Toyota on the mend?

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  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    For the CHP officer to witness the brake lights on the speeding Prius and smelled burning brakes at the same time while the Prius was not decelerating, the only conclusion is that the brake override system failed during the incident.

    If those are the facts then I find nothing to argue with in that statement.
  • nmt001nmt001 Member Posts: 124
    edited March 2010
    You speculate that the smoke from the brakes of the Prius could have been caused by Mr. Sikes barely applying the brake when the speed was high enough while his other foot was pressing hard on the accelerator.

    Remember the accusation of your cohorts that Mr. Sikes could have worn out the brake pads intentionally to almost nothing and then faked the runaway incident?
    If that were the case, then he would have to press on the brake pedal much further down in order to just apply the brake lightly to cause the smoke. Shouldn't the brake override have been engaged when he had to press the brake pedal further down to compensate the lack of brake pads on the brakes?

    Oh, by the way. I was the owner of a 1998 Toyota Corolla and then a 2007 Camry.
    The 1998 Toyota was good but the 2007 Camry 4 cylinder has acceleration hesitation problem which Toyota refused to acknowledge until much later in a TSB without informing the owners about the fix.
  • nmt001nmt001 Member Posts: 124
    If I'm wrong about the credibility of Mr. Spikes, it's no big deal. The bottom line is I only engage in logical analysis of the facts related to the case instead of engaging in the criminal act of cover up.

    Toyota has been digging itself so deep in the mess of covering up the huge numbers of unintended acceleration some of which have caused the lost of innocent human lives that I anticipated years ago it would be in big trouble like it is today.

    Dragging hapless customers into the hole is no way for Toyota to save itself out of the hole.
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    Toyota pushed GM Ford and Chrysler to develop readers and now look at Toyota caught with out one that works. Time out Toyota has bit a big chunk out of its own business. Time most Toyota hangers on left this ship because the blame is with none other than Toyota,not the employees, Not the UAW,Not Other companies. Then if God himself had the problem driving a Toyota, it would be most on this site would find fault with his taxable income.
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    The SUA mania is winding down in my neck of the woods. Don't hear much about it, except on the national news.

    I expect Toyota sales to be up for March.
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    Sorry Steve Toyota will clear the lots with the 0% but to call it a Sale I would think Give away at this time.The Numbers will say up but July will be the month to tell if Toyota will make it in the USA.
  • nmt001nmt001 Member Posts: 124
    "That is pretty convoluted thinking on your part. Sort of like we used to do in about the 5th grade. A variation of the old "heads I win, tails you lose" scam."

    Logical thinking is not convoluted thinking. The fact that the override worked during the test drives by the investigators does not mean it must have worked during the incident. In fact smoking brake from a speeding car indicated that the override did not work.

    Toyota is the one playing the "heads I win, tails you lose" trick.
    If you have your Toyota fixed in the floor mat and sticky pedal recall and you get into an accident due to unintended acceleration, you lose because Toyota does not acknowledge their vehicles has other SUA problems so you are assumed to be the culprit.
    If you ignore the recall then you get into an accident due to unintended acceleration, you lose because you are supposed to have those problems fixed.

    I would say the Toyota customs of those recalled vehicles are in a no win situation.
  • nmt001nmt001 Member Posts: 124
    The thickness of the rear brake pads was not 3mm after the incident. It was 1/2 mm or about 0.02 inch. OK, I agree 1/2 mm is not paper thin but that is just the thickness of the average thumb nail.
    The fact is that the investigator found the front brake pads of the Prius worn down to nothing and the rear brake pads worn down to the thickness of the human nail.
    Does it help you to imagine how much braking it needed to cause wearing like that?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Well, if someone called me a liar and I knew I was telling the truth, I would be the first one in line to volunteer to take a lie detector test. I wonder if we will see this from Mr. Sikes? No way this crook will take one.

    A lie detector test would be a good way to get to the bottom of all these cases. Line em up and start asking some embarrassing questions. If they were smart, Toyota should also volunteer to be tested. I have heard that these tests cannot be used in court but they could certainly be used in the court of public opinion.

    That's my solution.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Well, if someone called me a liar and I knew I was telling the truth, I would be the first one in line to volunteer to take a lie detector test.

    Not if you had advice from a competent lawyer you wouldn't! :shades:
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    Sorry Steve Toyota will clear the lots with the 0% but to call it a Sale I would think Give away at this time.The Numbers will say up but July will be the month to tell if Toyota will make it in the USA.

