What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

snakeweasel

I know several people who drive foreign cars that like NASCAR.

As for NASCAR comparing to F!, how many F1 cars do you see on the road. In theroy NASCAR cars are everyday cars. NASCAR got its start with moonshine runners compeating in races with the cars they ran shine in (yes i know they were modified cars but they were modified real world cars). NASCAR has its roots in the everyday car while F1 doesn't, thats why it appeals to more people.

FWIW auto makers have always tested and proven new ideals on the race track.

that being said to NASCAR drives have to plot out a trip with only left turns?

andre1969

actually, I don't think very many people buy the base model with the 2.7, although a lot of them go into rental fleets. At one point, something like 40% of 300 sales were the Hemi model, leaving the base, Limited, and Touring models to scrap for the remaining 60%. Still, I've seen a few base 300's around. A guy at work bought one for the style.

I think Chrysler should dump that 2.7 pronto, though. Now that the Sebring/Stratus have been cancelled, the base 300/Magnum and the rental versions of the Charger are the only ones that use it. And since the Sebring/Stratus replacements are going to have a lot of Mitsubishi content, I doubt that they'll be using 2.7's. Even if there was a market in the 300/Magnum/Charger class for an engine weaker than the 250 hp 3.5, they could just take the 3.5 and de-tune it to like 225 hp or something.

lemko

Also, the NASCAR drivers seem more like everyday people while F-1 drivers are almost seen as European nobility. I think almost all open-wheel racing has a rather elitist image. Racing is most definately a rich man's sport, but NASCAR still retains its blue-collar roots in its image.

gmfan

I have lived in Atlanta my entire life, and you are wrong about this generalized statement. There are sections inside City limits that are old money that only drive Cadillacs and Lincolns. The new money folks drive the foreign crap thinking they have something to prove. Wal-Mart is in all sections of Atlanta suburbs, but if you go outside city limits, say 50 mi outside Atlanta, then you statement holds water. In my section of Atlanta, the vehicles in Wal-Mart are all types. Trust me, I know because I was volunteering ringing the Salvation Army Bell outside Wal-mart for a few hours last weekend.

ahightower

I used to drive a 2003 Mitsubishi Outlander. GREAT vehicle. Excellent ride and handling, tight as a drum. Never a squeak or rattle. Responsive, high-revving MIVEC engine. Too bad it didn't come with a manual transmission that year.

I sold it because with my new job I get a company car. Now I drive a 2005 Dodge Stratus. I absolutely hate it. Pitifully slow 4-cylinder engine. Crappy seat fabric. Unsupportive foam. Sloppy handling chracteristics. I like it because it's a fringe benefit and I have a corporate gas card... But I would NEVER buy this thing with my own money. I would gladly drop a few extra bucks for a base Camry, Accord, or Altima with a manual transmission (the Altima interior is supposed to be greatly improved with the mid-cycle refresh, but even in the older ones with the cheesy interior, at least it was fun to drive).

So having said that the American quality myth is over, I will say that applies only to the newest models, and primarily to the upper-end models. I haven't been in a Cobalt or a newer Focus, but the sub-$25K range is where the domestics need to focus some resources. This Stratus is a DOG.

lemko

...in Philly really doesn't mean anything. There are plenty of buy-here-pay-here lots that sell late model luxury imports. There's no way to tell if a guy is a successful businessman from the Main Line or a poseur from Kensington.

andre1969

I know I've mentioned this before in the past, but a couple years ago, my Dad, whose last car had been a 1966 Pontiac Executive back in the '80's, finally decided to get a car. The Stratus was one of the cars we looked at. I'm a Mopar fan, so I at least wanted to give it a try. We went down to the sales guy that I bought my Intrepid from, and took out a 4-cyl SXT. This thing was HORRIBLE! About the only things I could think of in its defense were that I like the style of it, and these things are actually pretty roomy, for my body at least. Still, it just had a cheap, fragile feel to it, like a small car trying to be passed off as a bigger one. And yeah, the engine was slow, noisy, and unrefined. If they're going to go through the trouble to make a DOHC engine that's that bad, what's the point? Just throw in a cheap pushrod and call it a day!

