What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

lemmer

My wife had a Maxx as a rental car. She hated it. She said she would much rather drive a Corolla or Civic. She said it wasn't just because she found it so ugly, but that it drove like "an American car." To her that means cumbersome, slow to respond, and cheap feeling. She said the same thing after driving an Impala rental.

She doesn't care what "Car & Driver" says, or what I say for that matter. She drives a car and she just likes the feeling or doesn't. If she doesn't like it, she wouldn't drive it for free. I guess my point is, being less expensive than the competition doesn't help if people just don't like your cars.

carlisimo

I've heard from a lot of happy Maxx owners.

That's part of the answer; cars that no one else has an equivalent to. HHR too; there are compact hatches but no real wagons that size.

veliger

Which brings me to a separate point: the domestics HAVE to stop selling vast quantities of their overproduced models to rental fleets. It would be better for brand perception if they would just take them out behind the factory and burn them. Might be better for the bottom line too, since most fleet sales are made at a loss.

As a frequent traveler, I'd say the only mainstream (not luxury/niche) car company not selling large quantities to rental fleets is Honda. Toyota sells lots of vehicles (mostly crappy 4 cylinder Camries) to rental fleets. And I'd guess from my anecdotal observations, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Mazda sell far larger percentages of their vehicles to rental fleets than even GM and Ford, though Chrysler seems to be almost as bad as Hyundai, Mazda etc. Given their UAW contracts until 2007, I don't see why GM, Ford and Chrysler would cut down on their rental fleet business. Someone has to supply fleet cars, obviously Toyota, the perfect car company, sees some value in dumping a large number of Camries on the rental companies. :P

martian

of its interiors. I mean, cheap carpets and seats that wear out in 3-4 years won't make it. take the carpets. My 2000 SATURN L100 9otherwise an excellent car) has the carpet worn out under the gas pedal-something that should not happen. if GM hadn't gone so cheap, the carpet would have lasted. So in saving pennies, they have rendered a used car as looking extremely cheap. Nissan ans Toyota use much better grade carpeting-which is why a used car buyer gets a much better impression.This is also a point where the germans shine-they DO use much higher quality materials in their interiors-which makes them worth more as used cars.
Again, it is the GM "bean counter" obsession with nickel and dime items-that kill their resale value!

dpat

compact cars are a prefect example of what the problems of the big3 are. None of them have a particularly attractive offering, and this is where you draw in your new customers. (many of whom are young and never bought a domestic in the 80s or 90s - so they don't have those bad memories)

Let's start with Chrysler. The Neon. Nice when it came out. Now horribly outdated. Fred Flinstone might find it modern. Maybe. It appears Chrysler is planning to abandon this market segment. Good luck trying to convince people to buy your cars when you had to abandon the entry level segment because your vehicle was so horrible.

On to ford. The Focus. RECALLS!!! If the engineering was so shoddy that it set records for recalls, what gremlins are going to pop up 5-10 years down the line? I wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot pole. Rock bottom resale too.

To GM. The Cobalt. probably still to early to tell. Sales probably hindered by Cavalier horror stories. Impressive that the 05 model year didn't have a major recall. Even honda can't claim that on the 06 Civic. They may catch on if problems don't start popping up 2-3 years down the road. Will probably stem the tide of people leaving for Honda/Toyota, but unlikely to steal many sales away from Civic/Corolla.

The same problems are played out to different degrees in the midsize segment as well. Nobody buys a $30k+ car for their first car. And nobody buys a second car from the same manufacturer if their first one was junk.

To get new customers, and to woo back customers who were scared away in the 80s-90s, the big3 need to over-engineer their cars. They need a midsized that is better than the Accord/Camry. They need a compact that is better than the Civic/Corolla. Honda and Toyota aren't doing anything to drive people away, and even the massive employee discount specials did little except pull domestic sales forward. Even if they have to sell the cars at a loss for awhile, it'll pay off in the long run when the people buying compact and midsized cars now are trying to decide between a Lexus and a Cadillac 15 years later.

Finally, warranties. Honda and Toyota have excellent reputations for quality and can get away with a 3yr/36k warranty. The domestic manufacturers keep saying their quality has improved, but they need to put their money where their mouths are. With car loans often stretching to 5, even 6 years, people have 2-3 years in there where their car could fall apart and be worthless, leaving them stuck with a monthly payment and no car. People trust Hondas/Toyotas to not fall apart. They don't trust the big3. Put a 5yr/60k full warranty on the cars and watch sales take off.

