Toyota on the mend?

obyone · July 2010

That's not the way I recall it - what I heard was that Gilbert had a Toyota available to him so he played with the part. When he was able to make the part fail, he contacted Toyota. They ignored him.

I remember it the same way. Toyota did not acknowledge nor want anything to do with his research. He originally used his own Tundra for the experiment.

sharonkl · July 2010

Dr Gilbert would more than likely be more honest than the multi million dollar paid Exponent. And his research actually did/was started all on his own out of curiosity. He had recently bought a Toyota truck so had vested personal interest in the Toyota SUA investigation..Only when he actually started to find something did he reach out. Auto electronics is one of his professional areas of expertise, and these professors do this all the time out of their own curiosity. Curiosity is what makes these researchers/professors tick. Universities want these personality types on their faculty. Southern University of Illinois auto technology is #1 in the nation, and lots of good is going on there to be #1. These professors would more than likely be inclined to be proactive in their field. Can't be a #1 school with complacent professors. UC Berkeley here is another example of a top ranked national university with proactive professors. Both of my children were quite lucky to go to UC Berkeley, and thus have the utmost respect from personal experience and the quality education they got. Curiosity and the professor's inqusitive drive is how university research projects many times get started. Universities want these professors to do research. And these professors do not receive a huge salary when compared to private industry pay. These professors want to be employed by universities because they love the teaching and the possible research they can do.

My son is another good example that possesses this curiosity drive - he is medical physician but doesn't work as a doctor. His hobby in auto computer design & programming post factory improved engine performance suddenly surprisingly became too successful private business to not do, and practicing as doctor had to be put on back burner. If someday his business folds, then he will work as a doctor. Funny family story after 17 long years of college.

RE: Dr Gilbert and how He got with Sean Kane.
Dr Gilbert first called Toyota to report what he found out and see if they wanted to pursue. Also called NHTSA. Got no interest response from either, and then called Sean Kane. Dr Gilbert got only small amount of money and the needed university auto lab equipment to complete research from backers of Sean Kane of Safety Research & Strategies. $4000 of needed equipment for the university auto lab which is now part of university auto lab, and $150 per hour was just peanut pay. Exponent has received in the millions so far with just this SUA project from Toyota. And received documents reveals Exponent receives millions from Toyota every year per oversight committee.

Could your statement also make Toyota's attorneys sleezy also? Does work both ways as it seems and I see it. Exponents is a highly paid corporate defense/litigation firm hired by attorneys. Smile - just trying to be objecive here. And everyone can form own opinion.

Exponent''s Work Protection
Toyota's attorneys are the ones who hired Exponent so Exponent's document information is protected under the attorney client privilege to prevent thorough investigation/possible legal challenge of their work. If Toyota was going to be totally honest and above board these documents would be readily available for possible expert scrutiny. Exponents work remains highly protected in law suits when a settlement is reached due to confidential agreements signed. And is not just for work for Toyota.

Oversight Committee Upset Exponent
Oversight committee is quite upset at Exponent and them being uncooperative. Also appears Oversight Committee upset at altered documents sent to Toyota that committtee received from Exponent. Seems committee requested original Toyota sent documents and was indicated in the request letter sent out. Only got altered documents and not the originals.

Exponent Reputation
Exponent's past history and resulting work with tobacco companies, PGE regarding California chromium pollution, asbestos exposure, etc. reveal who they are and what they do. PGE and chromium was the biggest finally substantially proven sufficiently enough after eight some years of proven PGE, Exponent, Chem Risk blatant shenanigans. Courts and state of California agreed.

Gilbert's Research
Retaliation from Toyota was a strong possibility. When University approved of this research project administrators had to be aware/expect what finally occurred. Administrators had to feel research project study proposal met their university governing/guideline standards and did approve. Universities are generally respected for their more nonbiased research when compared to outside private research enities. Less corporate money pressured biased research and most of time only approve research that has possibility of success & will be conducted without a bias basis. Biased research is/has been a big problem to fight in all area types of research.

T
ABC News
The ABC news report and those problems was to be expected. That inserted segment should not have been done. But all of the TV aired segment actually had the Avalon moving/ready to move except for that quick flash shot. The criticized inserted segment was only a very brief and quick shot showing the racing tachometer. Only that brief quick shot was from a parked Avalon. Most people I talked to were only listening to the main points presented in that televised news release. Not one person I talked with paid any attention to that inserted flashed shot. But does seem like some did not like it at all. And thus was a bad editing decision to insert this segment when this flashing short shot was not actually needed. Brian Ross was reporting very heavily on this investigation at that time so ABC was right on top of news story. Then Toyota sent ABC news letter threatening to sue ABC. Must give ABC credit as they did apologize. Did not back off story content, but that would be expected.

