"American consumers and government should help provide a level playing field for American Companies to compete"
And the reason is UNIONS! If American companies would get rid of them they would be able to compete with foreign manufacturers. And please don't tell me regarding the benifits and rights unions fight for. It is not 1920's. Unions were effective then, and they hurting our economy now. Getting unrealistic pension benefits that what unions care and that what cost companies like Ford or GM. Instead of spending those money to actually improve their products they spending for unreasonable and unrealistic retirement and pension benefits.
What if you would not like their cars, would you continue to buy it? Good question! To me, a car or truck is a tool. It does not invoke emotion. I have no intention of portraying an image with my car or truck. I typically buy my vehicles cash, drive them for 10 years, and don't worry about resale value. I have a '98 Ford Explorer and a '97 F-150. Both are very reliable and well made. Both do their jobs every day with no major problems. I would buy another Ford product in a second. Fortunate for me, since these have been reliable I don't need to buy another vehicle. If I was buying another vehicle, I would buy one from a pool of my customer’s products. I would consider only the ones that would benefit my customers, and ultimately me. I would select the best fit for me from that pool.
Not too many Americans are thinking like this...I know that I am different. My family and friends constantly remind me. However, several of them are now at least putting thought into their purchases. Thought about how is this going to ripple through the economy, rather than what is in it just for me.
Bravo, precisely well put, herr kevmo 1958. Now go, get "on" to the joyfully wonderfull no speed limit 5,000 miles of silk smooth German Autobahns (before old, desinitizing age arrives and then physically so declines) and that we could have had here. But what our vastly smothering girlimen and girliwomen panty waist Authorities all refuse, and continue to reject all Continental European sanity of the professional like and learned driving enthusiasts
There are many here who are blaming unions for all the woes of American industry. Many of these same people probably believe all the horror stories about what a terrrible corporate citizen Wal-Mart is. However, it is the Unions that are painting the bad picture of Wal-Mart, because they flatly refuse to unionize. You can't have it both ways. Personally I believe there are many problems with unions in this country today. They have become an industry in themselves and serve to protect themselves. I work for the federal gov, which has many unionized employees. In my experience the union at my intitution does very little except to represent disgruntled workers who want a free ride. The American manufacturer is being placed at a competitive disadvantage in a worldwide marketplace, and we need to look hard at the causes. GM pays out $1600.00 in health insurance benefits for every car it makes. I don't know the figure it pays in pension benefits, but I am sure it is huge. Foreign car makers don't pay these penalties because they have socialized medicine and pensions. People in this country need to wake up soon. We pay nearly twice as much per capita on healthcare as any other country!! However, we rank low on the lists of life expectancy, infant mortality, etc. We allow the CEO's of our corporations to enlarge there salaries to over 100 times that of the average employee in their business, and they proceed run the company into the ground, only to escape with a golden severance package.
And here we scratch our heads wondering why the American auto maker is in trouble??? I think it is America that is in trouble, in case nobody noticed. In the first 225 years of this country (up til 2000), we managed to accumulate $5.9 trillion in total debt. During the 8 year reign of King George (2000-2008), we are on pace to nearly double that figure.
While the Zephyr and the triplets are fine cars, head and shoulders above the Lamented Taurus, I find it funny how a supposed "Luxury Brand" like Lincoln has to fall back to being competition for the B&B Accord and Camry...
The Zephry CAN be comeptition for luxury brands but then the car must be positioned like the G35 was a few years ago. Roll out a Zephyr that's RWD, has 310 hp from an NA 3.5, a 6 speed auto (or 7), navi, bluetooth, etc and all for 33-34k. Then they'll get looks from TL, G35 buyers. Right now there's now value proposition in getting a lincoln zephyr.
Ford forgets they're the outside brand (the korean brand in the mix), so they need to content the car more than similarily priced competition. People have to see either a better car for the same money or a similar car for far less money.
Until Ford/GM get that, their cars will be second choices.
Again, Lexus LS400, G35, Hyundai...these are keys to the kingdom. Ford chooses to ignore estblished patterns.
They also copied lots of products and sold them here and ended up eradicating the US market for US built products.
But a few here would say that's okay to copy; it's just the market economy. The US companies should have done better, cheaper, longer, shorter, whatever criticism works.
Here is another question for you. What if one of your customers is Honda or Toyota? Whoud you buy their products as well?
You sound like a lawyer, and I am on the stand...
Another good question As I said before, the majority of domestic suppliers for Japanese domestic auto production are whole or partially owned subsidiaries of the parent (Bodine Aluminum, TG Missouri etc) The Japanese don't buy much American designed manufacturing software, so it is not likely that my customer would be Honda or Toyota. If it was the case, I would follow the hierarchy in my previous post:
1. American Owned / American Made 2. American Owned / Foreign Made 3. Foreign Owned / American Made 4. Foreign Owned / Foreign Made (last resort)
I did not make this up; this is the hierarchy devised by that of published author Roger Simmermaker, a regular guest on CNN w/Lou Dobbs, and Fox News w/Neil Cavuto.
It's obvious, from quotes of many Union execs this week, the Union wanted to hurt New York for X-mas, and the hardliners are confused as to why they aren't still crippling the city by breaking the law. :mad:
Good call DrFill You are saying this issue is a National problem, not just an Automotive problem. It's important to all of us because we are all economically connected. Autos invoke emotion and passion to the buyer, that's why we are so hard on Ford and GM. The guys in NY will be forgiven, as soon as people can get back to work, but the problem still goes on...If we are one nation, then we need to solve this together, not trash each other.
Remember, whatever you do for a living can be done as well by a foreign company, as soon as they figure out how to apply the Japanese model to your business.
In fact, it may be fair to speculate that the Japanese domination of the US auto market will be short lived. Now that the Japanese have shown the way, the Chinese will copy the model and execute in a matter of 10 years, 20 years faster than what it took the Japanese. It's always easier for the second one through...
Americans were not loyal to themselves, why would we think they would be loyal to the Japanese manufacturers?
Ford and GM have been providing a decent living for hundreds of thousands of Americans for over 100 years.
Granted, but is that sufficient reason to give them a free pass to a competition-free future? Bad management decisions and bad negotiations have led these two to delay taking a hard stand until now. My family has been involved with GE for over 60 years. Why are GM/Ford not like GE? They lacked vision and a strong leadership. They kept putting off the uncomfortable, GE did not. GE is one of the best run companies in the world, GM/Ford possibly among the worst. Sorry no free pass for them, it's time to pay the piper. As you said correctly.. Prepare your children to pay the price for our ( GM/Ford's) short sighted economic polices.
I'm sorry if you must suffer for their earlier weaknesses but I understand your position as an indirect supplier.
My reply is this-What do you do for living?
I was in your position a while ago but closer. I was a direct sole-supplier to both Chrysler/Ford and indirectly to GM as you are. In my case it was body panels, subframes and other parts. I tried to give them every opportunity to keep my business but except for a '93 Escort four out of five other vehicles were horrible failures.
I am not going to continue to give them my money if they wont reciprocate with problem-free vehicles.
Your points 2 & 3 are not logical. Emotionally understandable but not logical. Why should DC's foreign-owned facilities be allowed to remain while the other foreign-owned facitities be closed? Why do you not think the transplant facilities compete fairly? It's only business. What if... GM went to say OK and said listen we are going to close a bunch of factories in MI, would you like us to build a state-of-the-art greenfield plant here? What kind of breaks will you give us? GM has this opportunity why not use it? They choose not to take advantage but Hyundai does.
Again your points 3 & 4 are emotionally understandable but illogical. Why is foreign ownership of facilities in the US bad but in the case of GM and Ford ownership of facilities overseas it's acceptable? Either both are bad or both are good. Why a difference?
Finally you keep coming back to this statement regarding vehicles built at the transplants:..'Final assembly is a mere fraction of the total value' .
This is just wrong. As a former direct supplier of steel to the automakers I know that the largest percentage of material and parts comes from US-based companies. It is not a 'mere fraction' it's the majority. I'm thinking that you see steel, aluminum, glass, rubber, leather, fabric all suddenly appearing from overseas then being assembled at the plant. That's just not correct. The materials and parts are made here by US workers.
"Not too many Americans are thinking like this...I know that I am different. My family and friends constantly remind me."
My heart is with you, kevmo, and my buying history partially bears that out. I generally buy Fords or Toyotas, but because they seem to be the best of their kind to me. (Ford best American brand, Toyota best Japanese brand). My experience with them has born that out.
However, I am not going to buy American if the cars are junk. Fortunately, that's not been the case, but if there's no Domestic offering that works for me, I have no qualms about reaching over the ocean to get what I need.
Thanks kdhspyder-You have the last word. We can agree to disagree. The future will prove us wrong or right. Just so you know, I didn't make any of this stuff up. All taken from many hours of books, articles, interviews delivered by some very, very smart people who have studied this for years.
