Interiors are judged relative to what we are used that we drive or what we aspire to drive. I want interior plastics which LAST. I don't want plastics that crack and peel like I see on some cars when I park next to them.
Your not kidding regarding the lack of rear seat room in the GP. Granted, before kids I could care less about rear seat room, but times have changed.
When I sat in the back of an 05 GP, I almost laughed it was so bad. For anyone 6' tall I would fear being rear ended while sitting back there. My head which had to be placed in the little area which allowed for an extra inch or so, placed the back of my head against the rear window. That has to be some type of safety issue. I certainly don't want to ride back there any longer than absolutely necessary.
The 06 Impala was certainly better, but I swear I remember my wifes 01 Impala as having more room in the back seat. Both felt like a compact in the rear seat when compared to the Ford 500. To bad Ford couldn't import a Volvo T5 or T6 engine along with the volvo chassis.
A Volvo salesman in one of the groups explained that the 500 does not use the same Volvo chassis. It does not have the same steel type so it's not the same "strength" that the Volvo had. Even though it's a similar design, it's not the similar outcome, he said. Not as strong. That comment surprised me.
Looks like the Charger is not doing very well thus far. Could it be that the 300 has saturated the market for 25 - 35K family sedans?
Is it that or could it be that many are not buying into the 4-door Charger, the "new-age" version of the muscle car (not my words, DCX PR department)?
There's a person here that has one, and two people that have Magnums (one a 6cyl, one a HEMI). The Magnums have received nothing but praise, the Charger, not so lucky. And everyone I have talked to hates the Charger, wanting it to be a 2-door. And on the same flip, everyone that has seen the renderings and spy shots of the Challenger really dig it. If it stays true, it may very well be in my garage sharing a space with my 66 Impala SS.
All of the weight, packaging, efficiency and low traction liabilities that ended the RWD family sedan era in the 80's still exist today.
And ushered in the mid- / full-SUV craze, which weigh more, have packaging issues, are equally as or less efficient, and can suffer from low-traction issues as well, (just like FWD BTW). So what was gained?
But do have a question, how do you know there's a small RWD under $30K car market? What concrete data suggests that? And please don't do the "if there was a market, then everyone would be building them..." or the "in the snow belt..." jazz.
Well a Ford salesman told me that it was the same chassis. Now which salesman are your going to believe. I don't believe any salesman until I check things out for myself. I think that in terms of chassis strength the Ford 500 is one of the best cars made today. The results of crash tests speak for them self. Ford 500 earned 5-stars in all crash tests.
Do you really think GM would sell more RWD Impalas than FWD ones?? I know here in the snow belt I don't see many 300's.
Yes I really think that GM would sell more RWD Impalas then FWD Impalas. Here are a couple of reasons why. People living in Snow country assume that FWD cars offer better traction then RWD cars. This is not strictly correct. If you properly build a RWD car with 50% weight over the rear wheels, it will offer traction similar to FWD car. Traction depends only on the weight pushing down on the wheels. I often went skiing in Europe and there people regularly drive their BMW and Mercedes to the slopes on ice and snow covered roads. Its a question of weight distribution and winter tires. Traction control and stability control also help in RWD cars. You know there are plenty of places where it does not snow in America. There are millions of people living there. So what if it does not sell great up north, it will sell great down south.
Besides the market is saturated with FWD cars. Current Chevy Impala is a mediocre car that does not stand out in any way what so ever from the competition. If Chevy Impala was a RWD car, it would have hardly any competition. Many people simply don't like the style of Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger or Magnum. I think that Chrysler cars are fine, I just don't care for their hip-hop style. That would also explain that you don't see too many of them where you live. NO, I am taking about Chevy building a nice conservative Impala for middle class America that is RWD. Put the 5.3L V8 engine from the current car and sell it for under $30K.
People living in Snow country assume that FWD cars offer better traction then RWD cars. This is not strictly correct. If you properly build a RWD car with 50% weight over the rear wheels, it will offer traction similar to FWD car. Traction depends only on the weight pushing down on the wheels.
FWD still superior to RWD in snow. In FWD, the front tires are with traction and are biting at the snow to get at the pavement. In RWD, the front tires cannot bite and are acting kind of like tobogans and want to ride up on the snow.
The main reason I get concerned about rear legroom is because, no matter what car I drive, it's almost a given that the front seat is going back as far as possible, and I always hated having a rear-seat passenger's knees poking into my back!
Back in 1999 when I bought my Intrepid, one of the reasons I chose it over an Impala was that it just felt a lot roomier inside. When you actually look at the specs, they're very close. But my knees hit the seatback in the back seat of the Impala, and the high beltline made it feel claustrophobic to me. I could deal with the interior room of the Impala, but I swear the Malibu feels like it has more legroom! I haven't tried out an '06 Impala yet...I was hoping they would've done something to it to increase the room a bit. It does look like it's a taller car than the '01-05.
That's an interesting link. I will have to print it to study it and determine if it's great with info or info to confuse. But it's a good link and I thank you for it.
FWD still superior to RWD in snow. In FWD, the front tires are with traction and are biting at the snow to get at the pavement. In RWD, the front tires cannot bite and are acting kind of like tobogans and want to ride up on the snow.
Go into a bimmer forum and say that...lol. They'll come after you lickety split. FWIW, most RWD owners I know swear that good snow tires get them through the summer just fine while also making life very pleasurable the other 7-8 months a year when there's no snow at all. FWD may be better for some during snow season but then the other 8 months they're left with a boring car.
To get me to buy American, It'll require the same thing it took for me to buy Japanese:
I'll need to see a 5yr+ record of outstanding reliability, outstanding build quality, and that hard-to-describe feeling of inherent solidity when closing the door, that refined "ripping silk" engine note when accelerating onto a highway, that interior appearance that suggests artisans were at work designing and assembling the interior - even in a sub-$20k car. I want the car to feel and sound like new several years after it was purchased.
American car interiors are largely a joke. They look like kindergarteners designed them from infant toys, Pay-doh, and childrens' furniture. Everything about them is wrong. I just got a 2005 Chrysler Sebring Touring sedan for a company car. It had 6 delivery miles on it when I picked it up, and when I opened the door, sat in it and started the engine, it felt like a five year old car with a 15 year old dash design.
The Sebring's a V6 w/190 hp 4sp auto and weighs the same as my 96 Nissan Maxima SE. The Max has the same 190 hp, 4spd auto, but after 146,000 miles, it accelerates to 60mph at least a second quicker and is faster at all other speeds, gets 10% better fuel economy, and is far quieter at a 70-80 mph cruise on a smooth highway. We're talikng about a 10+ year-old Max w/146K miles vs a brand new 05 Chrysler. That's sad.
American car companies must not understand what benchmark means because when they "benchmark" a Camry, Accord, etc, their results seem so far off the mark it makes me think they never really benchmarked those cars in the first place.
Just rev up any Honda, Toyota or Nissan V6 and there's an unmistakeable sound and feel of goodness - they just seem right. Perhaps the most telling problem with American cars is that I find a four cylinder Accord superior to my V6 Sebring in virtually every way, despite their roughly similar prices. The Sebring handles and brakes well, and that is perhaps the only trait I really like about it (aside from the fact that it's not mine). Pushrods are fine for rental cars and big displacement 70's muscle cars, trucks and Corvettes, but with few exceptions they don't "feel" good in modern sedans, coupes and convertibles.
American car stylists seem to polarize their holdings - they make some beautiful and others flat out ugly or inappropriate (pontiac G6 is really nice looking but the GTO to put it politely, does not - what gives???). Japanese stylists are no better, perhaps a little worse, but I can forgive them that because everything else is so right about the cars they build.
Cars are like people. Some are nice and good on the inside, exude richness and sophistication but don't excite on the outside, while others excite on the outside, don't have much substance and have cheap unsophisticated tastes. I'll date the hottie for a while but marry the nice girl. That is to say I'll rent the American car but would only buy Japanese - until, perhaps five years from now if the good ol boys learn a thing or two.