I have heard that the nicer models with the V-6 have good road manners, excellent emergency handling, and great braking, but that's about it.

My Dad ended up getting a used '03 Regal LS sedan from their used car lot.

dieselone

As for NASCAR comparing to F!, how many F1 cars do you see on the road.

I guess to refine the question. What does NASCAR do for Ford, GM, and DMC, other than an outlet for advertising? I'm asking in earnest.

With F1, I can see a direct correlation between the powertrains BMW and Ferrari use in F1 & and the powertrains they use on the street. Are they exactly the same, no.
But, you can see F1 tested and derived technology in engines and transmissions in both makes.

Sure, Ferrari's and M series BMWs are not every day cars, but IMO, they have more in common with an F1 car than any thing else has with NASCAR, except for maybe 4 tires.

Where was the F1 syle paddle shift sequential shift transmissions come from? Certainly not NASCAR. I guess you can say a GP GXP actually has something influenced from F1 and not NASCAR with the paddle shift buttons on the steering wheel.

Regarding the NASCAR / domestic car ownership question.
I'm not a NASCAR fan and I have two substandard quality domestic vehicles.

ahightower

Agree.

I guess "quality" defined as "it won't fall apart and strand you" is fine. Nobody else in my company driving a Stratus has had any problems with it. But "perceived quality", as in nice-feeling materials, supportive seats, good handling, and fun to drive, is where the domestics still need to work on the details.

snakeweasel

I guess to refine the question. What does NASCAR do for Ford, GM, and DMC, other than an outlet for advertising? I'm asking in earnest.

I answered that question, auto manufacturers have always used racing, NASCAR included, to test and prove new ideals and concepts.

http://www.dailyhome.com/news/2005/as-talladega-0429-rjordan-5d28x1503.htm

vwdriver2

Are you saying that the Nascar Ford Taurus is not the same as the one they sell at the dealer...?:)
You are absolutely right on everything...maybe back in the 1950's the cars close to the ones you could purchase at the dealer with some modifications..but nowadays...with all of the Nascar rules and standards...most cars are identical and the only difference are the decals. Of course the better teams have more money for research, track time..etc, but the tires are the same..the engines are pretty much the same..(restrictors, etc.)..the chassis can't be that different from each other..the shape of the cars don't even look like the ones on the streets. Anyways..I am not really much of a fan of racing in circles..its actually kind of boring..I am not saying that it doesn't require skill...but it is just boring to watch. Fed-ex series, IRL and F-1 on the other hand...now that's racing!

gtee

I should have stated that you cannot compare NASCAR with F1 in terms of "technology" used. NASCAR might make great entertainment and that is fine. I am just saying that NASCAR does not stand for technology.

nippononly

You say that style alone will save the Americans, but then you go on to talk about the absolutely GARBAGE Stratus SXT (I couldn't agree more with your opinions on that less-than-stellar vehicle, BTW). The ways that car falls short is IMO the way most current sub-$30K American cars fall short, to a larger or smaller extent.

Yes, the Americans need style, but they need content and materials quality more. And in GM's case, definitely some powertrain work too. Hopefully they can do all that and ALSO throw in some style, as they will need eye-catching designs to draw people away from the import brands that have treated them so well. Once they ARE drawn away to egive an American car a try, those other items had better be there in spades, or they will merely shake their heads ruefully and head back to the import dealership.

Edit...I feel that some American models that sell in high proportion to rental fleets, like Stratus, Impala, and others are designed on purpose to be cheap rather than better than the competition, which partially contributes to the problem. The domestics will never succeed as long as they are designing some models to be fleet specials. Look at the Charger - they make a 2.7-equipped model just for fleets, then they go on to build a 3.5L version (SXT?) with exactly the same ultra-cheap interior. Big mistake.

gtee

FWIW auto makers have always tested and proven new ideals on the race track.

What 'Ideals' did auto makers tests and prove on the race track? Do automaker even have Ideals?

gogogodzilla

Too many people confuse quality with reliability.