Your opnion obviously counts, as you have lived it.
TONS of negative PR when you try to Kill Christmas (MTA), or are slow to help GM/Ford out (UAW). Not that the execs deserve a great deal of help, but you are cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
Have to see the big picture, and not get too greedy.
When I ask other car buyers why they prefer Toyotas and Hondas, the answer I always get back is reliability, in particular longterm reliability. And when you look JD Powers' VDS, CAA's old surveys and Cons. Reports surveys its pretty hard to conclude that the average Civic, Accord, Camry or Corolla wont be more reliable than its Ford or Chevy counterpart, and often they started buying Hondas and Toyotas after bad experiences with an unreliable domestic in the 80s or 90s.
Practically all car manufacturers have improved their #defects/vehicle over the last 25 years but Ford, GM and Chrysler have been chasing a moving target. Honda's and Toyota's quality have been continuously improving as well.
As far as "What will it take?" is concerned - at this point, I think the domestics' 1980 market shares were theirs to lose and they've been losing it through a certain level of hubris and arrogance since then. You have a generation of people who have only ever driven Toyota and Honda and that's now what they expect - in terms of price, reliability, fuel economy and depreciation.
You're dealing with a purchase a lot of people only make every 5-10 years, so that'll take a long period of improvements in these areas to turn their decline around, if it's even possible.
European makes are more niche products - just look at their sales volumes - and have more to do with fashion and desire than practicality. You can easily pay twice as much for a luxury European vehicle as for a Camry, but do you get TWICE the safety, TWICE the mpg, TWICE the reliability, half the depreciation, etc ? Clearly not; and people buy the European luxury marques for entirely different reasons.
(not my idea, read on joelonsoftware.com) and there was not much comment, except that few or no non-exotic imports sold above or at MSRP. This was not the point. By not having fire sales, red- or blue- light specials, or other gimmicky incentives, the premium import brands are sending the signal that their product is strong, and company's financial position is solid - even if their cars sell close to invoice, as apparently is the case with many Accords. In a sense, Honda and to a lesser extent Toyota, rather than GM/Ford, have adopted at least part of the WalMart approach - no fire sales, just consistent prices.
It's obvious, from quotes of many Union execs this week, the Union wanted to hurt New York for X-mas, and the hardliners are confused as to why they aren't still crippling the city by breaking the law
I grew up in Canada in the 70's and 80's. Seems like there were strikes every week. Every one there went on strike; trash strikes, bus strikes, ferry strikes, nurse strikes, truck driver strikes, doctor strikes, public employee strikes....... It is also that way in much of Europe. Feel lucky that it is not like that here!
Don't fotrget that the MTA Union members contribute nothing (0%) to their medical costs or pension costs. Also, doesn't breaking the law usually result in painful consequences. Where are they?
The only thing I cant comment on is the frequency with which you see $100K cars since I dont live in CA. I will say that considering the low production numbers of some of the cars you are talking about I would have to assume you cant be seeing too many of those models unless the enture model run is sold in SoCal.
"I wouldn't buy it because it's cramped, ugly, not very useful, not efficient, not luxurious and still too expensive for a Ford. Maybe for 20k I'd at least take a test drive. Though I'd never buy it. "
Very funny, but that proves my point. The Ford GT (I'm not a fan) is a better value than any other car in its price range and can outrun cars that cost twice as much. You have to give Ford credit where its due. You are making my point for me. People who are completely biased against the Big 3 (as many people in CA apparently are) arent going to look at their products period. You can talk about reliability, quality, engines, safety, fit/finish, styling or whatever else you want but nothing the Big 3 makes would attract a Detroit hater like yourself. That is fine, to each his own, but dont try to act like the decision is based on some type of rationality or objective reasoning. The rationale is simply that people like yourself are too concerned about what other may think of your ride to drive something that isnt considered impressive by your peers. Nothing wrong with that, but dont take it out on the Ford GT.
Your statements about Cadillac have no basis in fact. Cadillacs sales and image are much improved in 5 short years. Your statement about cadillac being "2 generations" behind the Europeans is laughable and cant be substantiated. Cadillac is already seen as being more serious about making sports sedans than Audi, and possibly MB. MB has been making AMG cars that were supposed to compete with BMWs for years but they neglect handling and responsiveness and spend all their time on neck snapping hp. The CTS-V and possibly STS-V are more driver's cars than the AMG cars or the Audi S cars based on what I've read. BTW, if Cadillac is two genrations behind the Bavarians, who many generations behind are Lexus and Acura? Read some of the revews of the CTS-v from when it came out, Automobile mag (and others) clearly said it was sportier than the C32 and in some cases the S4. Cadillac has essentially caught up to everyone except BMW in about five years. The XLR-V and '08 CTS will put them even closer. You personally don't like Cadillacs so I dont see why you would test drive one just to prove that it was as bad as you suspected. Your review of a Cadillac about as objective as a conservative Republican review of a Micheal Moore movie. I dont like the Camry so I'm not going to waste time test driving one just so I can tell everyone that it was as dull as I thought it would be.
"Quality is about perception. The perception still remains that GM/Ford/Mopar are not quality cars - power, ride, interior materials, ergonomicas, etc"
Seriously, what are you basing that on? almost all cars are good on ergonomics these days, with the Europeans possibly being the exception. If you cant figure out how to operate a GM product within 2 minutes than I would say you, not the car, may have a problem . Interior materials were a concern, but with the newer models (GM and Ford) I think that is being addressed. Not every import has great materials or interior design. Mitsu, Mazda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc. are no better than any American car and I doubt you could come up with any examples to prove otherwise. Power? Heard of the Impala SS, Grand Prix GXP, CTS-V, 300c, mustang, Vette, STS, XLR, GTO, Escalade, Cobalt SS, IOn redline, etc? I guess not. That was a sample of the underpowered cars offered by the Big 2.5. In fact when you compare hp available at any given dollar amount, typically the domestic cars will win. There arent too many sedan available under $33K that can run with a 300C or Impala SS.
ToyoHonda lead in hybrids and resale value, those are the only two things that can be said about them without fear of contradiction. At least for those who bother to let facts interfere with their townhall posts.
You need to separate image from actual car attributes. For example, a Bentley is far more impressive (maybe even in San Diego) than an LS430 but in reality a Bentley is much more expensive, more unreliable, more thirsty for gas and less luxurious than an LS430. Your argument seems to be that the fact that sophisticated CA residents see all domestic cars from Cobalt to Z06 as rentals proves that those vehicles are in fact inferior to any import. The Big 2.5 have a bigger image problem than they do product problem, in fact the stereotypes really dont even match up to the vehicles anymore.
Someone asked if Cadillac had ever beat any imports in comparisons. The SRX beat the Cayenne, FX45 and Toureg in a comparo. The CTS beat about 6 imports in R&T in 2004, the CTS-V beat the C55 and the STS-V beat the CLS55 in C&D's latest issue. MT also compared the STS to the 545 when they first came out and basically declared the contest a draw.
does that apply to Solstice, Escalade, 300/Magnum/Charger, XLR, G6 convertable, Sky, GTO, Ford GT, Grand Cherokee SRT8 and CTS-V?
Didn't think so. Give me a break. Other than Hybrid technology there isnt much else from the Japanese worth emulating. The big 3 surely isnt looking towards them for styling direction.
By not having fire sales, red- or blue- light specials, or other gimmicky incentives, the premium import brands are sending the signal that their product is strong, and company's financial position is solid - even if their cars sell close to invoice, as apparently is the case with many Accords. In a sense, Honda and to a lesser extent Toyota, rather than GM/Ford, have adopted at least part of the Walmart approach - no fire sales, just consistent prices. I agree 100%. If you shop at Walmart, odds are that a week or a month later the price for the same items will be very similar, so there is no feeling of getting burned by a price drop. Also, the price that you pay will be very competitive, probably the best value for you money. This is what Honda and Toyota do. When will the Domestic automakers get their MSRP's in line with the real value of the vehicles? I recently saw a new Pontiac Montana van with an MSRP of $35K for sale for $26K and a one year old one for $15K. I would guess that the real value of the new vehicle is about $20k! That still gives 25% depreciation in one year.
Solstice = Miata, an idea that is 15 years old now
G6 conv. = Camry Solara, again a car that is now into its second generation awaiting a third
Sky = Most promising product out of GM in my driving years, but see Solstice...
CTS-V - Chasing BMW with this one, not the other way around. Too bad the 10 cent interior doesn't hold a candle to a Kia, much less the Bimmer. You are buying a big motor strapped to a Cavalier... Japan will strike with the IS500 or what not within the next year. I don't think they are aiming for Caddy on that one. Everything points to the M3 for inpiration.
