Most of the post I just read have to be from people that hate GM just because they have nothing better to do. This car is junk, that car is junk, my 70s GM car had xx number of problems, Toyota/Honda's never have problems, etc. Sorry, but that is nothing but BS. The latest statistics show GM is right up there in build quality and initial reliablity. Long term reliablity has always been good at GM, although there were certainly problems with squeaks, rattles, etc. from the not so good build quality of years ago. And yet, every foreign car (Honda's especially) I have been in of over a few years old has stuff falling apart both on the outside and inside. It is almost like people have been brainwashed into believing problems on foreign cars are not actually problems.
Why do people not buy American cars? Well for one, if they look at forums like this they would pretty much read that American cars are still junk, despite the fact that most of these posts are nothing but BS. And another, if they read any car magazine American cars are always rated last. Sometimes they deserve it, most of the time I believe it is bias. You can have a BMW break down in some comparison yet still take first place. But the reviewer does not like the "feel" of something in an American car so it automatically gets last place. Or, since I own one, how about the GTO (yes I know not a true American car)? As a Holden/Vauxhaull - it is praised around the world and compared favorably to the BMW M5 (old one of course) and various Mercedes. Yet, slap a Pontiac badge on it and all of a sudden it is derided in the automotive press and cannot win a review against even a Mustang or Charger. Yeh, there is no bias :mad:
Thank God for you sensai. Without your "unbiased" post above, I might still be poised to by a import. I sure am thankful you came along and pulled the wool off of my head. By the way, who in the hell put the GTO-Holden in the same class as the M5? Sorry about my post, but I was bored so I thought I'd hammer GM for a while.... :shades:
I have a bias against GM because I learned to drive on a 1988 Chevy Blazer, and it was a total sled. It would cruise to 30MPH WITHOUT being put into 1st gear! It was the sorriest sumb^&*h I've ever driven!
Maybe only to be ussurped by the 1994 Chevy Balzer (with the legendary "Driver Control System!). Wanna see something scarier than "The Blair Witch Project"? Watch the crash tests of that piece of garbage! While you're at it, do the same with Chevy venture or Pontiac Montana.
And I STILL haven't forgiven ANYONE at GM for making the Cimmoron!! That level of forgiveness is just not in my heart.
BTW, they have tests and surveys now that show the long-term reliability of GM cars and trucks, and while Caddy and Buick are good (Mostly because of the low volume of cars produced and the 7-8 years between redesigns), Chevys and Pontiacs fairly reek, somewhere between mediocrity and true wretchedness.
Ford is no better, with no one at the helm since the Godfather, Henry Ford.
Ford Festiva?
How many Billions did they lose on the Ford Contour?
Forgetting to put an engine in the Ford 500?
Lincoln Mark LT?
What happened to Lincoln? Cadillac recovered from Cimmoron and Allante, what is Lincoln's problem?
What is the point of Mercury?
I SOLD the Focus when the wheels were falling off, and it needed a jump just to get off the lot! yeah, it won a million awards, about one for every recall, and customer complaint I got about it's level of construction!
Strangely, Chrysler is the most capable of the Big 3, having invented the Minivan, made Hemi a household word, and given us Viper, 300C, and a 7 year warranty. At least they are putting their best foot forward. More than I can say for the other two! :mad:
I owned a 1995 Ford Probe GT (Motor Trend car of The year - Domestics only), and when it was T-Boned, that was the highlight of my ownership experience! :mad:
I own an Acura Integra and it rocks! Case closed!
Suffice to say, I've EARNED my right to cast the first stone! Nothing beats experience, my friend.
Those in the 80's/90's that did have problems with GM/Chrysler/Ford turned to Japan or Europe to see if there were better options. My own case: '76 Charger horrible in cold/damp weather; '86 Delta 88 ( lemon) replaced after 2 yrs by a '88 Olds 98 which was very good for 14 yrs; '90 Camry perfect for 150K+; sold by son for? '94 Chrysler LHS in the shop 7 times first summer for A/C recharge; '94 Camry used 165K+; sold for $4000 '96 Concorde new tranny at 42K; '97 Camry used 185K; traded for $3000 '00 Camry used 58K traded/sold last week $9000 '03 MR2 '04 Highlander '05 Prius Also in there someplace was a Civic hatch for a year and a Ford Escort for a year. Both wre good and solid. GM and Chrysler lost me in the '86-95 period.
But I wouldnt dare touch any of the three now. GM especially has shot itself in the foot through it's sales and marketing strategies over the last 4 years. The fire-sale mentality has made the GM owner feel that his/her vehicle is trash. If they try to trade one in the normal 2-4 year cycle the resale value has plummetted as the new retail prices drop. A GM owner goes into a store and the reaction is 'You should sell this yourself because we cant trade it at any figure near what you want or need for it.' ( IOW your vehicle is worthless to us ). The potential buyer leaves thinking what the hell did I buy this for in the first place?
The vehicles probably are very well made and will last 10-15 years just like the others but the perception is all bad.
Couldn't agree more, sometimes you have to hit bottom to rebound. The best example of that is Nissan/Infiniti. What a great product line once top management changed. I personaly bought a G35 coupe, in my opinion a $50K car for $30K. BTW, didn't Saturn put Honda engines in their cars for a while, I would think that doesn't foster confidence in GM either?.
Drop GMC, Drop Mercury, Drop Saturn. Except for the Saturn Sky (Pretty sweet! :shades: ). Make that a Chevy, I guess.
Invest and rebuild the images of your tattered brands! The core brands, Pontiac (Sporty), Buick (For the Undead), Chevy (Value), Caddy (Luxury). GM is not strong enough anymore to carry 6 brands. It hasn't worked. They've lost 15% market share in less than 20 years, and the competition is to blame? You've had 6-7 brands! YOU SHOULD OWN ALL NICHES!! YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE! You should have one brand just do fuel efficient cars! One do trucks. One do sports cars. You coulda made Scion, you chose not to. It's bad management, all the way around! :mad:
Drop GMC Sierra, and make THE BEST SILVERADO YOU CAN! With Sierra sales, you CAN sell 1,000,000 a year, if you hit it right!
Ford needs engines! The heart and sole of a car. Need a new engine for Mustang, need more Hybrids, need a new Triton 5L, need New Mazda3-based Focus or replacement.
Lincoln needs a complete overhaul. Do what Totota did. Build the best Luxury car you can! Then build a model with 2/3 the size and power in the same idiom. Then fill out the lineup around them. Build a sexy coupe to make the Mags happy (G35), and get a NAV screen bigger than an iPod, will ya!
The problem really is GM doesn't really have that far to go, but they need ride out the RESENTMENT I ansd many others feel, work hard to slash costs like Carlos Ghosn, make every car more efficient and with designs that will inspire, and stop overpromising and underdelivering!
The Aura and Sky are on the right path.
The Malibu and Colorado are the wrong path!
And have a little pride! Build good cars, have public test drive events (Not like the ones where Olds Achieva is better than Toyota Camry! ), increase warranty coverage to instill good will and public confidence(like Kia and Hyundai) and stop the fire-sales!
Sounds like my immediate family over the past 20 years
85 Blazer (nightmare), Tempo (maintained by the book, OK for awhile, but fell apart - nickel and dimer), Ciera (seemed built by 4 year olds), Contour (lemon), a few Taurus (latest has been OK but earlier ones had both tranny and head gasket issues), Lumina (tranny and endless electrical issues), Caravan (tranny), Town & Country (tranny and electrics) off the top of my head. Nothing I'd call great in any of them. Well, the Exploder was decent enough and the bottom of the line Ram 4x4 my dad has hasn't been bad, an 04 Focus has been trouble free at 25K miles.