Quality is having nice materials used in the construction, the fit and finish, and having good performance and handling.

Reliability is simply having the car work as it's designed and not break.

American cars have decent to good reliability, but their quality is horrible.

A new Mercedes has an outstanding level of quality, but it's reliability... ehh, not so good.

I just really wish that more people understood the difference.

snakeweasel

Look several posts up I gave a link to a story about it.

From your comments I take it your a little biased about things.

snakeweasel

You got a point there. what would you rather have a car that has cheap cheesy interior parts that gets you home each and every cold winter night or one that has a real nice interior that has you sitting in the cold waiting for the tow truck twice a month?

gogogodzilla

Preferable both, which is why so many US consumers are buying Honda and Toyota.

It's just amazing that GM doesn't understand this. They stress 'Quality' but mean reliability. And then proceed to completely ignore the real quality in their pursuit of the cheapest parts possible.

Sometimes a few extra pennies is all it takes to convert a potential buyer into an actual buyer.

lemko

I think I'd rather have a car with a cheesy interior that can get me to and from work without a problem. A high-quality car with a beautiful interior that doesn't run properly and leaves me stranded is a objet d'art!

GM's really coming around on the interiors! The Cadillac DTS interior is truly a quantum leap over the old car and the Buick Lucerne's interior totally demolishes that of the former LeSabre/Park Avenue. Therefore, they do have reliable cars with good quality.

snakeweasel

In this example both doesn't exist.

asafonov

But it is true that CR gives rebadge clones of the same model widely different ratings. One example of that was the old Geo Prizm/Toyota Corolla, which was literally a rebadge of a Corolla turned into a GM car, and the GM car never got good reviews while the Corolla was always a best pick or whatever.

I have to disagree with this. CR AFAIK always recognized that Geo/Chevy Prizm was a rebadged Corolla and rated it the same. I am not a subscriber but a Google search produced the following CR links to support this:

The best used vehicles under $15,000, 03/2003
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/used-cars/the-best-used-vehicles-under-1- 5000-1995-or-newer-303.htm
(includes 01 Prizm and 00-01 Corolla)

The best and worst used cars, December 2005
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/used-cars/used-cars-best-and-worst-1205.- - htm
(Prizm is at the top of the article and the only car with a picture)

nippononly

Now they just need to let go of the 3800 engine and pop in the 240 hp 3.9 as the base engine, and the Lucerne will be most of the way to competitive.

They ought to do that BEFORE Ford puts its new 250 hp 3.5 Duratec in the Five Hundred next fall and makes that the base engine, with a 6-speed automatic or CVT for less money than the Lucerne.

That would put it slightly below par in the powertrain department compared to the Avalon and the 300 Touring. But I don't think they have any plans to do this. The article linked above by carlisimo uses stronger language than I would use, but I mostly agree with the general sentiments expressed.

nippononly

Well, I was actually thinking not of the general lists, but rather side-by-side comparisons of the specific reliability charts. But I do not feel like playing the my-link-is-better-than-yours game, so I will concede the point. My statement was based on a general recollection, and my surprise at the time that the GM car could be rated worse when the two cars were identical (except for a few parts as mentioned above - GM always uses its own batteries and radios, and a few of its own interior trim bits, in models it clones from Toyota).

bumpy

The Cadillac DTS interior is truly a quantum leap over the old car and the Buick Lucerne's interior totally demolishes that of the former LeSabre/Park Avenue.

GM isn't competing against the Deville and Park Avenue. It's competing against the E350 and GS430.

ahightower

I concede. Nearly all cars for sale these days are "reliable". "Quality" is different. Perhaps it is more subjective. Then, so is value.

Regarding my Stratus, it is a 5-year-old design. Even still, with a few more beans under hood, more supportive seats, and even a leather wrapped steering wheel, it would "feel" nicer and be more enjoyable day-to-day.