SRT-8 - Whao big motor in an SUV. Umm let's see, BMW X5 4.6 & 4.8, ML55, Cayenne? Cherokee lost its elegance with the redesign, the new model is as cookie cutter bland as an Explorer.
And only in America is the Escalade relevant. Accross the globe, the glorified Chevy is a laughing stock for it ridiculous size, Gaudy attributes, and cheapo Chevy pickup roots. Again, you are paying for a motor strapped to a mediocre product.
The GTO is a 5 year old Aussie. Took zero effort on the parts of GM America to bring this car to market. Who wants to follow that?
The 300/Charger/Magnum traces its roots to a Mercedes Benz E class. While I respect and actually like DMC products, it shouldn't be credited only to Chrysler, as something like that wouldn't be nearly as solid if eferything was still based on the K car or even the cab forward Intrepid platform.
The GT is a marvel and a bargain. No arguments there.
Handles well, rock solid on the road, very quiet interior, smooth ride, good acceleration, very nice interior and dash appointments. Never been in a Mazda 6, but the Zephyr is far preferrable to the Chrysler 300, which is a tub, with poor handling, lousy loose suspension, lousy acceleration, tacky interior, mediocre sound insulation, and crappy looks. I'd rather have a Zephyr than a comprably priced Camry, which tend to be frumpy.
The Ford GT (I'm not a fan) is a better value than any other car in its price range and can outrun cars that cost twice as much. You have to give Ford credit where its due.
Hardly. I'd rather a 911 turbo, thanks. Better interior, usuable interior space (4 seats), quieter, more luxurious, better built (porsches are nearly bulletproof) and a car that's fit for a long drive to Vegas or a jaunt around a track. Thanks, I'll stick to the "supercars" from europe.
arent going to look at their products period.
Actually, I did test drive some american makes the last two times I bought (May of 03 and November of 03). Before I buy my next car - within the next 5 months, I'll go drive the fusion/zephyr and Charger.
nothing the Big 3 makes would attract a Detroit hater like yourself.
I'll still look. If it impresses me, I'll change my tune. You aren't getting a car purchase for me requires a vehicle to be just shy of perfect when it comes to handling, roadfeel, ergonomics, seating position, extras, power, transmission, seating, trunk space, fuel efficiency.
At this point, nothing I have driven in prep (A3, A4, G35, IS350, C class, TL, TSX, mazdaspeed6, jetta, passat, accord v6, 330i e90, RX8, WRX, STi, Legacy GT) for my next car compares to my current car. Nothing. What I want is so very specific.
If American car companies can build a RWD car that seats 4, does 60 in less the 6 seconds, has a smooth NVH-free engine, a 6 speed manual, gets 30+ mpg on the freeway, can travel smoothly at 100+ for extended stretches, is exceedingly athletic in the twisties, has xenon headlights and in general feels like a vault all for less than 40k, I'm interested. No such beast, as far as my experience exists from 95% of the makes out there.
Your statements about Cadillac have no basis in fact. Cadillacs sales and image are much improved in 5 short years. Your statement about cadillac being "2 generations" behind the Europeans is laughable and cant be substantiated.
It's totally subjective. I drive a Caddy and laugh at how poorly it's assembled and drives. The CTS is a flat out joke vis-a-vis everything from Japan and Europe.
I've driven the CTS manual. It's a lousy car. Plain and simple. It's not on par with anything from Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, MB, Subaru, Mazda or BMW. This is subjective. You may feel otherwise. I know for my money the CTS is garbage. I've driven it hard and it's not a composed or decent car.
Seriously, what are you basing that on?
Perception. Do you know what that word means? It's about a subjective feeling. There is no objectivity when ranking cars. It's all about personal feelings.
almost all cars are good on ergonomics these days,
I couldn't disagree more. The IS350 has a horrible driver's seat, small windows that obstruct vision and the steering wheel is flimsy. The G35's driver's seat is too high, too soft and too wide. The CTS's dash is too high, the switchgear's cheap feeling and the seat is too wide and soft. I can go on and on. It's rare that I find a car with good ergonomics.
Interior materials were a concern, but with the newer models (GM and Ford)
Can't agree again. i've rented G6s and Grand Prixs...both had lousy, clunk, cheap feeling materials. For my money it's not even fair to compare a Honda interior to anything made by GM. Heck, even the oft-maligned Infiniti's G35 interior feels more upscale. Again, perception.
I think that is being addressed. Not every import has great materials or interior design. Mitsu, Mazda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc. are no better than any American car and I doubt you could come up with any examples to prove
ROFL. i prefer the materials and layout of Mazdas and Nissans over the american makes. There is no way to "prove" this. It's a subjective feeling.
Heard of the Impala SS, Grand Prix GXP, CTS-V, 300c, mustang, Vette, STS, XLR, GTO, Escalade, Cobalt SS, IOn redline, etc?
Junk. flat out all of them. Power alone is not good enough. Maybe you're missing the concept of an entire package. slide into a Z06 and you've got insane power...that's strapped to a horrible interior, loud drivetrain, warm tranny tunnel and nothing remotely approaching refinement.
Your statement about HP proves you're not seeing the big piture. A 300c has a funky gangster look some people like and a big engine. Unfortunately the driver must sit in that atrocious interior and put up with 4000 lbs of detroit's poor engineering. I've driven the car, man! Its got a gas guzzler tax! It's not smooth and refined (the engine's loud and harsh) and at over 100 the car does not feel locked onto the pavement. Just the opposite, it feels floaty.
Repeatedly, you bring up cars and mention one or two positive attributes. I'm approaching the car world from a holistic point of view...what's the entire package:
I look at an Accord and I see a nice combination that no american company can approach for 27k. for instance, the 06 Accord V6 EX comes with:
6 speed manual Great interior - smooth, supple, everything falls to hand Pretty good driving dynamics An ultra smooth but reponsive V6 A quiet, composed ride at 100 mph 30 mpg on the freeway Great resale Room 4 four for a quick road trip. Weight under 3500 lbs
Is there an American sedan that can touch all of that? No.
The 300c, Milan, Fusion, Impala, etc fail on the first element. Moving on, they lose on so many others, from mileage to weight to the responsive smooth engine.
Move up to entry lux and I immediately think of my e46 330i. but I'll use the e90 with sport package:
6 speed manual Responsive, insanely smooth inline v6 30+ mpg freeway mileage Canyon carving handling Supple, quiet ride at any speed 100+ the car is rock solid 120+ the car is rock solid 130+ the car is rock solid Good resale Nigh perfect ergonomics (though they did move the stupid window switches to the left...argh) Perfect roadfeel transmitted to the steering Seats 4 RWD Decent trunk Under 3500 lbs Comfort access (keyless entry and engine starting) Price tag with comfort access, sport, leather = 41k. European Delivery price = 35.5k. Free maintenance for 4 years
From an overview and experience with the competition there's no way in hades any American car comes close to the above attributes for that kinda price. Heck, the choices are slim at the CTS (poor mileage, thrasy engine, bad interior, poor handling) and 300c (automatic tranny, poor engine, poor handling, extremely heavy, poor interior).
I would love it if you would drive an S4 back to back with a CTSV. If you can come back in here and say with a strait face that the caddy is a better car, then more power to you. I admit it, I am biased against the big 3. [I have an affinity for Ford since I love Mustangs} This is not something I just made up over night. Growing up my Dad bought nothing but the cheapest domestics and they were terrible. I had a brand new Ford Ranger that needed thousands of dollars worth of work on the emissions system right after it went out of warranty. I had a 9 year old Acura that ran like a top at 225k. This bias was earned, and I admit it. It would take nothing for me to buy a GM vehicle because no amount of anything could make me do it. Now please go drive that S4, and then come back and admit your bias.
Thing to keep in mind about Accords, and I've owned 'em for the past 20 years, is that they all require a timing belt change around at ~ 70-90k, which is very expensive. Also, their clutches aren't the best, burning out at ~ 70-80k, at least where I live, where there are lots of hills. Valves have to be set regularly, as well. Maintenance overall ain't cheap. Not a bad car, good solid transportation, but without much fun or character. Still, all in all, they're lighter, peppier, and handle much better than the competition, the Camry or Nissan. I admit, if I were looking for a good mid-priced family car, reliable, safe, and with decent resale value, the Accord would be my first choice.
Well, dhamilton, I happen to drive an S4 and a CTS-V back to back, and by all measures, each car has their own characteristics and capabilities. While the S4 had better interior refinements and luxury appointments, the CTS-V was better in performance and straight line acceleration. Nothing can match up with the CTS-V's performance and neck-slapping thrust of the LS1 engine. With Audi reputation for reliability and depreciation, the CTS-V was an over better value and performance than the S4.
