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I'm going to modify that slightly, and say they're the Bible for import buyers. A lot of people went with Asian imports in search of reliability, and those are the CR subscribers.
For instance, I bet they have much higher market share in import-friendly Cali than they do in, say, Detroit.
Pretty obvious they were trying to get it to roll/tip. After 37 attempts they finally do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui9oAeXniqg&feature=related
Then they change the course, and try again, and it took 15 runs for them to get it to tip again.
Any how, don't want to stray too far off topic here, but the point is Consumer Reports clearly pushes these vehicles to their limits and beyond in an attempt to:
A) sell magazines
C) assert their independence
D) reveal potential safety risks
The real answer could be:
E) all of the above.
Wow, that's one expensive front bumper. I think I could replace 6 bumpers in 6 luxury cars for that price; let alone a Prius bumper.
Tread Width, Front 67.9 in
Tread Width, Rear 69.1 in
So even taller, but a lot wider.
That was for Gary.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The Lexus GX did NOT tip, instead it slid out.
That is a hugely important distinction to point out. It's almost like night and day. Failure being "possible" and failure "actually occurring" are two different animals.
I don't care if it takes 3,700 tries to make a vehicle flip over. If it flips over on a flat test track, that is completely unacceptable. It doesn't take a lot of vehicles on the road X a lot of different drivers X a lot of different roads X a lot of different miles to make 37 attempts by one reasearch team seem miniscule in comparison. That's downright microscopic.
It may not be a reasonable speed to TRY and take a turn in a tall SUV. However, it is perfectly reasonable that a typical driver will attempt to make such a turn as an emergency lane avoidance move in an emergency situation. There are so many theoretical scenarios where a higher than the recommended speed manuever will be attempted by drivers; that it is important CR cover some of the worst scenarios imaginable.
Also, just because a vehicle flips doesn't mean you can't buy it. It just means as a driver you should take extra precaution while driving it to avoid flipping it. I think truck drivers do the same thing when driving a big rig vs. driving the weekend Ferrari.
What evidence do you have other than false assumptions that CR catered to the import buying crowd?
Did they offer discounted subscription offers to people living in CA? Did they offer rebates to those who mailed in proof of registration to an imported vehicle?
Absent something like the above, I find your claim that asian import buyers are CR's original subscriber base to be baseless.
I think the reason Detriot has a small CR subscriber base compared to CA (likely) is because they'd rather stick their heads in the sand in Detroit and go into bankruptcy than deal with the FACTS of life. Also, Detroit's probably too poor to afford CR subscriptions right now.
In fact, Detroit is probably one of the few places doing worse economically than even California right now.
The people who drive the cars they Recommend are most likely to buy the magazine.
Over time, that's been a whole lot of Toyota owners.
Hang out in ANY domestic vs. import thread, and the import lovers quote CR while the domestic lovers bash them (with few exceptions).
Some ascribe much more credibility to CR than do I.
In this case they have egg on their figurative face because of blind recommendations through the years. They had to retract their automatic recommendation of the Avalon IIRC. And there have been transmission problems or software shift lags and didn't CR have to try to mitigate the damage of the automatic recommendations there?
I think they are trying to keep their own image here more than caring about honorable evaluations that are fair and even handed. But they are doing the right thing.
What I find very amusing is that toyota-lexus and exponent have apparently decided it's best to stop selling the SUVs instead of trying to bull their way through as they did with the original SUA problems (for 6 years).
On the TV news the talk is now about the damaged reputation for toyota-lexus. That has changed from the oh oh, another runaway problem, but everything is okay folks; now it's about the loss of credibility on the part of toyota-lexus.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What I find funny is, CR had every reason not to recommend Ford, GM, or Chrysler products for years. The majority, though there are many people who had no problems, of these customers had problem after problem with their American products, poor customer service from their American auto companies, and the quality was not there compared to their German, Korean, and Japanese competition.
Now that was several years ago. In the last few years, that has changed. In last years issue, almost the entire Ford lineup got much above avg reliability ratings and almost everyone is on the recommended list. GM has had many improvements in rankings and several of their products are now on the recommended list. Chrysler of course still is very poorly rated but you would expect that since they still produce crappy products.
What drive me crazy though is, despite the fact many American products get great rankings and recommendations GM, Ford, and Chrysler fanboys to whine about their bias against those companies, despite the fact that once Ford and now GM improved their product quality and customer service they are now getting better ratings and more recommendations, yet when you mention it to them, they give excuse after excuse why CR is being forced to do this. So the bottom line is, you can't please anyone. Personally, I don't care if they think the mag is bias or not. It doesn't effect me one way or another.
To me the bias was never there. For God sake, they just trashed the Lexus GX in their latest road test, and several Nissan SUVs and trucks have gotten several avg/mediocre ratings and reviews along with BMW and Audi!
