"And Canada's people are better educated? Do you have data for that statement?!!! " At least it doen't cost a FREAKING fortune for the Canadians to obtain Higher education. McGill University is 1/10 of the price any University here in US - this sure as hell makes it easier to go to school, without bankrupting yourself early in life.
As far as healthcare is concerned - at least they can afford the medication, whereas here the pharmaceutical robbers charge you an arm and a leg for everything. try to have an operation here - it'll cost you your years worth of salary - can you afford it? I'd take Canadian healthcare any day, especially if it will save me $3600 / year on payments.
But, you see, Ford is building better cars and trucks. Unfortunately, the "voters" have become brain washed that the only good vehicle is a foreign vehicle.
Now, not to say that the "brain washed" part is not the fault of the domestic automakers. I totally agree that they lost pace with consumers. Now, though, it appears to me that they "got religion" and are trying to win back those who deserted them years ago. I know it's not going to be easy.
I also don't think Ford is a dinosaur. Their last batch of vehicles are very good and competitive with those in their segments.
Still have an old American-made Zenith console that still delivers an excellent picture. The reason the works were in the drawer was probably because it was made when TVs still used vacuum tubes. Today, everything is solid state and unserviceable. Had nothing to do with the Japanese.
Superior Japanese design and engineering made servicing of tvs unnecessary. Sony set the bar and high standard back in the early days of color tv. Bought a Sony Trintron 19" color tv in 79 and it was primary tv for many years. Used it occassionally over last 15 years and never had a problem with it. Gave it to charity last year and it was working fine.
Think there might be parallel here with superior engineering of Japanese with cars, tvs, cameras, etc. Perhaps we ought to wonder why they have better scientists and engineers and necessary management in certain areas than do we.
Recall that many years ago, an American company manufactured tvs that had low reliability. It was bought out by Japanese company and they turned around whole operation so that new brand of tvs, made at same physical plant building, had high quality/reliability
I have to stop you at "a nation of overpaid Forrest Gumps running around demanding higher pay and more benefits". Some of us do work and make a fair wage for the work done, you go to any crew working to build houses here in Florida for you doggone retiring Yankees (or Canadians)and they earn every dollar. When they dig a well, connect your cable or electric, put in your fence and gates, and pave your driveway those are well earned paychecks. Whether its working behind the counter, serving at a table, putting together components or making software, we work hard down here and are not ashamed of it. We can't help it if you Northerners dont know how to earn a honest wage for honest days work, but down here we earn and deserve every penny.. :mad:
So dont get me started on how we don't work or earn our pay in America..... :surprise:
These people have jobs because companies could pay them and be profitable. The people who lost their jobs had companies that could not do the same.
If the market prefers an identically priced import over a domestic, the import is clearly worth more. If I choose to buy the domestic car purely for patriotic reasons, I have paid over market value for the car.
First of all, the imports do not employ anywhere near "hundreds of thousands" of import manufacturing. If fact, they employ a fraction of the auto workers who lost their jobs because of the import increase in US market share.
Profit made in the US from foreign-based companies, i.e. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, go back to the "home" country to support their economy, not ours. The money made by dealerships and line workers are a fraction of the total dollars made. Also, the "American" suppliers, in many cases, are owned by Honda or Toyota, too.
Today I saw a funny thing. There was a big Dodge Ram pickup and it had a 'BUY AMERICAN' sticker on it and an American flag sticker. It had a HEMI. I almost had a good laugh.
Please explain to me how is it that when you buy a German owned companies' truck made in Mexico with a Mexican built Hemi that you 'Buy American'.
It's not Toyota's fault, but if they really want to be a hero, they can start building plants in inner city neighborhoods to relieve the decades of crushing poverty and bring hope to a blighted area. It's the fault of greedy executives who wanted to make more money they couldn't possibly spend in their lifetimes and of cheapskate consumers who wanted cheap apparel regardless of how poor the quality. Hey, if Toyota really had the cajones they would build a plant in Detroit right on the Big Three's turf.
'91 Escort bought new. I bought because of cost (I get family plan pricing) and ignorance (it was my first car and I did zero research on alternatives). Trouble-free the first 100K miles, then a couple thousand dollars in repairs post 100K miles, then totaled by drunk at 150K miles. Had it 6 years. Very satisfied.
Mazda RX-7 I bought for fun. Terrible electrical & transmission problems. Had it a year and traded it in for:
'99 Cougar bought new. Only 2 door hatch I could find at the time I liked (other similar cars had trunks...not practical for me). I currently have this car at 120K miles. Needed 2 alternators, timing belt replaced & A/C compressor. Only pre-100K repair was $500 for alternator, so extended warranty would do me no good. I put about $3000 in the car over the past 7 years in repairs.