But, almost all of these cars were in the shop MUCH more than any of the Mercedes I have owned.
Now my mother wants nothing more than a nice Camry or Avalon.
Your missing the point!! Most of us grew up with GM or Ford, if we hate them it's because for what the company has done to the cars we loved and drove us to buy imports. Come back with a world-class firebird or camaro that's worthy of the heritage.
"I have stated before that the imports were taken better care of by owners in the 80s because they were threatened by the dealers that warranty would be voided and the dealers also added on lots of extra maintenance. The American brands didn't get the same treatment."
Interesting theory. I've often proposed the hypothesis that those who buy more expensive (up-front) foreign cars are more likely to do the required maintenance on them than those who buy less expensive US vehicles, and that THIS is largely what causes the perception of shoddy US vehicles.
I've owned nothing but Fords, and since the late 80's, have had no real issues with them. Certainly nothing any worse than the Toyotas and Hondas owned by my brothers. Granted, we all tend to take care of our vehicles.
Civics and Corollas do surprisingly well without basic maintenance though, and as used cars this helped solidify their reputation (though I doubt it was on purpose).
And sadly, it's not just a few crazies that claim Hondas and Toyotas are that much better. I've had Ford engineers doing college recruiting tell me that they drive Toyotas, because they don't feel they're given what they need to design good cars. I was dealing with a Ford fleet dealer for a construction company I worked at... telling him I was hoping to buy an SVT Focus. He told me that since he was a fleet-only guy, he could tell me that I'd be better off with a low mileage Civic or Corolla. If the people closest to the company haven't bought into their own product, then there's something real to this "perception gap."
(Ok, that's purely anecdotal, but it really is all 3 Ford employees I've talked to. And the "brain drain" articles are starting to make their away across the news waves...)
They didn't lose ALL of us. I'm essentially of your peer group. They didn't lose ALL of us. I'm essentially of your peer group.
Uh, not if you live outside of the west coast.
I don't know what it was like where you grew up, but anybody who was anybody drove Cadillacs, Lincolns, or Imperials. Regular people had their Chevrolets, Fords, and Plymouths.
Where I grew up everybody started with American (a few euro/japanese) but by the mid 1980s most everyone (but my parents) had shifted to European and Japanese.
In California, American cars by the 1990s came to symbolize bad engineering, bad design and all around purchasing foolishness. Most of my friends and family (save for my dad who still buys american) wouldn't be caught dead buying American.
At a recent wedding for a college friend most of us had to fly into SF and rent cars. We all griped about the same things regarding our rentals...cheap, tacky and worst of all...American - we all had Pontiacs, GMs, Fords, etc.
I haven't owned an American car since my 83 Ford EXP (I bought it in 1990). That is the last American car I will ever own barring any kind of massive shift...
Want to make someone happy to slide into their troublesome Bavarian sport sedan? Have him drive a Pontiac G6/Grand Prix, Chrysler 300c/Sebring or GM Malibu/Impala for a day. Everytime I travel for business (usually twice a month) I request the rental place give me a japanese car...everytime I end up in something american. These are brand new or near new cars and they're just not fun or interesting cars to drive.
>"I have stated before that the imports were taken better care of by owners in the 80s because they were threatened by the dealers that warranty would be voided and the dealers also added on lots of extra maintenance.
Not a theory. It's from the many different people with whom I worked through those years and with whom my wife worked.
The desire for economy cars which the big 3 were providing allowed the Japanese two to move in "econoboxes" which essentially had no luxuries. No automatics, no power steering. Not much can go wrong with a clutch and manual transmission for 60-70 K in most of them. People bought them and had gas economy for driving to work. Small, loud, and rusted away like crazy. But people had "durable" experiences with them. Then they stayed with the brand as the cars added American car luxuries and increased in size.
Yes they will survive. Being totally honest they make cars as good as anyone else, GM most likely will survive as a smaller company but will remain a force. If Ford gets a hit with the Fusion/Milan and repeats it with a compact they will be a very big dod. If not they will still remain but maybe smaller.
FWIW there has been a few Fords and GM's that I said "WOW" about. And while some still "WOW" me after seeing them in person others may not survive that encounter. Yet as of now nothing from Japan has wowed me, although that may change after a personal encounter.
Who knows, things do go in cycles, in 20,30 or 40 years from now we will be asking "Can Toyota and Honda survive building their crappy cars while Ford and GM's quality can't be touched?"
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"I am certain that the top manager at Georgetown or Marysville or Smyrna is Japanese. But I'm also certain that the majority of others are American."
Really? If you don't know, just say so. The majority are not American.
Have you really dealt with management at any japanese company located in the US? I have, as has my wife. If you did, you would know what I'm talking about.
Of course they will survive! So what if they have to file bankruptcy. Chrysler did in the 80's. I dont recall this much concern about Chrysler folding in the 80's.
"Of course they will survive! So what if they have to file bankruptcy. Chrysler did in the 80's. I dont recall this much concern about Chrysler folding in the 80's."
The government bailed out Chrysler, they didn't do it on their own. I guess I would consider it much concern since the government got involved, right or wrong.
>"I have stated before that the imports were taken better care of by owners in the 80s because they were threatened by the dealers that warranty would be voided and the dealers also added on lots of extra maintenance.
my personal experience doesn't bear this out, and I say this as the former driver of a 1980 toyota corolla, and 1982 cadillac cimarron (no laughing, please). The Cimarron belonged to my parents, and was taken care of meticulously (ie, they followed the scheduled maintenance).
The toyota on the other hand was the "kids car", and it had the snot absolutely beaten out of it. Regular maintenance? Forget it. 10k between oil changes, if it was lucky. I don't think we ever changed the auto tranny fluid until we were ready to sell it (it was jet black when we finally looked! the mechanic recoiled in horror). Terrible, terrible abuse at the hands of many young drivers (all the kids in my family learned to drive on it.)
Yet, it was the Toyota that was bulletproof. When we finally sold it 10 years down the line, with well over 100k on it, despite being banged up and having some rust it was still mechinically in perfect shape.
The cimarron, on the other hand, despite being babied was a nightmare. Power steering dead at 20k (new rack + pump); Tranny dead at 40k. Fuel and temp gauges stopped working as soon as the warranty was up (they just pointed skyward), etc, etc, etc... A total heap from start to finish, and 2x the purchase cost of the toyota to boot.
Toyota gained their reputation by building simple cars that were impossible to kill throughout the 80s. Only after hard-won loyalty were they able to move upmarket.
Nope. Didn't ignore it. Those guys are running the sales and marketing division. Toyota as well as Honda and Nissan are hiring American automobile guys to beat the domestics at their own sales and marketing game, too.
Just had a friend leave Ford and join Nissan in Boston. He told me for the first two weeks, they (his bosses) grilled him on marketing strategies, future incentive programs, brand loyalty, and anything he was involved with at Ford. In a sense, grabbed as many trade secrets as they could. (They also paid him a lot more than he was making at Ford for doing about the same job he will be doing a Nissan.)
"Long term reliablity has always been good at GM."
I most certainly agree and from experience. Witness my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe that lasted 24 years, my 1989 Cadillac Brougham that is still with me after nearly 17 years, and now my 1988 Buick Park Avenue still going strong at nearly 18 years.