However, as someone else said, I'd rather be in a cheap Dodge that gets the job done than a lovely VW that breaks down every other day. About the only thing that hasn't gone wrong with my buddy's GTI is that nifty sunroof dial thing. But that's what gets the auto journalists' attention. Those of us in the real world on tight family budgets sadly have had to forego the sensory delights and rely on JD Power more than Car & Driver.

But the newer American cars have it all. Nice materials and they are as reliable as ever. Examples include the new Cadillacs, Buicks, Chryslers, Pontiacs, and from what I have seen online, the new GM full-size SUVs and pickups. Which is why, coming full circle, I feel that stand-out styling will get people to try the new domestics, and come to appreciate the new levels of both "reliability" and "quality" of American cars.

asafonov

Were they EXACTLY the same? I sat in a mid-90s Prizm that had an uglier center console than my family's '92 Corolla

In the late 80's they were exactly the same car built on the same assembly line. I don't know about different model years. Even Consumer Reports said that they were the same car.

From 1986, I believe, Chevy Nova/Geo Prizm/Chevy Prizm was built at the same NUMMI plant in Fremont, CA as the Corolla and used most Toyota parts (engine, transmission) but slightly different sheetmetal and interior and possibly a different battery.

Corolla and Prizm were redesigned for 1993, so the 1992 car and a mid-nineties one were of different generations.

andre1969

if they just took the Stratus and threw maybe 50 bucks more into the interior, a bit into suspension upgrades, and put a better base engine in it (is the Mitsu 2.4 any better than the Mopar 2.4?) it would've made a world of difference with the car.

Also, 4-cyl models had drum brakes in the back while the V-6 models had discs. That's something I never understood. Wouldn't it be cheaper for the automakers, in the long run, to just standardize more? Instead of the redundancy of offering both drum and disc brake setups, it seems to me they'd hit a greater economy of scale by just making them disc across the board. And this isn't just a Chrysler thing. Ford was doing it with the Taurus. Oddly, the '96-99 had disc in the back, at least as an option. But for 2000, they went to drum in the back for sedans, but kept discs for the wagon! :confuse:

andre1969

On the '85-88 Nova and the '89-92 Prizm, the rooflines were different from the Corolla. And for some reason, while the Corolla was redesigned for 1988, the Nova held onto the old design that year. Still, mechanically they should have been the same.

I have a friend who used to have a '97 or so Prizm, and he said that there were some interior parts that were different compared to the Corolla. I forget what, though.

snakeweasel

Speaking of the 500 with the 250 HP 3.5 and a CVT Ford would do well if they can configure the CVT to have an option to mimic a manual transmission the way some autos can. It would make it a better car for mountainous or hilly areas as well as for passing and other performance operations.

blueguydotcom

Style.


One word: Bull. I don't care how sexy a car is...if it's got a GM bowtie or a ford blue oval or...I don't even know what a DaimlerChrysler logo is...I lose interest fast.

asafonov

Well, I was actually thinking not of the general lists, but rather side-by-side comparisons of the specific reliability charts. But I do not feel like playing the my-link-is-better-than-yours game, so I will concede the point. My statement was based on a general recollection, and my surprise at the time that the GM car could be rated worse when the two cars were identical (except for a few parts as mentioned above - GM always uses its own batteries and radios, and a few of its own interior trim bits, in models it clones from Toyota).

I was never a regular reader of CR so you may be right on this. A differently sourced battery can make a difference. I know first hand that insurance is considerably more expensive on the recent Prizms compared to Corollas - perhaps because of low resale and higher probability of totaling the car after an accident?

I think I remember CR rated same-year Villager and Quest differently.

fljoslin

if they just took the Stratus and threw maybe 50 bucks more into the interior, a bit into suspension upgrades, and put a better base engine in it (is the Mitsu 2.4 any better than the Mopar 2.4?) it would've made a world of difference with the car.

Also, 4-cyl models had drum brakes in the back while the V-6 models had discs. That's something I never understood. Wouldn't it be cheaper for the automakers, in the long run, to just standardize more? Instead of the redundancy of offering both drum and disc brake setups, it seems to me they'd hit a greater economy of scale by just making them disc across the board. And this isn't just a Chrysler thing. Ford was doing it with the Taurus. Oddly, the '96-99 had disc in the back, at least as an option. But for 2000, they went to drum in the back for sedans, but kept discs for the wagon!