My sentiments are similar toward German cars - they do everything right, interiors, quality feel, great handling/performance, looks, but their reliability (electronics) suggest they're still using Lucas (a bad thing for those of you who don't know).
Bottom line, the Germans need to source their electronics from the same companies used by the Japanese (then they'll get my money). The Americans need to look at what the Japanese, Germans, and now Koreans, are doing right, and then do that (instead of what they've been doing).
The Americans need to divorce themselves from pushrods in most applications, despite the economic benefits of using old engines long since paid for. Pride be damned. Forget rolling out new models for a few years. Sacrifice to make their cars worth buying new, and ultimately worth buying used years down the road. I get unsolicited offers to buy my 10 year old 146K mile Maxima maybe once every other month. I bet that wouldn't happen with a Taurus of the same age and mileage. Nuff Said. Regards, Deanie
P.S. Please respond. I want to believe there's hope for the American car (not just the Japanese ones built here).
From my perspective American cars are akin to the “blue light special”. A couple years ago I was looking at a Honda Accord and it’s American competition. For MSRP a Taurus was easily out classed by the Accord.
The problem with the American cars is you have to wait (sometimes not very long) for the 3-5K “sale”, I’ve seen some models with 10K off.
I would be thinking to my self if Ford spent an extra 4K on their 6cyl Taurus it may just be up to the Accord standard.
It seems as if the high end Taurus would compete against the low end Accord since it’s priced or sold for around the same price.
I remember seeing a Lincoln LS selling (not MSRP) at high end Accord prices. This would be a fair comparison of automobiles.
I think the new Fusion/Milan looks very competitive when compared to the Japanese. Not sure if they are more competitive because the Mazda influence or Mazda is better because of Ford either way, the automobile with the Ford emblem on it is looking much better to me.
Also where’s the mini-van (I mean a competitive one); this also applies to the German manufacturers I was “forced” to go Japanese.
In the past 15 years I’ve never owned an American car 3 German 5 Japanese
I applaude you for giving everyone a test drive, but a 10 minute drive can only tell you so much about a car, especially more advanced traits like understeer.
You have adjusted to your BMW, and it seems perfect because it's your car, and it fits like an old shoe.
The 3 series probably is the best handling sedan available. :shades:
But saying the 3 has superior ergonics to the IS or TL is crossing the line, and known sycophants C&D all but said if the IS350 had a stick, this would be a cake-walk for the IS over the 330i, even with a car full of Nuns wrapping you across the knucks!
You are the first to prefer german ergonomics over a Lexus or Acura interior.
Why not throw Audi under the bus as well? :confuse:
With that said I also like the Lexus and Acura interiors in a different sort of way.
Last Lexus LS I drove (late 90’s early 2000 or so) I swear had the same ventilation controls as a co-workers Corolla. I notice Acura using switches (window, sunroof, etc) that are used in the Civic.
This is just one aspect, but one that irks me.
With BMW you gain a certain exclusivity knowing that your controls are not pulled off of an economy box if anything, you get items filtered down form the 7 series ok, excluding the iDrive as an example
American car companies must not understand what benchmark means because when they "benchmark" a Camry, Accord, etc, their results seem so far off the mark it makes me think they never really benchmarked those cars in the first place.
I think that American companies Benchmark the competition, its just that when they realize how much it costs to build a product as good as the competition that they decide not to invest the money. I have said it before and I will say it again. American car companies cannot build a car as good as Camry or Accord for the same money. Its impossible for them given their cost structure.
Look, GM claims that it spends $1500 per car just on health insurance. GM claims that they spend more then $2 billion extra to buy parts from DELPHI instead of buying the same parts from a competitor. GM spends $75 per hour on UAW work force. Toyota spends about $50 per hour for its workers. Given this type of cost structure its IMPOSSIBLE for GM to build a car as good as Camry for the same money.
I think that consumers have come to realize that GM or Ford or Chrysler cannot and will not deliver a product as good as Japanies. Its not that they don't want to. Its not that American Engineers cannot design a car. Its just a question of cost structure. Good quality parts cost money. Nice interiors cost money. Even nice gauge clusters cost money. Its actually very simple and easy to understand why American consumers stay away from American cars.
We just don't want to support the overhead. I don't want to pay $1500 from my car purchase for Health Insurance for GM's workers. I have my own problems to pay for my own health insurance. I don't care that UAW charges $75 per hour for worker. ITS JUST NOT MY PROBLEM. Most American consumers have their own problems.
American Car companies like to pride them self on providing the "Gold Standard" in perks like health insurance and vacation. Well somebody has to pay for this "Gold Standard". Who do you think pays for all of the perks? Buyers of American cars thats who pays for all of these "Gold Standards."
The Ford 500 platform is all Volvo. Ford's line that it was co-developed is rubbish. Domestics have never engineered safety in their vehicles without the government being all over them. Ford is riding the Volvo coat tails in all matters related to safety. That is one of the reasons they shelled out $6 billion for the company back in 1999.
It is only a matter of time however before Ford ruins Volvo with its notion of commonality and use of inferior parts it likes to use on its domestic junk. Gas tanks falling off out from under the 500 and others won't be tolerated by Volvo customers.
BTW, Ford and GM are all about making execuses for their poor performance against Toyota and others. It isn't about health care, legacy costs or any of the other million excuses they offer up. The real problem with those two companies is the decades long mismanagement at the hands of inept executives. The trend continues at the hands of WCF2 and his highly overpaid counterpart at GM, Rick Wagoner.
Further, Ford talks more about GM than it does any other of its competitors. Most of it is of the well, we aren't as bad as GM variety. Ford talks out of both sides of its mouth with respect to GM. On the one hand they don't wish them any ill will but they take great comfort and even enjoyment whenever bad news for GM is announced. Sadly, they do not realize that as GM goes so likely they do as well. Downgrade for downgrade right on down the hill.
there is a recall because Ford whipped a supplier into submission and reaped inferior parts as a result. Just hope you aren't clocking out at 140 when the suspension snaps. Remember, the GT is the pace car for an entire company, cheap underpinnings and all.
I applaude you for giving everyone a test drive, but a 10 minute drive can only tell you so much about a car, especially more advanced traits like understeer.
Understeer is not an advanced trait...it's common place in just about every car. You can feel it when you enter a corner at twice its marked speed. hit a freeway off-ramp that's marked 35 at 70 and you'll know right quick if the car exhibits minor, moderate, major, or extreme oversteer, nose-dive, front-end bias, weight-shifting, etc. The most balanced car's i've driven in my price bracket are the Miata and S2000.
But saying the 3 has superior ergonics to the IS or TL is crossing the line, and known sycophants C&D all but said if the IS350 had a stick, this would be a cake-walk for the IS over the 330i, even with a car full of Nuns wrapping you across the knucks!
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that car mag writers somehow know what I like and feel better than me? Hardly. The IS350 is a nice, supple, fast Buick. It's neither sporty nor aggressive. It does not like to be driven hard and when one does so one is rewarded by numb steering, no roadfeel and a chassis that's about two generations behind the G35 and e90. Lexus simply can't construct a sports sedan, imho. Or at least they didn't with their first attempt (the Altezza was a Toyota). To each his own. But if I had to choose between an overpriced 40k Lexus IS350 or a G35 or even a Mazdaspeed6...the others would win. They're simply more driver oriented and more rewarding for a demanding driver.
You are the first to prefer german ergonomics over a Lexus or Acura interior.
I doubt that. Lexus interiors remind me of my Grandfather's Caddies and Buicks. They're soft, bland and warm...sort of like melted moca ice cream.
I prefer my interiors to be blues, blacks and grays. Hard angles on the dash, center console tilted toward the driver (the passenger's irrelevant), the leather must be taunt, the bolsters thick, the steering wheel thick, the seating position low. In short I like the interiors of BMWs, MBs, some Audis (the grays and blacks) and some VWs (grays).
