What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

rockylee

hahahahahahahahaha

The Cadillac STS cost approx. $18K to build. I haven't seen any discounted $40 something thousand. :confuse:

Rocky

snakeweasel

No reason to suspect that it would change.

snakeweasel

Pot meet kettle.

pony_pirate

Like I said a million posts ago, I work away from home and drive and am driven in a wide array of cars. Although the lower and mid priced American cars can't hold a candle to the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry, once you get into higher priced and/or more exotic vehicles, American cars give foreign cars a run for the money, and, as far as I'm concerned, lead the pack. For instance, I would rather have a Lincoln Towncar or Zephyr than a Mercedes or BMW sedan any day. I would rather drive a C06 Corvette or the new Mustang GT Premium than a Nissan Z, Mazda, or Jaguar.

rockylee

heard dat !

rockylee

Well Why is GM still #1 in the world. You still haven't told us what you drive ? I know it's not a GM car.

rockylee

So "All" GM vehicles are junk in your opinion ? Well that's your opinion. Alot of us americans still like the Big 3 and support it by buying there cars.

Rocky->I guess then I'm an idiot :confuse:

snakeweasel

Toyota is moving to #1 in 2006.

If they do so what?

rockylee

Well It's Still GM, Ford, Chrysler

Ford Motor Co. owns Jag, Volvo, Land Rover, Aston, and I believe a certain percentage of BMW. That still puts them at # 2 if you wanna get technical

Rocky

fintail

If it's my money buying new...I'd take neither.

If it's someone elses money, the STS would have to be a V...I'd consider it then.

People, PLEASE ignore the new yapper. If it doesn't get attention, it will vanish

rockylee

Fintail,

I agree. I wanna get back to some good ol' fashion car talk

Rocky

rockylee

fintail,

Whats your fav. car right now. one that you'd like to own ?

Rocky

gogogodzilla

Suwon City is located in South Korea, not Japan.

rockylee

That isn't including Volvo, Land Rover, Aston, Mazda, Jaguar. All of which are owned by Ford Motor. Co.

Rocky

fintail

That's a tough one...I have no intentions to buy anything new, the cost/benefit just doesn't work for me. I like AMG Mercedes a lot...I like tuned versions of most cars, even V series Caddys. I have no desire to own any SUV.

I like the E class diesel too

rockylee

I like the Twin Turbo European Audi diesel a little better.

Rocky

imidazol97

Never thought of hearses, funeral cars, livery cars as fleet. I learn something on this site every day.\

Interesting data site from R.L. Polk on fleet sales.

blueguydotcom

The Corvette ZO-6, Cadillac STS, DTS, CTS and CTS-V, Escalades are bargain basement cars.

The GTO, Grand Prix GXP, Buick Lucerne, Chevy Impala SS, also. The Saab 9-3 and 9-5, Saturn Aura.

I can put a high price tag on a piece of used toilet paper and give it a fancy name but that doesn't change what it really is.

imidazol97

But GE is French-owned...;
Magnavox, I don't know.

dhamilton

Ford owns no part of BMW. GM sells more cars than anyone. It's a fact but doesn't tell the whole story. The big three are all in serious financial trouble.{DC the least}
All that employee pricing did was lose more money for GM since they didn't think to sell the cars for more than it cost to make them. I'm not sure how the most loyal GM fan could rationalize this.
As far as The V series competing with the German competitors. Calling the journalists yellow is a little silly. Do you think Edmunds is yellow, because they came to the same conclusions. Have your own opinion, and drive what you wish. Just understand that when you make silly statements like that it devalues other opinions that may have merit.

rockylee

I guess I am a fan of high priced toilet paper. So are alot of other folks.

Rocky

rockylee

I just have the same conspiracy theorist attitude as alot of people when it comes to car magazine reviews. I value consumer reports as the most non-biased opinions by actual owners.

As far as my opinions which I clearly stated. I happen to like the Cadillac brand and was defending it against all the haters in this forum. If you like a Benz better than a Cadillac. That's great for you.

imidazol97

Rocky,

You were doing okay by me til you got to this statement: "I value consumer reports as the most non-biased opinions." bbbbbbaaaaaaaah. I don't believe CR nearly as much as a few others do.

rockylee

greedy ? I guess you haven't done any real research on American Manufactoring. The top 600 managers at Delphi wanted to pay themselves 900 million. I guess in a recent article today that's been reduced to 500 million. I guess that's not greedy for a company filing bankruptcy.

I guess if the unions ask for a little more than the median income, they are greedy. Most of the workers have more than just a H.S. education. I don't know where you get your info. from ????

Rocky

imidazol97

>most of these 30,000 workers that GM has put on the chopping block will continue to recieve (sic) their normal pay without actually working for up to 2 years, as per their contract.

