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Show me the evidence that Ford had known it since 1992. If you can not, it would be pure speculation on your part.
How many Ford caught on fire due to the switch? When was the 1st incidents? If not for material aging, it would have happened many times in 18 years, starting 1992.
Doom. Gloom. Doom and gloom.
Toyota. Doomed. It true.
Buy yourself one. Take chance.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Toyota March sales up 40%.
http://blog.taragana.com/business/2010/03/31/toyota-says-us-march-sales-up-40-pc- t-company-offered-big-incentives-to-combat-recalls-47088/
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Hmmm, I don't think the investors in Toyota share your exuberance. It has not kept up with the S&P. Going from near $140 down to $79 is not good in this market. Look at Ford. They are above where they were in 2007. Most solid stocks are back at least close to the 2007 highs. Toyota is down more than 40%. Honda or Nissan would have been much better buys. Safer cars to drive also.
Lakers 87 Thunder 79 :P
Maybe it was the Devil's fault, not Toyota's UA happened. :P
Source: Toyota to agree to $16.4 million fine (MSNBC)
I wonder how they will play this game.
Krzys
They will point out that they are selling lots of cars, and they'll not mention the huge incentives it takes. :surprise:
They will also point out that the stock price is holding up, so far.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think the real issue is Toyota has spread their engineers out too thinly to thoroughly test all the electronics involved with a computer controlled vehicle. They may test a new platform then tack another 1000 lbs of vehicle on that platform and expect it to handle the same. It sounds like that is what they did with the GX460.
Lexus has confirmed what CR testing revealed. Why didn't Lexus find it first? Or did they and just hoped no one would notice? Then when some fat cat rolls his new GX they use their tried and true response of "DRIVER ERROR".
My feelings are no, I don't think so, but on the other hand I don't think they're doomed either!
Did you forget the CHP and his family was killed in a runaway Lexus in San Diego which started these huge Toyota recalls?
And the runaway Prius on TV also in San Diego?
I know that those of US in San Diego do not like being a part of CA. But we have more than our fair share of SUA accidents. The accident that got ToyLex in all this hot water is from So CA. Google Saylor Toyota and you will get 326,000 links. I am sure if you were patient enough to sort through the NHTSA SUA complaints you would find 100s in So CA. alone.
I do agree that we are stuck with more Toyotas than any other state. Keep an eye on your rear view mirror. :P
There's a lot of noise on both sides, mostly mud slinging, but this post was insightful so I wanted to highlight it and respond.
Fix issues while they are down - absolutely necessary. They need to do the reverse of the past and uncover anything that may have been hidden, and fix it ASAP.
Good for consumers - yes. Prices are down. Even though incentives are not as big as the D3, they're getting close. More competition and a more even playing field (no more consumers assuming Toyota quality is higher).
I'm not convinced they'll bounce back that far or that quickly. What made Toyota great was low volume, high quality. They sell too much volume now to return to past quality levels. I don't think they're willing to shrink the company as much as they would need to.
Agree on the price premium for imports fading away and on the reliability getting close, especially Ford's.
Well written post. :shades:
future models should be safe and good value
They're under the microscope so they will have to be safe.
The value comes from the discounts given the assumption that Toyota=Reliable will no longer exist. CR acted first, consumer perception is next.
The only way Toyota can turn things around is to do a complete about face and return to their roots, meaning that value, safety, and customer commitment will be the main priority, and when this is transparently reflected in the way they do business they will eventually regain their previous reputation.
I think that is the best written paragraph from this entire thread.
Read it again, folks.
Now, interestingly, I don't think they will do an about face, because the company has grown and wants to keep its sales volume.
I doubt they will (or could, even) go back to the old system of inspecting quality on every single car they produce. It would take too long and cost too much.
I took a few days off and came back and read all the posts, those were the 2 that stood out to me. :shades:
I remember in college when some would rightfully criticize the quality of on-campus dining/food. There would always seem to be one that would say something like, yeah, but they do pretty good considering how many they feed everyday. But then you could point out Buffet style restaurants like Soup Plantation or Fresh Choice, and that they easily serve over a thousand everyday, and have a much higher standard of quality.
Yes, it would cost a bit more, but it's time that companies value quality over cheapness. The goal shouldn't be the lowest price but the highest quality. Unfortunately, I think too many Americans fail to do the research to buy quality, and prefer instead to buy the "cheapest" out there.