I only use them for the reliability history information and not really for the reviews!
What you say is very true, but it is the import lovers who are always right, and the domestic lovers who were and ARE always wrong.
Case in point:
GM, Chrysler - recent bankruptcies despite massive bailouts. for Chrysler, not the first time this has happened either.
Big 3 from Japan - all doing well and weathering the financial storm and meltdown just fine.
Resale values - Big 3 US, SUCK, Big 3 Japan, very high nice resale values.
I don't buy the self fulfilling prophecy thing. I was a believer in CR before I purchased my Dodge Neon. I just purchased it when it first came out before CR could fully bash it.
I already knew that Toyota's were extremely reliable, my Parents had purchased an early 90's 4runner previously, and of course CR rated all Toyota's highly (except the Tercel/Echo). I knew that Honda's were extremely reliable (my Dad had purchased an early 80's Accord when I was a very young child. My father warned me about American cars as being unreliable before pulling the trigger on the Dodge. I told him this wasn't the old Chrysler, this was the "NEW DODGE" (foolishly fell for their marketing lies!).
So we owned a Toyota and a Honda well before I ever read a CR magazine or book. Their reviews matched reality. After a year or two of being out they started to bash the Neon's reliability and dependability. Their reviews matched reality. CR's "prophecies" came true, not the other way around. So I've purchased a vehicle CR bashed, and deservedly so! I didn't cancel my subscription and put my head in the sand because of it.
If what CR was publishing wasn't reflecting reality, they'd have NO subcriber base left. If the cars they praised sucked, they wouldn't be worshipped as a bible. If the cars they bashed didn't suck, they wouldn't be worshipped as a bible. CR's success fully relies upon their OWN reliability in PREDICTING and MEASURING the reliability of the cars they judge. I remember in the 90's CR was really the ONLY publication with the "GUTS" to bash the Big 3 domestic lines pretty much across the board. All the other "paid for" advertisement magazines are way too liberal with positive praise.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Check yourself. Do you have evidence that the beliefs are false? Of course not. You have an opinion also and you have every right to it just as others do to their own.
>they'd rather stick their heads in the sand in Detroit
DO you have proof of this?
>Also, Detroit's probably too poor to afford CR subscriptions
Do you have proof of this?
>Detroit's probably too poor to afford CR subscriptions right now.
Do you have proof of this?
I have spent some time in the western part of Wayne County the last few months since Thanksgiving visiting friends who moved there. I can assure you there is a LOT of money there and people are having a great time.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Over at Edmunds Inc., the California-based automotive data analytics firm, CEO Jeremy Anwyl says he has never seen anything like the Toyota recall fiasco. But that’s not because of the numbers involved. It is the extreme reaction to the company’s fall from grace that is making this relatively typical automotive product hiccup stand out.
Americans get more fearful, paranoid, and downright hysterical as a group with every passing decade. Too bad for Toyota, I guess, but that's what you get for depending too much on a market full of hysterical people.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No need to buy it.
The CR is available from your local library via your home computer if they have access to databases and research databases. The current magazine is available in PDF form article by article. I just checked. EBSCOHost is the database and it's in EBSCOHost Premier. All I needed was my library card number and clicking on the link for research and databases.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There is a Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings discussion for dumping on CR.
Toyota is providing loaners for GX 460 owners. Doubt that they'll have many takers.
Lexus Temporarily Suspends GX 460 Sales (Inside Line)
Naturally Edmunds puts this doughnut cutting photo up to accompany the article.
Yeah, but in fairness the previous Avalon had been consistently reliable.
As soon as that changed, they removed their Recommended stamp.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
That's a nifty action photo.
Are the Edmunds front license plates one of the perks available to Edmunds members as part of our membership fees?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's what I don't get. I've heard of their avoidance manuever, but this isn't the same test. Must be part of their handling course or something.
Haven't seen the Moose avoidance test.
The other thing is, look at the vehicles they targeted for this tipping issue:
Suzuki Samurai
Isuzu Trooper
Acura SLX
Lexus GX
Notice something?
All imports. All Japanese brands, to be specific.
And I will repeat - Car & Driver actually tipped a Jeep Liberty, and CR never went after Jeep.
I think part of that is because the domestic auto industry was really hurting, and this could mean a change of tides.
That plus the speed of the internet has sensationalized everything.
Remember, this is 54 deaths vs. 1600 deaths for the side-saddle gas tanks, and noone is expressing outrage over those (nor has GM changed any of them).
Standards are much higher today.
Side saddle tanks killed thousands. Action plan: get Dateline to apologize, then do nothing.
Today, a car slides sideways. Noone is hurt. No matter, halt all sales, give customers loaners, and fix it anyway.