Dr Gilbert consenting to do ABC interview
As far as Dr Gilbert consenting to do this TV program - most researches would consent to this publicity if approved of by their employer. University would see it as good school publicity exposure if Dr Gilbert's work And it was approved. Was it right or wrong? Guess everyone can form their own opinion What many missed during that interview is that Dr Gilbert stated something needed to be done and felt it was dangerous, but still not sure where all his research would lead or if it would connect to SUA. That part seemed to be played down by ABC. Guess many overlooked and did not get this part. I do find that NASA engineer scientists testified and presented documents reconfirming this same position the end of June at the Academy of Science meeting. Something needs to change and be done.

It's all about Toyota at present, but Toyota is one in hot seat. If another auto manufacturer had the model that California CHP officer and family were killed in and ha

sharonkl · July 2010

I am sorry you feel that way. I am only reporting what I read about the Academy of Sciences Meeting. I wish I could be more detailed but can't. Reports seen are brief, and no actual online documents exist that I can find on the site. Earlier I had posted links for so everyone could review this site. Please let me know if you can find and would shae with us. I would love to read actual documents

Please know I am not attempting to cloud the issue. I can only fairly use "appears" and "have to guess" because actual documents still not found online. It would be incorrect to make a positive statement.

I am sorry you feel I was "Stoking the Fire." Please I have repeatedly said I do not know where all of this will lead. Your opinion is as important as those who feel SUA is real. We all have opinions. Mine is still pending.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Good luck to you.

busiris · July 2010

OK so other than stating the obvious....what's YOUR point?

Simply put, if one wants to be seen as "researching" an issue, then they should keep the facts separate from the opinions.

If a commission/researcher makes a comment, then show the exact quote. If you wish to add your interpretation as to what they meant, that's fine. Giving your interpretation of a quote without sourcing it is usually done by one wishing to influence the opinion of the reader. The issue of UA already has far too much unsubstantiated innuendo and rumor associated with it, up to the point where virtually everyone has an opinion, but at the same time, knows little of the facts.

I doubt very much you would like to have someone putting words in YOUR mouth.

Barking out ambiguities is a poor excuse for claiming to show the "facts".

I'm not attempting to shun anyone's opinion or slam anyone's ideas or opinions. Its an opinion forum, after all. Its just that I personally object to any comments that are clearly opinionated, yet being put forth as fact.

Don't we get enough of that type of behavior from politicians?

Of all the current posters on this particular thread, how many do you think have actually read the official police report on the Saylor's case?

kenym · July 2010

I wish I could be more detailed but can't.

Now that's funny :P

sharonkl · July 2010

Yes, Toyota got caught because they manufactered that particular model that killed the California CHP officer and family and they also had high SUA complaints. To be fair, any other manufacturer could have been the one in the "hot seat" if they also had higher SUA complaints. Public sympathy and reaction to this tragic event was very high, and news media jumped on the story with multiple investigative reporters out there working very hard. Why this particular event when other people had been killed too - really not sure. "The Dirty Laundry List" of Toyota seemed to exaccerbate news stories more. Past NHTSA oversight and actions brought present NHTSA Administration under investigation too. Etc, etc.

Well, all has quieted down now. Think will have a wait for an outcome on NASA research investigation study. Have no idea how soon. But I will also keep an eye on these meetings and what is occurring.

I am not sure what all GM and UAW did in past. What did UAW and GM do??? Have seen Toyota has come down hard and tough on individuals, news, agencies, etc. towards the end.

See you have discovered who Exponent is too. I would be very skeptical of any released reports they write. Ha, we generally now don't get any access because of their implemented legal protection of their work and many written documents. Just know they are not very honest firm. Corporations/government/political entities/etc. in big time trouble or need of biased based study result to support a certain stance love them. They are one of the best with their excellent well written reports, testimony; even though not true. This is a businesss model that has been perfected with heavy legal protection over the years.