Beige does not belong in a car. Wood never belongs in a car. Soft seats are an affront to the car gods. Dual climate control is for people who aren't willing to tell the passengers to stop whining and get out. Navi is worthless. Cupholders should not exist in cars.
Why not throw Audi under the bus as well?
I did. I ripped into the A4; it's way too soft and pudgy for my tastes. The A3 is fun but it needs Quatrro matched to its 2.0T and DSG.
Just hope you aren't clocking out at 140 when the suspension snaps. Remember, the GT is the pace car for an entire company, cheap underpinnings and all.
All of the Ford GTs that were affected by the recalls have been fixed.
We just don't want to support the overhead. I don't want to pay $1500 from my car purchase for Health Insurance for GM's workers.
Remember many Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans are produced in the US (and designed). They have to compete in the same market and with the same labor force.
I don’t know, but am guessing that Toyota workers in the US also have health coverage. With such a low unemployment rate they cannot afford to “stiff” the workers. The US must be a good place to produce cars otherwise Toyota wouldn’t be OPENING new plants; don’t remember the specifics around 3 or 4 plants over the next few years.
Toyota, just to pick on them, just seems to make cars the average buyer likes; I personally can’t stand them (I’d go for a Milan over a Camry any day).
I like many of the new domestic offerings not sure if I like them enough to put my money down just purchased two new cars this year both Japanese.
Please do not add pics to your posts that are wider than 500 pixels as they push the margins of the message area out under the video bar on the right.
If you have a larger image that you feel the class has to see full size, please just add a link in your post so we can view it in a new window and avoid the margin issues.
When the message area gets stretched out, it causes difficulty in reading posts that get stretched out under the right sidebar.
So please check the properties of images you are thinking about adding to posts before posting them. Too wide and I have to take them down.
Go into a bimmer forum and say that...FWD may be better for some during snow season but then the other 8 months they're left with a boring car.
Actually, one of the BMW front-drivers outperforms all of the BMW rear-drivers in Road and Track's slalom test. It is better than the M3, M5 and Z4. The new Honda Civic Si reportedly has fine handling and is fun to drive and will work well in snow.
Front-drivers can be fun to drive year-around if they are well balanced designs in terms of engine power and suspension/steering/brakes. Another front driver, Acura TSX, gets rave reviews from car magazines for its fun factor and good balance. It is one of the 10-best in annual Car and Driver feature. Front-drivers are atrocious in handling when large engines stuffed into them as per recent Edmunds review of Pontiac GXP with big V8.
Now if American brands offered front-driver autos with the handling and quality of the BMW, Civic and TSX, think that many folks that currently own foreign brands would switch to American.
This forum is full of comparisons between American Cars and Import cars. I have made many claims that American companies are not operating efficiently compared to Honda and Toyota. Lets take a look at delivery charges from each company. Delivery charge is something that every company charges to bring the car from its plant to the dealer. All of the cars and truck here are made in USA. Its easy to see that Japanese companies always charge less then Domestics. Why would that be? Are there complete idiots working in Domestic Shipping departments. Why is it that Toyota can ship its Tundra to anywhere in America for $605 while it takes Dodge $900 to ship its RAM.
Maybe there are some readers here that work for Big 3 and they can explain to me why there is such a discrepancy in shipping charges between Japanese and Domestics.
Midsize Sedans
Honda Accord $550 Chevy Impala $660 Chrysler 300 $675 Ford Taurus $685 Toyota Camry $540
Minivans
Honda Odyssey $550 Ford Freestar $730 Nissan Quest $605 Toyota Sienna $605 Dodge Caravan $715 Saturn Relay $740
Full Size SUVs
Ford Expedition $820 Chevy Tahoe $850 Nissan Armada $670 Dodge Durango $645 Toyota Sequoia $565
Midsize SUV
Honda Pilot $550 Chevy TrailBlazer $710 Ford Explorer $645 Toyota Highlander $605
Full Size Trucks
Ford F150 $875 Chevy Silverado $875 Dodge Ram $900 Toyota Tundra $605
Xrunner, BMW does not build or offer a FWD car. If you're talking about the mini, thst is built in the UK and is not a BMW. It'd wholly different car company that BMW bought.
The mini also happens to be crazy slow, have zero power (yes even with john cooper works), suffer from a ride like a skateboard and its interior ergonomics are ridiculously bad.
The TSX is also insanely slow. And it too suffers from some massive frontend plowing, poor weight distribution and understeer in corners.
One last thing, Mini quality? I'm with you on the Acura/Honda quality but the mini quality? The Mini is consistently ranked near the bottom for initial quality. Very poorly built cars (much like the cars of the parent company BMW). Yes, I just wrote BMW does not build quality cars. I strongly believe that, doesn't change the fact I'd gladly buy another one.
I don't think there are any easy answers to the problems of the big 2.5 . It's easy to see how many varying opinions there are on this thread. Not very many companies can appeal to everyone and stay profitable. {However Toyota comes to mind} It seems to me that the best thing that GM & Ford could do is to figure out what they do best and concentrate on that. ie big trucks and suv's. To me it's not so much that they become more innovative as much as they one up the competition in engineering. For instance,a lot of people credit Dodge for coming up with the mini van but who really cares about that when Honda came to the party late but just killed everyone with the Odessy. I also think that one of the reasons for the rise in popularity for Chrysler is because of the design and engineering talent of Mercedes.{reliability aside of course} so to completly dissmis the value of foreign input could prove fatal. I think time will tell what effect Volvo and Jag-Land rover has on Ford but I think it's allready showing in positive ways. The 500 getting a gold safety rating {Volvo} and they're interiors improving dramaticly {jag, land rover} allthough this is arguable to some. Handling has improved as well.{mazda 3} For me as a driving enthusiast, the design or look of a car enters in to the equation at the very end. For me driving dynamics are most important followed closely by ergonomics, safety, and dealer {buying,shopping} experience. I think things will turn around, but it will take time and most likely be painful for a lot of people. I feel burdened for those that will lose they're jobs. I believe that responsablity lies directly with those in charge of runing the company however. I think it as well irresponsable, and immature to guilt people in to buying an American car as a "duty of all Americans". All in all, I thinks it's nutty to have numerous badges {cadillac,mercury etc} only to increasingly lose market share in those brands to better made foreign models. Ultimately, cutting back won't do the trick. They still have to make a product that people want. And then figure out a way to always keep that loyalty. I know I've rambled but one more point. These company's came up at a simpler time in the world. Less choices and less complicated ones at that. The European and Oriental brands to they're credit have adapted to the times much quicker, and the rewards of that flexibility show in profits,as well as public perception. That's all folks......Dan
Responding to point that front-drivers are not fun. Examples were given of spirited foreign brand front-drivers. If American brands offered cars like these, and with quality/reliability, then current foreign brand owners would give a chance. BMW-owned Mini does have quality rating below average per Consumer Reports. Following are some comments from testers on Mini, Civic, TSX:
Mini (By Edmunds) Sports car handling, relatively roomy cabin, sunroof mode for convertible top, great stereo. Mini blows the top off of the Cooper and as a result pegs the needle on the fun-o-meter.
Civic Si (By Edmunds) Our Civic Si went to the test track the same day as a Corvette Z06, a Viper and a Ford GT, yet, it stayed with these high rollers in the slalom, running through the 600-foot cone course at almost 68 mph. This car engages its driver the same way a rear-drive BMW does. Although front-wheel drive, the Si responds immediately to every input and the standard limited-slip differential lets you get back on the gas sooner without upsetting your line. It's an affordable coupe with the intensity of something twice the price, the kind of car that has you feverishly scanning the map for obscure two-lane roads nobody's using.
TSX (Car and Driver)
Said that 06 car was fun and makes its owner happy to buckle up every day.
People have misconception that front-drivers can't handle and are not fun. True, if you load up a big V8 in Pontiac GXP. But, foreign brand models, such as above, prove otherwise.