I remember a young man from Pakistan who couldn't say enough good things about the Opel he owned back home. Buick is very popular in China. Who knows? Maybe unbiased foreign buyers may be the salvation of GM? Funny how I see many people of Asian descent driving American cars over here. I know a guy from Malaysia who drives a Chevrolet Malibu and a girl from China who has a Ford Freestyle.
As for myself, I can buy a Cadillac, Buick, or Chevrolet with the utmost confidence.
Actually the 4 guys in that posted article are possibly 4 of the main reasons why Toyota has the position they do in this market. They have been with TMS since the early 80's - before the Camry began to take off. They were involved in and directing the contra-marketing strategy vis-a-vis the BIG 3 all through the last two decades.
Your friend if he's young and talented may be the next Denny Clements or Jim Press.
Hate to say it, but I hope not. Only reason is if Toyota, Honda and Nissan keep on increasing their share of the US, the Big 3 will no longer be GM, Ford and Chrysler. I just don't see how having import companies dominate our automobile industry is good for the US.
It's been mentioned before, but no one has really given a good answer.
I most certainly agree and from experience. Witness my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe that lasted 24 years, my 1989 Cadillac Brougham that is still with me after nearly 17 years, and now my 1988 Buick Park Avenue still going strong at nearly 18 years.
Its because of customers like you that GM is failing. If you have purchased your last car 18 years ago, then GM has not made any money off you in the last 18 years. GM needs customers that switch cars every 4-5 years like normal people. Its those "Normal" customers that buy new cars every 4-5 years that have abandoned GM and Ford because of poor resale values and poor quality.
I am sure GM will be very happy when you purchase a new Buick in a couple of years from now.
Marketing is a HUGE reason that imports are doing so well. The Big 3 have been absolutely terrible at it, and their many botched product roll-outs go hand in hand with that.
Toyota's green reputation is basically a lie. Honda's isn't, but everyone thinks of Toyota first. The Big 3 really are behind (especially with the focus on truck-based SUVs), but they've let themselves become more villified than they probably deserve to be. Basically, Toyota has pulled off The Perfect Marketing Campaign over a long period of time, and no one even saw it coming until everyone had been convinced.
Toyota plugged a perception gap before it ever happened.
The domestics had an engineering gap. That led to a corresponding perception gap. Their marketing departments have only made it worse. (Wasn't it a marketer who ran GM for a while, during its truly bad years of engineering?)
There is no future tense in this statement. In fact it is no longer the Big 3.
Now it is actually.. The 2 US-based international automakers and a group of other offshore-based international automakers all owned by stockholders throughout the world. The Chrysler Div of DC is no different than Hyundai or Toyota or Honda.
What is occuring now is no different than what occurred with the former outdated US integrated steel industry. The older inefficient plants/companies stopped producing and then were closed down. The new vibrant mini mills took their place and rejuvenated the US steel industry. It's just business and life goes on.
careful. The Ford Festiva was a Kia product. Come on now!
Ford does well when somebody else builds their rigs (I'm just kidding...sort of ). Lots of Festiva owners have come here to Edmunds to praise their Festiva's, built by Kia in South Korea.
Who would take a serious look at the 2006 Ford Fusion with the intent of buying one of those pups? I'm serious. I like their bodystyle, though the hindquarters look like they stick out rather obnoxiously on the corners a bit. Copying another rig, was it the Honda Accord of some generation and flavor? Humm... the 199_ fill in the blank here, guys. Which rig is it?
I do think that the front of the Ford Fusion looks kind of cool.
imidazol97: I have stated before that the imports were taken better care of by owners in the 80s because they were threatened by the dealers that warranty would be voided and the dealers also added on lots of extra maintenance.
Like blaming currency manipulation, this explanation may seem appealing...on the surface. But it falls apart upon closer examination.
Since the 1980s, the domestics have spent BILLIONS to overhaul their factories and improve their production processses. Management has negotiated with a reluctant, spoiled union to institute processes that improve quality and productivity. They've had to drag along a reluctant, salaried bureaucracy in the quest to improve quality.
Under your theory, all that GM, Ford and Chrysler had to do was institute a tougher maintenance schedule and all of their quality problems would have gone away. Taking this route would have saved the Big Three a whole lot of money, and made their dealers richer as well (as most owners would have come back to the dealers for the extra maintenance).
Sorry, but that explanation doesn't wash.
imidazol97: The American brands didn't get the same treatment.
Considering the problems experienced by owners of the Vega, Oldsmobile Diesel and early X-Cars, maybe the American brands (or, at least, GM) SHOULD HAVE given owners that same treatment. They wouldn't be in their present pickle today.
imidazol97: That earned the econoboxes that many bought then a reputation for good reliability when part of that was just good maintenance and some hidden recall repairs by the dealers.
Sorry, but not true. As someone who drove a 1977 Civic and a 1982 Civic (both bought used), the reputation for reliability was based on solid engineering and excellent quality control. The brutal truth is that both of those cars were head-and-shoulders above ANYTHING competitive (i.e., small, inexpensive cars) available from the domestics in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
The problems with GM cars, for example, were real (Vega, Oldsmobile Diesel, early X-cars, self-destructing V-6s in the intermediates, too-small trannies installed in some full-sizers, sloppy build quality, etc.) and GM wasn't all that inclined to do anything about it.
GM sowed the seeds of its own downfall...and Honda and Toyota earned their excellent reputations.
I have to agree with Lemko, I bought an 05 Impala. I work on all brands, and after a half a dozen years the Japanese labels need just as much work as American labels, and the parts not only cost more, but it takes longer to do the work.
The reliability of the Impala in police service is what convinced me. I work on cars for three police agencies, and often see Impalas that have only needed minor repairs after 150 k miles of what I would call abuse.
Those who complain about the quality of a GM car from twenty years ago should have owned MY Honda, that I bought new twenty eight years ago. If I held a grude as long as the GM haters do, I would be telling everyone to never buy a Honda.
Times change, Honda fixed their problems, GM fixed their's.
Just had a friend leave Ford and join Nissan in Boston. He told me for the first two weeks, they (his bosses) grilled him on marketing strategies, future incentive programs, brand loyalty, and anything he was involved with at Ford. In a sense, grabbed as many trade secrets as they could. (They also paid him a lot more than he was making at Ford for doing about the same job he will be doing a Nissan.)
Ford's fault, for not requiring nondisclosure agreements from workers with access to trade secrets.
It will take a whole new way of using the technology that is available and putting it to good use. For years, the domestics wouldn't put the safety in. Now, they advertise it as a good thing. 180 degree turn. It's time to turn 180 degrees and include really good navigation, bluetooth, multimedia and useful features in domestic cars. Chrysler owned the minivan market at one point because they were innovative. If you do something the best, you'll sell as many as you can. As far as GM goes, it was just plain stupid to save all the good stuff for Cadillac, for example.
Get off the Hemi engine kick. Get off the 500 HP kick. Get off the King Size kick. Stop making concept vehicles that sound great but never become reality. Stop making JUNK, at any price. Start making the domestic vehicles GORGEOUS, full of technological goodies, safe, very fuel efficient, reliable with terrific warranties and service arrangements, make them to LAST, and price them fairly, and guess what? . . . They will SELL!
I just mentioned my older cars to show that GM vehicles can last for the long haul. I did purchase a new Cadillac Seville STS in January 2002. My girlfriend got a new Buick LaCrosse this past March.