Extended warranties are doing wonders in erasing the negative impression of Korean quality.

lemmer

Another problem is using the worst cars for rentals. A lot of us only have first hand experience with American cars through rentals. People take one ride in a Taurus, Impala or Sebring and think that there is no reason to hit the domestic lots next time they are in the market.

dpat

Absolutely. And, the Taurus/Impala/Sebring is probably a stripper with the base engine and no options, further degrading people's impression of the big3.

And then there's the hit on resale value when those cheap rentals hit the market.

andre1969

improved the feel and response of its electric steering? I drove an '04 around on a closed test course, and it just felt plodding and slow to respond. I probably could've taken my New Yorker through the course quicker! :P Other than that, it was a competent car. Just didn't do anything for me.

As for rental cars, I don't have much experience with them as I've only had four in my life. Two of them actually gave me a new respect for the car. The first was a '91 Civic, that opened my eyes to the fact that small doesn't equal crap. The second was a '99 Alero coupe with the quad-4, which seemed like a valiant effort on GM's part, at the time. The other two rentals were a '92 Grand Am, which was a major disapointment, and an '01 Malibu, which was just kind of "there".

lemko

What?!?!? I've NEVER had a seat or carpet wear out in a GM car, even if it was over 20 years-old let alone a mere 3-5. Even the "beater" '88 Park Avenue I just bought still has its seats and carpet intact. My girlfriend actually prefers the plush seats of the Park Ave to the leather in my other cars. She wonders why nobody makes seats like them anymore. She finds them very comfortable.

If you show the car a little TLC, those seats and carpets will last forever. I vacuum and clean the interiors of my cars regularly. I shake out the mats every time I use the cars. That dirt acts as an abrasive that destroys carpet fibers.

I can't stand people saying stuff like, "That @$%! Chevy was a piece of crap! I'm buying a Honda," when they change the oil once every ice age, drive like they're a NYC cab driver in the Indy 500, and the interior looks like a Superfund site. Then they buy the Honda, repeat the same process, the car breaks, and they casually excuse it as a fluke.

dino001

So we have vast anti-GM consumer conspiracy, Lemko? Is it right wing or left wing? Surely looks like it. I'm so glad you called it, otherwise I would still believ all those lies told to me repeatedly by almost everyone I know...

altair4

For what it is worth, I find that many Big 3 cars are poor in the ergonomics department. Control stalks that are too far from the wheel (the idea, guys, is to be able to activate the stalk without removing your hand from the wheel), switchgear that feels like it will break with the firt usage (a GM favorite), poor interior lighting, etc.

Foreign manufacturers seem to spend more time making sure that the car fits an actual human. They spend time to make sure that the buttons and dials have a positive tactile feel. The fit and finish of the interior panels is usually higher. The plastic doesn't look, well, so plasticky.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing the new Ford products to see how they measure up. I hope I'm not disappointed.

lemko

No conspiracy. I just don't believe GM cars are as bad as too many say when it so contrary to my experience. I've been driving for 25 years and GM is often the first and last place I go to do my car shopping. Either I have incredibly good luck with cars or I'm living in a parallel universe. I also don't think foreign cars are all that. I've been in coworker's Camries and Accords and see little difference between them and a Chevrolet Impala. If anything stands out about them it's some bizarre styling elements.

lemko

I don't know what it is, but the downsized 1977 generation full-size GM B and C-body cars fit me perfectly. It's almost as if the cars were tailored for me.

andre1969

with worn out carpeting and seats, but they were all old enough that I'd attribute it to age rather than inferior materials. I'd say the most common problem is those 1-piece felt headliners. Of the cars I've had, I've seen them start to pull loose as soon as they were around 7 years old, or hold on for 15 years or more. Eventually they'll let go, though.

And for some reason, the only cars I've ever had with cracked dashboard padding have been Chevies. My '80 Malibu, '86 Monte, and '85 Silverado were all cracked to hell. But then cars like my '82 Cutlass Supreme, '85 LeSabre, '89 Gran Fury, '79 NYer, and '79 Newport all used a nicer, almost leathery type of material that just holds up better. Padded dashes in cars like my '67 Catalina, '69 Bonneville, '68 and '69 Darts, and '76 LeMans are the types that generally seem prone to cracking (although something about that Bonneville seemed different) but I was lucky that none of them cracked. Actually, the '69 Dart did have one crack on the passenger side. Depending on how far back the seat on that side was adjusted, the headrest could smack the edge of the dash.

As for carpeting, my '80 Malibu had an ill-fitting carpet that would always pull loose from under the door sill plate. My '76 LeMans has carpeting that doesn't pull loose, but it was cut too short in the back, so there's a little gap where you can see the padding between the edge of the carpet and where it should tuck up under the trim.