Toyota will survive. How much damage has been done. I am not sure. Will Toyota learn and change their business approaches? Would be nice if they would offer a break override system for my RAV4. Not in recall, so would be happy to purchase.

sharonkl · July 2010

Steve, yes you are correct. He owned a Toyota truck. And he did give testimony he only started out testing on his own because of his own personal interest. Auto electronics is one of his areas of expertise. School is considered #1 in nation so Gilbert is probably fairly good. Noticed he has no engineering degree, but could be self taught and would have access to what is needed. My son is self taught.

After he found something was when he reached out to first
Toyota, then NHTSA and no real response. Then he called Sean Kane and Kane called him back right away. Had just posted a lengthy explanation earlier.

I noticed Dr Gilbert appeared to be a more quiet and unassuming type individual at the hearings..

triplej51 · July 2010

Questioning from one of the committee members to Kane and Gilbert...
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6235684-503544.html

Buyer (seen at left), who disclosed that plants in his district manufacture Toyota vehicles, questioned the motives of Sean Kane, president of Massachusetts-based Safety Research & Strategies Inc., and David Gilbert, an automotive technology professor at Southern Illinois University.

The two provided testimony and documentation at the House Energy & Commerce/Oversight Subcommittee hearing that an electrical malfunction was a cause of unintended acceleration in some Toyota vehicles that led to injuries and fatalities.

Mr. Kane's company produced a 51-page report that alleged more than 2,000 Toyota and Lexus owners have reported sudden acceleration, resulting in 815 crashes, 341 injuries and 19 deaths since 1999. Mr. Gilbert did his own testing and analysis, finding that an electronic design flaw prevented the car's onboard computer from detecting and stopping certain short circuits that can trigger sudden speed surges.

Rep. Buyer asked Mr. Kane whether he was paid by a group of lawyers with pending litigation against Toyota. Mr. Kane admitted that he was paid by lawyers with pending suits against Toyota, but said that he wasn't paid enough to make the trip to Washington as Rep. Buyer pressed him for a yes or no answer. That heated exchange led committee Chairman Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) to intervene.

After settling down, Rep. Buyer asked Mr. Gilbert if he was paid by Mr. Kane for his research into Toyota's alleged sudden unintended acceleration problems. Mr. Gilbert responded that he was paid $1,800 and Mr. Kane added that he was given $4,000 in equipment. When asked about further payments, Mr. Gilbert said he would be paid $150 per hour for any future consulting.

Based on this Gilbert made himself a target. He allowed himself to be used then he allowed ABC News to create it's fantasy scenario. Sorry he can be correctly seen to be the enemy afa Toyota is concerned. He's a hired gun to create a fantasy scenario where a defect might occur if all the planets line up in order and then the sun shuts down.

tbone_rare · July 2010

Toyota has the money. That is a fact. This statement is probably better placed in the forum....Buying American, What does it really mean.....Where is that money? It's certainly not being stored in the Toyota factory in Georgetown, KY. It's in a big old bank in Japan. IMHO, that makes Toyota a Japanese car....not an American car.....no matter where it's built!

triplej51 · July 2010

Sorry this opinion is false. You'd have to be conversant in international finance to understand why it's false.

gagrice · July 2010

Of all the current posters on this particular thread, how many do you think have actually read the official police report on the Saylor's case?

I believe many have. I Have and posted it when it came out.

http://autos.aol.com/gallery/saylor-crash-report/

explorerx4 · July 2010

Toyota's vehicle computer system do trail other manufacturers in their capabilities.
They probably require a physical connection.
I can from my home computer, request a vehicle health report.
Without any physical connection, the vehicle computer is interrogated, and report of the results is sent as an email.
Also, think about OnStar. You can request that your doors be unlocked.
No physical connection required.
Just take it a step further.

sharonkl · July 2010

Thanks for answering busiris. Was curious it it was the Toyota televised event.

I agree with your questions regarding if what Dr Gilbert found will eventually lead to a finding for SUA. I too have questions. Dr Gilbert expressed these same reservations during his testimony. Also stated it was only a beginning. He was shut down after Toyota pressure on the school, so it won't be him doing. Too bad because he could have continued. Seemed he had this personal drive desire that may/could find the problem. This was in his area of teaching expertise. Know he had no engineering degree, but as I posted our host Steve - Gilbert could be self taught. This drive and desire can be what it may/could take. Ha, I am quite familiar with this scenerio.

