Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    No, not in the Sikes Case. It was faked.

    In some of the cases I'm certain it was electronic. He was chirping about the pedal being stuck down - that would have been mechanical.

    Liar, Liar, his pants were and are more on fire than his brakes EVER were.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >1,600 deaths from side-saddle gas tanks

    I just noticed your estimate of 1600 deaths from gas tanks. Are you expecting us to believe that those people wouldn't have died from the severity of accident in a truck without side airbags and other safety accoutraments but it's only because of the presence of gas tanks there by which they had to die? They wouldn't have died if the gas tanks were in other configurations? That's a stretch. :)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I should have bought a few shares when Ford was down that low. Not sure why I didn't.

    Inertia. :D

    My loss.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm using the Center for Auto Safety as a source, which by the way is the same source used against Toyota multiple times in this thread.

    CAS were the ones saying NHTSA was too soft/incompetent.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Did I say 1,600?

    Sorry about that. It was 1,800:

    http://www.autosafety.org/history-gm-side-saddle-gas-tank-defect

    over 1,800 people were killed in fire crashes involving these trucks from 1973 through 2000
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    I smell (and am calling) a serious ton of B.S. on this one.

    Are you referring to the news or the police investigation? You are worse than Toyota. Toyota at least sent an "expert" team to San Diego and did some test before calling Sikes a fake. You can just declare it a BS in front of your computer about something happened on the other side of the world. This is a worse denial than Toyota. They should hire you to be their leader... :)
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    “I'm often wrong, but never in doubt.”
    An Ivy Baker Priest quote, and one of my favorites. :)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    C'Mon, I'm just using logic. When's the last time you heard of a fuel pump or manifold "randomly exploding" in ANY modern-era car, Toyota or not?

    You think there is something specific to a new model Camry that Toyota did "wrong" that can cause it blow up?

    That's ludicrous.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I just looked out the window. Several Toyotas driving by. All of them are exploding. Ka-BOOM!

    Wait, there's one that hasn't....

    image

    Nope, it spontaneously exploded as well.

    :D
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    LOL. Te He He He... :shades:

    Seriously, next we'll be seeing stories about how Toyotas are stealing iPads.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    The only thing that exploded on a car that I've ever seen is the rear end on a new Camaro. Great for a smoke show. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The exploding car issue is funny when we remember the 1,800 deaths mentioned recently in GM pickups (yet noone here is furious about that).

    Why is Toyota being crucified while everyone gives GM a free pass?

    GM isn't even doing anything about it.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    The media is hyping the story that GM is ready to pay back their loan. What they don't mention is that GM got about $50 Billion dollars, of which about $6 Billion was considered a loan. The $6 Billion is what is being paid back. They get to keep the other $44 Billion !!

    Give me $50 Billion and I will gladly pay back $6 Billion the next day.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited April 2010
    I did a number of complains counts (search) on the Auto Safety website Auto Safety above and find the interesting results:

    For all years and all models, Toyota 959, Chevy 1223, Ford 2145 complains. This does indicated Toyota was better over the years.

    But for the past 5 years (2006 to 2010), Toyota 105, Chevy 51, Ford 66;

    And for the 2010 model year, Toyota 11, Chevy 0, Ford 0.

    These data clearly show a trend: Toyota is getting worse, and it's already worse than Chevy and Ford in the past 5 years and much worse now.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    I noticed something that was evident but not addressed by the congressman or toyota experts or nhtsa. Why can't they explain how a car with brake overide have front and rear brakes that were damaged by heat? That was verified by the CHP officer who smelled the burning brakes? Or is it that the toyota vehicles all exhibit burnt brakes as a norm?

    Where's the BS in that one?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The CHP "smelling burned brakes" was not "verified" in any way, except that he stated that in the report. Is he a known expert on the smell of "burning brakes?"

    The brake inspection showed no unusual wear:

    SAN FRANCISCO — Federal and company investigators probing a dramatic high-speed incident on a California freeway involving a Toyota Prius didn't find as much wear as they expected on its brakes, the Wall Street Journal reported on Saturday.

    James Sikes, 61, said afterward that he hit the brakes hard and kept the pedal down. His car reached 94 mph (151 kph) before a Highway Patrol officer helped him bring it to a stop on Interstate 8 near San Diego Monday.

    The Journal said three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name, said Sikes' brakes didn't show wear consistent with having been applied at full force at high speeds for a long period. Instead, they may have been applied intermittently, the newspaper said.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,796
    the footnotes provide some clarification. basically, there is a difference between 'involved' and 'cause'.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The brake inspection showed no unusual wear

    Spent means worn out to me. Media statements like "inconsistent with his story", is pure SPIN.