The only GM car I've had with a torn seat is my '76 LeMans, which is odd because the interior actually looks like it was lovingly maintained otherwise. I think sometimes a wallet chain, belt, or other piece of clothing will catch on the stitching and pull something loose. And once a tear starts, it doesn't take long for it to spread like wildfire!

Now my '67 Catalina has the bottom cushion insert replaced on the driver's side, so it DID tear at one point. But when we're talking about cars that are 20-30 years and older, something's gotta give eventually!

andre1969

can be incredibly hit or miss. There are two factors at play here...not just how the interior of the car is laid out, but also how the driver is built. There is no one car that will fit everyone to a tee.

A good example of poor ergonomics from a foreign car is the Toyota Corolla. Legroom on the car is mediocre, but the distance from the steering wheel is great for a taller driver. I'm 6'3", and for me the steering wheel is in just the right position, but the pedals are too close. With many shorter drivers, when they get the seat positioned to where they can reach the wheel, then the pedals are too close for them as well. And if Toyota figured out a way to make the seat go further back for a taller driver like me, then I wouldn't be able to reach the steering wheel!

Also, a lot of cars today might have nice contouring in the seats to keep you planted in hard cornering, but the seats themselves just aren't that comfortable. Most modern cars end up giving me a bit of a back/butt and/or leg ache after about a half hour.

dino001

Here is the problem: these are just your believes and your taste. While you are entitled to it, moreover it might be even factual (I don't believe it is, but I do not matter as a single individual), unfortunately most of the people believe to the contrary. They may be wrong, but that's what they believe. A blitz campaign of ads with cars in nice lighting or screaming "red tags", waving American Flag, appealing to your patriotism or what have you, will not likely change it. It took GM/Ford/Chrysler 30 years to squander their market position (plus 30 years of Honda/Toyota efforts to build theirs), it will take more to rebuild it with twice as much effort.

At this moment it is not enough to be as good (I still do not think they are, but that's just my opionion), or even somewhat better. It will take years of patient development, quality strides. And the other guys are not likely to "cooperate" by making their cars lousy pieces of garbage. So the strides have to be even longer and bigger. And sorry, but Chinese-made OHV with 4-sp auto will not cut it, even if YOU believe it is good enough (or superior). Most people don't, and that counts. Like
21-speed vs. 30-speed bicycles, or 1.2 MHZ AMD vs 2.0 MHz Intel.

PS. engine and tranny are just examples, I do not want to start discussion here. So, please don't, it's not the point.

jlawrence01

And then there's the hit on resale value when those cheap rentals hit the market.

A lot of the rental (and corporate) fleets are sending their vehicles to reconditioners who are adding aftermarket leather and other accessories to make the vehicels more attractive to consumers (and gettign higher returns in the process).

Rental car agencies (and corporate fleets) ALWAYS want the base engine because their customers are unlikely to pay more for an upgraded ride.

dino001

can be incredibly hit or miss. There are two factors at play here...not just how the interior of the car is laid out, but also how the driver is built. There is no one car that will fit everyone to a tee.

Ditto, I would add from myself that most domestics cars give me impression that no one with decision power asctually drove them from more than 3 laps around the track. Similar - quality of interior. I swear the moment I look inside I hear "I, Big Three executive, am shauffered in a limo, so is my wife, my daughter got a new Cadillac, I don't care what's inside this Impala/Cobalt/whatever".

I think the best way would be to order those guys to drive "most popular" configurations of those cars for at least couple of months and then give them a chance to change their equipment decision.

altair4

True, true. In most Japanese cars, being on the tall side, I always wished the seat bottom had one more "click" of rear travel than it actually had.

But I was really talking about the way the car feels. Some cars "feel" richer than they actually are on the inside. VW's are like that, IMO. The way controls work, the way they feel when turned or pressed, are like they came out of a more expensive car. I've been in more expensive domestic cars that feel much cheaper than they are. It won't take a manufacturer much to address that. The GM turn signal switch is one that comes to mind.

stmss

The way controls work, the way they feel when turned or pressed, are like they came out of a more expensive car. I've been in more expensive domestic cars that feel much cheaper than they are.

This is really a key point as this is where the driver spends his time. My new Freestyle Limited suffers a bit from this, but given the rest of the package decided to put up with it. I think Ford is getting better but the interior 'feel' is not up to snuff with my Volvo or Saab. I remember a few years ago with Lincoln introduced the LS to compete with the euro imports. I sat in it, looked around, and commented to the dealer that 'they (Ford) just don't get it'.

drewba

You nailed it in my opinion. Everything about the interiors of most domestic automobiles that I've been in look and feel inferior to comparable imports. This includes the quality of the materials, the ergonomics and the appearance. VW does do a very good job of quality interiors at their price point.