'01 Corolla - bought it in '03 for my new wife for $8500, sold it 2 years later for $7500 to private owner (dealer would only give me $6000 as trade-in. Zero problems for those two years. I knew more about cars when I bought it, and this was a very solid & reliable car.
'05 Freestyle - bought new in Feb'05 and now have 20K miles. Great car. Only one to fit my needs (size, cost, features). If I could have bought a Toyota that had the same features for the same price, I would have, but we're happy with the Freestyle.
Bottom line is that I first look for the car that meets my needs. If there were two pretty much identical cars, then I'd do the road test and see which interior I liked best. If either would work, then I'd compare quality to price. If it's going to cost me $5K more for the higher quality foreign car, then based on my experience I'd rather pocket the $5K and buy American. If the price were the same, then I'd go for the foreign one.
I have to admit the Corolla was really solid, but I knew that it was only a temporary car and we'd need something bigger in the next couple of year, so resale value was important. For my Cougar and Freestyle, I hope to keep them about 10 years (already 7 on the Cougar), so I'm not concerned with resale value. And even though I've put $3000 in my Cougar, I probably saved that much with the Ford family plan in comparison with any similar foreign car I would have bought at the time with the same features.
I'm not in the market for a car anytime soon, but when the Cougar finally goes, I'll first look to see what fits my needs, do some test drives, compare price & quality, and make my pick.
I think the key for American manufactures is to make their cars uniquie in some manner...something that the foreign companies don't make, or make it with more space, more/different features, etc and at a lower cost to counter the foreign quality advantage.
Stop it! You’re killing me here! You actually think that paying someone to dig a hole in the ground is worth $25/ hour Why go to school then and waste all that time and money, let’s just all move to Florida and flip condos for a living. We are becoming a nation of servants. Soon we’ll be serving free drinks to Indian and Asian engineers and businessman at the new casinos. It seems to me that our nation is turning away from innovation and leadership in most fields and turning towards instant gratification. It’s not what you do anymore, it’s how much money you make. It’s disgusting to think that in the last 30 years we have lost all our core values, and now we have nothing but a flavor of the week dictated by the Mass media. It’s all about the bling-bling.
It's not Toyota's fault, but if they really want to be a hero, they can start building plants in inner city neighborhoods to relieve the decades of crushing poverty and bring hope to a blighted area.
Let's flip question around. If you were a small businessman (person), perhaps you already are, would you do it to be a hero? Would you locate your business operations in a blighted area?
I don't know that tv's are realy any more reliable these days than in the past, but they're just so cheap that when something does break, it's cheaper to just go out and buy a new one.
Back in 1972, my grandparents paid $700 for a new Zenith 25" console tv. Factoring for inflation, that's about $3200 today. So obviously, if something broke on the tv, you'd pay $50 or $75 or whatever to get it fixed. Even if the tv itself was worthless, you didn't want to have to blow $700 for a new one!
FWIW, I think that tv lasted until 1986, when the tube went out, and had never been serviced. My grandparents bought a new Zenith that had stereo and a remote (something that the other one didn't have). I think it was cable-ready, too. Anyway, by then it was down to around $500, which would be around $850 with inflation today.
Back in 2000, I bought a Sanyo 32" tv. It was on sale for $399, and came with a free VCR that I gave away as a Christmas gift. I bought a $100 5-year warranty on it that I never needed to use. Towards the end of that warranty, it started making a high-pitched noise that would come and go. Sometimes if you smacked it just right it would go away. One of my friends, who's knowledgeable about electronics, said it would probably cost $300-400 to fix. I never bothered with it because, well, the noise didn't bother me! And I didn't want to go through the effort of boxing up a 120 pound tv and taking it back to the store. Well, I also lost the warranty paperwork, and didn't feel like looking for it.
Over the summer, I bought a 32" Sharp tv for something like $249 or $269. It replaced an old 1981 or so RCA 25" console that someone gave me years ago, which still works fine. Main reason I got the tv was because I wanted something that would sit on a stand, and be up higher. That was a mixed blessing though, because now the dog notices it more, and if he sees a dog or horse on tv, he'll try to attack it! :confuse: God forbid TVLand ever runs another Lassie marathon, and forget watching any western, unless the dog gets put up.