    Must be lots of manufacturers in a "giving" mood, as many others are offering 0% for up to 60 months.

    I don't see Toyota's incentives being much different that they were when I bought my 2010 Camry in January. At that time they were offering 0% interest for 60 months on the Corolla and .9% interest for 60 months on the Camry.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    You mean if I had the advice of a self serving greedy lawyer who did not want to be put out of business by a truth machine. That is the real reason they are not allowed in court....but this is a little different situation.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Published: 3/15/10, 8:46 PM EDT
    By ELLIOT SPAGAT and TOM KRISHER

    SAN DIEGO (AP) - Toyota Motor Corp. dismissed the story of a man who claimed his Prius sped out of control on the California freeway, saying Monday that its own tests found the car's gas pedal and backup safety system were working just fine.

    The automaker stopped short of saying James Sikes had staged a hoax last week but said his account did not square with a series of tests it conducted on the gas-electric hybrid.

    "We have no opinion on his account, what he's been saying, other than that the scenario is not consistent with the technical findings," spokesman Mike Michels told a press conference.

    The episode March 8 was among the highest-profile headaches Toyota has suffered in recent months. It recalled more than 8 million cars and trucks worldwide because gas pedals can become stuck in the down position or be snagged by floor mats. Dozens of Toyota drivers have reported problems even after their cars were supposedly fixed.

    In Sikes' case, Toyota said it found he rapidly pressed the gas and brakes back and forth 250 times, the maximum amount of data that the car's self-diagnostic system can collect. That account appears to contradict Sikes' statement - backed by the California Highway Patrol - that he was frantically slamming the brakes, at one point lifting his buttocks off the seat.

    Toyota officials said they believed Sikes was hitting the pedals lightly, which would have prevented the brake-override system from kicking in.

    The company had no explanation for discrepancies with Sikes' account but confirmed the brakes were overheated and the pads worn. Bob Waltz, vice president of product, quality and service support at Toyota Motor Sales USA., said the front brakes were "metal to metal."

    Toyota said it believes a CHP officer's account that he smelled burning brakes while guiding Sikes on the freeway.

    "That is the puzzling aspect of this," Michels said.

    Sikes has said his car raced to 94 mph on a freeway near San Diego. He called 911, but did not respond to instructions from the dispatcher to shut off the engine or throw the car into neutral.

    The CHP officer ultimately helped bring the car safely to a stop by telling him over a loudspeaker to hit the emergency brake and foot brake simultaneously. Sikes spoke to reporters shortly after the incident but has since kept a low profile.

    Toyota said it had conducted two days of tests on the car last week. It found severe wear and damage on the front brakes from overheating, but the rear brakes and parking brake were in good condition.

    And the rest of the car was fine, the automaker said - the gas pedal was not slowed by friction, the floor mat was not even touching the pedal, and a system that cuts the engine power when the gas and brakes are pressed at the same time was working.

    Toyota said its tests showed the car's electronics were working fine.

    "If there were some kind of electronic problem, you would think it might actually stay permanent," Michels said. "When your TV goes on the fritz, when electronic stuff goes on the fritz, it doesn't just do it once and never do it again."

    A statement from Sikes' attorney, John H. Gomez, said the firm would not comment further on the episode until a government investigation was complete. Sikes did not respond to phone messages.

    The company also said the push-button power switch worked normally and shut the car off when pressed for three seconds, and that the shift lever worked normally, so the car could be shifted into neutral.

    The power management computer contained no diagnostic trouble codes, and the dashboard malfunction lights were not activated, Toyota said.

    Earlier in the day, federal regulators said they were reviewing data from the gas-electric hybrid but so far had not found anything to explain the out-of-control acceleration reported by Sikes.

    "We would caution people that our work continues and that we may never know exactly what happened with this car," the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said in a statement.

    On Sunday, Gomez said it was neither surprising nor significant that inspectors had been unable to recreate the conditions reported by Sikes.

    "They have never been able to replicate an incident of sudden acceleration. Mr. Sikes never had a problem in the three years he owned this vehicle," he said.

    But Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., suggested it raised questions about Sikes' story.

    "It doesn't mean it didn't happen, but let's understand, it doesn't mean it did happen," Issa said on CBS' "The Early Show."

    Toyota spokesman John Hanson said the event data recorder - a car's version of the "black box" inspected after plane crashes - would be of no use to investigators because it only stores information when the airbags are deployed. The box only stores four to six seconds of information before the airbags go off, he said.