Yes, everyone generally does have an agenda. And real truth can be difficult to find. News report releases are only a start.

explorerx4 · July 2010

have have an '04 escape and last year we were looking to pass it on to one of the kids.
we ended up buying an '09. you can see that basic design has not changed, because it works, but what has changed is all improvement.
it is now quiet, has a competitive drive train, and state of the art electronics.
the RAV has fresher styling and great drivetrain, but a few, for us, big negatives.
side opening rear hatch, useless 3rd seat, suzuki samurai like outside spare.

sharonkl · July 2010

I have both the CHP report and also have NHTSA report. These were posted a long time ago. There are some new bloggers and I have been gone for few months, so not sure how many indivduals now blogging have seen and read.

sharonkl · July 2010

When I was out looking I too had looked at the Explorer and the Escape. Explorer used too much gas. Escape not big enough for the two large dog kennels

The interior is so quiet when driving these vehicles. No road noise. I was totally impressed. Rode in my son's family new Audi diesel SUV and this vehicle also totally quiet.

Well, I got a RAV4 because of my special desired & needed requirements. Did a give away on the nice feature of a quiet ride. I do have lots of road noise. I don't mind the tire being on the back - and spare tire is totally encased all sides with a hard cover. Love the big under the floor storage area. If I were a tall individual RAV4 is not the vehicle choice. Dash board design negates generous leg room. I am only 5' 4 1/2" so no problem.

I noticed the next year Toyota must have downgraded as spare tire now had only a pliable cloth/plastic pliable cover on the inside with only hard cover on back. I did not care for at all.

Good luck with your Escape.

busiris · July 2010

Toyota's vehicle computer system do trail other manufacturers in their capabilities.
They probably require a physical connection.
I can from my home computer, request a vehicle health report.
Without any physical connection, the vehicle computer is interrogated, and report of the results is sent as an email.
Also, think about OnStar. You can request that your doors be unlocked.
No physical connection required.
Just take it a step further.

Oh, I quite agree that vehicles with options such as OnStar and BMW Assist can most likely be reprogrammed to some extent wirelessly, but as to what level I don't have a clue.

I do know that the 2010 BMW that I have (equipped with BMW Assist) also has the diagnostic connection OBD port, and that is what the service personnel use to access the car's systems.

Whether or not cars move towards wireless connections for these functions remains to be seen. Security issues may delay or completely inhibit their use as a replacement for a direct connection.

http://www.gizmag.com/vehicle-computer-systems-hacks/15156/

busiris · July 2010

Sorry this opinion is false. You'd have to be conversant in international finance to understand why it's false.

You know, I used to try to explain how all this worked to people with the opinion that all the money flowed back to some "big bank vault" in the home country, but I finally gave up.

In every case I was involved in, there seemed to be some sort of mental block that simply would allow them to understand.

Maybe you have had/will have better luck. You'll need it.

explorerx4 · July 2010

ok here is another OnStar example. someone steals your car. it can remotely disabled. this is built in and it's not limited to just the capabilities you read about in the brochure .
to reprogram the engine computer in an M3 takes about 5 minutes with a little cricket.
been there done that. this was 7 years ago and there have been huge advancements in technology since then.

busiris · July 2010

ok here is another OnStar example. someone steals your car. it can remotely disabled. this is built in and it's not limited to just the capabilities you read about in the brochure .
to reprogram the engine computer in an M3 takes about 5 minutes with a little cricket.
been there done that. this was 7 years ago and there have been huge advancements in technology since then.

The question isn't whether or not its possible...To me, that's a given.

The question is whether or not it will be implemented, and to what extent.

I suspect this subject has been discussed widely inside auto manufacturers, and I'm sure the main hurdle in each of these conversations has been how to adequately secure the connection. Its a huge issue.

No manufacturer wants to be associated with allowing anything like the vehicle behavior in Terminator III.

sharonkl · July 2010

explorerx4 · July 2010

the point i am trying bet across is that the lower tech wouldn't have a clue.
how often does microsoft(if you have that type of computer) or your anti virus software push changes onto your machine? they do it and choose to let you know about it.

anythngbutgm · July 2010

My longest amount of time I had with the Escape was 2 years ago when I rented on in SanFran and drove it up to Portland Oregon. I really liked it except the engine was way too coarse for my liking and gas mileage was terrible. Otherwise it was an extremley comfortable highway cruiser for the 9 hour drive.

I'm actually helping a coworker right now trying to find one on the used market to replace her absolute POS Saab. It is a great used car bargain! :shades:

But my favorite in the segment is still the RAV4. My goodness what a fantastic chassis and engine (V6). The 270hp 3.5l is one of the finest 6's on the market based on all the ones I've driven, it is extremely smooth, refined and returns fantastic mileage.