I've paid-off my Seville in March and the car has a lot of life left in it. I am extremely happy with it and would feel foolish to trade it right now. If I were to trade it, the Cadillac DTS or Buick Lucerne look like good candidates. The CTS is nice, but too small for me. Of course, I don't know what gasoline prices will look like in the future. In a high-priced gasoline environment, the CTS would shoot to the top of my car-shopping A-list.
If I decide to keep my Seville and just need a work car - the Chevrolet Impala would be the select choice. Now, if I won the lottery and wanted to go crazy, I'd get the ultimate Cadillac STS-V!
Bluetooth technology, multimedia, etc. in a car sound nice, but wouldn't that make them terribly expensive, not only to buy, but service and repair? I'm waiting for the modern equivalent of a late 1960s Dodge Dart - an extremely reliable, durable car that can be purchased cheaply and be serviced and repaired by any owner with basic mechanical skills.
Well, i think that while domestic probably isn't quite as good as honda/toyota in reliability i think they are close enough for most buyers now.
Now, some people will refuse to buy domestics because of past mistakes. You won't change their mind. Of course, some people won't buy a foreign car for the same reason or other. Same difference.
While i wouldn't "not consider" a ford/gm, i don't know where they seem to have a genuine lead. Is a cobalt/focus/neon really better than a civic/corolla/jetta? The opposite, in my experience only.
I do think chrysler is producing some very interesting cars, and it shows. No incentives on the 300/charger, in fact many are selling at sticker or higher!
It's time to turn 180 degrees and include really good navigation, bluetooth, multimedia and useful features in domestic cars.
One mans "useful feature" is another mans waste of hard earned money. Keep your navigation system (I can read a map), multimedia and the like, in my book they are useless.
Make a low priced car without all the bells and whistles that has enough power that handles well and is comfortable to sit in and will last a while. that will sell.
Lets get back to basics.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well, i think that while domestic probably isn't quite as good as honda/toyota in reliability i think they are close enough for most buyers now.
I will have to disagree with that, I think that American cars are on par with Japan. The real issue is that there are those who will not see that no matter what the evidence is. I have a sister that has a Toyota who keeps on telling another sister of mine that her Toyota is so superior in quality them my other sisters chevy. The fact that her Toyota has been in the shop for warranty repairs three times in a little more than a year while my other sisters Chevy hasn't had one issue with it in three years doesn't phase her at all.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well no wonder your GM cars last such a long time, you have 5 of them if I counted right. Lets see if most people drive about 15k miles per year, you drive each one what 3k per year. So even if one breaks it does not matter to you too much because you have so many other ones to drive. Well guess what most people only have one car to drive, and they do put 15k miles on it each year. To them their only car must be reliable. If you only had one car that you drove all of the time, maybe then you also would buy a Toyota.
As far as what US companies need to do: make good quality fashionable cars and give them 7 yr/100k warranties. I have owned more domestic cars than imports with a lean to Chrysler products. You can purchase an extended warranty for any new vehicle for up to about $2000 so the lack of an extended warranty is not a real show stopper. People just do not want to deal with a new car that has problems. I know that my time is too valuable to spend it getting a new car fixed under warranty. I would prefer that nothing happened during the warranty period, guaranteeing me at least three years (or more) with no aggravation. I have had what I consider very good "luck" with domestic autos, but I am mechanically inclined and take very good care of them. I had a 1992 Grand caravan which went 170,000 miles with minor issues (no engine or trans, only axles) and a 1995 Suburban which went 145,000 miles also with only minor issues. I now have a 1999 Intrepid (purchased new) with 65,000 miles which has only had a wheel bearing and trans sensor replaced. The public perceive there to be more value and fewer problems with the imports and so will continue to buy them. Part of this is the perceived higher quality of the vehicle, part of it is the price and resale value of the vehicle and part of it is the level of service at the dealer.
I just thought of. I wonder if one reason that Japanese cars might often go longer is because they tend to hold their value better? I mean, if you have some domestic car with 100,000 miles on it and something breaks, since it has almost no book value, you might be tempted to just deal with whatever's broken. And if it's something tragic enough, you just get another car?
But many Japanese cars with 100,000 miles on it still have some resale value left. So it might seem like it's worth it to sink the money into it when something breaks. For instance, if a $2000 tranny dies in a $2000 Intrepid, chances are the car will get junked. If a $2000 tranny dies in a $4000 Accord, it'll most likely get fixed.
A few years ago, a guy at work was thinking about buying a used '93 or so Accord wagon that he found for sale. The owner, who had bought it used with around 125,000 miles on it, emailed my co-worker an Excel spreadsheet documenting everything the car had put into it. I think it was around 195-200,000 miles at this point. I'd have to dig it up to be sure, but I think they sunk an easy $7-8,000 into that car. So it is a bit of a myth that these things go to 200,000 miles regularly with no problems. Sure, some of them do. Many don't.
And I know that to some people, miles are miles, no matter how they're put on. But how you drive DOES have an effect on how long the car lasts and how reliable it is. For instance, my Mom and stepdad have taken several cars to high mileage because of a long commute to work. They're currently driving a '99 Altima that has around 190,000 miles on it. They had an '86 Monte Carlo that made it to 179,000 miles, then gave to me, and 3 months later I got t-boned with around 192,000 miles on it (yes, I actually put 13K on it in 3 months...pizza delivery can do that to a car!). And if this doesn't prove it right here, they also took an '84 Tempo to 160,000 miles! :surprise:
I have purchased both foreign and domestic new vehicles since 1984. The best contrast I can draw is this: the transmission in our '99 Honda Odyssey failed when the vehicle was just out of warranty. Honda replaced it for free (a $5000 value). The bedcovers on our '02 Chevy Avalanche became discolored (as they all do) as a result of an apparent manufacturing defect. Chevy would not replace them (at a cost of $1300).
Our last two new vehicles were Hondas because they demonstrated some loyalty to their customers. GM failed to do so and it will be a cold day before I buy any of their products again. And, truly, it pains me to say that because I grew up driving GM products exclusively.
Article in our local newspaper by Los Angeles Times reporter was titled, "China ramping up its car production." It said that China's Zhongxing Company was negotiating with a dealer in California to sell its light trucks and suvs for $10,000. It said that China already exports cars to Asia, Africa and Russia. Brilliance China Automotive has a joint venture with BMW and will be selling its cars in Germany. China's Chery Company is working with US person named Bricklin to sell 5 of its models through 40 dealers in US. Article said that GM, Ford and DC pay US factory workers $65/hour total and this is about 50 times the rate paid to Chinese car factory workers such as the Jiangling Company.
Being that many, many folks buy cars on price only, appears there will be market for Chinese produced cars. And, if joint ventures that world companies such as GM have with Chinese expand, Americans could very well be driving a greater amount of Buicks, and other American brands that are made in China in coming years. This will be one way that GM will increase the volume of its branded cars in the US. Could be that many of the people that buy these Buicks won't even realize that they were Chinese. And, if there ever were a deal struck between GM and Chery, Americans could be driving a Chevy built by Chery.
How many Pontiac Vibe owners realize they have a Toyota? Wonder if this question was ever posed to Vibe owners. Many of them are probably proud to be driving an American branded "Pontiac".
Make a low priced car without all the bells and whistles that has enough power that handles well and is comfortable to sit in and will last a while. that will sell.
I'm with snake on this and I think Ford has a potential winner in the Fusion.. if .. they dont try to force feed a V6 down the throats of a 4c buying public. If the new I4 is as good as the CamCords then the Fusion will sell out and there wont be any need for massive incentives.