In addition, domestic cars face a major public perception problem. If the Big3 want to turnaround their fortunes, they need to be better than the competitors offerings, not almost as good and maybe not even as good.

tom71

You make many good points which I agree with. About the
big 3 compact cars. I'm in the market for a new car. One car
I was considering is the Chevy Cobalt. I visited 3 chevy dealers. They only had the 2 or 4 door with the base engine, or the 2 door 205 hp engine (which is real fun to drive).
The Cobalt added a third mid level 171 hp engine, which is
being offered in the 4 door. But alas, these cars not on
dealer lots! The seat fabrics in the cobalt are on the cheap. I'd get the leather seats instead. So I can't even
sit in and test a 4 door SS cobalt. Why didn't chevy
put the 205 hp turbo engine in the 4 door!

Despite Cavalier horror stories, I was suprised that the
Cavalier was Chevy's best selling car in their stable!
This could be because of rental fleet sales also.

I could be mistaken, but I thought the Ford Focus cars
by 2005 were mostly reliable. Funny, there higher performance Focus ZX4 ST 151 hp model is also scarce.
I guess it hasn't been selling. Now Ford I hear is bringing
back the SVT Focus for 2007. That was a fun car.

graphicguy

I've owned many new cars....on the American front, it's been mostly GMs, but some Fords and one Chrysler product (probably doesn't count since it was a well used early '70s Charger). Plus, I rent at least, 3 cars a month for work....everything from Malibus, to GPs, to Mazdas, to Lincolns, to Caddys, to Camries, to Hyundais, to even one Accord.

In general, the GM cars had plenty of evidence of cost cutting. I attribute that to their corporate "bean counter" mentality. I do believe the recent examples of build quality have improved dramatically (as have Chrysler's).

Even with the abuse rental cars receive, the Toyotas do seem to hold up better than the GMs and Fords I've rented (with the possible exception of Lincolns, which seem to be built like tanks, regardless of the rental abuse).

Things like carpet, minor controls, headliners and seat fabrics seem to be of lower quality in the American offerings than in the Toyotas, Hondas and luxury American marks.

Even the paint seems better on Japanese marks over American marks.

Not meant as a flame as I can overlook some of those foibles if I really like the other things the car offers.

dpat

I had a similar experience looking for a cobalt to try out while I was shopping last summer. Dealers had stripped base models and fully loaded top line models. (The SS wasn't out yet) Nothing in between. The cobalt looks like a promising car, if they can keep it trouble free and refresh/redesign it every 4-5 years like honda & toyota do with their cars. I am very impressed that it has gone an entire year without a major recall, a rare feat for any car these days.

Ford has fixed the problems that appear in the first or second year, but I'd be worried about things breaking 4-5 years down the road. To me, the large number of recalls early in the model's life is an indication that it was poorly designed and engineered. I wouldn't even consider one until they do a comprehensive redesign.

heejoman

Only American company car I would buy is Buick. I thought Buick Regal had a very responsive engine. I guess now its the LaCrosse.

I do like the look of the Buick Lucerne. Have you seen the commerical for it? Very nice.

I thought about buying it then saw that small print with price. Starts at $26,900. Then it said $38,900 as shown.

$38,000K for Buick? Uh, I like the looks but there's no way it can compare to Toyota Avalon as far as reliability, and holding its value. Not to mention some Japanese luxury brand and BMW 5 series (if you consider 4 year 50K free maintenance).

If that $38,900 Lucerne was selling for $26,900, the Buick for me for sure.

splatsterhound

Suggest you go look at the Avalon boards... And check out CR too. Avalon not holding up so well initially.

gtee

To me the problem with American cars is the constant cost cutting. That is what you hear all of the time from Ford, Chrysler and GM. I think that they cut costs too much. Many quality problems were related to cost cutting. Ford 3.8l engine head gasket problems come to mind.

Take a look at the basic things in a car like the tires that come standard on a car. I was at a Ford dealer and I looked at Ford F150. Most of them were equipped with some KUMHO tires. When you go to a Honda dealer and look at Honda cars, most come with Michelin tires. Even something as simple as the bolts in the engine compartment. My mother's Ford CV has rust on most of the bolts after one winter. This is because Ford uses cheap bolts which are not galvanized. They save $10 per car, but it looks bad. Many steel brackets are made from oiled steel instead of galvanized steel. The only way to reduce price of most steel parts is to make them thinner or out of cheaper steel. This is all a result of cost cutting and putting endless pressure on suppliers to cut costs.