Having workers not needed receive full or 95% or whatever of their pay is a major problem and has been for years. GM could have reduced cost greatly by reducing their production at times but that cost of idle factor made it cheaper to keep producing.

OTOH they need to get rid of management who make 1000s times their regular pay when they're cut.

rockylee

Well where else is their to get a good opinion from. If it's not consumer distorts, then where ????

The car magazines are definitly not a place where I'd get a sound judgement. When a American car rarely wins a award, a yr. later it gets trashed.

Rocky

rockylee

Exactly right back at ya !!!! Lets blame unions for the Big 3 decline like you said. You blaming unions only for the Big 3's decline is absolutely crazy.

Rocky

snakeweasel

I don't believe CR nearly as much as a few others do.

I have to agree with you on that, to many times CR has made he say "what they hey" now if CR said the sky was blue I would have to check to make sure.

anythngbutgm

Unions aren't responsible for the vehicle designs... A mid $20k Chevy could be put together by the worlds quickest, most efficient, and most detail oriented line workers, but guess what comes off the assembly line at the end...

Still the same el cheapo, chintzy interior under Cavalier bland sheet metal... Isn't the unions fault the design stinks.

Blame can be found on all sides IMO.

rockylee

If you've read my previous statements, that couldn't be further from the truth. I however do believe that if GM would build a inferior product which is soley controled by engineers, GM management, designers, etc. we wouldn't be talking about who's fault it is. Management has the power of control. The union employees build the product designed and have no control what mangement wants built. So I'd put more blame on management.

Rocky

imidazol97

Good common sense. Know the history of the source. CR has mostly hated GM since the 70s. Car mags are sports car lovers-they love driving fast cars.

Any to add?

jimmy81

Who cares what CR says anyway? If you determine what to buy based solely on CR's JDP and MotorTrend's opinions you're leading a very cloistered and wary life.

rockylee

I agree with you. Motor Trend seems to always give GM cars fairly bad reviews. More so than the others. I don't understand why ?

rockylee

True. The best judge is you. However reading what problems a particular car has before you decide to own one can be useful.

Rocky

imidazol97

Just my opinion: putting flame suit on, if needed.

During the 70s CR was a green group, very conservation of resources oriented. GM was the 9th largest gross product of the countries of the world; GM represented the military industrial complex which was the antithesis of what the conservationists stood for. Even today the conservation theme runs through some of the little blurb articles in CR.

dhamilton

OK, I think consumer reports is great to, but I think only in it's intended context. For instance, The STSv VS M5, CLS amg. Those cars are enthusiast cars. You can argue that all you want, but 99% of the buyers of those cars are enthusiasts. That is where I would lean towards an enthusiasts car magazine for that information. That's not to say that anyone should purchase because of a Car@driver article, anymore than someone should purchase strictly off a CR recommended. CR is coming at it almost strictly from a consumer angle. I think CR caries a lot of weight. But IMO it's more in the category of say Prius vs Insight.
As far as GM being the biggest seller. Once again correct. I've said this before but, Brittney Spears sells the most cd's, does that make her the best?

imidazol97

Just my opinion: putting flame suit on, if needed.

During the 70s CR was a green group, very conservation of resources oriented. GM was the 9th largest gross product of the countries of the world; GM represented the military industrial complex which was the antithesis of what the conservationists stood for. Even today the conservation theme runs through some of the little blurb articles in CR.

Sidenote: wouldn't it be hilarious if bbbbbaaa were one of the mods impersonating a real poster?

rockylee

They did give the GTO a decent rating because it's fun to drive. Motor Trend is in love with BMW and probably always will be because they are fun to drive. I however for one can't over look the sheet metal and interior. They are a "eye sore" in my opinion.

Rocky

imidazol97

BMWs spend too much time in the shop in this area. Their loaner cars are everywhere. The volvo and BMW dealer used to share a showroom; love at first sight for two high maintenance cars.

rockylee

I think he might of been sent to chase this Pro-Union Big 3 lover away ???? :P

Rocky

rockylee

Actually Britney has lost some of her apeal since she got married. Britney also never sold the most CD's. I however know what you meant

Rocky

PF_Flyer

A request... in the future, when an OBVIOUS agitator like that shows up, please just let one of the hosts know about it via email so we can deal with it. We don't all sit on the boards 24/7 so some stuff will hang around for a bit.

And IGNORING them will help a LOT too. Engaging with them only creates more of a toxic spill and putting on the hazmat suit is not much fun.

Back to the topic!

lemko

GM to Elvis and the Beatles - they sold a lot of records and the product was excellent.

Per Brittney - her marrying that Kevin or whatever his name is can be compared to GM hiring Roger Smith - both brought about their downfall. I'd say Roger Smith is one of the 20th Century's greatest monsters.