Have you personally driven these cars? I've put several minis through their paces (a friend owns a JWCW version that i've driven on many occasions) and run the TSX many many times.
With the exception of the Si, which i have not driven and therefore have no POV on its handling, these other cars fail tp meet my idea of a good, poweful, luxurious, high-speed competent car. The TSX comes closest and yet given its handling and struggles to move at highway speeds I would opt for something else.
Given reviews and experience with Hondas other small cars, it seems safe to assume the Civic Si is loud and buzzy at 95-100 mph.
'But you've got to be in the right mood to keep up with the Si's frenetic pace. There were a few moments when we wished the engine would shut up for two minutes. We even cruised the Vegas strip in 5th gear just to get a little peace.' - Edmunds.com
Wow, that's plain lousy mileage. That points to gearing that keeps the engine way too high on the tach at freeway around town speeds (75+) and certainly for a drive to vegas on I-15 (85+).
This was in the auto section of my newspapers today:
Late 90's Mercury Sables have two spark plugs per cylinder and they are different. What is amazing is the the only difference is that one has Iridium plating on one part of the spark plug and the other has Iridium plating on a different part of the plug. Apparently one plug fires from the electrode to ground and the other fires the other way. The iridium plating reduces corrosion. All Ford had to do was plate both parts of the plug and there would be only one part number, probably more durable plugs and less confusion and no chance of a screw up. I am sure that some Ford engineer got a fat bonus for coming up with this cost saving, which when you take into account having two different part numbers and inventories probably actually cost money. I seems that aftermarket plugs do have all parts plated (and probably cost less than the Ford items and are more durable) so if I owned one of these cars I would replace the plugs ASAP with aftermarket ones and put this example of poor engineering behind me.
Just to let you know where I'm coming from, I grew up in the 1970s modding and street/drag racing small block Chevys; from time to time I still get called on to rebuild Q-jets. In 1983 I bought and restored a Bavaria 3.0, and since then I've only owned two domestic products-a five speed Thunderbird Turbo Coupe(used as a work beater) and a Wrangler TJ(which I still use as a commuter hack). To get to the point, my wife recently decided she wanted a small(under 180") four door SUV so that she could also make it out our half mile gravel farm road in inclement weather. Our choice had to have a moderate amount of true off-road capability and we wanted either a RWD with part-time four wheel drive or an AWD with a RWD torque bias-and we didn't want to spend over $32K. The only domestic that met our qualifications was the Jeep Liberty, but no dealer within 100 miles had a Lib with the off-road package(or even limited slip)-although they had dozens with chrome grills/wheels(must be a lot of Jeepin' pimps on the trails..) So, we narrowed our choices down to two very different machines: a 2005 Xterra Off Road and a CPO 2004 X3. We ended up with the Bimmer, deciding that the Xterra would serve better as a replacement for the TJ in a year or so. I'm more than willing to consider domestic products- if the Big 2.5 ever decide to build vehicles I want.
Consumers looking for a fun and good handling front driver would consider an American brand if it had the quality/reliability of a Honda Civic. People would be happy to pay around 20+K for a car that can outhandle the BMW 3 series as does the Civic Si. This is especially true for those who live in snow country. You have all the advantages of front-drive in winter and can have fun in the car for the whole year. American brands in the Civic price/size class such as Cobalt and Focus do not have the sophistication of the Civic. Ford probably did a better job in making a fun front driver than did Chevy. Unless Ford and Chevy put serious effort into refining their small front drivers, most folks looking for a good handling front driver will probably bypass their offerings and look at Civic or Mazda3.
instead of rambling on and on: 1) Increase Content/ Decrease options(this should then...) 2) Lower MSRP's. 3) for some cars, like Cobalt, HHR: Increae headroom(expecially when sunroofs are added), shoulder room, All room, and maybe up the MPG/0-60 times(especially for HHR). Maybe add alittle more down travel for steering columns on Malibu, HHR, Cobalt, etc,also. Seems alot of "American" cars are narrow/less head room than say Korean or some Japanese cars. 4) Get dealerships to act like they want your business.
That's it. Just some tweaks in size, and other minor issues, and the dealerships need attitude adjustments across the board, in my area, at least.
The new Corvette Z06's 505 hp LS7 doesn't have a gas guzzler tax and weighs 71 pounds less than BMW's 5.0 liter 500 hp V-10.
While I agree the LS7 is impressive, comparing it to BMW's 5.0L V10 is really an apples to oranges comparison.
Yes the LS7 avoids the gas guzzler tax. That has more to do with the gear ratios and drag coefficient of the Corvette than anything else.
The LS7 gets 2 miles per gallon less city and hwy vs. the LS2 powered corvette, and the Z06 is lighter
The LS2 in the CTS-V gets about 15/23. I'm guessing an LS7 in a CTS would be no more than 13/21, certainly receiving a gas guzzler tax.
I just finished reading an article about the STS-V and why Cadillac developed the supercharged Northstar to achieve a level of refinement beyond LS2 or LS7.
One other items: Like Chrysler. Dislike RWD. Caliber may be a hopeful for them? Also, build the Jeepster!
~~ end quote ~~
You don't like rear wheel drive??? I guess in deep snow and ice country ya need front wheel drive. That said, a Celica feels pretty good. Still prefer RWD.
The Caliber is going to look like a Matrix on steroids. Well at least more beefy, or truck like. If they do it right, the Challenger would be a welcomed car.
Back in the late seventies-when the Detroit automakers initiated their headlong rush towards FWD mediocrity-their PR flacks pumped out tons of advertising extolling the supposed "advantages" of FWD. The average uninformed car buyer swallowed that line and the Big 2.5 are now reaping the result-a generation of drivers who believe that driving a RWD car on any thing other than perfectly dry,level, and straight tarmac will result in certain death.
One of the major problems with Domestic Automakers is that they don't admit to any problems with their cars. Now I personnel had a problem with the Ford Transmissions. I owned a 1994 Ford Thunderbird with 4 speed automatic transmission. While the car it self was nice, it had a chronic problem with torque converter. It was called transmission chatter. In fact that was the main reason why Ford came up with a new transmission fluid called Mercon V instead of regular Mercon for these transmissions.
Here is an article about another common problem with Ford cars and truck with 4.6L engine. Its the plastic manifold failures.
Now why would consumers have to file lawsuits against Ford to get them to fix a common manufacturing problem. GM's piston slap problem is also very common and many law suits were filed against GM for this problem. Just take a look at a web site called
As consumers why we have to except this type of treatment? My sister ownes a 2003 Honda Accord. She had a transmission problems with car when the car had 44K miles. Honda fixed her transmission free of charge no questions asked. It was out of warrantee, but still Honda stepped up to the plate and gave her a new transmission free of charge. When I had problems with my 1994 Ford Thunderbird torque converter during warrantee period the dealer changed the transmission fluid. When I had the same problem 15K miles later, I was told that it would cost me $900.00 to fix this problem. There was no help from Ford what so ever.
Its the same with these plastic manifolds. Until lawyers got involved and lawsuits were filed against Ford to fix the problem for free, FORD would no step up to the plate to fix the problem. What is consumer supposed to think about Ford. Unless you have a good lawyer you have no chance with Ford. Any ways take a look at the article. Sometimes I think that Domestic car companies treat consumer complaints like TOXIC WAIST. They figure out what is cheaper: to hire lawyers to fight lawsuit or fix the problem. If its cheaper to fight lawsuit then that is what they do. Customer complaints mean nothing to them. Well here is another reason people buy imports. At least Honda and Toyota understand that customer is always right.
I guess in deep snow and ice country ya need front wheel drive Well, not if you run winter tires and have at least average driving ability. Anyway, if the snow is over 8-10 inches deep, you'll high-center almost any passenger car, no matter which axle is driven. I have some friends in Chicago who drive their Miata year round. Guess I should tell them that it places them in mortal danger...
yeah, I hope the Caliber looks good. when i first saw it, I thought' a corssover/wagon with a truck front end? What are they thinking? The more I have been reading about different engines, and looking at it in Red, Silver(Grey) and Orange(red really looks decent, from what I had seen online), and it has Nissan CVT, GEMA engine, and Mitsu Lancer(future Lancer) platform....and the price tag should be reasonable....could work(very long run-on sentence).
allpar.com has a lot of info.