It's a different day and age.
I got burned on an incompetent review of a 35MM Camera in the 1960s. Have not trusted them since. Toyota must have forgotten to send the BIG donation this year. :shades:
On the GX460. I think the 4Runner has to be a lot lighter as well as lower CG. It is only available with the V6 and 4 banger. The added weight of the V8 engine would throw the vehicle off as well. Lack of testing it sounds like to me.
Good thing there wasn't a curb there. :shades:
Edmunds front license plates
Don't quote me but it looks Photoshopped to me. I do have a "My Smart Buy " Edmunds frame on my Outback.
Juice, there's also a different version of the moose avoidance test in Germany (VDA Lane Change Test). Maybe they adopted their own since the first Mercedes A Class cars failed the Scandinavian version. :shades:
Gary, I've learned to trust the enthusiast sites for just about any purchase. The "fanboys" really figure out the good and bad points. Sometimes to an extreme however. Same reason I put more stock in the long term test results here than the first drives. Initial impressions are important but daily use reports over a few months or a year are hard to beat. I'd rather go to vacuum fanboy site than depend on a magazine review for my next hoover.
Of course I have evidence. Logic dictates that with a large sample size you will get even distribution from a select group. Since CR offered no discounts to import owners to subscribe, there is not logical reason to believe they catered to import owners. There is no requirement to be a fan of import cars to subscribe. There is no logical basis to believe the subscriber base is biased.
DO you have proof of this?
The proof is in the pudding. Except for Ford, GM & Chrysler chose to ignore their quality and design deficiencies and stick their head in the sands. The proof is that they went bankrupt in all their glory and required humongous bailouts to keep standing and still went bankrupt anyway.
Ford was the only company that was proactive and decided to make changes that would lead to some positive results in an ocean of waste.
GM & Chrsyler were absolutely 100% unresponsive in the auto industry since the first bailout in the 70's.
I'm not sure that I've ever read a stranger sentence here on Edmunds, yet I totally get that.
When I wanted to pick a GPS, I went to GPSpassion. Those guys are hard core. They get EXTREMELY upset when new models show fewer street names at certain zoom levels.
You no doubt know several vacuum fanboy sites.....
Fezo, you're old enough. Maybe you remember the 11 year old kid who collected vacuums and wound up on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson? And he wasn't the only one.
Housewives back in the day never figured it out. If they could just convince the manufacturers to make a 4WD self propelled vacuum with a HEMI, the guys would have done all the floor cleaning. My Hoover is a classic Celebrity Air-Ride model S3005, circa 1973 btw.
can you find out who embellished it?
lots of them buy toyota's because was considered to be a low risk choice.
let's see how that works out over the next few years.
ROTFLMAO!!
You would have to go to several sources to get all the info they conveniently summarize for you. Who else tests the visible distance of headlights, payload and tow ratings, and the number of LATCH anchors? Both IIHS and NHTSA crash test scores, cost of ownership, satisfaction and reliability surveys, turning circle, cargo box volume, etc.
Good luck finding all that in any one other place. You get 0-60 and whatever the manufacturer said in their press kit.
Another thing - ever notice a new car comes out, and the car mags rave about it? 2 years later the reviews are tepid. A lot of car mags suffer from "New Kid on the Block" syndrome, i.e. they love anything new.
That doesn't happen at CR, some new cars are blasted (Honda Insight, for instance), while a well-reviewed car will remain a Top Pick for half a decade. The exception is when reliability drops, e.g. Chevrolet Avalanche was a Top Pick for years until that happened.
Sure, you gotta take it FWIW, like anything, but there is useful information there you will not find anywhere else. Magazines will tell you which cars have HIDs, but CR will tell you which ones actually work well.
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2010/04/il-track-tested-2011-ford-musta- ng-v6-vs-2010-hyundai-genesis-coupe-38.html
Notice there is NO DRIVER in the IS Convertible. UA?
I've played with Photoshop enough to know I'm no good at it and other than the tags on the Edmunds cars, I can't spot the shopping. I have no idea who does it back in Santa Monica.
Maybe it has the GX' stability control program and Consumer Reports was testing all 3 side-by-side.
Or is it side-by-slide?
Dr David Michaels is United States Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health.
Website's new article reveals many of the same points I was forewarning bloggers here about type of firm Exponent is and what they do. And how Exponent does only articles/research/reports to support their clients. They are quite good at making truth appear false.
I was quite surprised to see this article. This is same as what I had reported to you and had provided links as support for you to review.
Will be interesting to see what retaliation occurs because of this article.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/2010/04/14/manufacturing-doubt-in-toyota-sudden-un- intended-acceleration/
1. Genesis
2. Mustang
3. Camaro
4. Challenger
I wish they had included an Infiniti G37 Coupe.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460