I believe in Consumer Reports as much as the Weekly World News supermarket tabloid.

I recall a friend of my best friend's brother who had a BMW 5-Series. Oh, the car was automotive nirvana when it was working properly, which seemed to be not that often. He later traded it for a Mazda.

I don't beleive all Benz owners are status-seeking social climbers, but 99.9% of them seem to be. There are genuine Benz enthusiasts like fintail, but his kind are rare. I don't hate my brother-in-law, but he did buy that S-Class for status and nothing else. Sometimes the guy can be an insufferable snob. He even demeaned the Lexus as a "pimped-out Toyota."

I didn't say anything bad about the Lexus LS430. I came very close to buying one almost 4 years ago. It did seem slightly better built than the STS I bought, but not $5K better. I liked the LS430 because it seemed very similar to, dare I say it, a Buick?

deanvit

I cannot see how MT reviewers would not fall in love with BMW's since they test drive on closed tracks and to the vehicles' limits. Such tests fall within BMW's strong points. Unfortunately, such reviews often falls short in addressing how a vast majority of us drive. Then again, MT probably would not sell many mags telling us how well the vehicles it tests can get us back and forth to work.

jkinzel

Sidenote: wouldn't it be hilarious if bbbbbaaa were one of the mods impersonating a real poster?
Forgive my ignorance, what is a “mods” as used in the above sentence?

aquaticexplore

Lemko, we finally agree on something: Roger Smith was the worst of a bad bunch at GM. No insiight, no innovation. The only one who comes close is Jack Smith, who I believe tied GM to Fiat. That was an utter disaster for GM, though it has revived Fiat.

Is this ship too big and set in its ways to turn around?

gtee

Well fintail, I'd take a regular STS preferably STS-AWD with a V-8 and all the bells and whistles over any Merc. I feel Mercs are a over priced Volkswagen Passat. If I was going to buy a german car, I'd buy a Volkswagen.

That is where you are wrong. Mercs are not over priced Volkswagen Passat. Volkswagen Phaeton is the over priced Passat. Nice car, but at $70K it cost too much and there was not market for it. Volkswagens don't have the image to support that price level, and it was canceled after three years.

Its the same with Cadillac. Nice cars, but not at these prices. Face it GM has an image problem. It has basically painted it self into a corner as a discount leader. GM's best innovation are DISCOUNTS. That is what they are know for. To me a Cadillac STS means nothing. I don't even understand why people spend that kind of money on them. If you want to buy a nice Domestic car, you can buy a Chrysler 300C with V8 for $30K. Its much cheaper then STS and has more power. Its also based on a Mercedes E-Class chassis. To me Cadillac STS looks a lot like new Ford Fusion, especially from the Front.

Luxury cars are all about status. For what ever reason you want people to look at you. You want exclusivity. Have you noticed that there are not too many sales on Rolex watches. To most people Cadillac mean nothing. Its not a status symbol or anything. To most people living in the South / West seeing a Cadillac simply means that here is another person who moved here from the Midwest and brought his car with him.

gtee

There are genuine Benz enthusiasts like fintail, but his kind are rare. I don't hate my brother-in-law, but he did buy that S-Class for status and nothing else. Sometimes the guy can be an insufferable snob. He even demeaned the Lexus as a "pimped-out Toyota."

So you admit that your perception of Mercedes is clouded by your personal problems with your brother-in-law. How does your sister feel about you calling her husband a snob? Do you get along with your sister? Are you sure you are not just rebelling against your family by buying a Cadillac.

nippononly

has missed something crucial posted about 100 posts back: Toyota has passed Ford in global sales. In fact, perception-wise, Ford is in the same boat as GM is, let's not forget that.

The image problem is immense, because it is created so slowly and will only go away equally slowly.

Does anyone think it hurts GM to be lumped in with Ford in this way, or it hurts Ford to be lumped in with GM this way (in the public eye)? Or neither?

imidazol97

A recent post poked fun at the Cadillac someone brought with them from the Midwest. That emphasizes that different portions of the country have different car values.

Here in the "antiquated?" midwest a Cadillac does have status value. A real Toyota Lexus has more value to many and equal status to some.

The Mercedes has lost in those demographics. They are still bought by certain other groups and driven as if they are the ultimate by a few--not a group that's going to last. They are just faux social climbers with current jobs and lease payments. The same group loves Jaguars based on the older Jags having had status value. The little Jags are popular; a few by the large Jaguars and the problems. Used to have a coworker with one of the 12v stretched Jags--it may have had aluminum body panels IIRC.

Many of these status purchases appear to be used purchases to my unstudied eye. A Mercedes ain't what it used to be for status. Give me a Lexus 430 with quiet understatemetn of its worth and luxury appearance over the MB and Jags. Much of the loss in status in the Midwest is because of all the baby M's and Jags they brought out.