This cost cutting results in cars that don't hold their value. This results in premature parts failures. This results in unhappy customers who say "I will never buy this car again." These customers switch to Japanies cars out of sheer frustration with American cars.

The way I see it, American car companies can only compete on style. I don't think that Big 2 can ever build cars as good as Japanies simply because of their huge overhead. Instead of buying better quality carpet for cars, Big 2 spend it on job banks. Instead of buying better tires, bolts, paint, fabrics etc., they have to pay for health care. Look GM stated that it spend $1500 per car on health care. $1500 buys a lot of better parts for a car.

dhamilton

It seems that there are a lot of issues facing the big three. I certainly in my opinion don't put it all on the unions, however there does seem to be some changes needed.
As an auto enthusiast all my life, I grew up wanting a mustang with a v8 so bad I could taste it. As necessity intervened along with good ol mister practical I bought Acuras. I'm now at 35 starting to understand why people buy German cars. There is certainly nothing like them for the driving enthusiast such as myself.
It seems to me that GM will have to take some responsability for they're actions. They used to own a much bigger share of the market than they do now. The unions didn't buy this up. They lost it because they put out an inferior product. Give the American people some credit after all. When they make a car as reliable as the Japanese, or as fun to drive as the Germans. then I believe thing's will turn around. Selling cars at a loss during the employee pricing sale was a sure sign of how lunatics can run major company in to the ground. The unions didn't fix the prices, or make a bad business decision with the whole Fiat disaster.
I think Ford and obviously Chrysler has the best chance of turning around. Thank's to owning Jaguar, and Land Rover Ford's interiors are better than ever. Dodge is hitting home run after home run with there muscle car rebirths. GM should seriously consider dropping the car segment until it can get it's stuff together. The Corvette is the only desirable car in the bunch.{according to sales charts} The big truck, and suv market is they're money maker. Closing some plants won't right the ship. You must build a product that people believe in, and by the way, selling it for a profit is a big plus. Just my 2 cents....

bikeman3

Im 54 years old and ive owned a lot of cars, the majority of them from GM. US cars rust more, have bad brakes cheap switchgear and are overpriced. Also when you have to replace brake pads the rotors need replaced as well, adding more expense. resale value is awful and the cars usually cost more to insure. I took a chance on a ford focus in 2000, not a bad car to drive but it had 15 recalls and the brakes were the most expensive Ive ever replaced. The car was totaled in an accident. I went straight to Toyota got a good deal. Great interest rate
and no problems and extra expenses. US auto makers can make quality products, Toyota after all learned from them
and no one has a monopoly on quality....

fljoslin

As you have observed, the $39K Buick is probably worth about $27K. What will happen some of the time is that GM will hoot and holler and say that you are saving $12K and sell you the car for about what it is worth. However, have you really saved anything? How would you feel if you did pay $39K for the car and the next month is was available for almost 33% less? This is a big part of the problem the US automakers have. I recently paid MSRP for a Honda Odyssey. That was what it is worth because Honda will not sell it for much less.

jimlockey

Safety, quality and diesel engines or just go to Europe and drive some of their cars. That is what I want.

garandman

I run a small business and buy more cars and light trucks than most people. Specifically, we've purchased four MY 05 and 06 vehicles:

05 Honda Accord - built in US, 70% US parts content
05 Nissan Quest - built in US, significant US content but don't remember the #.
05 Chevrolet Express van - not even sure if it was made in US
06 Subaru - made in GM owned factory in Indiana

Ford has several vehicles that appeal to us and our 95 Ford Econoline has given good service.

But we did not buy any Fords because of their terrible relations with their supply chain. I worked for a Ford OEM provider years ago and still have many friends in the industry. How in the world can you expect top qulity from people you beat over the head? The many recalls on high profile launches only proves what a mess they've created.

If they have to hit bottom before they learn the lesson - and it appears they do - so be it. Ditto with their dealers.

fljoslin

Selling cars at a loss during the employee pricing sale was a sure sign of how lunatics can run major company in to the ground. The unions didn't fix the prices, or make a bad business decision with the whole Fiat disaster.