    The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads
    were spent.

    "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.


    I just posted the NHTSA report. They did not find any indication of fraud. It is all wishful thinking by the Toyota Faithful.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited April 2010
    I find it interesting that people keep an old truck known to be dangerous in a crash for as long as 26 before a crash occurs. Look who ran the NHTSA and Congress when GM was let slide? Maybe that same party in power now, don't want to have the same thing happen with Toyota and SUA.

    26 years later we could see 1800 dead from SUA in Toyota vehicles.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    LIKE I SAID BEFORE, GARY.

    Just having "spent" or "worn down pads" does not PROVE that it happened in this fake event. At all.

    I had worn down pads around 50K on my TCH. It happens under NORMAL use. His worn out pads has NOTHING to do, per se, with his faked acceleration event.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Again, Gary, why are you choosing to believe the Sikes story? In the light of all the evidence of the fake?

    Google "Sikes Toyota fake" or "Sikes Toyota hoax" or "Sikes toyota scam" and read some of the stories.

    It's so obviously a fake I can't believe a smart guy like you really believes it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't believe or disbelieve his story. If you trace back all those theories they come from the Faithful Toyota fans, hoping that it is a hoax. The CHP, Paramedics & Border Patrolman involved do not say it is a hoax. The NHTSA has not drawn that conclusion. All the hoax rhetoric is based on his dicey background. Toyota has waffled twice on their findings. First it was 250 alternating brake, accelerator applications. Then it was 255 brake applications with WOT. I think Toyota knows they have electronic gremlins and are maintaining their secrecy. You know they did that with the stalling Prius in 2004. Why do you suppose they are anymore honest today? If any entity is a Big Fat Liar in the Sikes case it is Toyota. Sikes will be paid to not testify in any of the UA cases. If Sikes fooled all the above he would not have any trouble fooling a panel of jurers. Provided they were not Fanboys.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, they also come from the fact that the Prius has a KNOWN FUNCTIONING brake override system. You press the gas and brake at the same time and the engine WILL shut down.

    The system works on Sikes car. They tested it.

    Jalopnik is not a Fanboy site, and one of their editors correctly diagnosed Sikes as a hoax. Many others who don't have a vested interest in Toyota have declared it a hoax. It's not hard to see if your mind is open.

    The same media who is attacking Toyota are not taking their side on the Sikes story, are they? Are they having cake and eating it too?

    Sikes is a liar, liar, brakes not on fire.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited April 2010
    Good story that details the obvious "holes" in his hoax:

    In fact, almost none of this was true.

    Now here's the potential smoking gun: Sikes told the reporters that "I was reaching down and trying to pull up on the gas pedal. It didn't move at all; it was stationary." That's awfully daring for somebody who insisted he didn't even want to take a hand off his steering wheel, notwithstanding that he did so to hold his phone.

    I tried to imitate Sikes' alleged effort in a 2008 Prius. From the front bottom of the steering wheel to the front bottom of the accelerator in up position it's 28.5 inches; while fully deployed it's 2.5 inches farther away. I have average-length arms (33-inch shirt sleeve) and no gut. But even though the steering wheel was as flush to the dashboard as it goes, it prevented me from all but touching the accelerator in the up position.

    To reach behind a deployed accelerator and get any kind of a grip you'd have to add at least three more inches. In my case, it required squashing my face against the radio and completely removing my eyes from the road. Only the tallest men could physically do what Sikes claimed he did and no press accounts refer his being exceptionally tall. But to settle this issue (albeit not the others), Sikes would simply have to sit in his Prius and show he could reach behind the pedal while it was fully depressed. Why has nobody asked him to do so? Moreover, even for an orangutan it would be an incredibly awkward move for somebody afraid to pop a car into neutral or hit the ignition button.


    It is not possible for Sikes to have touched the accelerator if it was really "stuck to the floor" because his arms are not long enough. Liar, Liar.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll give you credit - you are consistent in your criticism of automakers. You complain a lot, sure, but you don't let anyone off the hook (not Toyota, not GM, not even NHTSA).

    explorerx4 wrote "there is a difference between 'involved' and 'cause'" in reference to the 1,800 deaths with side-saddle gas tanks.

    If a gas tank catches fire it's hard to imagine that wouldn't be a major (even primary) factor in any resulting deaths.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2010
    even for an orangutan it would be an incredibly awkward move

    Sikes just came up with a sequel to his hit movie:

    Unintended Insemination

    This one involves primates, and is called:

    Hot Climate Primates

    :D

    Given Gary's healthy skepticism I'm surprised he doesn't have more doubts about Sikes' story.