I read it will be about 173+ inches total length. About compact car size.
I did enjoy driving the HHR, as it was sort of car like. Just the sunroof deal, raise the seat up 1 inch, and the liner was thisclose to the driver. get 2 people in it, and we were almost touching shoulders!
Decent idea, but, where's the people room? yeah, snow gets bad around here. have had 2-3 "storms" and some ice 2 -3 times in as many weeks. Lotta wrecks in SW Ohio this past week, roll overs(even a few cars).
yeah, FWD for me, or possibly AWD crossover. Suzuki has an Aerio replacement hitting the autoshow, sx4? Kind of short, though, maybe 13.5 feet total length.
Sometimes I think that Domestic car companies treat consumer complaints like TOXIC WAIST. Hey, if you REALLY wanna see a toxic waist, check out Wynonna Judd...
I Prefer FWD to 4wd or RWD. Just like I prefer Scion tC or a Civic over a Miata(as many other people seem to, FWD). Or FWD Camry or FWD Accord over RWD 300. Just some examples. Lotta "crazy" people out there seem to like these new fangled, not as fun to drive FWD vehicles.
We had a 77 camaro in Schererville, Indiana/ Lake County( 30 miles south of Chicago) Lot of Lake Effect Snow, when i lived there. Learned to drive in a 73 Impala, in fact. Also drove the family 79 Buick Regal. All RWD. Plus, I kind of like buying 1 set of tires every 2 years, versus 2 sets( say, 1000 dollars-2 years, for regular and then snow tires)....saves me 1-2K over 7 or 8 years of ownership. I'll take it.
RWD, unless I am racing someone, does nto appeal to me, just like my neighbors have AWD all the time Aerio sedan. Can't talk them out of it. Not for RWD, 4wd(lo-hi gear), or FWD. Hey, who am I to tell them to buy what I like?
Well, even if you bought me a FWD, I wouldn't drive it(well, maybe if it was a Thema 8.32). You see, FWD is a safety issue for me as well; if I had to drive one I'd probably die-of boredom... :P
I'd have to agree that for many, RWD is out of the question. In recent snow storms, all of the cars that were off the road in the ditch were RWD, including modern ones with traction control like G35s, etc. Most people don't drive their cars to any extreme that makes FWD a disadvantage, and in the end more people would prefer the advantages of FWD. Sorry.
Comments
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Your not kidding regarding the lack of rear seat room in the GP. Granted, before kids I could care less about rear seat room, but times have changed.
When I sat in the back of an 05 GP, I almost laughed it was so bad. For anyone 6' tall I would fear being rear ended while sitting back there. My head which had to be placed in the little area which allowed for an extra inch or so, placed the back of my head against the rear window. That has to be some type of safety issue. I certainly don't want to ride back there any longer than absolutely necessary.
The 06 Impala was certainly better, but I swear I remember my wifes 01 Impala as having more room in the back seat. Both felt like a compact in the rear seat when compared to the Ford 500. To bad Ford couldn't import a Volvo T5 or T6 engine along with the volvo chassis.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Is it that or could it be that many are not buying into the 4-door Charger, the "new-age" version of the muscle car (not my words, DCX PR department)?
There's a person here that has one, and two people that have Magnums (one a 6cyl, one a HEMI). The Magnums have received nothing but praise, the Charger, not so lucky. And everyone I have talked to hates the Charger, wanting it to be a 2-door. And on the same flip, everyone that has seen the renderings and spy shots of the Challenger really dig it. If it stays true, it may very well be in my garage sharing a space with my 66 Impala SS.
All of the weight, packaging, efficiency and low traction liabilities that ended the RWD family sedan era in the 80's still exist today.
And ushered in the mid- / full-SUV craze, which weigh more, have packaging issues, are equally as or less efficient, and can suffer from low-traction issues as well, (just like FWD BTW). So what was gained?
But do have a question, how do you know there's a small RWD under $30K car market? What concrete data suggests that? And please don't do the "if there was a market, then everyone would be building them..." or the "in the snow belt..." jazz.
Take a look at the following link if you are interested in steel used in Ford 500.
http://www.autosteel.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDispla- y.cfm&CONTENTFILEID=3382
Yes I really think that GM would sell more RWD Impalas then FWD Impalas. Here are a couple of reasons why. People living in Snow country assume that FWD cars offer better traction then RWD cars. This is not strictly correct. If you properly build a RWD car with 50% weight over the rear wheels, it will offer traction similar to FWD car. Traction depends only on the weight pushing down on the wheels. I often went skiing in Europe and there people regularly drive their BMW and Mercedes to the slopes on ice and snow covered roads. Its a question of weight distribution and winter tires. Traction control and stability control also help in RWD cars. You know there are plenty of places where it does not snow in America. There are millions of people living there. So what if it does not sell great up north, it will sell great down south.
Besides the market is saturated with FWD cars. Current Chevy Impala is a mediocre car that does not stand out in any way what so ever from the competition. If Chevy Impala was a RWD car, it would have hardly any competition. Many people simply don't like the style of Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger or Magnum. I think that Chrysler cars are fine, I just don't care for their hip-hop style. That would also explain that you don't see too many of them where you live. NO, I am taking about Chevy building a nice conservative Impala for middle class America that is RWD. Put the 5.3L V8 engine from the current car and sell it for under $30K.
FWD still superior to RWD in snow. In FWD, the front tires are with traction and are biting at the snow to get at the pavement. In RWD, the front tires cannot bite and are acting kind of like tobogans and want to ride up on the snow.
Back in 1999 when I bought my Intrepid, one of the reasons I chose it over an Impala was that it just felt a lot roomier inside. When you actually look at the specs, they're very close. But my knees hit the seatback in the back seat of the Impala, and the high beltline made it feel claustrophobic to me. I could deal with the interior room of the Impala, but I swear the Malibu feels like it has more legroom! I haven't tried out an '06 Impala yet...I was hoping they would've done something to it to increase the room a bit. It does look like it's a taller car than the '01-05.
The message where a Volvo salesman commented on my understanding of the 500 was
volvomax, "Any Questions for a Car Dealer?" #13315, 3 Aug 2005 11:14 am
I knew he had mentioned boron steel and I found it with that search.
I believe he is a real Volvo salesman. Read some of the leadup messages to determine what you think.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Go into a bimmer forum and say that...lol. They'll come after you lickety split. FWIW, most RWD owners I know swear that good snow tires get them through the summer just fine while also making life very pleasurable the other 7-8 months a year when there's no snow at all. FWD may be better for some during snow season but then the other 8 months they're left with a boring car.
I'll need to see a 5yr+ record of outstanding reliability, outstanding build quality, and that hard-to-describe feeling of inherent solidity when closing the door, that refined "ripping silk" engine note when accelerating onto a highway, that interior appearance that suggests artisans were at work designing and assembling the interior - even in a sub-$20k car. I want the car to feel and sound like new several years after it was purchased.
American car interiors are largely a joke. They look like kindergarteners designed them from infant toys, Pay-doh, and childrens' furniture. Everything about them is wrong. I just got a 2005 Chrysler Sebring Touring sedan for a company car. It had 6 delivery miles on it when I picked it up, and when I opened the door, sat in it and started the engine, it felt like a five year old car with a 15 year old dash design.
The Sebring's a V6 w/190 hp 4sp auto and weighs the same as my 96 Nissan Maxima SE. The Max has the same 190 hp, 4spd auto, but after 146,000 miles, it accelerates to 60mph at least a second quicker and is faster at all other speeds, gets 10% better fuel economy, and is far quieter at a 70-80 mph cruise on a smooth highway. We're talikng about a 10+ year-old Max w/146K miles vs a brand new 05 Chrysler. That's sad.