    But investigators were able to download valuable information from the hybrid's control computer system, which showed the car was functioning normally, Toyota said.

    Toyota will give the car back to Sikes soon, Michels said, indicating that no further testing will be done for electronic causes.

    Two outside experts, however, said it would be a mistake not to test for unknown electronic gremlins, such as electromagnetic interference, static electricity or software glitches. Those problems, they said, can gum up electronics and then disappear.

    It's possible the Prius' backup system could have been compromised by an electronic glitch, said Keith Armstrong, a British electronic engineer and consultant who advises companies on electromagnetic interference.

    Toyota challenged Sikes' account that a dealer turned him away when he brought the car in a few weeks ago after he got a recall notice. It said Toyota of El Cajon, east of San Diego, checked his floor mats and told him he would get a notice when they would be replaced.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would add that Sikes Prius should not have needed a brake job for another 50k miles, if Prius owners are being honest. Most claim they get at least 100k miles on the Prius brakes.

    A lie detector test has been proven fallible. That is why it is not admissible as evidence in most states. From what I am seeing in the news, the court of public opinion has already tried and lynched Sikes. I don't think he realized the blind dedication many hold for Toyota and none more than Prius owners.

    Shifting a Prius into neutral is not easy

    Q With all the accelerating Toyotas in the news, I keep hearing that people are stepping on their brakes as hard as they can and using their emergency brakes. However, I haven't heard anything about whether people have attempted putting their cars into neutral. "... To me, the first and most important step to slow and stop a runaway car with a stuck accelerator would be to shift it to neutral. This was the first thing I told my wife to ensure our family's safety. Am I missing something? "... Why doesn't every article about this topic include the statement: "Shift the car into neutral." Isn't this an obvious solution? "... If your accelerator sticks, PUT THE CAR IN NEUTRAL! Then pull over and turn off the engine. Perhaps you could print this in giant type on the front page. It would be more useful than articles trying to scare people into thinking their car is going to kill them.

    Andrea Yanowitz, Tom McKnight, Cal Schrotenboer, Gerald Herzog, Catherine Knoll, Stephanie Kareht, Helen Colombo, Duane Allen, Julie Schaer and so many more

    A Alas, shifting a Prius into neutral is not as simple as with most models, as my neighbor Emmett discovered. He's a technology lover, one of those guys who loves to figure out how things work and why.

    He took his 2006 Prius through some neighborhood streets at low speeds and tried several times to shift into neutral. He failed the first four times before finally succeeding. Then he fired off a letter to Consumer Reports detailing his difficulties. Why was it so hard?

    A traditional car shifts into neutral with one easy step. All you do is push the shift lever to the "N" position. But in the Prius Emmett found out, you must first push the shift lever to "N," then hold it in that position and finally wait a second or two before the transmission shifts into neutral.

    Another option is to turn a runaway car off, but that is not easy with the Prius and a growing number of other models. James Sikes, the driver in the San Diego whose actions are coming under scrutiny, says he wasn't aware of how to shift his Prius into neutral. Whether this was a hoax or not remains to be seen, but his statement is plausible.


    http://www.mercurynews.com/columns/ci_14664514?nclick_check=1
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    You mean if I had the advice of a self serving greedy lawyer.........

    No, I was thinking of one that was doing his job properly in acting for you, and that's by looking after your best interests.

    A polygraph test can only do one positive thing, and that's to give ammunition to the other side if you fail it. Passing it if you're telling the truth isn't a given, and neither is failing it if you're lying, but it's very hard to recover from the position of having failed, for whatever reason.
    Your reputation would be blackened in the minds of people like andres3 forever. ;)
    Much better not to allow that position to potentially arise in the first place.

    (No, I'm not a lawyer, either greedy or altruistic. :) )
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Two outside experts, however, said it would be a mistake not to test for unknown electronic gremlins, such as electromagnetic interference, static electricity or software glitches. Those problems, they said, can gum up electronics and then disappear.

    NHTSA said in there testing Toyotas for UA several years ago that they did some crazy things when high voltage EMF was present. If you look at your Bing maps closeup you will see several high voltage power lines cross Interstate 8 right about where he said he stepped on the gas to pass and it kept going faster after he let off the throttle. Did the testers go to the scene and test or just at the local bar?
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Toyota officials said they believed Sikes was hitting the pedals lightly, which would have prevented the brake-override system from kicking in.