I agree that it is not all because of the Unions, but why were they selling at a loss? Because their costs were higher than the selling price. What is the biggest contributor to the cost? Labor. I believe that with benefits the average union employee costs GM about $75/hour. If you bring that cost down you can sell the vehicles for the same price or lower and still make money. GM (+ Ford + Chrysler) have many other issues. Why were none of them on board with early development of hybrids. How much engineering skill does it take to just keep making bigger more powerful trucks and SUV's? Why aren't there any trucks/SUV's with diesel engines designed towards fuel economy instead of just brute towing power? You could probably get a 1/2 ton truck set up right getting close to 30 mpg with diesel. I also believe that people realize that vehicles cost more now than ever and are a real investment and want to make the best investment that they can. More and more this is not an American vehicle.

bobw3

I have a Freestyle SE and I know what you mean on the "feel" of the interior. I only paid $24K and that was with the tri-level climate, side airbags, security, etc., so for the price I was satisfied. But I can see if you buy the Limited and pay $30K and for the most part the interior is the same as in my SE version. Same for me in that the other features (space, price, handling, mpg, etc) outweight the interior "feel" not being on par with the foreign competition.

john500

I've been getting nickeled and dimed on a 2003 Honda Civic lately. The warranty expires soon so I'll probably dump it for something else, probably a Ford or GM. The damage record so far for the Honda was better than a Saturn that I had owned and worse than a Chevy that I had owned. Based on hearsay, I suspect that Japanese cars made in Japan and Japanese cars made in the early 90's were more reliable than US cars. However, most foreign cars sold in the US are now made here. Thus, the same cheap scrounging engineers that specify low-grade parts and the same skilled labor pool make both domestic and "imported" cars now. After my scientific (to myself anyway) comparison of a Saturn to a Honda (ie identical driving patterns on both cars-hard), I'm now convinced they are all the same.

lemko

Wow! Somebody finally gets it! They ARE all the same! The differences are so small, it's hardly noticeable.

gtee

You should check out the Odysses thread here at Edmunds. Most people pay about invoice for Odyssey. You can get a good deal on just about any car including Honda. The thing is that the deal depends on the dealer, not on Honda Motors. You will never see a Honda offering $12K off the price of a car. The most you can get is $3k.

lemmer

Assuming this is true, why do you think people buy so many foreign cars?

By the way, the differences are pretty huge to me.

dhanley

Hm--i don't know about that--but i do think that reliability of most cars is inside the expected error margin.

j3cubfan

I went and looked at the 06 Dodge Charger the other day, the one with the HEMI that supposed to drop to 4 cylinders during highway driving. It was nice looking car and seem to fit the bill. I am 38 and have a wife with two kids, so why not have a car with a little attitude as well as something that is functional right? Well I got around to looking at the sticker. $38,000!?! for the Charger R/T. Come on!! This quickly put a stop to any notion of buying one. Then I looked at the Honda Accord EX. $28,000... It would seem to me that you get alot more for your money with the Accord then you would the Charger. Granted the Charger is new and has an aggressive stance to it, but at the end of the day, what going to get me from point A to B the most economical and efficient way...

1487

People who vouch for imports are typically long on opinions, but short on facts. The fact of the matter is that the quality of all the Big 3 is way up in the last 10-15 years. The whole notion that american cars wont last more than 40K miles is old and tired. I can tell by reading some of the comments here than many of you havent bothered to look at any Big 3 vehicles in the last 3 or 4 years. The stuff about build quality and materials is all old news. Get over it and move on. I really suggest that some of you sit in cars like the 500, Impala, Lacrosse, Lucerne, Explorer, Torrent, STS and GTO and then see if your opinions dont change.

Imports cost cut left and right. One of the biggest way they cost cut is to minimize the number of ways a car can be built. Honda is the master of this. There are very few stand alone options on Hondas and thus you cant get a combination like cloth seats and a sunroof and this is done to speed up manufacturing. Nissans skimp on materials, cars like the TSX and TL dont offer split folding seats. Many imports lack things like trip computers, map pockets behind the seats, power passenger seats that offer more than 4 ways of adjustment, dual sun visors for for each front passenger, etc. Most midsize and low end imports come with cheap, skinny tires that are designed to be quiet but offer no grip. The list goes on. Besides material quality there is also the issue of interior design. Look at the design of the new rav4, maxima, '06 civic, Sienna or any mitsubishi and then look at comparable american cars. The materials may be fine but the overall designs are awkward and generally odd looking. There is no style, no design flow and no beauty in those designs. They arent luxurious looking, they arent particularly ergonomic and they could've been done much better.

Another argument often made is that Hondas/Toyotas/Nissans are american cars based on content and factory location. Fine I will accept that, but I would like to know how American built camrys built by americans with parts and materials from America can be considered great but an Impala or 500 meeting those same criteria would be "Big 3 junk". What import lovers fail to realize is that in many cases the same suppliers are providing components for Chevy and Toyota and Honda and anyone else who wants to buy. I doubt they sell Toyota the "reliable" stuff and reserve the reject parts for the Big 3.