American car companies must not understand what benchmark means because when they "benchmark" a Camry, Accord, etc, their results seem so far off the mark it makes me think they never really benchmarked those cars in the first place.
Just rev up any Honda, Toyota or Nissan V6 and there's an unmistakeable sound and feel of goodness - they just seem right. Perhaps the most telling problem with American cars is that I find a four cylinder Accord superior to my V6 Sebring in virtually every way, despite their roughly similar prices. The Sebring handles and brakes well, and that is perhaps the only trait I really like about it (aside from the fact that it's not mine). Pushrods are fine for rental cars and big displacement 70's muscle cars, trucks and Corvettes, but with few exceptions they don't "feel" good in modern sedans, coupes and convertibles.
American car stylists seem to polarize their holdings - they make some beautiful and others flat out ugly or inappropriate (pontiac G6 is really nice looking but the GTO to put it politely, does not - what gives???). Japanese stylists are no better, perhaps a little worse, but I can forgive them that because everything else is so right about the cars they build.
Cars are like people. Some are nice and good on the inside, exude richness and sophistication but don't excite on the outside, while others excite on the outside, don't have much substance and have cheap unsophisticated tastes. I'll date the hottie for a while but marry the nice girl. That is to say I'll rent the American car but would only buy Japanese - until, perhaps five years from now if the good ol boys learn a thing or two.
My sentiments are similar toward German cars - they do everything right, interiors, quality feel, great handling/performance, looks, but their reliability (electronics) suggest they're still using Lucas (a bad thing for those of you who don't know).
Bottom line, the Germans need to source their electronics from the same companies used by the Japanese (then they'll get my money). The Americans need to look at what the Japanese, Germans, and now Koreans, are doing right, and then do that (instead of what they've been doing).
The Americans need to divorce themselves from pushrods in most applications, despite the economic benefits of using old engines long since paid for. Pride be damned. Forget rolling out new models for a few years. Sacrifice to make their cars worth buying new, and ultimately worth buying used years down the road. I get unsolicited offers to buy my 10 year old 146K mile Maxima maybe once every other month. I bet that wouldn't happen with a Taurus of the same age and mileage. Nuff Said.
Regards,
Deanie
P.S. Please respond. I want to believe there's hope for the American car (not just the Japanese ones built here).
From my perspective American cars are akin to the “blue light special”. A couple years ago I was looking at a Honda Accord and it’s American competition. For MSRP a Taurus was easily out classed by the Accord.
The problem with the American cars is you have to wait (sometimes not very long) for the 3-5K “sale”, I’ve seen some models with 10K off.
I would be thinking to my self if Ford spent an extra 4K on their 6cyl Taurus it may just be up to the Accord standard.
It seems as if the high end Taurus would compete against the low end Accord since it’s priced or sold for around the same price.
I remember seeing a Lincoln LS selling (not MSRP) at high end Accord prices. This would be a fair comparison of automobiles.
I think the new Fusion/Milan looks very competitive when compared to the Japanese. Not sure if they are more competitive because the Mazda influence or Mazda is better because of Ford either way, the automobile with the Ford emblem on it is looking much better to me.
Also where’s the mini-van (I mean a competitive one); this also applies to the German manufacturers I was “forced” to go Japanese.
In the past 15 years I’ve never owned an American car
3 German
5 Japanese
You have adjusted to your BMW, and it seems perfect because it's your car, and it fits like an old shoe.
The 3 series probably is the best handling sedan available. :shades:
But saying the 3 has superior ergonics to the IS or TL is crossing the line, and known sycophants C&D all but said if the IS350 had a stick, this would be a cake-walk for the IS over the 330i, even with a car full of Nuns wrapping you across the knucks!
You are the first to prefer german ergonomics over a Lexus or Acura interior.
Why not throw Audi under the bus as well? :confuse:
DrFill
With that said I also like the Lexus and Acura interiors in a different sort of way.
Last Lexus LS I drove (late 90’s early 2000 or so) I swear had the same ventilation controls as a co-workers Corolla. I notice Acura using switches (window, sunroof, etc) that are used in the Civic.
This is just one aspect, but one that irks me.
With BMW you gain a certain exclusivity knowing that your controls are not pulled off of an economy box if anything, you get items filtered down form the 7 series ok, excluding the iDrive as an example
I think that American companies Benchmark the competition, its just that when they realize how much it costs to build a product as good as the competition that they decide not to invest the money. I have said it before and I will say it again. American car companies cannot build a car as good as Camry or Accord for the same money. Its impossible for them given their cost structure.
Look, GM claims that it spends $1500 per car just on health insurance. GM claims that they spend more then $2 billion extra to buy parts from DELPHI instead of buying the same parts from a competitor. GM spends $75 per hour on UAW work force. Toyota spends about $50 per hour for its workers. Given this type of cost structure its IMPOSSIBLE for GM to build a car as good as Camry for the same money.
I think that consumers have come to realize that GM or Ford or Chrysler cannot and will not deliver a product as good as Japanies. Its not that they don't want to. Its not that American Engineers cannot design a car. Its just a question of cost structure. Good quality parts cost money. Nice interiors cost money. Even nice gauge clusters cost money. Its actually very simple and easy to understand why American consumers stay away from American cars.
We just don't want to support the overhead. I don't want to pay $1500 from my car purchase for Health Insurance for GM's workers. I have my own problems to pay for my own health insurance. I don't care that UAW charges $75 per hour for worker. ITS JUST NOT MY PROBLEM. Most American consumers have their own problems.
American Car companies like to pride them self on providing the "Gold Standard" in perks like health insurance and vacation. Well somebody has to pay for this "Gold Standard". Who do you think pays for all of the perks? Buyers of American cars thats who pays for all of these "Gold Standards."
It is only a matter of time however before Ford ruins Volvo with its notion of commonality and use of inferior parts it likes to use on its domestic junk. Gas tanks falling off out from under the 500 and others won't be tolerated by Volvo customers.
BTW, Ford and GM are all about making execuses for their poor performance against Toyota and others. It isn't about health care, legacy costs or any of the other million excuses they offer up. The real problem with those two companies is the decades long mismanagement at the hands of inept executives. The trend continues at the hands of WCF2 and his highly overpaid counterpart at GM, Rick Wagoner.
Further, Ford talks more about GM than it does any other of its competitors. Most of it is of the well, we aren't as bad as GM variety. Ford talks out of both sides of its mouth with respect to GM. On the one hand they don't wish them any ill will but they take great comfort and even enjoyment whenever bad news for GM is announced. Sadly, they do not realize that as GM goes so likely they do as well. Downgrade for downgrade right on down the hill.
Understeer is not an advanced trait...it's common place in just about every car. You can feel it when you enter a corner at twice its marked speed. hit a freeway off-ramp that's marked 35 at 70 and you'll know right quick if the car exhibits minor, moderate, major, or extreme oversteer, nose-dive, front-end bias, weight-shifting, etc. The most balanced car's i've driven in my price bracket are the Miata and S2000.
But saying the 3 has superior ergonics to the IS or TL is crossing the line, and known sycophants C&D all but said if the IS350 had a stick, this would be a cake-walk for the IS over the 330i, even with a car full of Nuns wrapping you across the knucks!
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that car mag writers somehow know what I like and feel better than me? Hardly. The IS350 is a nice, supple, fast Buick. It's neither sporty nor aggressive. It does not like to be driven hard and when one does so one is rewarded by numb steering, no roadfeel and a chassis that's about two generations behind the G35 and e90. Lexus simply can't construct a sports sedan, imho. Or at least they didn't with their first attempt (the Altezza was a Toyota). To each his own. But if I had to choose between an overpriced 40k Lexus IS350 or a G35 or even a Mazdaspeed6...the others would win. They're simply more driver oriented and more rewarding for a demanding driver.
You are the first to prefer german ergonomics over a Lexus or Acura interior.