    Just as touching the brake pedal is supposed to release the cruise if set, so the brake override system is supposed to work too. Now we here you have to press the pedal heavily?
    Also, just a small point, but shouldn't it be called the throttle override system? After all, it is supposed to override the throttle.

    Toyota said its tests showed the car's electronics were working fine.
    "If there were some kind of electronic problem, you would think it might actually stay permanent," Michels said. "When your TV goes on the fritz, when electronic stuff goes on the fritz, it doesn't just do it once and never do it again."


    How can they say this stuff with a straight face? In guess they think no member of the public has ever experienced an intermittent electrical fault in an appliance or a software problem in a computer. Unbelievable!!!
  • nmt001nmt001 Member Posts: 124
    edited March 2010
    Correction for post #7110:
    I would say the Toyota (customers) of those recalled vehicles are in a no win situation.
  • cgollihercgolliher Member Posts: 16
    I have a 2010 Prius that I want to DUMP! Any takers, contact me. Paid $33,000 has all options. Some front end damage, at the autobody shop now. No major damage. Went off the road into tall grass. Will be fixed and ready to roll in 2 days. This message is for all you Toyota lovers. As for me, I am going back to the to Ford!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2010
    No buying and selling on the forum please.

    I'm going to link people to one of your other posts about your accident since I know people will be curious:

    cgolliher, "Toyota Prius Brake Problems" #221, 5 Mar 2010 2:04 pm
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    How can they say this stuff with a straight face? In guess they think no member of the public has ever experienced an intermittent electrical fault in an appliance or a software problem in a computer. Unbelievable!!!

    That's why I wrote a post yesterday titled "Either Toyota is stupid; or we are"
  • nmt001nmt001 Member Posts: 124
    Correction for post #7099:
    then why did the investigators (find)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    You keep missing the point. We are not in court here, we are simply trying to get to the bottom of a mystery that has taken lives by finding out who is being truthful. Any tools that are available for use should be used.

    Maybe you have a different agenda?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    >Toyota said its tests showed the car's electronics were working fine.
    "If there were some kind of electronic problem, you would think it might actually stay permanent," Michels said. "When your TV goes on the fritz, when electronic stuff goes on the fritz, it doesn't just do it once and never do it again."

    toyota's Phoenix PR folks at work again. They obviously have never used computers. Many strange things happen that don't happen the next time the computer is turned on. Many a blue screen has occurred only to be fixed after a restart.

    They are using trite statements that they know many folks will unwittingly accept because they sound good. Was it Barnum and Bailey who said a sucker is born every minute?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    edited March 2010
    It is not up to Sikes to prove he didn't stage anything; it's up to the CHP or toyota to prove he did. But of course, the smear opperation is working like the OJ trial to put out the PR mantra.

    Saying that the brake pads don't have the right kind of wear pattern to have been applied during an unintended acceleration event is silly. Applying brakes hard for a time and them being distracted trying to talk on the phone, looking at the shift lever which a typical driver may never have put into neutral having always used P, D, and R, and just letting up on the brake for a time only to reapply with more force after a short time, are all examples of the way ordinary people would do things.

    I wonder if toyota/lexus has found any negatives in the background of the lady in New York who hit the stone wall at the church, was it? Maybe she had a bad prayer session the night before. Maybe she had missed a payment on her burial plot? Surely they can dig up some dirt there. But they are strangely silent on that event, aren't they. OR is it Phoenix who's doing the talking here as the PR mouthpiece?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Sikes would have to be psike-o to pull off the scam 'Yota fanboys are suggesting. Toyota has enough power to literally obliterate him. His previous financial problems would pale in comparison to the legal problems which he will soon have.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    >Toyota has enough power to literally obliterate him.

    Toyota Phoenix PR firm has enough power to literally obliterate him.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • nmt001nmt001 Member Posts: 124
    edited March 2010
    Mr. Sikes did not refuse to put the car to neutral. It appeared that he was overwhelmed by the uncontrollable acceleration and his mind did not register what the 911 operator asked him to do.
    The 911 operator asked if there was a way he could take the car out of gear. It is an indirect way of asking if he could shift the gear to neutral. I think more drivers understand the phrase "shift the gear to neutral" than "take the car out of gear" and the instruction in the form of a question "if there is a way to" is less effective than just telling the driver what to do.
    I suggest 911 operators just tell the driver "Shift the gear to neutral" in future calls for providing plain and commanding instruction in what to do in vehicles with sudden unintended acceleration.