Of course they (Vibe owners) know they're driving a Toyota - that probably accounts for 50% of the purchases.
The unions have to release the stranglehold on the companies. The stranglehold siphons $$ that otherwise could be used to increase quality of interiors, extend warrenties, or, god forbid, hire good designers.
To bring back market share, the domestics can't be as good as the imports- they HAVE to be better. They have to have better styling, better engineering, better fuel economy, and better reliability. If they can do this- build a car that is clearly better- then people will turn back to domestics.
I myself bought a 2001 Honda Civic instead of a 2001 Ford Focus because- simply- I hated the Ford Focus interior. I did not want to sit for 12 years inside an ugly interior although there were other factors from resale value to fuel economy to safety involved as well. For me, if the Ford Focus was a looker, it would have been worth it for me to have bought one. My friend bought a 2003 Ford Focus and I suspect his car has a good chance at outlasting mine- time will tell! It is a long endurance test of Ford vs Honda for us ). Sure wish my Civic was built in the USA like most of the new Civics at least seem to be- at least if my engine goes out I will be able to buy an American re-manufactured jobby.
The unions have to release the stranglehold on the companies. The stranglehold siphons $$ that otherwise could be used to increase quality of interiors, extend warrenties, or, god forbid, hire good designers.
And top management of companies has had no responsibility in current dilemna that started decades ago? Did management allow this "stranglehold" to evolve? What about managements' strategies, or lack thereof, in early 80's when Japanese started to be a threat.
Yep, they have to be better and cheaper. Essentially, American makes are in the same position the japanese were in during the 1980s.
You give me two FWD entry-level luxo-sport sedans that are priced about the same - Lincoln Zephyr is 33-34k with xenons, moonroof, FWD and an Acura TL 33k, xenons, moon, fwd, 6 speed, with everything but navi - and there's no way on god's green earth I'm going to even look at the Lincoln. It won't happen. At all. Even ignorning the power differences and the Lincoln's illogical lack of manual, the Lincoln has a giant strike going against it from square one: it's priced about the same as a Japanese car.
I'm not sure what marketing genius thought this pricing up, but the Zephyr, even if it's totally on par with the TL, is at a disadvantage in the marketplace. They need to take a clue from Infiniti's G35 and Lexus' original LS400. Both of those cars entered against established competitors and they undercut those established players offering as much or more car for 5-6-8k less.
The LS400 took off and the G35 even with its lower-level interior gave buyers a huge price savings and nearly comparable abilities v. the 3 series. The other upshot of selling with a far lower msrp...the depreciation doesn't hit the buyer the same way. If Infiniti had priced the G35 at BMW levels and then gave buyers rebates (typical American move) the end result would be cars with drastic depreciation (just like American makes). Because of Infiniti's savvy (or copycatting of lexus' ls400), the G35 is considered to be a major success and it's got great residual values.
Strangely, Ford still hasn't caught on. When the Zephyr is offered with 3-4k rebates, will any of us be shocked? When we hear the 2006 zep's in 2009 are selling for 45% of sticker will that shock us? Nope. Ford did it to themselves.
The American car companies don't seem to grasp they're considered the inferior manufacturers. They need to earn buyers' respect again and it won't come from even offering a comparable vehicle at a comparable price.
You give me two FWD entry-level luxo-sport sedans that are priced about the same - Lincoln Zephyr is 33-34k with xenons, moonroof, FWD and an Acura TL 33k, xenons, moon, fwd, 6 speed, with everything but navi - and there's no way on god's green earth I'm going to even look at the Lincoln. It won't happen. At all.
Agreed. Can't imagine anyone shopping a TL or G35 looking at a Zephyr.
Isn't Ford making somewhat similar mistake with Lincoln that GM did when they converted a Chevy compact into a Cimmaron? Lincoln Zephyr is a derivative of a Mazda 6/Ford Fusion. It is just a rehash, no new engineering/design going on here. I guess that at least the Mazda 6 is a decent car. Bigger question for Ford is whether or not Lincoln (and Mercury) are relevant. How close are they to destiny of Plymouth and Oldsmobile.
Comments
Why do people not buy American cars? Well for one, if they look at forums like this they would pretty much read that American cars are still junk, despite the fact that most of these posts are nothing but BS. And another, if they read any car magazine American cars are always rated last. Sometimes they deserve it, most of the time I believe it is bias. You can have a BMW break down in some comparison yet still take first place. But the reviewer does not like the "feel" of something in an American car so it automatically gets last place. Or, since I own one, how about the GTO (yes I know not a true American car)? As a Holden/Vauxhaull - it is praised around the world and compared favorably to the BMW M5 (old one of course) and various Mercedes. Yet, slap a Pontiac badge on it and all of a sudden it is derided in the automotive press and cannot win a review against even a Mustang or Charger. Yeh, there is no bias :mad:
By the way, who in the hell put the GTO-Holden in the same class as the M5?
Sorry about my post, but I was bored so I thought I'd hammer GM for a while.... :shades:
Maybe only to be ussurped by the 1994 Chevy Balzer (with the legendary "Driver Control System!). Wanna see something scarier than "The Blair Witch Project"? Watch the crash tests of that piece of garbage! While you're at it, do the same with Chevy venture or Pontiac Montana.
And I STILL haven't forgiven ANYONE at GM for making the Cimmoron!! That level of forgiveness is just not in my heart.
BTW, they have tests and surveys now that show the long-term reliability of GM cars and trucks, and while Caddy and Buick are good (Mostly because of the low volume of cars produced and the 7-8 years between redesigns), Chevys and Pontiacs fairly reek, somewhere between mediocrity and true wretchedness.
Ford is no better, with no one at the helm since the Godfather, Henry Ford.
Ford Festiva?
How many Billions did they lose on the Ford Contour?
Forgetting to put an engine in the Ford 500?
Lincoln Mark LT?
What happened to Lincoln? Cadillac recovered from Cimmoron and Allante, what is Lincoln's problem?
What is the point of Mercury?
I SOLD the Focus when the wheels were falling off, and it needed a jump just to get off the lot! yeah, it won a million awards, about one for every recall, and customer complaint I got about it's level of construction!
Strangely, Chrysler is the most capable of the Big 3, having invented the Minivan, made Hemi a household word, and given us Viper, 300C, and a 7 year warranty. At least they are putting their best foot forward. More than I can say for the other two! :mad:
I owned a 1995 Ford Probe GT (Motor Trend car of The year - Domestics only), and when it was T-Boned, that was the highlight of my ownership experience! :mad:
I own an Acura Integra and it rocks! Case closed!
Suffice to say, I've EARNED my right to cast the first stone! Nothing beats experience, my friend.
DrFill
Those in the 80's/90's that did have problems with GM/Chrysler/Ford turned to Japan or Europe to see if there were better options. My own case:
'76 Charger horrible in cold/damp weather;
'86 Delta 88 ( lemon) replaced after 2 yrs by a
'88 Olds 98 which was very good for 14 yrs;
'90 Camry perfect for 150K+; sold by son for?
'94 Chrysler LHS in the shop 7 times first summer for A/C recharge;
'94 Camry used 165K+; sold for $4000
'96 Concorde new tranny at 42K;
'97 Camry used 185K; traded for $3000
'00 Camry used 58K traded/sold last week $9000
'03 MR2
'04 Highlander
'05 Prius
Also in there someplace was a Civic hatch for a year and a Ford Escort for a year. Both wre good and solid. GM and Chrysler lost me in the '86-95 period.