The only thing Japanese imports are better at is holding their value. They aren't better in terms of syling, performance, feature content or innovation.

fljoslin

I just purchased a 2006 Honda Odyssey EX-L, leather and variable cylinder management. I would have preferred to have purchased a Chrysler Town and Country. The real price difference for similarly equipped vans was negligible. The Honda has features and handling that I wanted which are just not available on the Chrysler and a much better resale value. I have a 1999 Dodge Intrepid ES which has been great since new and my wife has a 2005 Pacifica which she likes.
I believe that with the ever increasing cost of automobiles, the resale value will become more and more important. Low domestic resale is primarily affected by unrealistic MSRP's with corresponding high discounts and by low cost fleet sales. I looked into trading my Intrepid in when it was two years old with 20,000 miles on it. I was offered $14,000 below what I paid at 40% of the value. I would have had to have given them $3500 just to take my car away. This car was in perfect shape with brand new Michelin tires and had synthetic oil since new. Had I been forced to make that trade I would have been upset at the domestic automakers and myself for not purchasing a vehicle with better resale value.
The only thing Japanese imports are better at is holding their value. They aren't better in terms of styling, performance, feature content or innovation.
I do think that they are more innovative. They are the ones pushing Hybrid technology and typically equivalent Japaneese cars get better mileage than domestic cars.

budman3

we've had the Accord EX for a few months now. Still love it. Yes, there's a million of them out there, but the car works for us. We traded in our junk Saturn. I never thought I would trade in a car, but I couldn't wait to get rid of it.
I've been reading some replies here, but the big 3 are all having a hard time. I don't care what's happened the last few years.
One reply said that it costs the car company $75/hour per employee, yikes! For someone to install a windshield on an assembly line?
All I know is that I'll drive my Honda for 150k miles, change the oil and give it to my kid.

lilengineerboy

My experience has been the opposite. My US made Contour had no rust when I sold it, whereas one of my Hondas (Japanese made Civic) was becoming a rust bucket, although my US made Accord has been okay.
Replacing the brakes on the Accord was also the most challenging, expensive brake jobs I have ever required. The Contour's front brakes took about 25 minutes, performed twice in 120,000 including weekend track events.

lilengineerboy

I would say I am an a-typical consumer. I don't see myself in the mainstream of the car buying public, but I think a lot of people on this forum are auto enthusiast which makes them slightly a-typical as well. My needs may be similar to a mass market: I need something that will make the 8-10 mile commute to work and back, get reasonable fuel economy, not financially kill me to buy or maintain, have enough leg room for kids in the back. However, I also need something that is not so dull and boring that I fall asleep on my way to work and hit the center barrier and kill myself. It has to be a manual transmission. Not a wow-I-remember-when-I-was-young or I-wanna-be-a-boy-racer-today automatic, but something with a real clutch pedal. Traffic is light on my commute, I actually enjoy driving, let me drive. Give me something that makes me feel involved with the driving experience instead of trying to isolate me from it. This doesn't mean I want to get out of the car after 10 minutes with a backache, it means I want to drive the car.
I also have no issues with any manufacturer. I have had domestic cars made in the US, made in Mexico, and Japanese cars made in Japan and the US. While certain ones have had more challenges than others (not the ones you might think), I don't think it was a bad enough experience to deter me from buying another car by that manufacturer. I maintain cars well, and I have been rewarded by good service. They just need to make something that interests me.

j3cubfan

In 2000, I decided to buy a Full Size Dodge Ram pick-up. I always wanted a V8 and got one. I took a manual 5spd and I must say, its been the best vehicle that I've ever owned. Before that, I had 1993 Nissan Pathfinder which suffered from serious electrical problems.
The Dodge Truck is one of the most stable vehicles on the road. I remember my first experience with slush and snow on the interstate. I thought that this thing was going to be all over the road because the Pathfinder was. Not the case at all. I have to agree, the US automakers are making strides and within a few years, the playing field will just about be level.

So in essence, what would it take. How about incorporating the technology that you see in the Toyota Prius and putting that in something like a Dodge Charger or an Impala. I certainly think it do-able.

giantkiller

Are you saying these as a matter of opinion or fact. We can have a long discussion you just tell me that what you said are facts and I'll be happy to answer you point by point. You just be ready with facts and supporting documents because I dont go for "it feels" or "it looks" stuff.

kdhspyder

Your essay is accurate with a few comments.