    Mr. Sikes replied "I can't hold the g*****n phone. I don't want to go over the side."
    It is apparent that Mr. Sikes was unable to handle the phone call and control the speeding Prius on the winding stretch of interstate 8 simultaneously, so he was trying to control the speeding vehicle instead of listening to instruction on the phone which was becoming more and more inaudible.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOMcmPNbpZY&feature=related

    Many Toyota lackeys attacked Mr. Sikes, calling him "an idiot", "a retard" or "the balloon boy" saying that he he deserved to die just for not knowing that he needed to shift the gear to neutral or saying that he intentionally put down the phone or ignoring instruction so that he could continue his hoax.

    I consider that Mr. Sikes who lacked the proper knowledge to stop a runaway Toyota is not a smart driver but I certainly would not consider him dumb or retarded or another balloon boy.
    However, Mr. Sikes did have good instinct for survival. Since his mind sensed that he could not multi-task, he decided to concentrate on controlling the vehicle and try to get help from the CHP officer instead.

    "Tests carried out by scientists at the Transport Research Laboratory established that driving behavior is impaired more by using a mobile phone than by being over the legal alcohol limit".
    http://www.emailwire.com/release/Talking-on-a-Mobile-Phone-Whilst-Driving-Is-Mor- - - - - - - - - - e-Dangerous-than-Being-Drunk-Behind-the-Wheel.html

    Therefore, in the case of Mr. Sikes, he made the correct decision under his limited ability. If he had continued to multi-task by trying to get instruction from the phone that was becoming more and more inaudible, he might have ended up hitting other vehicles or veered off the road due to the Mobile Phone Drunken Equivalent Effect.

    Andres3 thinks that Mr. Sikes SUA experience was fake because he thinks that "If this SUA problem is real, then it should happen also to real people that are not "bums.""

    The testimony of the CHP officer who said he saw the brake lights on the speeding Prius and smelled the brake burning proves that the SUA was real.
    The finding of the investigators that the front brake pad of the Prius were completely worn out and the real brake pads were worn down to about 0.02 inch also supports Mr. Sikes report of SUA.

    Yes, SUA in Prius does happen to what Andres3 considers as "real people".
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J11SC8rr5Gk

    Now if you go to the the NHTSA website and check out the complaints related to Vehicle Speech Control you can see that there are 234 complaints from "real people" related to Vehicle Speed Control of Prius for the model years from the 2005 to 2009.
    http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/

    Here are just some examples of complaint about Sudden Unintended Acceleration of Prius not unlike that experienced by Mr. Sikes:

    Complaint Number:10304345 VIN : JTDKB20U977...
    ON OCTOBER 19, 2009 I WAS DRIVING SOUTH BOUND ON THE I-5 WHEN THE GAS PEDAL ON MY 2007 TOYOTA PRIUS GOT STUCK AND IT WASN'T THE FLOOR MAT. I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE A FLOOR MAT IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE MAJOR PROBLEM IS ON THE PRIUS THE PUSH START BUTTON FAILED SO YOU COULDN'T TURN OF THE VEHICLE AND WHEN YOU TRIED TO PUT IT IN NEUTRAL IT WOULD FAIL (NOT SURE WHY), I AM ASSUMING DO THE SPEED YOU ARE GOING THE COMPUTER DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO PUT IT NEUTRAL OR TURN IT OFF. *TR

    Complaint Number:10303796 VIN : JTDKB20U277...
    TL*THE CONTACT OWNS A 2007 TOYOTA PRIUS. WHILE DRIVING APPROXIMATELY 45 MPH, THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL BECAME STUCK AND SHE COULD NOT SLOW DOWN. SHE IMMEDIATELY ENGAGED THE BRAKE PEDAL AND TURNED OFF THE IGNITION. WHEN SHE RESTARTED THE VEHICLE, IT BEGAN TO OPERATE NORMALLY. THE DEALER STATED THAT THERE WERE NO DIAGNOSTIC CODES INDICATING THAT THERE WAS A FAILURE AND THAT THE FLOOR MATS MAY HAVE CAUSED THE FAILURE. SHE WAS ALSO TOLD THAT THE COMPUTER WAS SET TO THE DRIVING HABITS OF THE DRIVER AND HER INCONSISTENT DRIVING BEHAVIOR "CONFUSED" THE COMPUTER. THE FAILURE PREVIOUSLY OCCURRED IN 2007. SHE CALLED THE MANUFACTURER AND WAS OFFERED NO ASSISTANCE. THE CURRENT MILEAGE WAS APPROXIMATELY 10,000. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS APPROXIMATELY 425.

