recall the mark-up, but I recall the sales guy telling me I couldn't test drive anything 'cause they had pretty much pre-sold every delivered vehicle and that the dealer sticker was "the price!" In the end I bought a VW which serviced me well (and at a neogotiated price).
The second thing the gov't achieved with the voluntary quota system was the invasion of Japanese assembly plants into the US. These nicely circumvented the quota since the cars were, by percentage of total parts, "American." Did that help the domestic brands? I don't think so. Maybe it made the constituents feel better, since they created new jobs, many in the Southern (non-union) states.
Personally, I think the free market would have rectified the problems for the domestic manufacturers early on, if it had been left alone. The US gov't is famous for creating "unintended outcomes" when it gets involved in the free economy. Live or die by the free market!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sure, and a horse and buggy would work too.
Seriously, the Lucerne with that old school combo will work fine for some. Too bad it is SADLY outclassed by the Avalon (this gen and the last BTW), or the new Azera. I have a feeling that combo will work EVEN BETTER for those who will be reeping the benefits once red flag sale is required to move them from the lots.
Mostly agree with you. There is still something to be said for protecting your home turf and our home turf is not protected. I don't want to spend my hard-earned US dollar buying nothing but imported goods. There was the day when an "imported good" meant something really special. Today, that's just about everything. I don't think it has to be like that. Not that I have the answer, but I don't like the direction our country is going.
Frankly, I'm tired of people telling me, (I'm a domestic owner and domestic supporter) well, look at your DVD player and stereo and iPod, those are all imports. And I just have to say, "Yeah, that's the point."
Apparently you didn't get my point. I was being IRONIC. If you had gotten it you wouldn't have had to reply.
Sorry, foreign parts made on American soil does not make them "American" parts.
Also, the Toyota Avalon you mentioned; those who actually designed and engineered the car were not Americans. I agree on the workers at the plant, but the managers at the plant are mostly transplants from Japan. You see, we Americans don't know how manage people to get good quality out of the US auto worker. That's a frickin' slap in the face.
Insider info or media source? Curious...
This is just one heck of a over-generalized incorrect statement. It's statements like this and similar sentiments that are putting the last nails GM and Ford's coffins. (I say that somewhat tongue in cheek.) I don't think they'll go under, but when they get things sorted out, they will be shells of their former selves. And as I've said before, I don't think it is good for America.
The Solstice is not a "piece of crap" compared to the Miata.
The Fusion is not a "piece of crap" compared to the Accord and Camry.
The F-150 is not a "piece of crap" compared to the Tundra.
The Freestyle is not a "piece of crap" compared to the Pilot or Highlander.
Everyone of these are very good vehicles and comparable to all makes in their respective segments. Period!
I'd say you have no taste buds, but hey if you like it...
Anyway, I don't care much for reliability and quality scores. I care about feel. Different cars do have different feel and they're not going to cater to everybody.
For example, my girlfriend test drove several cars, and ultimately narrowed it down to either an Accord or an RSX. She simply felt better driving them. I was pushing her towards a Mazda, but she said it felt like a Focus she had driven and she didn't like that feel. I was surprised because I personally like the feel of Mazda and Ford-Europe cars a lot... but she just didn't. GM had their employee pricing going on, but the Malibu and G6 weren't to her taste either (she lumped the Camry together with them, as far as feel goes).
I don't think it's correct to say that there's a domestic for everyone. Especially for sedan/coupe buyers. Or hatchback fans. Or manual transmission fans. Or smallish people - we fit in more imports than domestics.
One reason for that is that there are few domestic niche cars which only small companies are willing to do, and there aren't any small domestic companies. You basically have 3 choices, whereas if you're willing to be more global you get many more.
That Focus rocks! They still claimed the Civic wss the one to beat, but the Focus was quicker, livelier, and just as spirited as the TypeR. I stand by my earlier statements that when FMC really wants to put the effort into a car, they can build something really special. I believe the same applies to some of their recent offerings like the Mustang, F-series and the new Mazda6 triplets. It's that formula that they need to be consistant with to succeed in swaying import buyers IMO.
So, it was the transplanted Japanese managers at the Toyota design lab that created the design, not the engineers/designers/graphic artists/usability specialists? Pointy-hair alert...
One of the University graduates here went to work for the Nissan design lab and her co-workers were mostly Americans, native-born or naturalized.
I think the domestics need to understand that even buyers in the small car market are willing to pay a bit more for quality and refinement. Price always sells but when your buyers are done with experiencing your subpar product, they'll move on to another brand.
In the past, I have bought a number of used domestics, "true" or rebadged (Villager) because of their decent reliability, safety, and poor resale. While I agree that the big 2.66 have improved dramatically, I would have to think really hard why I would want to buy one of their mainstream vehicles NEW - this excludes luxury and exotic ones. I mean, Malibu/Impala/FoMoCo sedans are decent everyday transportation, not much different from the CamCord. But I could pick the domestics off-lease, or as former rentals, or ex-corporate-cars VERY cheaply. Why would I buy new?