But I wouldnt dare touch any of the three now. GM especially has shot itself in the foot through it's sales and marketing strategies over the last 4 years. The fire-sale mentality has made the GM owner feel that his/her vehicle is trash. If they try to trade one in the normal 2-4 year cycle the resale value has plummetted as the new retail prices drop. A GM owner goes into a store and the reaction is 'You should sell this yourself because we cant trade it at any figure near what you want or need for it.' ( IOW your vehicle is worthless to us ). The potential buyer leaves thinking what the hell did I buy this for in the first place?
The vehicles probably are very well made and will last 10-15 years just like the others but the perception is all bad.
The best example of that is Nissan/Infiniti. What a great product line once top management changed. I personaly bought a G35 coupe, in my opinion a $50K car for $30K.
BTW, didn't Saturn put Honda engines in their cars for a while, I would think that doesn't foster confidence in GM either?.
Drop GMC, Drop Mercury, Drop Saturn. Except for the Saturn Sky (Pretty sweet! :shades: ). Make that a Chevy, I guess.
Invest and rebuild the images of your tattered brands! The core brands, Pontiac (Sporty), Buick (For the Undead), Chevy (Value), Caddy (Luxury). GM is not strong enough anymore to carry 6 brands. It hasn't worked. They've lost 15% market share in less than 20 years, and the competition is to blame? You've had 6-7 brands! YOU SHOULD OWN ALL NICHES!! YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE! You should have one brand just do fuel efficient cars! One do trucks. One do sports cars. You coulda made Scion, you chose not to. It's bad management, all the way around! :mad:
Drop GMC Sierra, and make THE BEST SILVERADO YOU CAN! With Sierra sales, you CAN sell 1,000,000 a year, if you hit it right!
Ford needs engines! The heart and sole of a car. Need a new engine for Mustang, need more Hybrids, need a new Triton 5L, need New Mazda3-based Focus or replacement.
Lincoln needs a complete overhaul. Do what Totota did. Build the best Luxury car you can! Then build a model with 2/3 the size and power in the same idiom. Then fill out the lineup around them. Build a sexy coupe to make the Mags happy (G35), and get a NAV screen bigger than an iPod, will ya!
The problem really is GM doesn't really have that far to go, but they need ride out the RESENTMENT I ansd many others feel, work hard to slash costs like Carlos Ghosn, make every car more efficient and with designs that will inspire, and stop overpromising and underdelivering!
The Aura and Sky are on the right path.
The Malibu and Colorado are the wrong path!
And have a little pride! Build good cars, have public test drive events (Not like the ones where Olds Achieva is better than Toyota Camry!
That's just the problems off the top of my head!
Don't get me started!
DrFill
85 Blazer (nightmare), Tempo (maintained by the book, OK for awhile, but fell apart - nickel and dimer), Ciera (seemed built by 4 year olds), Contour (lemon), a few Taurus (latest has been OK but earlier ones had both tranny and head gasket issues), Lumina (tranny and endless electrical issues), Caravan (tranny), Town & Country (tranny and electrics) off the top of my head. Nothing I'd call great in any of them. Well, the Exploder was decent enough and the bottom of the line Ram 4x4 my dad has hasn't been bad, an 04 Focus has been trouble free at 25K miles.
But, almost all of these cars were in the shop MUCH more than any of the Mercedes I have owned.
Now my mother wants nothing more than a nice Camry or Avalon.
Most of us grew up with GM or Ford, if we hate them it's because for what the company has done to the cars we loved and drove us to buy imports. Come back with a world-class firebird or camaro that's worthy of the heritage.
And 71% of statistics are made up on the spot. :P
Interesting theory. I've often proposed the hypothesis that those who buy more expensive (up-front) foreign cars are more likely to do the required maintenance on them than those who buy less expensive US vehicles, and that THIS is largely what causes the perception of shoddy US vehicles.
I've owned nothing but Fords, and since the late 80's, have had no real issues with them. Certainly nothing any worse than the Toyotas and Hondas owned by my brothers. Granted, we all tend to take care of our vehicles.
Civics and Corollas do surprisingly well without basic maintenance though, and as used cars this helped solidify their reputation (though I doubt it was on purpose).
And sadly, it's not just a few crazies that claim Hondas and Toyotas are that much better. I've had Ford engineers doing college recruiting tell me that they drive Toyotas, because they don't feel they're given what they need to design good cars. I was dealing with a Ford fleet dealer for a construction company I worked at... telling him I was hoping to buy an SVT Focus. He told me that since he was a fleet-only guy, he could tell me that I'd be better off with a low mileage Civic or Corolla. If the people closest to the company haven't bought into their own product, then there's something real to this "perception gap."
(Ok, that's purely anecdotal, but it really is all 3 Ford employees I've talked to. And the "brain drain" articles are starting to make their away across the news waves...)
Uh, not if you live outside of the west coast.
I don't know what it was like where you grew up, but anybody who was anybody drove Cadillacs, Lincolns, or Imperials. Regular people had their Chevrolets, Fords, and Plymouths.
Where I grew up everybody started with American (a few euro/japanese) but by the mid 1980s most everyone (but my parents) had shifted to European and Japanese.
In California, American cars by the 1990s came to symbolize bad engineering, bad design and all around purchasing foolishness. Most of my friends and family (save for my dad who still buys american) wouldn't be caught dead buying American.
At a recent wedding for a college friend most of us had to fly into SF and rent cars. We all griped about the same things regarding our rentals...cheap, tacky and worst of all...American - we all had Pontiacs, GMs, Fords, etc.
I haven't owned an American car since my 83 Ford EXP (I bought it in 1990). That is the last American car I will ever own barring any kind of massive shift...
Want to make someone happy to slide into their troublesome Bavarian sport sedan? Have him drive a Pontiac G6/Grand Prix, Chrysler 300c/Sebring or GM Malibu/Impala for a day. Everytime I travel for business (usually twice a month) I request the rental place give me a japanese car...everytime I end up in something american. These are brand new or near new cars and they're just not fun or interesting cars to drive.
Not a theory. It's from the many different people with whom I worked through those years and with whom my wife worked.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
FWIW there has been a few Fords and GM's that I said "WOW" about. And while some still "WOW" me after seeing them in person others may not survive that encounter. Yet as of now nothing from Japan has wowed me, although that may change after a personal encounter.
Who knows, things do go in cycles, in 20,30 or 40 years from now we will be asking "Can Toyota and Honda survive building their crappy cars while Ford and GM's quality can't be touched?"
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Really? If you don't know, just say so. The majority are not American.
Have you really dealt with management at any japanese company located in the US? I have, as has my wife. If you did, you would know what I'm talking about.
The government bailed out Chrysler, they didn't do it on their own. I guess I would consider it much concern since the government got involved, right or wrong.
my personal experience doesn't bear this out, and I say this as the former driver of a 1980 toyota corolla, and 1982 cadillac cimarron (no laughing, please). The Cimarron belonged to my parents, and was taken care of meticulously (ie, they followed the scheduled maintenance).
The toyota on the other hand was the "kids car", and it had the snot absolutely beaten out of it. Regular maintenance? Forget it. 10k between oil changes, if it was lucky. I don't think we ever changed the auto tranny fluid until we were ready to sell it (it was jet black when we finally looked! the mechanic recoiled in horror). Terrible, terrible abuse at the hands of many young drivers (all the kids in my family learned to drive on it.)
Yet, it was the Toyota that was bulletproof. When we finally sold it 10 years down the line, with well over 100k on it, despite being banged up and having some rust it was still mechinically in perfect shape.