    So all you Toyota lackeys out there need to stop attacking Mr. Spike just because he happens to be in a bad financial situation. He is not the only Prius owner who had experienced Sudden unintended acceleration. He just happened to be one with financial woes that make him vulnerable to the attack of Toyota lackeys.

    I believe that Toyota knows the Sudden Unintended Acceleration problem in Prius as well as in other models with on board computer for drive by wire is real and that floor mat entrapment and sticky pedals are not the only causes for the SUA.
    Instead of doing its best to find out the cause of the problems related to the electronics in the DBW system, Toyota is in a state of denial and playing the blame game on its unfortunate customers.

    Shame on you Toyota!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    edited March 2010
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0db60b/220

    Wow. The brakes didn't work right floating between regen and friction. Maybe that's why Mr. Sike's brakes were ineffective? With a computer that's lost its mind, it doesn't operate brakes properly. That also explains why the silly brake override didn't disconnect.

    Imagine though running off a curve that you've taken many times before because your brake application didn't work. Lucky there wasn't a power pole in your way.

    I hit one of those once in the rain. (Well, most people wouldn't hit the pole more than once, would they?) Luckily the repairman who was installing the telephone at the rural house was inside the house testing the phone and wondering why it didn't work even though he just connected the wires. I was not driving a lexus or a toyota.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    If you follow the build in Toyota? The production has shut down To a dismal trickle (no cars no sales) Then my guess nobody noticed what GM and Chrysler did for three months when both shut down and Ford some how had more sales than them. It must have been Gods will.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    You gotta love those lexus-toyota folk: always blame the customer.
    "SHE WAS ALSO TOLD THAT THE COMPUTER WAS SET TO THE DRIVING HABITS OF THE DRIVER AND HER INCONSISTENT DRIVING BEHAVIOR "CONFUSED" THE COMPUTER."

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2010
    For those that think Sikes Prius is an isolated incident that got lots of National attention. I would suggest going to the Prius thread. It seems the 2010 Prius has taken the hybrid to a new level of poor engineering. Here is just one unhappy 2010 Prius owner among many posting here on Edmund's.

    I had my 2010 Brake Fix about 3 weeks ago.(after reporting the problem to the dealer and being told there is nothing wrong 4 times) The problem of slowing down, hitting a bumb and the temporary loss of brakes is gone. What the fix has now created is another problem that I have now experienced 3 times since the "fix"- when I am slowing down the car and hit a pot hole or bumb while turinng the car lunges forward. It is not something that I can not control, but the car litterally rattles and moves forward. I have contacted toyoto corporate and have an appointment with service for Friday- I can pretty much guarantee they will tell me as they have in the past there is nothing wrong with the brakes- my experience with my Prius has changed my opinion of Toyota, and I truly believe the Prius is over "electronic" and they simply do not know how to fix it- My original intention with the 2010 was to allow my 16 year old twins to drive this car when they are able to drive. I would never permit a new driver to use this car- the braking is still a major issue and Toyota after the recall has failed to address the "new" problem..shame on Toyota
    I have every intention of seeing this through, I did not buy a new car only to have to alter my driving, while Toyota denies their Gremlins...I intend to utlilize my rights under the Lemon Law in my state and through arbritation..the question is, when they refund my money what "car" shall I buy? S


    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0db60b/223#MSG223

    Something I have noticed different in this thread. It used to be the faithful jumping onto the complaining Prius owner. It seems the pendulum has swung with many Prius owners experiencing multiple problems. The satisfaction survey also bears this out.
  • nmt001nmt001 Member Posts: 124
    edited March 2010
    In fact I read that quite a few customers who complained about sudden unintended acceleration of their Toyota vehicles got the same excuse from the dealers,-that their DBW computer is set to learn the driving habit of the owner. So when your driving habit changes or when a different family member drives the vehicle, the acceleration feels different or the computer may get confused.
    What a load of bull crap to cover up the SUA problem!
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    It sounds so lame, I hope a good lawyer will teach Toyota how to build computers which hard to "confuse".
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    I guess not.