I agree with what you have said. However, so much of the automotive business is marketing and trying to squeeze every dime out of a sale. I commented earlier in this thread about the late 90's Sables with two different spark plugs which were identical except for where the Iridium plating was. Absolutely stupid, but may have saved $0.01 or $0.02 per plug! Every one knows that disc brakes are better, so they should cost more and be on the upgraded models. The actual cost difference between drums and discs is again probably very small. There is a point where forcing the cost reductions just hurt in lost sales, but I am sure that the bean counters do not look at that side of the equation.

highlander7

asafonov,

Interesting summary from CR on the best and worst used cars.

CR Good Bets

84% have Japanese name plates, 37% are Lexus/Toyota
When you add Toyota and Honda's numbers, about 6 out of 10 of their cars are Good Bets.

CR Bad Bets "several years of below-average reliability"

50% are GM brands.

GM should have Toyota build more models for them. At least they will get reliablilty and the perception of quality that they had with the Chevrolet Prizm. The only other car listed as a good bet for GM was the Pontiac Vibe. Did Toyota help with that model?

.

bumpy

The only other car listed as a good bet for GM was the Pontiac Vibe. Did Toyota help with that model?

Now that's comedy.

nippononly

yes, Vibe is a rebadged Toyota Matrix, only in this case GM had more input on the interior design. The mechanicals are strictly Toyota Corolla, again except for the battery.

asafonov

CR Bad Bets "several years of below-average reliability"

50% are GM brands.

And many of the rest on this list are Europeans.

One thing to keep in mind, though, that this is historical data - many models on these lists date from the mid, if not early 90s. I have no experience with Euro-imports but would state the Domestic 2.5 or 3 have vastly improved in the last 5 years.

englishmike

Hi my first post so go easy on me! I have the proud tast of probably being the only english guy on this forum? Anyway my point is this where you can buy American cause if you don't who will, MG Rover and LDV vans both gone within 6 months of each other and these in recent years: TVR, Jaguar, Bentley, RR, Austin, Austin Healey, Triumph etc.... Because people saw the post war strikes, rationing low wages, millions of men short to do the job and so on. To this end the product suffered. But do not say our spirit was finished in 1916 as I read in one post on this forum! Most people would have given up but no not us, we diversified we are still the 4th largest economy on the planet all from this little island, we do not really manufacture anything any more we sell more finance and weaponry than anyone else.

America and Europe need to watch carefully the Chinese are coming and no one can stop them GM Ford BMW Audi VW etc wil all fall to the chinese. Diversify or Die. Thats the final nail in the British mass car market we could not compete on price with child labour and sweat shops, and quite frankly we would not wish too.

I love the US I have friends there I live near San Francisco for a while a few years back, so seasons greetings from England

snakeweasel

America and Europe need to watch carefully the Chinese are coming and no one can stop them

Didn't they say the same thing when the Yugo came over?

fljoslin

we are still the 4th largest economy on the planet

Latest news is that China has overtaken Italy and may already have overtaken the UK. They make so much money they cannot even count it!
Labor costs in China will rise and they are more susceptible to higher energy costs since they are about 1/8 as energy efficient as the US or Japan (8 x the energy for each $1 of GDP).
Just say mao -I mean no.

kurtamaxxxguy

The 96 prism did have different interiors than the corollas of the time. Biggest difference were internal HVAC controls - dials instead of levers. Also the plastics were a little more chinzy.

My '96 prism lasted 6.5 years. It was getting buzzy towards the end as most of the plastic interior trim parts had loosened up in their mounts and tended to rattle over bumps. But other than the brake rotors going off-round and EGR valve dying, the car was very reliable over its 75K miles - just like the Toyotas it was based on (my previous '83 camry lasted 9 years with only two big problems - timing belt breaking and defective front rotors).