    He can't try neutral despite being told at least 3 times, says it will "flip the car"? But then he's able to "pull up on the gas pedal"? Then proceeds to hire a lawyer since he's 100% certain he will not sue.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Then proceeds to hire a lawyer since he's 100% certain he will not sue.

    Given his financial position I highly doubt he could hire a monkey much less an attorney.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think Sikes hired an attorney. I believe the attorney offered his services for free. And in return Sikes could be a witness to SUA in the Saylor lawsuit. My guess is Sikes could be paid as a witness to tell about his own SUA event. Unless Toyota makes him a better offer. My bet is Toyota buys his silence, as they have done so many times over the years.

    Nothing has been heard from Sikes since the incident. "Toyota and the Fanboys" have done all the talking. So many of the auto industry media types have written articles that are so full of holes it is hilarious. And even more hilarious are those that believe the hype and spin.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I think that when Sikes realized that he had been caught, he hired the attorney as defense counsel.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What's full of holes is Sikes' story.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I guess we just wait and see. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If his story has holes in it and he becomes a witness, Toyota lawyers will get the chance to expose those holes for the world to see. You think Toyota will take the chance?
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    If the Saylor case depends on Sikes as a witness they are in huge trouble.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Perhaps.

    Toyota is far from innocent in the bigger picture, but dragging a case like Sikes through the courts could help them. It's one instance where I think they could prove it was not their fault.

    Same way GM getting Dateline to apologize publicly helped them. All Dateline did was a dramatic reenactment. But it allowed GM to claim victory and they ran with it.

    1,800 deaths and no apology or fix.

    A lot of it is circumstancial, and Sikes was not hurt. At best the case would be dismissed, I don't see how Toyota could lose a case against Sikes, and what would there be to lose given nothing was lost besides brake pads?

    If Sikes were ever a witness he'd have zero credibility, so I don't see the point in that.

    Again - Sikes' perpetrating a hoax does NOT make Toyota innocent, they both lied.

    Let's wait and see - there is physical evidence (the Prius, the brake pads, etc). Hopefully whoever investigates is neutral and investigates throroughly. A key statement is the part about the brake wear being "consistent" with gradual wear, well, let's see a CSI-style investigation and see if that's really true.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If Sikes were ever a witness he'd have zero credibility, so I don't see the point in that.

    First off, I have never thought that Sikes had a case of his own that would hold up in court. No wreck or injuries. The Prius was his only vehicle supposedly. It has been tied up with testing. So did he get another vehicle from Toyota? What has happened to him? Not a word. Toyota would be better off if Sikes was on TV blasting his story on a regular basis. It would give Toyota some ammunition. As it is they have little that could be used against him.

    As a witness in the Saylor case, I would say all that would be asked of him is to describe his event. At that point all the Toyota lawyers could question him on is that event. No bankruptcy, no porno site, nothing but what he is a witness to could be cross examined. He has had plenty of time to tune his story.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    So you are suggesting that he perjure himself? I think he is already in enough hot water !

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota would be better off if Sikes was on TV blasting his story on a regular basis. It would give Toyota some ammunition.

    I agree, but I think if he were to testify in the Saylor case, the same would apply.

    For me, in terms of PR and perception, it's simple:

    Sikes hoax = Dateline dramatization

    Toyota would benefit from having him in the media (now, later, any time) because he's easy to discredit. They could use a Win like GM had with Dateline.

    It also takes attention away from other, more legitimate cases.

    all that would be asked of him is to describe his event

    That's true, but he's far from an expert witness and the credibility would be a major factor. Bottom line is does the jury believe the porn-peddling scam artist? All that stuff is fair game if he testifies.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited April 2010
    In an AP poll released today, 38% people think the US cars the best; comparing to 33% in favor of Asian cars and 15% for European.

    For individual brands, 18% think Ford is the best; another 18% for GM. 15% favors Toyota.

    Here's the link: AP poll: US tops Japan
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It looks like Ford took the most from Toyota by that poll. It is also reflected in the Stock prices. Ford continues to rise and Toyota continues a downward slide.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    My guess is Sikes could be paid as a witness to tell about his own SUA event

    If the Saylor lawyers call Sikes to the stand they are dumber than rocks. That's an instant loss of any lawsuit against anybody at this point.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    That poll only surveyed 1000 people, a very small crossection of the population... ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >surveyed 1000 people, a very small crossection of the population...

    The poll results (actually two poll's results) didn't agree with your opinion, therefore the poll is bad? :sick:

    As stated in the article, unlike Consumer Report's department store type surveys, the level of certainty is 4.2% and the poll was conducted by telephone. Clearly the poll was made of a random sample. :P Sampling 1200 then 1500 lowers the variation to 3 or 2%. But the increased cost often isn't worth the difference in level of certainty.