    In early 2006 my father became unable to drive at the age of 84. He gave me his 2006 Avalon XLS with 6400 miles on it. While he wasn't your typical older driver, having been a state trooper and safety engineer for trucking companies, the car acted very strangely when I first started driving it. Most of what I am talking about are the shift points in the transmission changing as it learned my habits. It drove perfectly when I putt-putted around and let the transmission shift early in every gear - great gas mileage too. It didn't want to rev up and go when I got it, but it learned to. Of course I never achieved the 31 mpg my father did. I only averaged 27.5 mpg.

    Heck, my '02 Subaru Forester S Premium learned my habits when new and then again after 4 years when I replaced the battery.

    I bought a 2010 HL Limited in January, a made in Japan vehicle fwiw, and after 2000 miles it is adjusting to my driving habits.

    None of this is new information or secret information. Google is your friend. Or simply go over to, say, the Subaru forums and ask around.

    John
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    From a post at subaruforums.org Googled up at random...

    "The TCU should learn and adjust to the new driving conditions, but it does not happen instantly. Wait awhile and see if it changes. People say you can clear the old habits by unplugging the ECU, but I don't know if that affects the TCU.

    At the Subaru plant in LaFayette I did see new cars coming off the line and having their shift points given an initial setting. The car was put on rollers, the driver plugged a hand held computer into the diagnostic port under the dash, and ran the rpms up and down in gear while setting the initial default shift points.

    After that, the TCU apparently learns from a heavy or light footed driver where the shift points should be. I am light footed and my car upshifts at 1500 rpm. I guess it would learn to delay the upshift to higher rpm if I kept making it downshift after it upshifted."
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Man, what a load of bullcrap !!

    It is not that complicated. Mr. Sikes is a big fat LIAR. He is probably in full panic mode about now as he has been found out. I expect to hear a full confession from him any day now. If not, Toyota should make an example of him !!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I am afraid these folks do not want to hear reason and the truth. It is like trying to reason with a lynch mob. They don't care if they are right or wrong, they just want blood. This whole fiasco is a good lesson in mob psychology !! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, if Mr.Sikes is a liar, the answer to his problems is in the nightstand drawer. Death will be preferable to what Toyota and the Feds are going to do to him for perjuring himself.
  • rcummelinrcummelin Member Posts: 184
    "If there were some kind of electronic problem, you would think it might actually stay permanent," Michels said. "When your TV goes on the fritz, when electronic stuff goes on the fritz, it doesn't just do it once and never do it again."

    This guy is VERY confused! Ignorant too. Somehow he is attempting to state that throttle control is all electronic hardware, and he couldn't be further from the truth.

    It's the software that runs in the hardware that can & will fail intermittently, causing problems and then disappearing later, like after the key has been on/off cycled.

    It's simply an inability or a desire on the manufacturer's part to not thoroughly test the software systems adequately, which is horrifically expensive & very time consuming. The more (software-driven) computers that are included in a overall system design, the longer it will take to verify and validate that every single possible interaction between all these computers has been tested and understood. This is not a linear process.

    I'm not saying Toyota hasn't done testing, simply that it may not have as complete as it needed to be, for a variety of possible reasons.
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    If you follow the build in Toyota? The production has shut down To a dismal trickle (no cars no sales) Then my guess nobody noticed what GM and Chrysler did for three months when both shut down and Ford some how had more sales than them. It must have been Gods will.

    I would respond to this post, but it makes no sense to me.

    I'm just saying that other manufacturers are offering some pretty sweet incentives too. Not just Toyota.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It is like trying to reason with a lynch mob.

    More like the French Revolution. The peons are tired of Toyota telling them their cars are working fine, when they are not. Off with Toyota's head. :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm just saying that other manufacturers are offering some pretty sweet incentives too. Not just Toyota.

    You are absolutely right. It is a grand time to shop for a new vehicle. Though all that glitters is not gold. Most incentives are OR cheap financing. I want more than a lousy couple grand knocked off of MSRP. When they get well below Invoice I get interested. Vehicles are still way over priced.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,135
    silver....car sales, as they've always been, are highly competitive. Toyota announced incentives. Most of the rest followed suit. They aren't going to let Toyota buy its way back into the marketplace that easily. Ford, Hyundai, GM, Nissan, etc have taken some pretty big chunks of marketshare from Toyota. They aren't about to give it back, especially if they can tie up a buyer into their models and brands that from folks who may not have considered a Fusion, a Malibu, an Altima, etc after being a loyal Toyota customer.