When you manufacture cars at several different locations and the production run is at full tilt, the pace makes it much harder to have quality controls at each step.
Example:
Car A is produced on one assembly line, one shift, 9 to 5.
Car B is produced on 3 different assembly lines on 3 different continents where 3 different languages are spoken. Each line shared with 7 different models. 3 shifts have the factories running 24 hours a day, continuously.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy to do quality control on Car A. Especially with the production line going idle for 16 hours (plenty of time to address quality control and supplier issues, too).
Car B is a different story. To fix an issue or change something in production requires an interruption of the line, and you may be paying workers time and a half to sit still.
Car B is also being inspected by someone who is less specialized, and also has to perform inspections on the other models produced on the same line.
Running at full throttle and making several models makes quality control much more challenging.
Yet another issue - let's say you find a flaw quickly - within 3 days. There would be 3 times more of Car B to recall vs. Car A.
I'm not impressed if a manufacturer can produce 100 flaw-free cars.
I'm impressed when a manufacturer can produce 100,000 of them.
I actually agree with you on the "cheapest" theory, price is far too important for a lot of buyers.
Wow, must be a full moon.
In 1990 they were launching the Lexus brand, so there was a HUGE investment in PR/image/marketing.
I remember Lexus had one early recall and the owner lived in the middle of nowhere. They flew out in a helicopter to fix that one car, and then proceeded to flaunt that to the media.
I'm sure they spent more talking about it then actually fixing the problem, but it certainly helped form the impression of quality/reliability in Lexus cars. The impression that of no cost being spared to fix a Lexus.
Far cry from burying issues as per recently.
Having said that, show me an automaker that doesn't drag its feet like that? We had a whole thread on that topic - Brand Problems Swept Under the Rug, something like that.
By the way, thank you for buying at least 2 Toyota products. Please keep doing your share in keeping the stock price up.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Your welcome, they peaked right about the time I bought my 07 Sequoia and have gone downhill since. If you bought when they hit $45 back in 2003 you may weather the coming storm.
Even in your chart it went from $70 in 2005 to $80 now.
Automotive stocks in general have sucked, let's face it, but a long-term Toyota investor probably beat the automotive average by a wide margin. Is there a Dow Jones Automotive index or something?
I don't think automotive is a good investment. I plan to sell my Ford stock very soon. Or at least half to hedge my bet. Hoping for Toyota to make a fast turnaround is not based on anything sound. They will be badgered for at least another year. If they don't have any horrific UA crashes or spare tires falling off their Sienna's they could get back to normal. And Corolla steering problems.
Please site you SUA stories in California. You can google and not find any.
I sited 2 San Diego incidents. You only disputed one. So you agree the incident that killed CHP family is true, right? This one is enough to prove that your statement of no incidents in Southern California is wrong.
In addition, who proved Sikes to be fake? Toyota? It's like an accused rapist proved the victim girl to be fake. Go figure...
Camry exploded
Police's preliminary investigations found:
1) No smell of explosive; so it was not caused by any bomb or explosive
2) There's a lot of motor oil on the floor; so the cause is related to the oil system
3) The parts under the driver's seat are all gone; so the explosion is originated from some where close to it.
The police's preliminary conclusion was the oil pump exploded.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=- 1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.wenxuecity.com%2Fmessages%2F201004%2Fnews-gb2312-1064672.h- tml&sl=zh-CN&tl=en
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
link title
And Saturn Vues
link title
as well as roofs from Corvettes...
link title
I worry more about a retread blowout on a tractor trailer truck than a spare wheel from a Sienna.
Remember GM is the fallen company; toyota-lexus has always been the perfect company and the biggest in the world (for a minute).
I note GM sold more cars in March than toyota-lexus.
The merits of toyota-lexus should stand on their own? :lemon: Why try to put down an already fallen auto company to make your preferred seem better?
I don't believe people new to Edmunds come to a toyota-lexus discussion to read about GM.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When the defense of Toyota Lexus is failing, it is best to deflect to other auto makers.
I agree that new posters come to this site wanting information on what to expect if their ToyLex were to experience SUA, Loss of Brakes, Steering that wanders, ESC that does not work, spare tires that fall off, frames that rust prematurely or engines that just explode blowing legs off.
Toyota has their work cut out for them to allay fears buying their vehicles.
On a positive note. I believe that CEO Toyoda would like to fix what his predecessor Watanabe screwed up.
Manifolds and/or oil pumps don't just "randomly explode" I don't care WHO made the car.