I doubt that. Lexus interiors remind me of my Grandfather's Caddies and Buicks. They're soft, bland and warm...sort of like melted moca ice cream.
I prefer my interiors to be blues, blacks and grays. Hard angles on the dash, center console tilted toward the driver (the passenger's irrelevant), the leather must be taunt, the bolsters thick, the steering wheel thick, the seating position low. In short I like the interiors of BMWs, MBs, some Audis (the grays and blacks) and some VWs (grays).
Beige does not belong in a car. Wood never belongs in a car. Soft seats are an affront to the car gods. Dual climate control is for people who aren't willing to tell the passengers to stop whining and get out. Navi is worthless. Cupholders should not exist in cars.
Why not throw Audi under the bus as well?
I did. I ripped into the A4; it's way too soft and pudgy for my tastes. The A3 is fun but it needs Quatrro matched to its 2.0T and DSG.
All of the Ford GTs that were affected by the recalls have been fixed.
Remember many Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans are produced in the US (and designed). They have to compete in the same market and with the same labor force.
I don’t know, but am guessing that Toyota workers in the US also have health coverage. With such a low unemployment rate they cannot afford to “stiff” the workers. The US must be a good place to produce cars otherwise Toyota wouldn’t be OPENING new plants; don’t remember the specifics around 3 or 4 plants over the next few years.
Toyota, just to pick on them, just seems to make cars the average buyer likes; I personally can’t stand them (I’d go for a Milan over a Camry any day).
I like many of the new domestic offerings not sure if I like them enough to put my money down just purchased two new cars this year both Japanese.
If you have a larger image that you feel the class has to see full size, please just add a link in your post so we can view it in a new window and avoid the margin issues.
When the message area gets stretched out, it causes difficulty in reading posts that get stretched out under the right sidebar.
So please check the properties of images you are thinking about adding to posts before posting them. Too wide and I have to take them down.
Correction:
Often 50% better, but it is entirely dependent on the driver. But this is for a different forum.
Might want to try the Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected? discussion as a starting point.
Actually, one of the BMW front-drivers outperforms all of the BMW rear-drivers in Road and Track's slalom test. It is better than the M3, M5 and Z4. The new Honda Civic Si reportedly has fine handling and is fun to drive and will work well in snow.
Front-drivers can be fun to drive year-around if they are well balanced designs in terms of engine power and suspension/steering/brakes. Another front driver, Acura TSX, gets rave reviews from car magazines for its fun factor and good balance. It is one of the 10-best in annual Car and Driver feature. Front-drivers are atrocious in handling when large engines stuffed into them as per recent Edmunds review of Pontiac GXP with big V8.
Now if American brands offered front-driver autos with the handling and quality of the BMW, Civic and TSX, think that many folks that currently own foreign brands would switch to American.
Maybe there are some readers here that work for Big 3 and they can explain to me why there is such a discrepancy in shipping charges between Japanese and Domestics.
Midsize Sedans
Honda Accord $550
Chevy Impala $660
Chrysler 300 $675
Ford Taurus $685
Toyota Camry $540
Minivans
Honda Odyssey $550
Ford Freestar $730
Nissan Quest $605
Toyota Sienna $605
Dodge Caravan $715
Saturn Relay $740
Full Size SUVs
Ford Expedition $820
Chevy Tahoe $850
Nissan Armada $670
Dodge Durango $645
Toyota Sequoia $565
Midsize SUV
Honda Pilot $550
Chevy TrailBlazer $710
Ford Explorer $645
Toyota Highlander $605
Full Size Trucks
Ford F150 $875
Chevy Silverado $875
Dodge Ram $900
Toyota Tundra $605
The mini also happens to be crazy slow, have zero power (yes even with john cooper works), suffer from a ride like a skateboard and its interior ergonomics are ridiculously bad.
The TSX is also insanely slow. And it too suffers from some massive frontend plowing, poor weight distribution and understeer in corners.
One last thing, Mini quality? I'm with you on the Acura/Honda quality but the mini quality? The Mini is consistently ranked near the bottom for initial quality. Very poorly built cars (much like the cars of the parent company BMW). Yes, I just wrote BMW does not build quality cars. I strongly believe that, doesn't change the fact I'd gladly buy another one.
It seems to me that the best thing that GM & Ford could do is to figure out what they do best and concentrate on that. ie big trucks and suv's. To me it's not so much that they become more innovative as much as they one up the competition in engineering. For instance,a lot of people credit Dodge for coming up with the mini van but who really cares about that when Honda came to the party late but just killed everyone with the Odessy. I also think that one of the reasons for the rise in popularity for Chrysler is because of the design and engineering talent of Mercedes.{reliability aside of course} so to completly dissmis the value of foreign input could prove fatal. I think time will tell what effect Volvo and Jag-Land rover has on Ford but I think it's allready showing in positive ways. The 500 getting a gold safety rating {Volvo} and they're interiors improving dramaticly {jag, land rover} allthough this is arguable to some. Handling has improved as well.{mazda 3}
For me as a driving enthusiast, the design or look of a car enters in to the equation at the very end. For me driving dynamics are most important followed closely by ergonomics, safety, and dealer {buying,shopping} experience.
I think things will turn around, but it will take time and most likely be painful for a lot of people. I feel burdened for those that will lose they're jobs. I believe that responsablity lies directly with those in charge of runing the company however. I think it as well irresponsable, and immature to guilt people in to buying an American car as a "duty of all Americans".
All in all, I thinks it's nutty to have numerous badges {cadillac,mercury etc} only to increasingly lose market share in those brands to better made foreign models.
Ultimately, cutting back won't do the trick. They still have to make a product that people want. And then figure out a way to always keep that loyalty.
I know I've rambled but one more point. These company's came up at a simpler time in the world. Less choices and less complicated ones at that. The European and Oriental brands to they're credit have adapted to the times much quicker, and the rewards of that flexibility show in profits,as well as public perception.
That's all folks......Dan
Responding to point that front-drivers are not fun. Examples were given of spirited foreign brand front-drivers. If American brands offered cars like these, and with quality/reliability, then current foreign brand owners would give a chance. BMW-owned Mini does have quality rating below average per Consumer Reports.
Following are some comments from testers on Mini, Civic, TSX:
Mini (By Edmunds)
Sports car handling, relatively roomy cabin, sunroof mode for convertible top, great stereo. Mini blows the top off of the Cooper and as a result pegs the needle on the fun-o-meter.
Civic Si (By Edmunds)
Our Civic Si went to the test track the same day as a Corvette Z06, a Viper and a Ford GT, yet, it stayed with these high rollers in the slalom, running through the 600-foot cone course at almost 68 mph. This car engages its driver the same way a rear-drive BMW does. Although front-wheel drive, the Si responds immediately to every input and the standard limited-slip differential lets you get back on the gas sooner without upsetting your line. It's an affordable coupe with the intensity of something twice the price, the kind of car that has you feverishly scanning the map for obscure two-lane roads nobody's using.
TSX (Car and Driver)
Said that 06 car was fun and makes its owner happy to buckle up every day.
People have misconception that front-drivers can't handle and are not fun. True, if you load up a big V8 in Pontiac GXP. But, foreign brand models, such as above, prove otherwise.
With the exception of the Si, which i have not driven and therefore have no POV on its handling, these other cars fail tp meet my idea of a good, poweful, luxurious, high-speed competent car. The TSX comes closest and yet given its handling and struggles to move at highway speeds I would opt for something else.
Given reviews and experience with Hondas other small cars, it seems safe to assume the Civic Si is loud and buzzy at 95-100 mph.
'But you've got to be in the right mood to keep up with the Si's frenetic pace. There were a few moments when we wished the engine would shut up for two minutes. We even cruised the Vegas strip in 5th gear just to get a little peace.' - Edmunds.com
Road trip mileage is impressive. We got 25.5 mpg without trying, which is right in line with the 22 mpg city/31 mpg highway Honda estimates.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=108019/pageNumber=1?s- ynpartner=edmunds&pageurl=www.edmunds.com/new/2006/honda/civic/100677616/roadtes- tarticle.html&articleId=108019&tid=edmunds.e.roadtest.content...Honda*
Wow, that's plain lousy mileage. That points to gearing that keeps the engine way too high on the tach at freeway around town speeds (75+) and certainly for a drive to vegas on I-15 (85+).