    What's most meaningful is the change in results from the December poll to the March poll. The toyota-lexus problems and coverups are having an effect. Americans are watching and listening.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is a pretty standard number for a poll. How many did they poll in 2006? If it was about the same number it would mean those figures are also questionable. I would say the poll pretty much parallels current sales figures. Which means people are directing their car dollars as reflected in the poll.

    GM YTD is up 16.8%
    Ford YTD is up 37.7%
    Toyota YTD is up 7.2%

    http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Polls mean very little. There is a poll on Fox News currently with over 50,000 votes that concludes Asian cars are better than American. It is close 40% to 39%. Some voters weren't sure.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >Polls mean very little

    Aaaaaah. Yes. I understand now. When polls were saying foreign brands were wunderbar, those polls are good; US brands are good, polls bad. We all understand.
    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >because apparently you can't read. The poll I mentioned said Asian cars were better.

    I'll overlook the rudeness and respond: that's exactly what I said in that when the polls say Asians are better that's good. We can't have people thinking that US cars have anything to offer, can we?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Again, where did I say Asian cars being better was a good thing?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Im, you're antagonizing gets tiring buddy.

    The proof that this poll means jack squat, we only need to look back on last months performance numbers. 40% increase in Toyota sales whilst having lower incentives than the D-3 and not padding sales with heavy doses of fleet sales (up 67% at Government Motors and up 41% at FMC). But I'm guessing you conveniently overlooked those numbers.

    1000 people out of 305 million US residents is about as useful as asking 1000 people whether or not they'd rather have paper or plastic at the grocery store.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I know you like to use the March numbers. I wonder if you will be happy with the April sales for Toyota? It is possible the increase for GM & Ford fleet sales is the rental agencies are steering clear of Toyota cars. Year to Date & Market Share are still the important figures to look at. Toyota has lost sales to Ford and GM.

    I know it is hard to accept for those that hate GM.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    If you all exactly looked closely at the specific tables of information from that poll you would see that there was not exactly that much of an increase from the American automaker preference in Dec 06 and then again last month when they asked again.

    If you look at CAR3a table you'll see that the ACTUAL car makers people reported being in their garage at that time actually went down for domestic automakers (60% down to 56%) between Dec 06 and Mar 10 while foreign automakers remained the same (37%). Ford had no increase or decrease between 2006 and 2010, while GM had a drop of 7 from 2006 to 2010, while Chrysler had a drop of 4 from 2006 to 2010. This is the most telling graph in the poll since it counts THE ACTUAL vehicles people had in their garages when polled! What I don't understand is, AP used the one poll that went by COUNTRY, not by automakers, to say that people perfer cars from the US over Asia, yet this table of actual automakers in the garage of consumers would prove otherwise? Nothing change from 2006 to 2010 except the fact that their was a total drop in domestic automakers in people's garage from 2006 to 2010 while foreign automakers had no change.

    In table CAR9, between Dec 06 and Mar 10 the people who would prefer to buy American cars rose 1 point (WOW) from 39 to 40, while foreign makers dropped a few points. Though it interesting that a good majority answered that it didn't matter (45) which automakers they had so those people could have put foreign past domestic possibly, or it could have work the other way. Even if you discount the large number of it doesn't matter folks, saying that American car preference rose by 1 lousy point in almost 4 years is really insignificant. If it rose by maybe 6-8 pts I might be more willing to say that means something but I don't think so with just a 1 point change.

    Then in table CAR14, when they asked which car company produces the best quality vehicles, foreign automakers were almost 9 points higher than domestic with GM actually having a drop from 06 to 10 of 3 with Ford being the only one who remained the same from 06 to 10.

    So my whole point is, there were several parts of the poll that showed foreign automakers leading the domestics in certain areas or that there was no change from 2006 of foreign automakers in people's garage. AP picked and choose the specific information they wanted to post that showed that domestic automakers had passed foreign automakers but if you actually take the time to look at all the tables you'll see that in actuality, that is not the case. It did show that their was a drop across all poll questions in some confidence in foreign automakers from 2006 to 2010, which is understandable considering the events of Toyota in the last few months. I find it interesting that they chose to do this poll right in the middle of all this pomp and circumstance right now, with the media blasting Toyota every other day and is fresh in people's mind. They had to know, that the unusual events with Toyota of the last several months would bias the normal avg joe away from saying that foreign makes were better. I think the results would have been substantially different had it been repolled in Jan 2009 or June 2009 when there was a much different situation in this country in the automotive industry ;)

    http://www.ap-gfkpoll.com/pdf/AP-GfK%20Poll%20March%202010%20CAR%20Topline.pdf
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