The cimarron, on the other hand, despite being babied was a nightmare. Power steering dead at 20k (new rack + pump); Tranny dead at 40k. Fuel and temp gauges stopped working as soon as the warranty was up (they just pointed skyward), etc, etc, etc... A total heap from start to finish, and 2x the purchase cost of the toyota to boot.
Toyota gained their reputation by building simple cars that were impossible to kill throughout the 80s. Only after hard-won loyalty were they able to move upmarket.
Just had a friend leave Ford and join Nissan in Boston. He told me for the first two weeks, they (his bosses) grilled him on marketing strategies, future incentive programs, brand loyalty, and anything he was involved with at Ford. In a sense, grabbed as many trade secrets as they could. (They also paid him a lot more than he was making at Ford for doing about the same job he will be doing a Nissan.)
I know, it happens all the time in business.
I most certainly agree and from experience. Witness my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe that lasted 24 years, my 1989 Cadillac Brougham that is still with me after nearly 17 years, and now my 1988 Buick Park Avenue still going strong at nearly 18 years.
I remember a young man from Pakistan who couldn't say enough good things about the Opel he owned back home. Buick is very popular in China. Who knows? Maybe unbiased foreign buyers may be the salvation of GM? Funny how I see many people of Asian descent driving American cars over here. I know a guy from Malaysia who drives a Chevrolet Malibu and a girl from China who has a Ford Freestyle.
As for myself, I can buy a Cadillac, Buick, or Chevrolet with the utmost confidence.
Your friend if he's young and talented may be the next Denny Clements or Jim Press.
It's been mentioned before, but no one has really given a good answer.
Its because of customers like you that GM is failing. If you have purchased your last car 18 years ago, then GM has not made any money off you in the last 18 years. GM needs customers that switch cars every 4-5 years like normal people. Its those "Normal" customers that buy new cars every 4-5 years that have abandoned GM and Ford because of poor resale values and poor quality.
I am sure GM will be very happy when you purchase a new Buick in a couple of years from now.
Toyota's green reputation is basically a lie. Honda's isn't, but everyone thinks of Toyota first. The Big 3 really are behind (especially with the focus on truck-based SUVs), but they've let themselves become more villified than they probably deserve to be. Basically, Toyota has pulled off The Perfect Marketing Campaign over a long period of time, and no one even saw it coming until everyone had been convinced.
Toyota plugged a perception gap before it ever happened.
The domestics had an engineering gap. That led to a corresponding perception gap. Their marketing departments have only made it worse. (Wasn't it a marketer who ran GM for a while, during its truly bad years of engineering?)
There is no future tense in this statement. In fact it is no longer the Big 3.
Now it is actually.. The 2 US-based international automakers and a group of other offshore-based international automakers all owned by stockholders throughout the world. The Chrysler Div of DC is no different than Hyundai or Toyota or Honda.
What is occuring now is no different than what occurred with the former outdated US integrated steel industry. The older inefficient plants/companies stopped producing and then were closed down. The new vibrant mini mills took their place and rejuvenated the US steel industry. It's just business and life goes on.
Ford does well when somebody else builds their rigs (I'm just kidding...sort of
Who would take a serious look at the 2006 Ford Fusion with the intent of buying one of those pups? I'm serious. I like their bodystyle, though the hindquarters look like they stick out rather obnoxiously on the corners a bit. Copying another rig, was it the Honda Accord of some generation and flavor? Humm... the 199_ fill in the blank here, guys. Which rig is it?
I do think that the front of the Ford Fusion looks kind of cool.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Like blaming currency manipulation, this explanation may seem appealing...on the surface. But it falls apart upon closer examination.
Since the 1980s, the domestics have spent BILLIONS to overhaul their factories and improve their production processses. Management has negotiated with a reluctant, spoiled union to institute processes that improve quality and productivity. They've had to drag along a reluctant, salaried bureaucracy in the quest to improve quality.
Under your theory, all that GM, Ford and Chrysler had to do was institute a tougher maintenance schedule and all of their quality problems would have gone away. Taking this route would have saved the Big Three a whole lot of money, and made their dealers richer as well (as most owners would have come back to the dealers for the extra maintenance).
Sorry, but that explanation doesn't wash.
imidazol97: The American brands didn't get the same treatment.
Considering the problems experienced by owners of the Vega, Oldsmobile Diesel and early X-Cars, maybe the American brands (or, at least, GM) SHOULD HAVE given owners that same treatment. They wouldn't be in their present pickle today.
imidazol97: That earned the econoboxes that many bought then a reputation for good reliability when part of that was just good maintenance and some hidden recall repairs by the dealers.
Sorry, but not true. As someone who drove a 1977 Civic and a 1982 Civic (both bought used), the reputation for reliability was based on solid engineering and excellent quality control. The brutal truth is that both of those cars were head-and-shoulders above ANYTHING competitive (i.e., small, inexpensive cars) available from the domestics in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
The problems with GM cars, for example, were real (Vega, Oldsmobile Diesel, early X-cars, self-destructing V-6s in the intermediates, too-small trannies installed in some full-sizers, sloppy build quality, etc.) and GM wasn't all that inclined to do anything about it.
GM sowed the seeds of its own downfall...and Honda and Toyota earned their excellent reputations.
The reliability of the Impala in police service is what convinced me. I work on cars for three police agencies, and often see Impalas that have only needed minor repairs after 150 k miles of what I would call abuse.
Those who complain about the quality of a GM car from twenty years ago should have owned MY Honda, that I bought new twenty eight years ago. If I held a grude as long as the GM haters do, I would be telling everyone to never buy a Honda.
Times change, Honda fixed their problems, GM fixed their's.
Harry
Ford's fault, for not requiring nondisclosure agreements from workers with access to trade secrets.
Get off the Hemi engine kick. Get off the 500 HP kick. Get off the King Size kick. Stop making concept vehicles that sound great but never become reality. Stop making JUNK, at any price. Start making the domestic vehicles GORGEOUS, full of technological goodies, safe, very fuel efficient, reliable with terrific warranties and service arrangements, make them to LAST, and price them fairly, and guess what? . . . They will SELL!
I've paid-off my Seville in March and the car has a lot of life left in it. I am extremely happy with it and would feel foolish to trade it right now. If I were to trade it, the Cadillac DTS or Buick Lucerne look like good candidates. The CTS is nice, but too small for me. Of course, I don't know what gasoline prices will look like in the future. In a high-priced gasoline environment, the CTS would shoot to the top of my car-shopping A-list.
If I decide to keep my Seville and just need a work car - the Chevrolet Impala would be the select choice. Now, if I won the lottery and wanted to go crazy, I'd get the ultimate Cadillac STS-V!
Now, some people will refuse to buy domestics because of past mistakes. You won't change their mind. Of course, some people won't buy a foreign car for the same reason or other. Same difference.
While i wouldn't "not consider" a ford/gm, i don't know where they seem to have a genuine lead. Is a cobalt/focus/neon really better than a civic/corolla/jetta? The opposite, in my experience only.
I do think chrysler is producing some very interesting cars, and it shows. No incentives on the 300/charger, in fact many are selling at sticker or higher!
dave
One mans "useful feature" is another mans waste of hard earned money. Keep your navigation system (I can read a map), multimedia and the like, in my book they are useless.
Make a low priced car without all the bells and whistles that has enough power that handles well and is comfortable to sit in and will last a while. that will sell.