Puh-Leeeze. This is getting ridiculous now.
How many do you want?
Yet another driver Mr. Bulent Ezal also from California was thrown in his back seat when his car drove him off a 100 foot cliff which killed his wife but he survived the crash. Ezal heard his wife’s screams before her death as his car drove him off a cliff to which Toyota’s response was he had his foot on the gas petal. Now what driver would put his foot on the gas petal near a cliff in California to cause the vehicle to drive him and his wife to their deaths?
Of course Toyota used their standard response.
http://www.politicolnews.com/toyota-runaway-vehicles/
Only in the fanboy minds. This is another one that Toyota would just like to go away. As long as people bring it up it will be discussed. Here is the latest from the Feds on the Sikes runaway Prius.
Tuesday, April 20, 2010
WASHINGTON — The federal government said Monday it cannot explain a reported incident of sudden, high-speed acceleration in a Toyota Prius on a San Diego, Calif., freeway last week and acknowledged it may not be able to solve the mystery of what happened to the hybrid.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said its engineers continue to investigate and are reviewing data from the Prius owned by James Sikes to try to understand what happened with his hybrid. But so far, NHTSA says it has not been able to find anything to explain the incident that Sikes reported.
“We would caution people that our work continues and that we may never know exactly what happened with this car,“ NHTSA said in a statement.
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/business/companies/article/government_says_it_- cannot_explain_runaway_toyota/330519/
Generally, though, the whole industry is a poor invement. Toyota at $70 is still not a "buy" in my book. At $20 it would be. $5 like Ford? Absolutely.
You are openly asking us to apply a double-standard.
Toyota was never and never will be perfect. There is no such thing.
I don't believe people new to Edmunds come to a toyota-lexus discussion to read about GM
How they compare to the biggest competitors is 100% relevant. Not to mention a lot of the people bashing Toyota are domestic fan boys, and turn-about is fair play.
People are making a big deal about 54 deaths related to UA, that's fair, but so it reminding those same folks about the 1,600 deaths from side-saddle gas tanks that are still not addressed to this day.
From your story, and testing on Sikes' car after the "event"
"“Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down,“ the memo read.
According to the memo, a Toyota official who was at the two-day inspection last week in suburban San Diego explained that an electric motor would “completely seize” if a system to shut off the gas when the brake is pressed fails, and there was no evidence to support that happened.
“In this case, knowing that we are able to push the car around the shop, it does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time,“ according to the memo.
Toyota has recalled millions of cars because of floor mats that can snag gas pedals or accelerators that can sometimes stick. Sikes’ car was covered by the floor mat recall but not the one for sticky accelerators. He later told reporters that he tried to pull on the gas pedal during his harrowing ride, but it didn’t “move at all.“
The Prius is powered by two electric motor-generators and a small gasoline engine, all connected by transmission gears. A computer, which Toyota calls the “hybrid control computer” determines what combination of motors is needed and which would be most efficient.
Craig Hoff, a professor of mechanical engineering at Kettering University in Flint, Mich., said that for the Prius to accelerate out of control, at least two systems would have to fail simultaneously. They are the sensor signal that tracks the brake and gas pedal positions when the driver presses on them and the hybrid control computers.
“The chance of them both going wrong, plus the fact that the signal is bad, it just seems very, very, very remote,“ Hoff said. “Could it happen? Statistically, yes. But it just doesn’t seem very likely.“"
And Sikes saying "he reached down and tried to pull up the "stuck" accelerator was a flat out lie. He was on the phone with one hand and driving with the other, not leaving a hand available to "reach down" WITH.
CHP reports both pedals in their "normal positions" after they stopped him. What, the "stuck" accelerator just magically unstuck itself when he turned the car off? What. A. Loser.
I've read a TON of Sikes info online, and his story has more holes than a Catalina Island-sized hunk of Swiss cheese.
You add in his personal character flaws and his financial difficulties, and this was so obviously faked it's not even funny. He's lucky he did not hurt anyone else.
I bought Ford "F" at $1.76, it went down to $1.45 when GM and C were in bankruptcy. Ford made some corrections and moves that brought them back to profitability.
Toyota has been a high priced stock for a long time. Those that bought in the 1980s it was a good investment. I don't see the potential to go much above where it is now. When it hit $135 it was riding the housing bubble like so many other stocks with no real good foundation. I would not expect it to get down to $20. Maybe $40.