The Accords may be an overall better midsize car in its class, the hard plastics and funky exterior style definitely loses points to the the newer midsize sedans, especially with the new Camry coming out. :lemon:
Here go again. With all this mindless chatter about GM and its problems. Sure GM make some past mistakes, but nobody is perfect. Someone should come up with a new thread called: How will the Chinese impact the global auto or any sector of the economy?
I think that Detroit cars are defined by one simple thing: NASCAR. Now if you like NASCAR, then you probably like and drive domestic cars. If you think that NASCAR is a joke like World Wrestling Federation, then you probably also think that the sponsors of NASCAR are a joke. I mean what would people think if NIKE would sponsor WWF wrestlers.
It would be interesting to conduct a survey to see if I am right. The question is do you like NASCAR and do you drive a domestic car.
I think that this association with NASCAR is very dangerous to Detroit. NASCAR is not about advance technology or innovation, its all about close racing. This means that NASCAR cars are still OHV V8 carbureted cars driving a solid rear axle. Its not like NASCAR can compare with F1. Now what image does this give to domestic cars?
My family member of mine owns a 2004 Porsche 911, a 1995 Mercedes-Benz E320 station wagon, a 1988 BMW M5, and a 1991 BMW 318is and he watches NASCAR races. His favorite driver is Mark Martin.
The new LS7 is an OHV engine and it gets 26 mpg with the new Corvette Z06. The new LS7 weighs 71 pounds less than BMW's 5.0 liter 500 hp V-10.
You see, Chevrolet is not involved with just NASCAR.
The Corvette C6-R won 10 out of 11 races in their class (GT1) in 2005 including Petit Le Mans at Road Atlanta (lasted over 9 hours), a 4 hour race at Laguna Seca, and went 1-2 at the 73rd running of the 24 Hours of Le Mans (4th time in the last five years Corvettes have won their class at Le Mans despite the best efforts of Aston Martin DBR9s, Viper GTS-Rs, Ferraris, Saleen S7Rs, and what not.
Corvettes also won two races in the Speed World Challenge and captured the pole at Mosport.
Cadillac has two CTS-Vs in the Speed World Challenge and they won the manufacturers' championship this year.
A mid-engine Ford GT will race in the GT class next year. Derek and Justin Bell will drive Dodge Viper Competition Coupes.
The Hummer H3 will race in next year’s Dakar Rally, piloted by American Robby Gordon.
The Dodge Viper Competition Coupe sells for around $130,000. It races in the Speed World Challenge and it will also race in the FIA GT's new GT3 class.
The Viper GTS-R sparked new interest in front-engine GT race cars almost a decade ago. It won its class in the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1998 and 1999. A Viper GTS-R also took the OVERALL victory in the 2000 24 Hours of Daytona. A Viper GTS-R also won the 2001 AND the 2002 24 Hours of Spa. The Viper GTS-R urged Chevrolet to race the C5 and they did with the C5-R starting a few years later.
The Saleen S7R has won nearly 40 races around the world. How many supercars made today can make that claim? Saleen finished second in the 2001 GTS Manufacturers Championship of the American Le Mans Series with wins at Laguna Seca and the 12 Hours of Sebring and finished on the podium at Portland, Sears Point, Mosport, Mid-Ohio, and Atlanta.
Panoz, builder of the Esperante (a hand-built aluminum sports car that uses carbon fiber in its chassis for 2006), won their class (GT2) against several Porsche 911s at Road Atlanta earlier this year in the American Le Mans Series.
How are Corvette Z06s, Corvette C6-Rs, the Pontiac Solstices, Panoz Esperantes, Saleen S7s, Ford GTs, Ford Mustangs, and Dodge Vipers defined by NASCAR?
Solstice = Miata, an idea that is 15 years old now
Sky = Most promising product out of GM in my driving years, but see Solstice...
So hydroformed body panels came out 15 years ago?
The new Miata looks like a bar of soap in comparison with the hot Pontiac Solstice. Pontiac has over 15,000 orders for the Solstice and they will race it in Grand-Am Cup.
The Mazda MX-5 and the Pontiac Solstice are the ONLY two seater convertibles available under $25,000. 15 years late or not, the Solstice is hot.
so I would like to post my thoughts as to what it will take to buy American brands...
I do take the view that the unions and their workers are most of the blame...while they do not design the cars, they build and assemble them...I believe they are overpaid for, what is the most part, unskilled or semi-skilled labor...picking up a tire and mounting it on a spindle with 5/6 lug nuts does not require much skill, neither does lining up a dashboard as it slips into place on the body...this labor is barely worth $10/hr in intrinsic value, yet these guys get $40-50 per hour with pay and benefits...
But, they can certainly screw up the product, when parts are misaligned and forced into place, or beer cans are placed in chassis channels just as the body is dropping down on the chassis (note: years ago, an autoworker was laughing in my office as he could barely contain himself telling me how some of his daily production would have permanent rattles and clanks because the beer cans were placed in areas that could not be found unless the body was pulled off...upon hearing that, I then bought Hondas for the nexr 15 years...while I was the only one who heard this conversation, apparently millions of Americans also "heard" him because they deserted the Big 3 in droves)
While it sounds nice to say Buy American and Save your neighbor's job, the real question is this: if my neighbor makes crap, why would anyone think his job is worth saving???...if he can't perform unskilled labor properly, maybe all he is worth is being a Walmart greeter...
Further, Americans did not desert the Big 3 as much as they pushed us away...the 1970s and 1980s were two decades of pure American JUNK, absolute junk...the 90s showed improvement, but the quality in the 90s was what Japanese quality was in the 80s, and they were only 15 years behind...again, I blame unions and their arrogant workers who had the gall to protest when we went elsewhere to buy quality...NEVER once could they look at themselves and see that THEY were the problem...their products got worse while their pay and the prices went up...it is NOT patriotic to buy junk, but it is patriotic to buy a well made product, and that was the one thing they would not give us...
Fortunately, we are watching in real time, the dissolution of the union movement that took 100 years to build, and will probably dissolve within 5 years...Delphi, Delta, soon GM/Ford, and others...when the unions die, then we will see the renaissance of American industry, because workers will be grateful for the job they get, rather than arrogant belief that we owe them a job because of Divine Right...sorry to rant on...
this labor is barely worth $10/hr in intrinsic value, yet these guys get $40-50 per hour with pay and benefits... Probably worth $15-20/ hr and costs $80-90/hr.
Before I purchased any car I've ever bought, new or used, except this last one (the new Mustang GT Premium), I first checked the yearly Consumer Reports issue, in which the results of tens of thousands of readers surveys were posted for each car. Toyota and Honda were clearly the best buys, the ones with greatest consumer satisfaction and least problems. American cars will be wise purchases only when they score well in the Consumer Reports readers survey.
kevmo1958: I can't buy into that, looking for popularity or the return of favour(s). Is that there like the businessman kissing the other politician's butt routine, for sells? Buying driver enthusiast cars is about loyalty to this or that industry and is not about laying out from $19k to about $36K (I'm of the working middle class) for owning and driving a wonderbar machine?
Critical choice requires choosing the best built driving machine, within an individual's budget. Yes, tirelessly examining the very best research and every reliable record and proven experience, can lead to that choice.
I've never met a driving enthusiast that drove a truck for serious driving enjoyment.
Non-commercial use trucks are emasculatory of serious driving pleasure, as their only design purpose is for hauling a lot of things or people from one location to another and as are the fancy pants SUVs etc.
I can understand how little interested so many Americans seem to be with having and driving enthusiast rated automobiles, and especially like those many Europeans "get off on and enjoy" every day of their lives(-refer to #1311 facts re German driving country)
Americans have been conspicuously denied every single interstate highway in the entire country to drive enthusiastically much less enjoy
That's one reason why Ford and GM have to manufacture in Mexico, China et al. If not, doubtlessly they'd be in the sunbelt like the foreigners.
This argument that big 3 cars are just as good and getting a bum deal is just getting so tiresome. Why can't they during all these years get some marketing geniuses to change public perception? It's the big 3 suites that are full of marketing experts, it's the Nippon 3 suites that are full of engineers!
If their cars are so, so good, but are so, so underestimated, it's their fault for not able to change public perception, after all these years! Whose fault is it but theirs!
Right on sister. Eff these unions, bringing us all down. If the autos they crank out are top shelf, then we can live with the price gouging (somewhat). But man! Aside from the trucks, who wants an American vehicle?
Lets strip these companies down to their underwear, make them get real lean and serious, and then they'll start pushing out products that are world class. They've got it in em. Let's get it going.
I'm self employed and take nothing for granted. Nothing! Ever! So this union BS gets zero sympathy from me.
Blueguy.com; -Bravo, to your posting /response, to 1487's.
As to the question: what will it take for GM or Ford to sell me (and anyone else) a car, for example? And the answer is: to sell me anything it'll take a hell of lot CHANGE.