I guess in a lot of ways cars are becoming more throwaday, just like tv's. Relatively cheap to buy, but expensive to fix when something breaks. Oh sure, a lot of those old cars had low base prices, because so much stuff was optional. My '57 DeSoto had something like a $3085 base price, but as equipped, was more like $3800. Factor in inflation (there are a ton of calculators on the net) and that's close to $26,000 today. Which could get you a pretty nice Accord or Camry V-6, or any number of other well-equipped cars, which will have a lot more in the way of technology and options than any 1957 car ever did. You definitely get a lot more for your money, but you pay dearly when it breaks out of warranty.
Yes, I would, but it's going to take a lot more than running a dry cleaners, grocery store, or restaurant to save the neighborhood. It needs the great manufacturers of the past to revive it. Budd, Baldwin Locomotive, Philco, Stetson, Botany 500, After Six, General Electric, Jack Frost Sugar, Merck, Dodge Steel, Disston Saw, and scores of others once made their products in North Philly. All are gone. Even smaller manufacturers like Christian Schmidt brewers, Quaker Lace, and Billy Penn - a maker of rain gutters are gone.
I lived in south GA, 40 miles from FL state line and worked for a huge company, and dealt with the most uneducated and slow union workers ever, that got $25/ hour. So don't assume anything, I know how the south works - " if you don't like my pace, wait till you see the next one" Needless to say, I had to adjust my expectations a lot, as things progressed very slowly. FYI, I earned pretty good southern wages :P
Build cars like that and the buyers will come, and demand will put the Big 3 back in the drivers seat, but will they do it,
Yes they will come, but it will be in small numbers and it will be the avid drivers. If the cars are perfect in everyway, they still wont attract the largest segment of the buying public that finds driving fearsome, an inconvenience or simply a 3 mi necessity.
The vehicles may be wonderful but after the initial excitement wears off the manufacturers and retail stores will be left scratching their heads wondering 'Where did everyone go? There was so much excitement last month/qtr/year now noone comes in anymore.' The small segment of 'Cuda, Sting Ray lovers just bought themselves out of the market.
The heart of the market is: -The two-income 21-y.o. former high school sweethearts now with 2 kids and one on the way who need to get out his Dad's old truck into a family sedan that they can afford. -The single school teacher who wants to reward herself for scrimping for 45 yrs with a nice step up to an Accord. -The retiring couple who doesnt want to spend much on auto expenses when they visit their grandchildren all over the Midwest. -The urban 22 y.o. musician/poet/social worker who has no idea of why anyone would want, a ?'Cuda?.
This buying public will never look at the specialty vehicles you mentioned.
The size of the country and the demographics now are much different than when these vehicles you mention were popular. Families had one car and the door to the future was 'wheels'. Now every family has 2-5 cars and wheels are way down the list of primary goals. Children are often 'given' a vehicle upon .. getting their Drivers License. Now a vehicle is just like having a bicycle back in the 50's and 60's; some were new, some were beat up and some were hand-me-downs. For the vast majority of the US market owning a vehicle is nothing to get excited about.
Feed this market with a bulletproof $20K vehicle that can be sold in 10 yrs for $3000 - $4000 that only needs oil and wear items during it's entire life. Then build 300K to 500K of these annually and it will be a winner. A Big 3 manufacturer cannot live on a 70K-80K unit specialty vehicle. Even without legacy costs and uncompetitive labor costs it's not enough volume.
Thank you for saying what I keep thinking. The avid buyers keep projecting their car wants, needs, imaginations onto others that are the core of the bulk market.
Our steel industry is but a shell of its former self as well as our textile industry.
You might speak of something you know about. The correct statement is:
'Our antiquated early-20th century integrated steel industry is but a shell of itself...'
The correct statement ends with:
'... because the vision of a few pioneering Americans revitalized the entire steelmaking processs throughout the world sounding the death knell for the dinosaurs.'
Come out of your priviledged gated community and get down in the trenches with the rest of America that is trying to make substantive changes.
I believe I saw these same words of yours in a decree by Ayatollah..... in Iran last week. Same speech writer?
is let the general public know their cars exist. There was a Jeopardy! category last night where they gave two vehicle names and the contestants had to name the make. The British lady ran the category (Audi, BMW, Isuzu, etc.) but everyone stumbled on the top clue: Aztec, Grand Prix. One guy rings in "Um, Toyota?" Other lady "Mercury?" British lady "Buick?" Pontiac's advertising managers should have cried themselves to sleep last night.
'First of all,....' Good. This is economics 101, first day of class too. The more efficient should gain competitive advantage. All is right with the world if this is working. Our economy has more output with less cost and effort. And you think there is a problem with this?
'Profit made in the US from foreign-based companies...' Uhhh goes to the shareholders.
Simple solution buy stock in the profit making companies dump stock in the loss makers. All are publicly traded here. To do otherwise is a foolish waste of resources..yours!