Lets get back to basics.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I will have to disagree with that, I think that American cars are on par with Japan. The real issue is that there are those who will not see that no matter what the evidence is. I have a sister that has a Toyota who keeps on telling another sister of mine that her Toyota is so superior in quality them my other sisters chevy. The fact that her Toyota has been in the shop for warranty repairs three times in a little more than a year while my other sisters Chevy hasn't had one issue with it in three years doesn't phase her at all.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So even if one breaks it does not matter to you too much because you have so many other ones to drive. Well guess what most people only have one car to drive, and they do put 15k miles on it each year. To them their only car must be reliable. If you only had one car that you drove all of the time, maybe then you also would buy a Toyota.
I have owned more domestic cars than imports with a lean to Chrysler products. You can purchase an extended warranty for any new vehicle for up to about $2000 so the lack of an extended warranty is not a real show stopper. People just do not want to deal with a new car that has problems. I know that my time is too valuable to spend it getting a new car fixed under warranty. I would prefer that nothing happened during the warranty period, guaranteeing me at least three years (or more) with no aggravation.
I have had what I consider very good "luck" with domestic autos, but I am mechanically inclined and take very good care of them. I had a 1992 Grand caravan which went 170,000 miles with minor issues (no engine or trans, only axles) and a 1995 Suburban which went 145,000 miles also with only minor issues. I now have a 1999 Intrepid (purchased new) with 65,000 miles which has only had a wheel bearing and trans sensor replaced.
The public perceive there to be more value and fewer problems with the imports and so will continue to buy them. Part of this is the perceived higher quality of the vehicle, part of it is the price and resale value of the vehicle and part of it is the level of service at the dealer.
But many Japanese cars with 100,000 miles on it still have some resale value left. So it might seem like it's worth it to sink the money into it when something breaks. For instance, if a $2000 tranny dies in a $2000 Intrepid, chances are the car will get junked. If a $2000 tranny dies in a $4000 Accord, it'll most likely get fixed.
A few years ago, a guy at work was thinking about buying a used '93 or so Accord wagon that he found for sale. The owner, who had bought it used with around 125,000 miles on it, emailed my co-worker an Excel spreadsheet documenting everything the car had put into it. I think it was around 195-200,000 miles at this point. I'd have to dig it up to be sure, but I think they sunk an easy $7-8,000 into that car. So it is a bit of a myth that these things go to 200,000 miles regularly with no problems. Sure, some of them do. Many don't.
And I know that to some people, miles are miles, no matter how they're put on. But how you drive DOES have an effect on how long the car lasts and how reliable it is. For instance, my Mom and stepdad have taken several cars to high mileage because of a long commute to work. They're currently driving a '99 Altima that has around 190,000 miles on it. They had an '86 Monte Carlo that made it to 179,000 miles, then gave to me, and 3 months later I got t-boned with around 192,000 miles on it (yes, I actually put 13K on it in 3 months...pizza delivery can do that to a car!). And if this doesn't prove it right here, they also took an '84 Tempo to 160,000 miles! :surprise:
Our last two new vehicles were Hondas because they demonstrated some loyalty to their customers. GM failed to do so and it will be a cold day before I buy any of their products again. And, truly, it pains me to say that because I grew up driving GM products exclusively.
It said that China's Zhongxing Company was negotiating with a dealer in California to sell its light trucks and suvs for $10,000. It said that China already exports cars to Asia, Africa and Russia. Brilliance China Automotive has a joint venture with BMW and will be selling its cars in Germany. China's Chery Company is working with US person named Bricklin to sell 5 of its models through 40 dealers in US. Article said that GM, Ford and DC pay US factory workers $65/hour total and this is about 50 times the rate paid to Chinese car factory workers such as the Jiangling Company.
Being that many, many folks buy cars on price only, appears there will be market for Chinese produced cars. And, if joint ventures that world companies such as GM have with Chinese expand, Americans could very well be driving a greater amount of Buicks, and other American brands that are made in China in coming years. This will be one way that GM will increase the volume of its branded cars in the US. Could be that many of the people that buy these Buicks won't even realize that they were Chinese. And, if there ever were a deal struck between GM and Chery, Americans could be driving a Chevy built by Chery.
How many Pontiac Vibe owners realize they have a Toyota? Wonder if this question was ever posed to Vibe owners. Many of them are probably proud to be driving an American branded "Pontiac".
I'm with snake on this and I think Ford has a potential winner in the Fusion.. if .. they dont try to force feed a V6 down the throats of a 4c buying public. If the new I4 is as good as the CamCords then the Fusion will sell out and there wont be any need for massive incentives.
The unions have to release the stranglehold on the companies. The stranglehold siphons $$ that otherwise could be used to increase quality of interiors, extend warrenties, or, god forbid, hire good designers.
I myself bought a 2001 Honda Civic instead of a 2001 Ford Focus because- simply- I hated the Ford Focus interior. I did not want to sit for 12 years inside an ugly interior although there were other factors from resale value to fuel economy to safety involved as well. For me, if the Ford Focus was a looker, it would have been worth it for me to have bought one. My friend bought a 2003 Ford Focus and I suspect his car has a good chance at outlasting mine- time will tell! It is a long endurance test of Ford vs Honda for us
And top management of companies has had no responsibility in current dilemna that started decades ago? Did management allow this "stranglehold" to evolve? What about managements' strategies, or lack thereof, in early 80's when Japanese started to be a threat.
You give me two FWD entry-level luxo-sport sedans that are priced about the same - Lincoln Zephyr is 33-34k with xenons, moonroof, FWD and an Acura TL 33k, xenons, moon, fwd, 6 speed, with everything but navi - and there's no way on god's green earth I'm going to even look at the Lincoln. It won't happen. At all. Even ignorning the power differences and the Lincoln's illogical lack of manual, the Lincoln has a giant strike going against it from square one: it's priced about the same as a Japanese car.
I'm not sure what marketing genius thought this pricing up, but the Zephyr, even if it's totally on par with the TL, is at a disadvantage in the marketplace. They need to take a clue from Infiniti's G35 and Lexus' original LS400. Both of those cars entered against established competitors and they undercut those established players offering as much or more car for 5-6-8k less.
The LS400 took off and the G35 even with its lower-level interior gave buyers a huge price savings and nearly comparable abilities v. the 3 series. The other upshot of selling with a far lower msrp...the depreciation doesn't hit the buyer the same way. If Infiniti had priced the G35 at BMW levels and then gave buyers rebates (typical American move) the end result would be cars with drastic depreciation (just like American makes). Because of Infiniti's savvy (or copycatting of lexus' ls400), the G35 is considered to be a major success and it's got great residual values.
Strangely, Ford still hasn't caught on. When the Zephyr is offered with 3-4k rebates, will any of us be shocked? When we hear the 2006 zep's in 2009 are selling for 45% of sticker will that shock us? Nope. Ford did it to themselves.
The American car companies don't seem to grasp they're considered the inferior manufacturers. They need to earn buyers' respect again and it won't come from even offering a comparable vehicle at a comparable price.
Agreed. Can't imagine anyone shopping a TL or G35 looking at a Zephyr.
Isn't Ford making somewhat similar mistake with Lincoln that GM did when they converted a Chevy compact into a Cimmaron? Lincoln Zephyr is a derivative of a Mazda 6/Ford Fusion. It is just a rehash, no new engineering/design going on here. I guess that at least the Mazda 6 is a decent car. Bigger question for Ford is whether or not Lincoln (and Mercury) are relevant. How close are they to destiny of Plymouth and Oldsmobile.