The top brass running American Detroit automaking have steered both companies into the ditch. Many years ago.
The American and philosopher, scientist and teacher W. Edwards Deming, tried to teach them total quality changes there. The top brass not only rejected his simple, principled ideas for that change and to succeed, they ridiculed and humiliated him and throughout American big business industries besides.
The war torn Toyota Motor Corporation invited him to come to their Japanese factory. He did in 1950. They embraced and studied what he taught, setting up the 1st model there
Japanese manufacturers could SCREW the big 3 right now, simply by offering six-passenger seating in their sedans and eight-passenger seating in their small and midsize SUV's.
GM has dropped the Century, Regal, LeSabre, Park Avenue, Seville, Fleetwood, Caprice, Lumina, and all the big Oldsmobiles. Ford has dropped the Taurus and Sable. Dodge dropped the Intrepid. The replacements for these are ALL 5-passenger cars with the exceptions of the Chevy Impala and the Buick LaCrosse.
GM is also dropping the extended Trailblazer/Envoy models, and Ford is considering dropping the third row seat from the Explorer options list. Which means you'll have to buy a Tahoe/Yukon or Expedition to get three rows of seats.
If Honda and Toyota want to own the US car market, they'll put column shift as an available option on Accord DX/LX and Camry CE/LE. And they will get a third row of seats in the Pilot and 4Runner if they don't have it already.
I know aftermarket suppliers make third seats for Blazer/Grand Cherokee/Durango/Explorers. But that's $600 plus installation which requires drilling. Not fun.
Those of us with many kids are growing weary of searching for full-size rear-drive land yachts to keep everyone in one car. It's much cheaper to operate my '79 Oldsmobile which holds everyone...than to get two newer cars for when we all go somewhere at once (which is more often than not).
Really? Who says? the big 3, with their automatic trannies? A Honda Accord with a manual is a wickedly fun 'family car'. Yet another reason why the big 3 lose market share. If they offer one at all, it is in some sick dog needing to put to rest.
So hydroformed body panels make a sports car nowadays? Had to spend money somewhere I guess. Too bad its still 400 lbs heavier than a MIata.
Solstice and Sky is a piece parts car, a rear end from a Caddy CTS, dash and switchgear from a Cobalt, and a gearbox from a Colorado pickup! That my friend, is NOT the makings of a true sports car... That is a slapped together effort built to a price point. Great weekend car, just don't bring any luggage unless you want to tie it to the trunk. Make sure you have at least 15 minutes notice before it rains so you can go through the coomplex motions of getting the top up on your precious investment.
Why no side airbags on the Solstice? There standard on the Miata. ABS? optional. I prefer the Sky over the Solstice, but I'm sorry, there is NO way Mazda is playing "catchup" with either of them. No way. THAT is what I meant by 15 years too late.
Right, but it is a nice option to have... It's called giving consumers what they want. Ignorant, lazy brands don't sell cars, thus the problem. Ford figured it out by offering the 5-speeder in the Fusion, GM figured it out with the G6, as long as you are willing to pay 27k for it. The Accord starts at 17k with a stick.
I respect that you may not want a stick, but there are those of us who do, and it is actually an important feature. I've had 4 Accord 5-speeds, wouldn't want it any other way (Except 6-speeds and a gem of a 3.0l V6)
Comments
And the reason is UNIONS! If American companies would get rid of them they would be able to compete with foreign manufacturers. And please don't tell me regarding the benifits and rights unions fight for. It is not 1920's. Unions were effective then, and they hurting our economy now. Getting unrealistic pension benefits that what unions care and that what cost companies like Ford or GM. Instead of spending those money to actually improve their products they spending for unreasonable and unrealistic retirement and pension benefits.
Good question!
To me, a car or truck is a tool. It does not invoke emotion. I have no intention of portraying an image with my car or truck. I typically buy my vehicles cash, drive them for 10 years, and don't worry about resale value. I have a '98 Ford Explorer and a '97 F-150. Both are very reliable and well made. Both do their jobs every day with no major problems. I would buy another Ford product in a second. Fortunate for me, since these have been reliable I don't need to buy another vehicle.
If I was buying another vehicle, I would buy one from a pool of my customer’s products. I would consider only the ones that would benefit my customers, and ultimately me. I would select the best fit for me from that pool.
Not too many Americans are thinking like this...I know that I am different. My family and friends constantly remind me. However, several of them are now at least putting thought into their purchases. Thought about how is this going to ripple through the economy, rather than what is in it just for me.
A balanced yen to dollar rate would help greatly as well.
Personally I believe there are many problems with unions in this country today. They have become an industry in themselves and serve to protect themselves. I work for the federal gov, which has many unionized employees. In my experience the union at my intitution does very little except to represent disgruntled workers who want a free ride.
The American manufacturer is being placed at a competitive disadvantage in a worldwide marketplace, and we need to look hard at the causes. GM pays out $1600.00 in health insurance benefits for every car it makes. I don't know the figure it pays in pension benefits, but I am sure it is huge. Foreign car makers don't pay these penalties because they have socialized medicine and pensions.
People in this country need to wake up soon. We pay nearly twice as much per capita on healthcare as any other country!! However, we rank low on the lists of life expectancy, infant mortality, etc.
We allow the CEO's of our corporations to enlarge there salaries to over 100 times that of the average employee in their business, and they proceed run the company into the ground, only to escape with a golden severance package.
And here we scratch our heads wondering why the American auto maker is in trouble???
I think it is America that is in trouble, in case nobody noticed. In the first 225 years of this country (up til 2000), we managed to accumulate $5.9 trillion in total debt. During the 8 year reign of King George (2000-2008), we are on pace to nearly double that figure.
The Zephry CAN be comeptition for luxury brands but then the car must be positioned like the G35 was a few years ago. Roll out a Zephyr that's RWD, has 310 hp from an NA 3.5, a 6 speed auto (or 7), navi, bluetooth, etc and all for 33-34k. Then they'll get looks from TL, G35 buyers. Right now there's now value proposition in getting a lincoln zephyr.
Ford forgets they're the outside brand (the korean brand in the mix), so they need to content the car more than similarily priced competition. People have to see either a better car for the same money or a similar car for far less money.
Until Ford/GM get that, their cars will be second choices.
Again, Lexus LS400, G35, Hyundai...these are keys to the kingdom. Ford chooses to ignore estblished patterns.
The people who design them, they are definitely "tools"! :P
Congrats, Kevmo, on buying a couple of Fords that did what they were supposed to do, run without draining your lifeforce!
I feel if you bought a Focus or a Chevy minivan, your luck, and perspective, might change dramatically.
If you use your vehicles as "tools", fine.
It's obvious the US is not building anything above "Tool-grade" anytime soon.
Outside of Mustangs or Vettes, we are playing follow the leader.
And we can't even do that well! :sick:
DrFill
LOL. That's a good laugh.
They also copied lots of products and sold them here and ended up eradicating the US market for US built products.
But a few here would say that's okay to copy; it's just the market economy. The US companies should have done better, cheaper, longer, shorter, whatever criticism works.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You sound like a lawyer, and I am on the stand...
Another good question
As I said before, the majority of domestic suppliers for Japanese domestic auto production are whole or partially owned subsidiaries of the parent (Bodine Aluminum, TG Missouri etc) The Japanese don't buy much American designed manufacturing software, so it is not likely that my customer would be Honda or Toyota. If it was the case, I would follow the hierarchy in my previous post:
1. American Owned / American Made
2. American Owned / Foreign Made
3. Foreign Owned / American Made
4. Foreign Owned / Foreign Made (last resort)
I did not make this up; this is the hierarchy devised by that of published author Roger Simmermaker, a regular guest on CNN w/Lou Dobbs, and Fox News w/Neil Cavuto.
8% yearly pay raises?
Pensions start at 55?
It's obvious, from quotes of many Union execs this week, the Union wanted to hurt New York for X-mas, and the hardliners are confused as to why they aren't still crippling the city by breaking the law. :mad:
......and a Happy new Year!
DrFill
You are saying this issue is a National problem, not just an Automotive problem. It's important to all of us because we are all economically connected.
Autos invoke emotion and passion to the buyer, that's why we are so hard on Ford and GM. The guys in NY will be forgiven, as soon as people can get back to work, but the problem still goes on...If we are one nation, then we need to solve this together, not trash each other.
Remember, whatever you do for a living can be done as well by a foreign company, as soon as they figure out how to apply the Japanese model to your business.
In fact, it may be fair to speculate that the Japanese domination of the US auto market will be short lived. Now that the Japanese have shown the way, the Chinese will copy the model and execute in a matter of 10 years, 20 years faster than what it took the Japanese. It's always easier for the second one through...
Americans were not loyal to themselves, why would we think they would be loyal to the Japanese manufacturers?