Also, the "American" suppliers, in many cases, are owned by Honda or Toyota, too. You brought up this on the GM forum also and ignored that I told you that over 80% of all steel used in the transplants here was from US mills. Then you said that Toyota bought the parts suppliers that they use. OK, these were American companies using American workers which changed ownership. So what, they are still part of our economy. Where is the problem?
I say this sarcastically, but I think that we on this Edmunds board might think that the general public thinks about cars like us, but if you're reading this forum, you're probably more knowledgeable then the average car buyer. People buy what they see based on "cool" advertising, what their friends drive, "deals" by a dealer, perceptions on quality & safety, implied "status" of a vehicle, etc... I think we're looking for logic solutions to convince Americans to buy from GM & Ford, when's there's not a lot of logic behind people's purchases. They buy the Lexus over the Cadallic, the MB over the Buick, the Camry over the Fusion, etc... because of...who knows??? But it's not always because of a logical analysis of the vehicle differences. Maybe cars will go the way of electronics, with everything being engineered/designed in foreign countries, but maybe still being built in America to lessen the tarriffs. Does it matter? Yes. I think the USA would be more prosperous if we build everything ourselves and only bought American for everything. Why not? We have the necessary natural resources, manpower and can develop the skilled workforce.
You wrote: "And Canada's people are better educated? Do you have data for that statement?!!! "
Only what I read when Toyota was evaluating the differences between the new RAV-4 plant in the American South versus the Canadian province of Ontario. Woodstock, Ontario won.
Here is an excerpt:
The plant will produce the RAV-4, dubbed by some as a "mini sport-utility vehicle" that Toyota currently makes only in Japan. It plans to build 100,000 vehicles annually.
The factory will cost $800 million to build, with the federal and provincial governments kicking in $125 million of that to help cover research, training and infrastructure costs.
Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.
He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.
"The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ontario," Fedchun said.
In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson.
"Most people don't think of our health-care system as being a competitive advantage," he said.
Funny thing is, Honda is a publicly held corporation. They pay dividends to shareholders, and any retained profits theoretically increases their stock value.
I own Honda stock. I get dividends when they make money. I put that money in the good ole USA.
The home country only gets a small part of the pie through tax dollars. You want to bring money into the economy? Buy some foreign stock.
The guy later claimed he never made any of those statements, and apologized profusely for the article.
Believe it or not, we have good colleges here, we have a huge medical community and a lot of industry, both with the resulting gaggle of lawyers, accountants, etc.
Do you really think Honda and Mercedes are hiring illiterate workers? They are not. They have high standards, as far as manual labor goes. Additionally, they have a long list of college educated people waiting to get a manufacturing job there.
Chrysler is just as much a foreign company as Honda Motors USA , or Toyota USA. The profits generated by Chrysler goes back to Germany to Daimler Chrysler. This is the same Toyota's profits or Honda's profits made in USA.
Just because Chrysler used to be an American company does not make it American. It was sold to Germans. Volvo belongs to Ford, this makes Volvo an American car company. Same with SAAB and Jaguar and Daewoo.
I think that we should first agree on what makes a domestic car. Should we consider Chevy Aveo a domestic or import? Its made in Korea by Daewoo, which is owned by GM. Does it make a difference if you buy a Mercedes ML350 which is made in Alabama or a Dodge RAM made in Mexico. They are both made by the same company. Why is Dodge RAM considered a domestic and Mercedes ML considered an import.
I wish somebody would define what this thread is about so we can talk about which domestics cars to buy.
You wrote: "That of course got a lot of press here.
The guy later claimed he never made any of those statements, and apologized profusely for the article."
That's an awfully long quote in that article for it never to have been said.
You wrote: "Believe it or not, we have good colleges here, we have a huge medical community and a lot of industry, both with the resulting gaggle of lawyers, accountants, etc."
No doubt. But I don't think many college-educated people aspire to working on an automotive industry assembly line.
...if we ever get into another scrap like World War II. Will there be enough industrial capacity to supply the war machine? How about the loss of vital skills like tool and die makers? Will future Americans even know how to make steel and if so, where will it be made if all our mills have long since been demolished and the scrap sent overseas to stamp into Hyundais? How will we import dies, and machine tools from a country we may be at war with? Who will make uniforms for our soldiers and sailors? How about their boots? Will anybody be left who has the skills to weave fabric, sew apparel, or make shoes or will they have long-since become Wal-Mart greeters and latte makers at Starbucks and died off? I will really be scared if our munitions manufacturers decide to move their operations overseas all in the name of that glorious false god known as profit.
I am surprised no-one guessed "you know - rental!"