    .
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    You keep missing the point. We are not in court here, we are simply trying to get to the bottom of a mystery that has taken lives by finding out who is being truthful. Any tools that are available for use should be used.
    Maybe you have a different agenda?


    A polygraph is very poor tool for getting at the truth (which is the only agenda I have), and I'll repeat what I said before:

    "Passing it if you're telling the truth isn't a given, and neither is failing it if you're lying, but it's very hard to recover from the position of having failed, for whatever reason."

    Regardless of the facts it would be quite possible both Sikes, the CHP officer, and Toyota personnel to all pass the test, or all fail, or to have an assortment of results.

    Whatever the results, you could use them construct logical and convincing arguments to support either side.
    Remember Aldrich Ames, the ex FBI agent serving life for selling secrets to the Russians? He took and passed FBI administered polygraph tests for 31 years.

    However, show me a test that guarantees an accurate result 100% of the time and I'll support it fully.
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    edited March 2010
    silver....car sales, as they've always been, are highly competitive. Toyota announced incentives. Most of the rest followed suit.

    All that I know for sure is that Toyota was offering 0% 60 month financing on the Corolla and .9% 60 month financing on the Camry back in January when I purchased my 2010 Camry. So the current incentives are nothing new.

    I'm not sure who follows who. Maybe this is just a sign of the times in automotive sales.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm not sure who follows who. Maybe this is just a sign of the times in automotive sales.

    If the economy is in the toilet and homes are 30-40% less. Vehicles should also be that much less. We shall see how well the high prices hold up when China and India flood our market over the next decade.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    What's this "Phoenix" reference and do your Buicks ever act like a home computer? If they're like my Camrys, the answer is "no" I'd suspect.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    edited March 2010
    Instead of these armchair analyses, I'd suggest everyone read this post by Paul Niedermeyer from The Truth About Cars. TTAC actually rented the same model year Prius as Sikes had and tried to replicate the scenario that was played out on I-8 last week. I would highly recommend all to read the article in its entirety and if you have the patience, all of the commentary that follows.

    Seems like the commentators are on the whole much less dogmatic than those posting on this thread. In particular, here's a good summation from "CatFan78."

    Paul, sounds like you proved exactly what Toyota said happpened, and also validates what CHP observed.

    You drove the Prius with light brake (less than 50% which didn’t trigger the brake override). The vehicle went between 45 and 90. And after a few miles, you smell and see smoke from the brakes. Isn’t that EXACTLY what Toyota said happened? And that explains what the CHP officer saw.

    The fact that the Prius computer recorded 250 alternating accelerator and brake presses, tells us 100% this is a fraud. By the way for those confused, this is NOT an EDR recorder. This is the logging of the hybrid computer, which is why there is more information.

    And the other inconsistencies in Sikes story. Wouldn’t do what the 911 operator or police officer said (shift into neutral, car would flip LOL). Everyone wants brake override and the Prius has it, which greatly diminishes the possibility that Sikes is telling the truth. And all the background dirt on this guy. He said he just wanted a new car from Toyota to CNN last week. Wonder why – he is bankrupt and Toyota was getting ready to repossess the car. And now he has the same laywer representing the deceased CHP officers family. Why does he need a lawyer, if he’s not suing, or not afraid of being prosecuted for fraud?

    Toyota and other auto makers may have problems. But time to move on from this obvious fraud. The guy had motive, means, and opportunity. Sikes picked the wrong vehicle to try the hoax one, with the brake override, and the computer logging exactly what he did.

    Now that we know the Prius logs this information, should be easy to tell what happened to that crash in NY. Want to bet the computer just shows an accelerator press? Any takers?

    People who want to bash Toyota, so be it. But if you hang your bashing on this incident, you are only helping Toyota look good. Sikes is a fraud.

    Thanks Paul, you proved Sikes is a fruad, and explain what the CHP officer saw. Good work.
  • rcummelinrcummelin Member Posts: 184
    edited March 2010
    What's this "Phoenix" reference and do your Buicks ever act like a home computer? If they're like my Camrys, the answer is "no" I'd suspect.

    I know nothing about that Phoenix post, but I am one who believes that car manufacturers absolutely should NOT follow the Microsoft business/sales model that seems to be something like: "Let the customers find all the software defects, and we'll fix them only if we think they're serious."

    Microsoft's software defects do not (usually) place lives in danger, although that's a poor excuse for what they do.
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