In this vein, GM is the biggest purchaser of Viagra in the world!
Late 90's Mercury Sables have two spark plugs per cylinder and they are different. What is amazing is the the only difference is that one has Iridium plating on one part of the spark plug and the other has Iridium plating on a different part of the plug. Apparently one plug fires from the electrode to ground and the other fires the other way. The iridium plating reduces corrosion. All Ford had to do was plate both parts of the plug and there would be only one part number, probably more durable plugs and less confusion and no chance of a screw up. I am sure that some Ford engineer got a fat bonus for coming up with this cost saving, which when you take into account having two different part numbers and inventories probably actually cost money. I seems that aftermarket plugs do have all parts plated (and probably cost less than the Ford items and are more durable) so if I owned one of these cars I would replace the plugs ASAP with aftermarket ones and put this example of poor engineering behind me.
To get to the point, my wife recently decided she wanted a small(under 180") four door SUV so that she could also make it out our half mile gravel farm road in inclement weather. Our choice had to have a moderate amount of true off-road capability and we wanted either a RWD with part-time four wheel drive or an AWD with a RWD torque bias-and we didn't want to spend over $32K. The only domestic that met our qualifications was the Jeep Liberty, but no dealer within 100 miles had a Lib with the off-road package(or even limited slip)-although they had dozens with chrome grills/wheels(must be a lot of Jeepin' pimps on the trails..) So, we narrowed our choices down to two very different machines: a 2005 Xterra Off Road and a CPO 2004 X3. We ended up with the Bimmer, deciding that the Xterra would serve better as a replacement for the TJ in a year or so.
I'm more than willing to consider domestic products- if the Big 2.5 ever decide to build vehicles I want.
Well that is one way to get your work force excited about your product. Maybe that explains why GM workers actually think that GM products are decent.
The new Corvette Z06's 505 hp LS7 doesn't have a gas guzzler tax and weighs 71 pounds less than BMW's 5.0 liter 500 hp V-10.
If a person can be happy driving a car like that, god bless.
most folks looking for a good handling front driver will probably bypass their offerings and look at Civic or Mazda3.
I'd agree with you there. The Mazda3 (ironically based on the european focus chassis) is a sweet little car.
Chrysler
article one the Firepower
1) Increase Content/ Decrease options(this should then...)
2) Lower MSRP's.
3) for some cars, like Cobalt, HHR: Increae headroom(expecially when sunroofs are added), shoulder room, All room, and maybe up the MPG/0-60 times(especially for HHR). Maybe add alittle more down travel for steering columns on Malibu, HHR, Cobalt, etc,also. Seems alot of "American" cars are narrow/less head room than say Korean or some Japanese cars.
4) Get dealerships to act like they want your business.
That's it.
Just some tweaks in size, and other minor issues, and the dealerships need attitude adjustments across the board, in my area, at least.
Caliber may be a hopeful for them? Also, build the Jeepster!
While I agree the LS7 is impressive, comparing it to BMW's 5.0L V10 is really an apples to oranges comparison.
Yes the LS7 avoids the gas guzzler tax. That has more to do with the gear ratios and drag coefficient of the Corvette than anything else.
The LS7 gets 2 miles per gallon less city and hwy vs. the LS2 powered corvette, and the Z06 is lighter
The LS2 in the CTS-V gets about 15/23. I'm guessing an LS7 in a CTS would be no more than 13/21, certainly receiving a gas guzzler tax.
I just finished reading an article about the STS-V and why Cadillac developed the supercharged Northstar to achieve a level of refinement beyond LS2 or LS7.
Caliber may be a hopeful for them? Also, build the Jeepster!
~~ end quote ~~
You don't like rear wheel drive??? I guess in deep snow and ice country ya need front wheel drive. That said, a Celica feels pretty good. Still prefer RWD.
The Caliber is going to look like a Matrix on steroids. Well at least more beefy, or truck like. If they do it right, the Challenger would be a welcomed car.
Loren
Here is an article about another common problem with Ford cars and truck with 4.6L engine. Its the plastic manifold failures.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051217/AUTO01/512170310/1148-
Now why would consumers have to file lawsuits against Ford to get them to fix a common manufacturing problem. GM's piston slap problem is also very common and many law suits were filed against GM for this problem. Just take a look at a web site called
http://www.pistonslap.com/
As consumers why we have to except this type of treatment? My sister ownes a 2003 Honda Accord. She had a transmission problems with car when the car had 44K miles. Honda fixed her transmission free of charge no questions asked. It was out of warrantee, but still Honda stepped up to the plate and gave her a new transmission free of charge. When I had problems with my 1994 Ford Thunderbird torque converter during warrantee period the dealer changed the transmission fluid. When I had the same problem 15K miles later, I was told that it would cost me $900.00 to fix this problem. There was no help from Ford what so ever.
Its the same with these plastic manifolds. Until lawyers got involved and lawsuits were filed against Ford to fix the problem for free, FORD would no step up to the plate to fix the problem. What is consumer supposed to think about Ford. Unless you have a good lawyer you have no chance with Ford. Any ways take a look at the article. Sometimes I think that Domestic car companies treat consumer complaints like TOXIC WAIST. They figure out what is cheaper: to hire lawyers to fight lawsuit or fix the problem. If its cheaper to fight lawsuit then that is what they do. Customer complaints mean nothing to them. Well here is another reason people buy imports. At least Honda and Toyota understand that customer is always right.
Well, not if you run winter tires and have at least average driving ability. Anyway, if the snow is over 8-10 inches deep, you'll high-center almost any passenger car, no matter which axle is driven.
I have some friends in Chicago who drive their Miata year round. Guess I should tell them that it places them in mortal danger...
The more I have been reading about different engines, and looking at it in Red, Silver(Grey) and Orange(red really looks decent, from what I had seen online), and it has Nissan CVT, GEMA engine, and Mitsu Lancer(future Lancer) platform....and the price tag should be reasonable....could work(very long run-on sentence).
allpar.com has a lot of info.
I read it will be about 173+ inches total length. About compact car size.
I did enjoy driving the HHR, as it was sort of car like.
Just the sunroof deal, raise the seat up 1 inch, and the liner was thisclose to the driver.
get 2 people in it, and we were almost touching shoulders!
Decent idea, but, where's the people room?
yeah, snow gets bad around here. have had 2-3 "storms" and some ice 2 -3 times in as many weeks. Lotta wrecks in SW Ohio this past week, roll overs(even a few cars).
yeah, FWD for me, or possibly AWD crossover.
Suzuki has an Aerio replacement hitting the autoshow, sx4?
Kind of short, though, maybe 13.5 feet total length.
Have a good one.
Hey, if you REALLY wanna see a toxic waist, check out Wynonna Judd...
Or FWD Camry or FWD Accord over RWD 300.
Just some examples. Lotta "crazy" people out there seem to like these new fangled, not as fun to drive FWD vehicles.
We had a 77 camaro in Schererville, Indiana/ Lake County( 30 miles south of Chicago) Lot of Lake Effect Snow, when i lived there. Learned to drive in a 73 Impala, in fact.
Also drove the family 79 Buick Regal. All RWD.
Plus, I kind of like buying 1 set of tires every 2 years, versus 2 sets( say, 1000 dollars-2 years, for regular and then snow tires)....saves me 1-2K over 7 or 8 years of ownership. I'll take it.
RWD, unless I am racing someone, does nto appeal to me, just like my neighbors have AWD all the time Aerio sedan. Can't talk them out of it. Not for RWD, 4wd(lo-hi gear), or FWD.
Hey, who am I to tell them to buy what I like?
Happy Holidays .
If I were in the market, I would seriously check one out.