It is true that even in the info age many car-buying decisions are still made on word of mouth, reputation of the brand, or at random. So there is no pat answer to the question posed in this thread.
But one thing that is still a big player at decision time is styling - the instant success of the 300 shows that I think. Look at how sales ratcheted up over the previous 300M and clones.
By comparison, Ford has relatively little styling flair, and GM has some. They could both work on this.
An emerging one is safety - the Koreans, Honda, and Chrysler all play their safety up in advertising and in many cases offer a high standard level of safety equipment. Ford and GM should pick either this or extending their warranties as a way to put a good foot forward without a major up-front investment on their part.
And whichever of those two they pick, they can probably exceed Toyota, the name everybody knows, without a lot of trouble (lots of Toyotas still lack standard ABS and supplemental airbags or curtains, their warranty is still only 3/36 B2B, 5/60 powertrain). They should then advertise that fact.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I will gladly pay more, even a lot more, for my jeans, home theatre systems, and cars if they were made here rather than see the United States degrade to an impoverished, violent, crime-ridden, drug-infested third-world toilet populated by the unemployed and underployed who are ruled over by a tiny elite who are themselves pawns of foreign masters.
Actually, Hyundai quality is no where near the top. There overall vehicle quality is still below industry average. You are right that they have improved over the years, but based on these same studies, so have some of the domestics.
Publically traded is publically traded. I'm a stockholder through my 401k so my purchases, or those of my 401k, get the same benefit as someone in Japan, Thailand, Canada or whereever. I make good money from the success of Toyota and Honda. Your point?
Your 2nd point is so far behind the times, I can only reply like they do in poker tournaments, 'Nice hand , sir.'
Biased? I am a shareholder. You betcha I'm biased.
Ha-Ha-HA Seriously though - I'm with you man! I think that everything that comes from China should be outlawed. I can make it without cheap jeans, camcords, and MP3 players. I hate gadgets. We have lost all our core values and are trying to fill the hole inside of us with more stuff. You can't take it with you where you're going. I wish that everyone was less envy and less materialistic and more thoughtful of their neighbor. All right I'm going out to buy a Christmas tree, oops I meant a Holiday tree (not to upset the ever growing Muslim community amongst us) on the other hand, if they deside to burn my car - I'd be glad and get a new one
Ya never know...they might buy up a bunch of land out west and start mass-growing the things! Sure they'd be grown in America, but would still be run by a Japanese company. They'd be cared for here, marketed here, sold here, and employ many people here, but they'd still be owned by a Japanese company. Hey, sounds kinda like a Japanese car, doesn't it? :P
You bet your sweet fido we are earning our pay....Working bell to bell, 6:00 am to 6-7:00pm, the roofers working rain or shine, the concrete and limerock trucks leaving their stations by 5:00am. Wheel loaders pushing the septics in place at breakneck speed, well drillers popping one well after another, there are no slackers down here........To say nothing of the Hurricane clearing or repair for street lights, signs, windows, pool screens, trees...etc infinitum...
I wouldn't begrudge anyone their fair wage doing manual labor down here...
Comments
At least it doen't cost a FREAKING fortune for the Canadians to obtain Higher education.
McGill University is 1/10 of the price any University here in US - this sure as hell makes it easier to go to school, without bankrupting yourself early in life.
As far as healthcare is concerned - at least they can afford the medication, whereas here the pharmaceutical robbers charge you an arm and a leg for everything.
try to have an operation here - it'll cost you your years worth of salary - can you afford it?
I'd take Canadian healthcare any day, especially if it will save me $3600 / year on payments.
Now, not to say that the "brain washed" part is not the fault of the domestic automakers. I totally agree that they lost pace with consumers. Now, though, it appears to me that they "got religion" and are trying to win back those who deserted them years ago. I know it's not going to be easy.
I also don't think Ford is a dinosaur. Their last batch of vehicles are very good and competitive with those in their segments.
Superior Japanese design and engineering made servicing of tvs unnecessary. Sony set the bar and high standard back in the early days of color tv. Bought a Sony Trintron 19" color tv in 79 and it was primary tv for many years. Used it occassionally over last 15 years and never had a problem with it. Gave it to charity last year and it was working fine.
Think there might be parallel here with superior engineering of Japanese with cars, tvs, cameras, etc. Perhaps we ought to wonder why they have better scientists and engineers and necessary management in certain areas than do we.
Recall that many years ago, an American company manufactured tvs that had low reliability. It was bought out by Japanese company and they turned around whole operation so that new brand of tvs, made at same physical plant building, had high quality/reliability
So dont get me started on how we don't work or earn our pay in America..... :surprise:
If the market prefers an identically priced import over a domestic, the import is clearly worth more. If I choose to buy the domestic car purely for patriotic reasons, I have paid over market value for the car.