Granted, but is that sufficient reason to give them a free pass to a competition-free future? Bad management decisions and bad negotiations have led these two to delay taking a hard stand until now. My family has been involved with GE for over 60 years. Why are GM/Ford not like GE? They lacked vision and a strong leadership. They kept putting off the uncomfortable, GE did not. GE is one of the best run companies in the world, GM/Ford possibly among the worst. Sorry no free pass for them, it's time to pay the piper. As you said correctly..
Prepare your children to pay the price for our ( GM/Ford's) short sighted economic polices.
I'm sorry if you must suffer for their earlier weaknesses but I understand your position as an indirect supplier.
My reply is this-What do you do for living?
I was in your position a while ago but closer. I was a direct sole-supplier to both Chrysler/Ford and indirectly to GM as you are. In my case it was body panels, subframes and other parts. I tried to give them every opportunity to keep my business but except for a '93 Escort four out of five other vehicles were horrible failures.
I am not going to continue to give them my money if they wont reciprocate with problem-free vehicles.
Your points 2 & 3 are not logical. Emotionally understandable but not logical.
Why should DC's foreign-owned facilities be allowed to remain while the other foreign-owned facitities be closed?
Why do you not think the transplant facilities compete fairly? It's only business. What if... GM went to say OK and said listen we are going to close a bunch of factories in MI, would you like us to build a state-of-the-art greenfield plant here? What kind of breaks will you give us? GM has this opportunity why not use it? They choose not to take advantage but Hyundai does.
Again your points 3 & 4 are emotionally understandable but illogical.
Why is foreign ownership of facilities in the US bad but in the case of GM and Ford ownership of facilities overseas it's acceptable? Either both are bad or both are good. Why a difference?
Finally you keep coming back to this statement regarding vehicles built at the transplants:..'Final assembly is a mere fraction of the total value' .
This is just wrong. As a former direct supplier of steel to the automakers I know that the largest percentage of material and parts comes from US-based companies. It is not a 'mere fraction' it's the majority. I'm thinking that you see steel, aluminum, glass, rubber, leather, fabric all suddenly appearing from overseas then being assembled at the plant. That's just not correct. The materials and parts are made here by US workers.
My heart is with you, kevmo, and my buying history partially bears that out. I generally buy Fords or Toyotas, but because they seem to be the best of their kind to me. (Ford best American brand, Toyota best Japanese brand). My experience with them has born that out.
However, I am not going to buy American if the cars are junk. Fortunately, that's not been the case, but if there's no Domestic offering that works for me, I have no qualms about reaching over the ocean to get what I need.
We can agree to disagree. The future will prove us wrong or right. Just so you know, I didn't make any of this stuff up. All taken from many hours of books, articles, interviews delivered by some very, very smart people who have studied this for years.
Your opnion obviously counts, as you have lived it.
Good luck, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.
Have to see the big picture, and not get too greedy.
Or...Grinchy!
DrFill
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=996&CatID=1
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=860&CatID=1
Practically all car manufacturers have improved their #defects/vehicle over the last 25 years but Ford, GM and Chrysler have been chasing a moving target. Honda's and Toyota's quality have been continuously improving as well.
As far as "What will it take?" is concerned - at this point, I think the domestics' 1980 market shares were theirs to lose and they've been losing it through a certain level of hubris and arrogance since then. You have a generation of people who have only ever driven Toyota and Honda and that's now what they expect - in terms of price, reliability, fuel economy and depreciation.
You're dealing with a purchase a lot of people only make every 5-10 years, so that'll take a long period of improvements in these areas to turn their decline around, if it's even possible.
European makes are more niche products - just look at their sales volumes - and have more to do with fashion and desire than practicality. You can easily pay twice as much for a luxury European vehicle as for a Camry, but do you get TWICE the safety, TWICE the mpg, TWICE the reliability, half the depreciation, etc ? Clearly not; and people buy the European luxury marques for entirely different reasons.
8% yearly pay raises?
Pensions start at 55?
It's obvious, from quotes of many Union execs this week, the Union wanted to hurt New York for X-mas, and the hardliners are confused as to why they aren't still crippling the city by breaking the law
I grew up in Canada in the 70's and 80's. Seems like there were strikes every week. Every one there went on strike; trash strikes, bus strikes, ferry strikes, nurse strikes, truck driver strikes, doctor strikes, public employee strikes....... It is also that way in much of Europe. Feel lucky that it is not like that here!
Don't fotrget that the MTA Union members contribute nothing (0%) to their medical costs or pension costs.
Also, doesn't breaking the law usually result in painful consequences. Where are they?
"I wouldn't buy it because it's cramped, ugly, not very useful, not efficient, not luxurious and still too expensive for a Ford. Maybe for 20k I'd at least take a test drive. Though I'd never buy it. "
Very funny, but that proves my point. The Ford GT (I'm not a fan) is a better value than any other car in its price range and can outrun cars that cost twice as much. You have to give Ford credit where its due. You are making my point for me. People who are completely biased against the Big 3 (as many people in CA apparently are) arent going to look at their products period. You can talk about reliability, quality, engines, safety, fit/finish, styling or whatever else you want but nothing the Big 3 makes would attract a Detroit hater like yourself. That is fine, to each his own, but dont try to act like the decision is based on some type of rationality or objective reasoning. The rationale is simply that people like yourself are too concerned about what other may think of your ride to drive something that isnt considered impressive by your peers. Nothing wrong with that, but dont take it out on the Ford GT.
Your statements about Cadillac have no basis in fact. Cadillacs sales and image are much improved in 5 short years. Your statement about cadillac being "2 generations" behind the Europeans is laughable and cant be substantiated. Cadillac is already seen as being more serious about making sports sedans than Audi, and possibly MB. MB has been making AMG cars that were supposed to compete with BMWs for years but they neglect handling and responsiveness and spend all their time on neck snapping hp. The CTS-V and possibly STS-V are more driver's cars than the AMG cars or the Audi S cars based on what I've read. BTW, if Cadillac is two genrations behind the Bavarians, who many generations behind are Lexus and Acura? Read some of the revews of the CTS-v from when it came out, Automobile mag (and others) clearly said it was sportier than the C32 and in some cases the S4. Cadillac has essentially caught up to everyone except BMW in about five years. The XLR-V and '08 CTS will put them even closer. You personally don't like Cadillacs so I dont see why you would test drive one just to prove that it was as bad as you suspected. Your review of a Cadillac about as objective as a conservative Republican review of a Micheal Moore movie. I dont like the Camry so I'm not going to waste time test driving one just so I can tell everyone that it was as dull as I thought it would be.
"Quality is about perception. The perception still remains that GM/Ford/Mopar are not quality cars - power, ride, interior materials, ergonomicas, etc"
Seriously, what are you basing that on? almost all cars are good on ergonomics these days, with the Europeans possibly being the exception. If you cant figure out how to operate a GM product within 2 minutes than I would say you, not the car, may have a problem . Interior materials were a concern, but with the newer models (GM and Ford) I think that is being addressed. Not every import has great materials or interior design. Mitsu, Mazda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc. are no better than any American car and I doubt you could come up with any examples to prove otherwise. Power? Heard of the Impala SS, Grand Prix GXP, CTS-V, 300c, mustang, Vette, STS, XLR, GTO, Escalade, Cobalt SS, IOn redline, etc? I guess not. That was a sample of the underpowered cars offered by the Big 2.5. In fact when you compare hp available at any given dollar amount, typically the domestic cars will win. There arent too many sedan available under $33K that can run with a 300C or Impala SS.
ToyoHonda lead in hybrids and resale value, those are the only two things that can be said about them without fear of contradiction. At least for those who bother to let facts interfere with their townhall posts.
You need to separate image from actual car attributes. For example, a Bentley is far more impressive (maybe even in San Diego) than an LS430 but in reality a Bentley is much more expensive, more unreliable, more thirsty for gas and less luxurious than an LS430. Your argument seems to be that the fact that sophisticated CA residents see all domestic cars from Cobalt to Z06 as rentals proves that those vehicles are in fact inferior to any import. The Big 2.5 have a bigger image problem than they do product problem, in fact the stereotypes really dont even match up to the vehicles anymore.
Someone asked if Cadillac had ever beat any imports in comparisons. The SRX beat the Cayenne, FX45 and Toureg in a comparo. The CTS beat about 6 imports in R&T in 2004, the CTS-V beat the C55 and the STS-V beat the CLS55 in C&D's latest issue. MT also compared the STS to the 545 when they first came out and basically declared the contest a draw.
does that apply to Solstice, Escalade, 300/Magnum/Charger, XLR, G6 convertable, Sky, GTO, Ford GT, Grand Cherokee SRT8 and CTS-V?