To be fair, buying many import brands and models new - those that sell to fleets heavily or have poor resale for other reasons - does not make much sense either.
I agree with you 100%. I am also sorry that there are so few foreign cars in car rentals. It would be such a pleasure to drive a nice foreign car instead of the GM stuff that is usually there. You pay the money and rent a car and then they give you a Malibu or an Impala. And it’s such a letdown to have to drive this POS for a whole week. I think that more people would rent cars if rental car companies had better products to rent. I think that most people would be happy to pay extra to rent an Acura or a Lexus instead of Buick or Cadillac.
I recently came back from a trip to California. At Avis they had nothing but GM midsize SUVs. They were upgrading people for free from Compacts to SUV and still most people did not want to have one because of gas prices. I took a Trailblazer just to try it. Well this truck only had 5k miles and all ready the AIR BAG light was on. I was afraid to drive the car because I thought that the air bag would go off at any time on the freeway. You think after this I will ever step a foot into a GM dealership?
Exactly....and when/if they do bring it here, they'll de-tune the suspension, kill the horsepower, and ruin the seats.
But, in a way, you do make a good point. Ford pulled many of their vehicles out of rental car companies to help increase residual values. That, believe it or not, is working. But while they were selling butt-loads of vehicles to fleets, they made them (Hertz and Budget, for example) order cars and trucks with certain options that helped resale value at the auctions, i.e. auxiliary air-conditioning, power seats, certain paints (no black), certain audio systems. Having vehicles with some nice options, gives a renter a more positive impression of the vehicle.
Too bad you had a bad experience in your rental. They are actually there to get you to drive it, like it and buy it.
Short answer: they have to offer something I'm interested in. What interests me? Sub-2500-lb FWD cars, sub-2700-lb AWD cars, and sub-2900-lb RWD cars. Ford has nothing, Chrysler has nothing, GM has two.
I won't drive a convertible and I need more than a token cargo space, so the Solstice is out. I would have seriously considered the Nomad concept if it had gone into production.
The Aveo's not bad (though some here would disclaim it as a "real" domestic), but the new one will need to meet or beat its imminent competitors from Hyundai, Kia, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. A diesel option would sway me if its competitors don't offer it.
Besides the 8 recalls the TrailBlazer had for 2003 models, there were also 12 TrailBlazer recalls on 2002 models, although the count was only up to 9 at the time I was looking. My decision was based upon the 2002 recalls and the endless owner complaints here on Edmund's and elsewhere.
By the way, my two prior vehicles before this were a 1997 Blazer and a 1991 Z71.
Couple that with 3 star drivers crash rating and I don't think I'd want to be a driver in one either... :sick:
I think that GM really made a huge mistake with their rental fleet sales. Many people have their only contact with a GM product when they rent a car, and what do they get? An old style Malibu or Impala. After driving a car like that most people think that all GM's cars are crap. This has two effects on GM.
The first one is that it reduces the trade in value for all of GM's cars. This makes current customers unhappy because they see that in three years their cars are worth nothing. It is not a pleasant thing to hear your domestic dealer tell you that domestic cars just don't hold their value when it comes time to trade in the car. So next time many domestic car owners buy a car not made by Detroit simply to avoid huge loss on trade-in.
The second problem is that after driving junky GM rental cars people who don't own a GM car are very happy that they don't own a GM car. Their only thought is that how much better their current car is and what a smart decision they made not to buy a GM product.
My most hated car is a Chevy Lumina. Its the standard full size car National would rent. I hated that car.
Short answer: they have to offer something I'm interested in. What interests me?
In April I bought a Kia Spectra5 because I wanted a small car with enough interior space for a bicycle, computer system, or some other bulky items. I looked at the Pontiac Vibe and test drove the PT Cruiser. The only other vehicle is the Focus hatchback. The wagon is longer than I wanted. The driving position in the Focus is too low, the Vibe comes with roof racks which I don't want (could have gotten the Matrix), and the PT Cruiser felt heavy, like driving a larger car. So what else was there in late spring? The HHR wasn't out yet.
"
The latest Customer Retention study from J.D. Power and Associates finds that Lexus is the brand that keeps most customers when the time comes to purchase a new vehicle. The three-year-old study found that Lexus increased its repeat-customer rate; 63 percent of its buyers choose another Lexus, against an industry average of 49.6 percent. Lexus is followed in the rankings by Toyota (62.6%), Honda (59.9%), Chevrolet (57.3%) and Hyundai (56.3%), respectively. At the bottom of the list is Suzuki, which holds on to only 28.6 percent of its customers, although the numbers improved by 38 percent this year, Power notes. The more than 177,000 consumers polled for the new survey pointed out that things gone wrong with the previous vehicle were the biggest deterrent to buying a second vehicle from the same brand, correlating to strong finishes in Power's related Dependability Study.
"