Profit made in the US from foreign-based companies, i.e. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, go back to the "home" country to support their economy, not ours. The money made by dealerships and line workers are a fraction of the total dollars made. Also, the "American" suppliers, in many cases, are owned by Honda or Toyota, too.
Please explain to me how is it that when you buy a German owned companies' truck made in Mexico with a Mexican built Hemi that you 'Buy American'.
'91 Escort bought new. I bought because of cost (I get family plan pricing) and ignorance (it was my first car and I did zero research on alternatives). Trouble-free the first 100K miles, then a couple thousand dollars in repairs post 100K miles, then totaled by drunk at 150K miles. Had it 6 years. Very satisfied.
Mazda RX-7 I bought for fun. Terrible electrical & transmission problems. Had it a year and traded it in for:
'99 Cougar bought new. Only 2 door hatch I could find at the time I liked (other similar cars had trunks...not practical for me). I currently have this car at 120K miles. Needed 2 alternators, timing belt replaced & A/C compressor. Only pre-100K repair was $500 for alternator, so extended warranty would do me no good. I put about $3000 in the car over the past 7 years in repairs.
'01 Corolla - bought it in '03 for my new wife for $8500, sold it 2 years later for $7500 to private owner (dealer would only give me $6000 as trade-in. Zero problems for those two years. I knew more about cars when I bought it, and this was a very solid & reliable car.
'05 Freestyle - bought new in Feb'05 and now have 20K miles. Great car. Only one to fit my needs (size, cost, features). If I could have bought a Toyota that had the same features for the same price, I would have, but we're happy with the Freestyle.
Bottom line is that I first look for the car that meets my needs. If there were two pretty much identical cars, then I'd do the road test and see which interior I liked best. If either would work, then I'd compare quality to price. If it's going to cost me $5K more for the higher quality foreign car, then based on my experience I'd rather pocket the $5K and buy American. If the price were the same, then I'd go for the foreign one.
I have to admit the Corolla was really solid, but I knew that it was only a temporary car and we'd need something bigger in the next couple of year, so resale value was important. For my Cougar and Freestyle, I hope to keep them about 10 years (already 7 on the Cougar), so I'm not concerned with resale value. And even though I've put $3000 in my Cougar, I probably saved that much with the Ford family plan in comparison with any similar foreign car I would have bought at the time with the same features.
I'm not in the market for a car anytime soon, but when the Cougar finally goes, I'll first look to see what fits my needs, do some test drives, compare price & quality, and make my pick.
I think the key for American manufactures is to make their cars uniquie in some manner...something that the foreign companies don't make, or make it with more space, more/different features, etc and at a lower cost to counter the foreign quality advantage.
You’re killing me here!
You actually think that paying someone to dig a hole in the ground is worth $25/ hour
Why go to school then and waste all that time and money, let’s just all move to Florida and flip condos for a living. We are becoming a nation of servants.
Soon we’ll be serving free drinks to Indian and Asian engineers and businessman at the new casinos. It seems to me that our nation is turning away from innovation and leadership in most fields and turning towards instant gratification.
It’s not what you do anymore, it’s how much money you make. It’s disgusting to think that in the last 30 years we have lost all our core values, and now we have nothing but a flavor of the week dictated by the Mass media. It’s all about the bling-bling.
Let's flip question around. If you were a small businessman (person), perhaps you already are, would you do it to be a hero? Would you locate your business operations in a blighted area?
Back in 1972, my grandparents paid $700 for a new Zenith 25" console tv. Factoring for inflation, that's about $3200 today. So obviously, if something broke on the tv, you'd pay $50 or $75 or whatever to get it fixed. Even if the tv itself was worthless, you didn't want to have to blow $700 for a new one!
FWIW, I think that tv lasted until 1986, when the tube went out, and had never been serviced. My grandparents bought a new Zenith that had stereo and a remote (something that the other one didn't have). I think it was cable-ready, too. Anyway, by then it was down to around $500, which would be around $850 with inflation today.
Back in 2000, I bought a Sanyo 32" tv. It was on sale for $399, and came with a free VCR that I gave away as a Christmas gift. I bought a $100 5-year warranty on it that I never needed to use. Towards the end of that warranty, it started making a high-pitched noise that would come and go. Sometimes if you smacked it just right it would go away. One of my friends, who's knowledgeable about electronics, said it would probably cost $300-400 to fix. I never bothered with it because, well, the noise didn't bother me! And I didn't want to go through the effort of boxing up a 120 pound tv and taking it back to the store. Well, I also lost the warranty paperwork, and didn't feel like looking for it.