Didn't think so. Give me a break. Other than Hybrid technology there isnt much else from the Japanese worth emulating. The big 3 surely isnt looking towards them for styling direction.
I agree 100%. If you shop at Walmart, odds are that a week or a month later the price for the same items will be very similar, so there is no feeling of getting burned by a price drop. Also, the price that you pay will be very competitive, probably the best value for you money. This is what Honda and Toyota do.
When will the Domestic automakers get their MSRP's in line with the real value of the vehicles? I recently saw a new Pontiac Montana van with an MSRP of $35K for sale for $26K and a one year old one for $15K. I would guess that the real value of the new vehicle is about $20k! That still gives 25% depreciation in one year.
G6 conv. = Camry Solara, again a car that is now into its second generation awaiting a third
Sky = Most promising product out of GM in my driving years, but see Solstice...
CTS-V - Chasing BMW with this one, not the other way around. Too bad the 10 cent interior doesn't hold a candle to a Kia, much less the Bimmer. You are buying a big motor strapped to a Cavalier... Japan will strike with the IS500 or what not within the next year. I don't think they are aiming for Caddy on that one. Everything points to the M3 for inpiration.
SRT-8 - Whao big motor in an SUV. Umm let's see, BMW X5 4.6 & 4.8, ML55, Cayenne? Cherokee lost its elegance with the redesign, the new model is as cookie cutter bland as an Explorer.
Follow the leader, and try and keep up...
The GTO is a 5 year old Aussie. Took zero effort on the parts of GM America to bring this car to market. Who wants to follow that?
The GT is a marvel and a bargain. No arguments there.
Hardly. I'd rather a 911 turbo, thanks. Better interior, usuable interior space (4 seats), quieter, more luxurious, better built (porsches are nearly bulletproof) and a car that's fit for a long drive to Vegas or a jaunt around a track. Thanks, I'll stick to the "supercars" from europe.
arent going to look at their products period.
Actually, I did test drive some american makes the last two times I bought (May of 03 and November of 03). Before I buy my next car - within the next 5 months, I'll go drive the fusion/zephyr and Charger.
nothing the Big 3 makes would attract a Detroit hater like yourself.
I'll still look. If it impresses me, I'll change my tune. You aren't getting a car purchase for me requires a vehicle to be just shy of perfect when it comes to handling, roadfeel, ergonomics, seating position, extras, power, transmission, seating, trunk space, fuel efficiency.
At this point, nothing I have driven in prep (A3, A4, G35, IS350, C class, TL, TSX, mazdaspeed6, jetta, passat, accord v6, 330i e90, RX8, WRX, STi, Legacy GT) for my next car compares to my current car. Nothing. What I want is so very specific.
If American car companies can build a RWD car that seats 4, does 60 in less the 6 seconds, has a smooth NVH-free engine, a 6 speed manual, gets 30+ mpg on the freeway, can travel smoothly at 100+ for extended stretches, is exceedingly athletic in the twisties, has xenon headlights and in general feels like a vault all for less than 40k, I'm interested. No such beast, as far as my experience exists from 95% of the makes out there.
Your statements about Cadillac have no basis in fact. Cadillacs sales and image are much improved in 5 short years. Your statement about cadillac being "2 generations" behind the Europeans is laughable and cant be substantiated.
It's totally subjective. I drive a Caddy and laugh at how poorly it's assembled and drives. The CTS is a flat out joke vis-a-vis everything from Japan and Europe.
I've driven the CTS manual. It's a lousy car. Plain and simple. It's not on par with anything from Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, MB, Subaru, Mazda or BMW. This is subjective. You may feel otherwise. I know for my money the CTS is garbage. I've driven it hard and it's not a composed or decent car.
Seriously, what are you basing that on?
Perception. Do you know what that word means? It's about a subjective feeling. There is no objectivity when ranking cars. It's all about personal feelings.
almost all cars are good on ergonomics these days,
I couldn't disagree more. The IS350 has a horrible driver's seat, small windows that obstruct vision and the steering wheel is flimsy. The G35's driver's seat is too high, too soft and too wide. The CTS's dash is too high, the switchgear's cheap feeling and the seat is too wide and soft. I can go on and on. It's rare that I find a car with good ergonomics.
Interior materials were a concern, but with the newer models (GM and Ford)
Can't agree again. i've rented G6s and Grand Prixs...both had lousy, clunk, cheap feeling materials. For my money it's not even fair to compare a Honda interior to anything made by GM. Heck, even the oft-maligned Infiniti's G35 interior feels more upscale. Again, perception.
I think that is being addressed. Not every import has great materials or interior design. Mitsu, Mazda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc. are no better than any American car and I doubt you could come up with any examples to prove
ROFL. i prefer the materials and layout of Mazdas and Nissans over the american makes. There is no way to "prove" this. It's a subjective feeling.
Heard of the Impala SS, Grand Prix GXP, CTS-V, 300c, mustang, Vette, STS, XLR, GTO, Escalade, Cobalt SS, IOn redline, etc?
Junk. flat out all of them. Power alone is not good enough. Maybe you're missing the concept of an entire package. slide into a Z06 and you've got insane power...that's strapped to a horrible interior, loud drivetrain, warm tranny tunnel and nothing remotely approaching refinement.
Your statement about HP proves you're not seeing the big piture. A 300c has a funky gangster look some people like and a big engine. Unfortunately the driver must sit in that atrocious interior and put up with 4000 lbs of detroit's poor engineering. I've driven the car, man! Its got a gas guzzler tax! It's not smooth and refined (the engine's loud and harsh) and at over 100 the car does not feel locked onto the pavement. Just the opposite, it feels floaty.
I look at an Accord and I see a nice combination that no american company can approach for 27k. for instance, the 06 Accord V6 EX comes with:
6 speed manual
Great interior - smooth, supple, everything falls to hand
Pretty good driving dynamics
An ultra smooth but reponsive V6
A quiet, composed ride at 100 mph
30 mpg on the freeway
Great resale
Room 4 four for a quick road trip.
Weight under 3500 lbs
Is there an American sedan that can touch all of that? No.
The 300c, Milan, Fusion, Impala, etc fail on the first element. Moving on, they lose on so many others, from mileage to weight to the responsive smooth engine.
Move up to entry lux and I immediately think of my e46 330i. but I'll use the e90 with sport package:
6 speed manual
Responsive, insanely smooth inline v6
30+ mpg freeway mileage
Canyon carving handling
Supple, quiet ride at any speed
100+ the car is rock solid
120+ the car is rock solid
130+ the car is rock solid
Good resale
Nigh perfect ergonomics (though they did move the stupid window switches to the left...argh)
Perfect roadfeel transmitted to the steering
Seats 4
RWD
Decent trunk
Under 3500 lbs
Comfort access (keyless entry and engine starting)
Price tag with comfort access, sport, leather = 41k. European Delivery price = 35.5k.
Free maintenance for 4 years
From an overview and experience with the competition there's no way in hades any American car comes close to the above attributes for that kinda price. Heck, the choices are slim at the CTS (poor mileage, thrasy engine, bad interior, poor handling) and 300c (automatic tranny, poor engine, poor handling, extremely heavy, poor interior).
Now please go drive that S4, and then come back and admit your bias.
It would be interesting to conduct a survey to see if I am right. The question is do you like NASCAR and do you drive a domestic car.
I think that this association with NASCAR is very dangerous to Detroit. NASCAR is not about advance technology or innovation, its all about close racing. This means that NASCAR cars are still OHV V8 carbureted cars driving a solid rear axle. Its not like NASCAR can compare with F1. Now what image does this give to domestic cars?
My family member of mine owns a 2004 Porsche 911, a 1995 Mercedes-Benz E320 station wagon, a 1988 BMW M5, and a 1991 BMW 318is and he watches NASCAR races. His favorite driver is Mark Martin.
The new LS7 is an OHV engine and it gets 26 mpg with the new Corvette Z06. The new LS7 weighs 71 pounds less than BMW's 5.0 liter 500 hp V-10.
You see, Chevrolet is not involved with just NASCAR.
The Corvette C6-R won 10 out of 11 races in their class (GT1) in 2005 including Petit Le Mans at Road Atlanta (lasted over 9 hours), a 4 hour race at Laguna Seca, and went 1-2 at the 73rd running of the 24 Hours of Le Mans (4th time in the last five years Corvettes have won their class at Le Mans despite the best efforts of Aston Martin DBR9s, Viper GTS-Rs, Ferraris, Saleen S7Rs, and what not.
Corvettes also won two races in the Speed World Challenge and captured the pole at Mosport.
Cadillac has two CTS-Vs in the Speed World Challenge and they won the manufacturers' championship this year.
A mid-engine Ford GT will race in the GT class next year. Derek and Justin Bell will drive Dodge Viper Competition Coupes.