Build quality is way up in the last 15 yrs at the Big 3. I was a steel supplier to all 3 directly and indirectly back in the late 80's/90's and that's all they spoke about.
( When a domestic mill fell down in quality once on a GM new launch the stamping plant FLEW hundreds of tons of steel over from Europe to make up the deficiency. The US steel mill had to pay all costs and losses ). That being said the others have not stood still and the gap still is the same in the bread and butter lines. ( Georgetown KY has 3 - THREE - slots for off-spec vehicles ). No the imports are not perfect and all have 1st yr woes like all makers. Honda tranny's - Avalon annoying nits.

The imports as you say has pretty basic interiors as opposed to nicer styling on the BIG 3. This is intentional and I think this is a big reason the Big 3 are failing in the market in high volume autos. IMO they gave the basic transportation market to the imports 20 yrs ago in exchange for the truck/SUV market. Now they are trying to get some of it back with products that are too upscale frankly for the usage. In addition to the interiors they continue to offer outdated V6's often in place of the the more efficient 4c's requested by the market. These 4c are basic and nearly bulletproof for what they are intended to do. Noone is going to take a 4c LE Camry onto Charlotte Motor Speedway. But it will cruise dead silently on I95 from NY to Miami at 75mph with no effort and get 30+ mpg all the way.

Your comment on the factories and parts suppliers here is right on. There is no ON/OFF switch for suppliers quality depending on the customer. Better knowledge and use of SPC at HonYota may affect quality though.

The only thing Japanese imports are better at is holding their value. They aren't better in terms of syling, performance, feature content or innovation.

This is the main problem the Big 3 have IMO. I see it every day and it leads to lots of misperceptions. Why do the imports hold their value more. As a rule they dont last significantly longer than the newer domestics. With good care all should last 12-15 yrs.

But buy a GM anything within the last 3 yrs and try to trade it on anything and you'll find that the value has plummetted. Why? Is the vehicle made poorly? Not really, but GM's ever-escalating panic sales drives down the prices of all new vehicles and thereby every other recently purchased vehicle. Ford is the same. You cannot buy a new domestic vehicle cheap enough initially in order to trade it within 4 yrs. God forbid a buyer is convinced to rollover his negative equity onto a new vehicle with the use of flimflam rebates and now you are paying for two trade-in-deficient vehicles.

The perception is that these must be horrible vehicles because noone will buy them at any price in trade. OTOH Honda's tend to hold their values the best of all vehicles. They have little or no incentives. Discounts yes, to get a deal consumated, but no 'We-have-a-damaged-company-rebate-program'.

I lay the blame for what appears to be a massive quality disparity squarely on the shoulders of the top marketing and sales managers. Why did noone in Marketing see that there were well over 100000 buyers a year for a Prius-like vehicle? At full sticker!! Was someone asleep at the switch when Lexus brought out a $45000 station wagon at 100000 units a year? 10 yrs down the road yes. Odessey minivan vs GM's ??? or the dead-in-the-water Ford offering?

savanna

I agree that it is not all because of the Unions, but why were they selling at a loss? Because their costs were higher than the selling price. What is the biggest contributor to the cost? Labor. I believe that with benefits the average union employee costs GM about $75/hour.

I'd like to know how you conclude that the biggest contributor to cost is labor. Let's take your figure of $75 an hour for labor cost. Do you know how many person hours are involved in the assembly of a car? According to the Harbour report, it's 34.33 for GM. In the Ontario plant it's under 18 if I remember. So if we take 34.33 times $75 that yields $2,572. Not the biggest cost by any means.

juswheels

I recently purchased a new Chevy Maxx. Before buying I test drove the Japan twins, along with Hyundai and Mitsubishi. The Honda and Toyota drove just fine but after the test drive I found myself asking the question, "What was so special about that". The Chevy drove just as well, if not a little better and was a couple thousand less. The Chevy also had more equipment and with the hatch, super utility. The Hyundai was a no brainer, spongy brakes and considerable body roll in the corners. While the Mitsu drove well enough, to have it equipped the same as the Chevy also cost thousands more. I made my choice based on what I saw and felt in the test drives. That was 8,500 miles ago and the Chevy consistently gets 32 to 33 MPG on the highway and so far, not a single problem or complaint.

True, the resale on the Chevy won't match the Honda or Toyota but will hold it's own against the Mitsu. For me, resale isn't that important, I buy every 4 to 5 years but also put about 100,000 miles on the car in that same time.

Honestly don't know why people don't come back to US brands because as others have stated, the quality is about the same. 4 or 5 comparison test drives will show you that US cars offer an outstanding value but admittedly, some models are overpriced. Add that to the undeniable fact that the "Big 3" obviously put too many eggs in the SUV basket and you then have an expensive problem.