Not so the '03 Saturn ION or '04 Chevy Malibu I have owned. The ION from start had rattly ill fitting trim, engine misfire during start and transmission shift grabs - was replaced, then bad dealer service resulted in replacement being declared a lemon. The Malibu has had its entire steering gear (columm, tie rods, steering rack) replaced at just 30K miles, the transmission is suspect, and the rear brake rotors have warped - it's close to being declared a lemon too.

goodegg

e Chinese are coming and no one can stop them

Ya need to be a bit more optomistic mate. We're not just gonna sit by and watch the paint dry. American business is the strongest and most robust in the world. The auto industry needs a kick in the pants sure. Our inane legacy costs are killing us, but are nothing compared to near-socialist Europe. But this will get resolved (bankruptcy?) and the auto industry will streamline and be poised for the future.

Not sure about where you are, but the sun's shining here.

gogogodzilla

Why didn't your companies relocate production to India?

It was a former British colony, so they could've sold the move somewhat by toughting that they were, at least, still loyal to the idea of Britain.

The pay scale would have been similar to that of China, yet the transport costs would have been less (India isn't as far away from Britain as China).

And they would have been supporting a democratic country against communist China.

Besides, would any of the company employees objected too much to being relocated to India? They drink tea, play cricket, and speak the Queen's English...

asafonov

I liked the interior of my 96 bought-used Prizm (in its price class). Sold to a family member in 2003 at 125k miles and she still drives it at 150k now.

The newer (2002) Prizm that I drive now is definitely a little more rattly and chintzier on the inside than the old one, though it is definitely peppier, due no doubt to the manual transmission and a VVT-i engine (the old one was, unfortunately, a 3-speed.)

xrunner2

MG Rover and LDV vans both gone within 6 months of each other and these in recent years: TVR, Jaguar, Bentley, RR, Austin, Austin Healey, Triumph etc....

Remember seeing old British comedy movies with Terry Thomas and more than one of them illustrated labor unions and how they could stop production.

jimlockey

Watch out GM, Ford & DC the far east is taking over.

highlander7

englishmike,

So far looks like they are going easy on you, this forum can be brutal. England is one of the few countries in the world that support United States policies, they are a true ally, we need not to forget that, thanks for joining the forum. so much for politics...............

Probably 90 plus percent of the folks that are driving BMW, Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes and others would not doubt buy the domestic brand if they made what we wanted, if it had reliability and a decent resale value. You buy a $55,000.00 Cadillac and its worth less than half that in one year. Drove my 2002 Toyota 4Runner Sport Edition for two years, paid $30,500., sold for $25,000. It had 37000 miles on it, it was a great vehicle. That same 02 4Runner is selling at dealerships today for more than I sold it for in 2004. That is because of supply and demand and Toyota's reputation for quality.

While GM and Ford are importing millions of vehicles the so called foreign or import brands are making millions of vehicles in the USA. My uncle's Mercury Grand Marquis is made in Canada, my friends Chevy Avalanche is made in Mexico. What is American anymore? At least if it is made here American workers are getting paid to build them.

Now post more often Mike, good to hear from you.

dglozman

What is the American car? Is it made in America? So Honda Accord should be considered one. Or is a Ford(American company) that is made in Mexico? Or is Chevy that imports engines from China?

Please somebody explain....

nortsr1

Welcome EnglishMike! Keep on posting.... and.... seasons greetings to you, also.

quikkash

The answer is simple. GM, Ford, and Chrysler can take back market share the same way the Japanese took it from us; build quality vehicles with features people want, and price them below the competition. Once people have faith in the brands again, and the models become more desireable, prices can begin to creep back up. To give credit where credit is do, the American companies have come a long way on quality (but they can't quit yet). The key now is to make their models more desireable.

gtee

From your comments I take it your a little biased about things.

OK, I read your article and now I see what was the problem. You were talking about IDEAS, but kept writing IDEALS. Me asking if a company has IDEALS does not make me biased. It just means that you don't read what you write. Go back and check your posts. Every single time you wrote IDEALS.