Speed World Challenge
Two Pontiac GTO.Rs are raced in the Rolex Sports Car Series. They won three races and they started half-way through the season.
"Pontiac" Daytona Prototypes use LS1 engine and they dominated this year. One of them won the 24 Hours of Daytona this year.
Chevrolet Cobalt SS coupes won three races in Grand-Am Cup in 2005.
The Pontiac Solstice will be raced in Grand-Am Cup next year.
Ford won the 2005 Grand-Am Cup manufacturers' Championship with the new Mustang. The new Mustang won five races.
Grand American Road Racing Association
The Hummer H3 will race in next year’s Dakar Rally, piloted by American Robby Gordon.
The Dodge Viper Competition Coupe sells for around $130,000. It races in the Speed World Challenge and it will also race in the FIA GT's new GT3 class.
The Viper GTS-R sparked new interest in front-engine GT race cars almost a decade ago. It won its class in the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1998 and 1999. A Viper GTS-R also took the OVERALL victory in the 2000 24 Hours of Daytona. A Viper GTS-R also won the 2001 AND the 2002 24 Hours of Spa. The Viper GTS-R urged Chevrolet to race the C5 and they did with the C5-R starting a few years later.
The Saleen S7R has won nearly 40 races around the world. How many supercars made today can make that claim? Saleen finished second in the 2001 GTS Manufacturers Championship of the American Le Mans Series with wins at Laguna Seca and the 12 Hours of Sebring and finished on the podium at Portland, Sears Point, Mosport, Mid-Ohio, and Atlanta.
Panoz, builder of the Esperante (a hand-built aluminum sports car that uses carbon fiber in its chassis for 2006), won their class (GT2) against several Porsche 911s at Road Atlanta earlier this year in the American Le Mans Series.
How are Corvette Z06s, Corvette C6-Rs, the Pontiac Solstices, Panoz Esperantes, Saleen S7s, Ford GTs, Ford Mustangs, and Dodge Vipers defined by NASCAR?
Sky = Most promising product out of GM in my driving years, but see Solstice...
So hydroformed body panels came out 15 years ago?
The new Miata looks like a bar of soap in comparison with the hot Pontiac Solstice. Pontiac has over 15,000 orders for the Solstice and they will race it in Grand-Am Cup.
The Mazda MX-5 and the Pontiac Solstice are the ONLY two seater convertibles available under $25,000. 15 years late or not, the Solstice is hot.
I do take the view that the unions and their workers are most of the blame...while they do not design the cars, they build and assemble them...I believe they are overpaid for, what is the most part, unskilled or semi-skilled labor...picking up a tire and mounting it on a spindle with 5/6 lug nuts does not require much skill, neither does lining up a dashboard as it slips into place on the body...this labor is barely worth $10/hr in intrinsic value, yet these guys get $40-50 per hour with pay and benefits...
But, they can certainly screw up the product, when parts are misaligned and forced into place, or beer cans are placed in chassis channels just as the body is dropping down on the chassis (note: years ago, an autoworker was laughing in my office as he could barely contain himself telling me how some of his daily production would have permanent rattles and clanks because the beer cans were placed in areas that could not be found unless the body was pulled off...upon hearing that, I then bought Hondas for the nexr 15 years...while I was the only one who heard this conversation, apparently millions of Americans also "heard" him because they deserted the Big 3 in droves)
While it sounds nice to say Buy American and Save your neighbor's job, the real question is this: if my neighbor makes crap, why would anyone think his job is worth saving???...if he can't perform unskilled labor properly, maybe all he is worth is being a Walmart greeter...
Further, Americans did not desert the Big 3 as much as they pushed us away...the 1970s and 1980s were two decades of pure American JUNK, absolute junk...the 90s showed improvement, but the quality in the 90s was what Japanese quality was in the 80s, and they were only 15 years behind...again, I blame unions and their arrogant workers who had the gall to protest when we went elsewhere to buy quality...NEVER once could they look at themselves and see that THEY were the problem...their products got worse while their pay and the prices went up...it is NOT patriotic to buy junk, but it is patriotic to buy a well made product, and that was the one thing they would not give us...
Fortunately, we are watching in real time, the dissolution of the union movement that took 100 years to build, and will probably dissolve within 5 years...Delphi, Delta, soon GM/Ford, and others...when the unions die, then we will see the renaissance of American industry, because workers will be grateful for the job they get, rather than arrogant belief that we owe them a job because of Divine Right...sorry to rant on...
Strong opinion to follow...
Probably worth $15-20/ hr and costs $80-90/hr.
Critical choice requires choosing the best built driving machine, within an individual's budget. Yes, tirelessly examining the very best research and every reliable record and proven experience, can lead to that choice.
I've never met a driving enthusiast that drove a truck for serious driving enjoyment.
Non-commercial use trucks are emasculatory of serious driving pleasure, as their only design purpose is for hauling a lot of things or people from one location to another and as are the fancy pants SUVs etc.
I can understand how little interested so many Americans seem to be with having and driving enthusiast rated automobiles, and especially like those many Europeans "get off on and enjoy" every day of their lives(-refer to #1311 facts re German driving country)
Americans have been conspicuously denied every single interstate highway in the entire country to drive enthusiastically much less enjoy
Don't yo'all think?
This argument that big 3 cars are just as good and getting a bum deal is just getting so tiresome. Why can't they during all these years get some marketing geniuses to change public perception? It's the big 3 suites that are full of marketing experts, it's the Nippon 3 suites that are full of engineers!
If their cars are so, so good, but are so, so underestimated, it's their fault for not able to change public perception, after all these years! Whose fault is it but theirs!
Right on sister. Eff these unions, bringing us all down. If the autos they crank out are top shelf, then we can live with the price gouging (somewhat). But man! Aside from the trucks, who wants an American vehicle?
Lets strip these companies down to their underwear, make them get real lean and serious, and then they'll start pushing out products that are world class. They've got it in em. Let's get it going.
I'm self employed and take nothing for granted. Nothing! Ever! So this union BS gets zero sympathy from me.
F-150 works great for me. I live at 6K feet above sea level and own a few acres of land...
Not to offend, but the 'enthusiast' vehicle you reference would probably not get out of my driveway on a snow day.
different strokes for different folks!
As to the question: what will it take for GM or Ford to sell me (and anyone else) a car, for example? And the answer is: to sell me anything it'll take a hell of lot CHANGE.
The top brass running American Detroit automaking have steered both companies into the ditch. Many years ago.
The American and philosopher, scientist and teacher W. Edwards Deming, tried to teach them total quality changes there. The top brass not only rejected his simple, principled ideas for that change and to succeed, they ridiculed and humiliated him and throughout American big business industries besides.
The war torn Toyota Motor Corporation invited him to come to their Japanese factory. He did in 1950. They embraced and studied what he taught, setting up the 1st model there
(Refer to driving and country...#1311)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
GM has dropped the Century, Regal, LeSabre, Park Avenue, Seville, Fleetwood, Caprice, Lumina, and all the big Oldsmobiles. Ford has dropped the Taurus and Sable. Dodge dropped the Intrepid. The replacements for these are ALL 5-passenger cars with the exceptions of the Chevy Impala and the Buick LaCrosse.
GM is also dropping the extended Trailblazer/Envoy models, and Ford is considering dropping the third row seat from the Explorer options list. Which means you'll have to buy a Tahoe/Yukon or Expedition to get three rows of seats.
If Honda and Toyota want to own the US car market, they'll put column shift as an available option on Accord DX/LX and Camry CE/LE. And they will get a third row of seats in the Pilot and 4Runner if they don't have it already.
I know aftermarket suppliers make third seats for Blazer/Grand Cherokee/Durango/Explorers. But that's $600 plus installation which requires drilling. Not fun.
Those of us with many kids are growing weary of searching for full-size rear-drive land yachts to keep everyone in one car. It's much cheaper to operate my '79 Oldsmobile which holds everyone...than to get two newer cars for when we all go somewhere at once (which is more often than not).
Solstice and Sky is a piece parts car, a rear end from a Caddy CTS, dash and switchgear from a Cobalt, and a gearbox from a Colorado pickup! That my friend, is NOT the makings of a true sports car... That is a slapped together effort built to a price point. Great weekend car, just don't bring any luggage unless you want to tie it to the trunk. Make sure you have at least 15 minutes notice before it rains so you can go through the coomplex motions of getting the top up on your precious investment.
Why no side airbags on the Solstice? There standard on the Miata. ABS? optional. I prefer the Sky over the Solstice, but I'm sorry, there is NO way Mazda is playing "catchup" with either of them. No way. THAT is what I meant by 15 years too late.
Take care.
I respect that you may not want a stick, but there are those of us who do, and it is actually an important feature. I've had 4 Accord 5-speeds, wouldn't want it any other way (Except 6-speeds and a gem of a 3.0l V6)