Over the summer, I bought a 32" Sharp tv for something like $249 or $269. It replaced an old 1981 or so RCA 25" console that someone gave me years ago, which still works fine. Main reason I got the tv was because I wanted something that would sit on a stand, and be up higher. That was a mixed blessing though, because now the dog notices it more, and if he sees a dog or horse on tv, he'll try to attack it! :confuse: God forbid TVLand ever runs another Lassie marathon, and forget watching any western, unless the dog gets put up.
I guess in a lot of ways cars are becoming more throwaday, just like tv's. Relatively cheap to buy, but expensive to fix when something breaks. Oh sure, a lot of those old cars had low base prices, because so much stuff was optional. My '57 DeSoto had something like a $3085 base price, but as equipped, was more like $3800. Factor in inflation (there are a ton of calculators on the net) and that's close to $26,000 today. Which could get you a pretty nice Accord or Camry V-6, or any number of other well-equipped cars, which will have a lot more in the way of technology and options than any 1957 car ever did. You definitely get a lot more for your money, but you pay dearly when it breaks out of warranty.
and worked for a huge company, and dealt with the most uneducated and slow union workers ever, that got $25/ hour. So don't assume anything, I know how the south works - " if you don't like my pace, wait till you see the next one"
Needless to say, I had to adjust my expectations a lot, as things progressed very slowly.
FYI, I earned pretty good southern wages :P
"If fact, they employ a fraction of the auto workers who lost their jobs because of the import increase in US market share."
Got anything to prove this because it's a pretty funny assertion...
Yes they will come, but it will be in small numbers and it will be the avid drivers. If the cars are perfect in everyway, they still wont attract the largest segment of the buying public that finds driving fearsome, an inconvenience or simply a 3 mi necessity.
The vehicles may be wonderful but after the initial excitement wears off the manufacturers and retail stores will be left scratching their heads wondering 'Where did everyone go? There was so much excitement last month/qtr/year now noone comes in anymore.' The small segment of 'Cuda, Sting Ray lovers just bought themselves out of the market.
The heart of the market is:
-The two-income 21-y.o. former high school sweethearts now with 2 kids and one on the way who need to get out his Dad's old truck into a family sedan that they can afford.
-The single school teacher who wants to reward herself for scrimping for 45 yrs with a nice step up to an Accord.
-The retiring couple who doesnt want to spend much on auto expenses when they visit their grandchildren all over the Midwest.
-The urban 22 y.o. musician/poet/social worker who has no idea of why anyone would want, a ?'Cuda?.
This buying public will never look at the specialty vehicles you mentioned.
The size of the country and the demographics now are much different than when these vehicles you mention were popular. Families had one car and the door to the future was 'wheels'. Now every family has 2-5 cars and wheels are way down the list of primary goals. Children are often 'given' a vehicle upon .. getting their Drivers License. Now a vehicle is just like having a bicycle back in the 50's and 60's; some were new, some were beat up and some were hand-me-downs. For the vast majority of the US market owning a vehicle is nothing to get excited about.
Feed this market with a bulletproof $20K vehicle that can be sold in 10 yrs for $3000 - $4000 that only needs oil and wear items during it's entire life. Then build 300K to 500K of these annually and it will be a winner. A Big 3 manufacturer cannot live on a 70K-80K unit specialty vehicle. Even without legacy costs and uncompetitive labor costs it's not enough volume.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You might speak of something you know about. The correct statement is:
'Our antiquated early-20th century integrated steel industry is but a shell of itself...'
The correct statement ends with:
'... because the vision of a few pioneering Americans revitalized the entire steelmaking processs throughout the world sounding the death knell for the dinosaurs.'
Come out of your priviledged gated community and get down in the trenches with the rest of America that is trying to make substantive changes.
I believe I saw these same words of yours in a decree by Ayatollah..... in Iran last week. Same speech writer?
One guy rings in "Um, Toyota?" Other lady "Mercury?" British lady "Buick?" Pontiac's advertising managers should have cried themselves to sleep last night.
'First of all,....'
Good. This is economics 101, first day of class too. The more efficient should gain competitive advantage. All is right with the world if this is working. Our economy has more output with less cost and effort. And you think there is a problem with this?
'Profit made in the US from foreign-based companies...' Uhhh goes to the shareholders.
Simple solution buy stock in the profit making companies dump stock in the loss makers. All are publicly traded here. To do otherwise is a foolish waste of resources..yours!
Also, the "American" suppliers, in many cases, are owned by Honda or Toyota, too.
You brought up this on the GM forum also and ignored that I told you that over 80% of all steel used in the transplants here was from US mills. Then you said that Toyota bought the parts suppliers that they use. OK, these were American companies using American workers which changed ownership. So what, they are still part of our economy. Where is the problem?
WAKE UP!!!! This is not the 1950's.
Only what I read when Toyota was evaluating the differences between the new RAV-4 plant in the American South versus the Canadian province of Ontario. Woodstock, Ontario won.
Here is an excerpt:
The plant will produce the RAV-4, dubbed by some as a "mini sport-utility vehicle" that Toyota currently makes only in Japan. It plans to build 100,000 vehicles annually.
The factory will cost $800 million to build, with the federal and provincial governments kicking in $125 million of that to help cover research, training and infrastructure costs.
Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.
He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.
"The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ontario," Fedchun said.
In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson.
"Most people don't think of our health-care system as being a competitive advantage," he said.
Full article can be found here:
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/050630/b0630102.html
I own Honda stock. I get dividends when they make money. I put that money in the good ole USA.
The home country only gets a small part of the pie through tax dollars. You want to bring money into the economy? Buy some foreign stock.
The guy later claimed he never made any of those statements, and apologized profusely for the article.
Believe it or not, we have good colleges here, we have a huge medical community and a lot of industry, both with the resulting gaggle of lawyers, accountants, etc.
Do you really think Honda and Mercedes are hiring illiterate workers? They are not. They have high standards, as far as manual labor goes. Additionally, they have a long list of college educated people waiting to get a manufacturing job there.
Maybe our lack of unions and people willing to work for a fair wage helps.
And I also said I did not think it was good for our economy to allow foreign-based companies to buy US companies. And I still don't.
Also, you work for Toyota, slightly biased, eh?!
Just because Chrysler used to be an American company does not make it American. It was sold to Germans. Volvo belongs to Ford, this makes Volvo an American car company. Same with SAAB and Jaguar and Daewoo.
I think that we should first agree on what makes a domestic car. Should we consider Chevy Aveo a domestic or import? Its made in Korea by Daewoo, which is owned by GM. Does it make a difference if you buy a Mercedes ML350 which is made in Alabama or a Dodge RAM made in Mexico. They are both made by the same company. Why is Dodge RAM considered a domestic and Mercedes ML considered an import.
I wish somebody would define what this thread is about so we can talk about which domestics cars to buy.
The guy later claimed he never made any of those statements, and apologized profusely for the article."
That's an awfully long quote in that article for it never to have been said.
You wrote: "Believe it or not, we have good colleges here, we have a huge medical community and a lot of industry, both with the resulting gaggle of lawyers, accountants, etc."
No doubt. But I don't think many college-educated people aspire to working on an automotive industry assembly line.
I am surprised no-one guessed "you know - rental!"
It is true that even in the info age many car-buying decisions are still made on word of mouth, reputation of the brand, or at random. So there is no pat answer to the question posed in this thread.
But one thing that is still a big player at decision time is styling - the instant success of the 300 shows that I think. Look at how sales ratcheted up over the previous 300M and clones.
By comparison, Ford has relatively little styling flair, and GM has some. They could both work on this.
An emerging one is safety - the Koreans, Honda, and Chrysler all play their safety up in advertising and in many cases offer a high standard level of safety equipment. Ford and GM should pick either this or extending their warranties as a way to put a good foot forward without a major up-front investment on their part.
And whichever of those two they pick, they can probably exceed Toyota, the name everybody knows, without a lot of trouble (lots of Toyotas still lack standard ABS and supplemental airbags or curtains, their warranty is still only 3/36 B2B, 5/60 powertrain). They should then advertise that fact.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Your 2nd point is so far behind the times, I can only reply like they do in poker tournaments, 'Nice hand , sir.'
Biased? I am a shareholder. You betcha I'm biased.
Welcome to the 21st Century, have a pleasant stay...
Seriously though - I'm with you man!
I think that everything that comes from China should be outlawed.
I can make it without cheap jeans, camcords, and MP3 players. I hate gadgets. We have lost all our core values
and are trying to fill the hole inside of us with more stuff. You can't take it with you where you're going.
I wish that everyone was less envy and less materialistic and more thoughtful of their neighbor.
All right I'm going out to buy a Christmas tree, oops I meant a Holiday tree (not to upset the ever growing Muslim community amongst us)
Yeah, Hell or the deindustrialized United States in ten years. They'll be about the same.
I guess I'll get a real tree. All the fake ones are now made in China.
I wouldn't begrudge anyone their fair wage doing manual labor down here...
Buy AMERICAN GROWN TREE ONLY!
None of that Canadian crap either