The big letdown happens when you open the door and step inside tho. Here is where the competition like the Escape trio, and especially the CRV absolutely trump it in materials, style, features, comfort and tactility.

tbone_rare · July 2010

Gentlemen.....I agree that I am not "conversant in international finance". At the risk of sounding too much like Forrest Gump....."I'm not a smart man Jennie".....try to enlighten me on this. Perhaps I'm not alone in this opinion. You might help several people understand.

busiris · July 2010

Repost from #9398...

And, you could be correct in your assumption of the line-level techs not seeing "the big picture". However, no manufacturer's service organization is flat. The pyramid may have either a gentle or a steep incline, but they all have a pyramid structure of some sort. The lower level techies could be blind, but those with the higher levels of understanding on the Toyota engine/mechanical structure could easily detect what was happening, and I doubt they would all remain silent... Not to mention the independent shops.

larsb · July 2010

ahem.

Toyota PR Hijinks?

US: Toyota "planted" driver error story: NHTSA

By: Simon Warburton | 15 July 2010

Toyota US at one point held a press conference at which 'independent' consultants dismissed suggestions of faulty electronics

Reports from the US that driver error was the cause of the vast majority of Toyota's accelerator problems have been dismissed by a key government agency as "planted".

Widespread speculation has centred on initial findings from the US Department of Transportation (DOT), of which the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is part, that drivers have been to blame for the unintended acceleration by pressing wrong pedals.

However, the NHTSA, the body responsible for examining the Toyota pedal problems in the US, has firmly rebutted claims the story came from the safety organisation.

"That story was planted by Toyota," an NHTSA spokeswoman in Washington told just-auto. "Toyota is the source - yes we know that for definite.

"It is [the] Toyota PR machine. We knew they were going to put it out."

Toyota Motor Europe (TME) yesterday declined to comment on the reports, but today (15 July) said it had read the articles.

"There have been conversations with Toyota in the US and Japan and people involved in the investigations but it is pretty hard from Brussels to have a view on what was said to whom and at what moment," a TME spokesman in Belgium told just-auto.

"The story quotes a spokesperson so I assume there was some contact between [a newspaper] and Toyota. This seems a bit general but of course driver error could be part of it."

Toyota recalled more than eight million vehicles worldwide as part of its investigations into the acceleration issues.

Toyota in Tokyo could not be reached for comment.

sharonkl · July 2010

Yes, RAV4 has many positives. But has negatives too. Smile - all do.

I totally agree with your commments re: design & quality of interior. RAV4 has great design, interior space, but would love to see Toyota make it more of a luxury type vehicle. Truthfully I find RAV4 interior quality mediocre , but decided I could live with this give away. Compromise, compromise. I do have to compliment Toyota's design for the personal comfort I have when driving on long trips. I have old lumbar multiple herniated disc injury, and walk away with no stiffness even after driving 8 hours. Of course use additional tricks. My personal opinion of the seats - ok for me since I am shorter, but would question comfort for taller individual. Seat base seems to have been shortened. Not great for my son who is 6'2", but I drive auto not him .

Was totally impressed with my son's new Audi Diesl SUV. Great gas mileage for a towing vehicle. Have done no research.

Hyundai Santa Fe is another SUV you might want to investigate for your friend if you are looking at all manufacturers. Friends switched from BMW SUV to this vehicle about 1 1/2 years ago. Fairly nice & roomy inside. Nice body design. Friends said good sales price was a shock to them after always buying BMW's. They have had no problems. They say they get approximately 27 miles per gallon freeway driving. Saw Hyundai is beginning to move into US market more. Just observation and what I hear, but have done no real investigation on this vehicle either

And at that time I was searching I was looking at all SUV's. All in all RAV4 is working good for me and my specific needs. Love 28-29 miles per gallon I get freeway driving. Get range of 23-up on my usual typical driving. Service center costs are good.

But presently have this electrical computer glitch, and I will evaluate how my pursuit to resolve unfolds. Found out my friends have problem too. Still have to investigate if a frequent complaint problem.

anythngbutgm · July 2010

I actually suggested the Sante Fe to her but she said her first car was a Hyundai that she bought with 39k miles on it and it caught fire 3 days after she bought it. Kinda left a dent in the idea for her...

The other option she is looking at is the CRV which she really likes but Hondas typical resale values put it at a slightly higher price than the Escape comparably.

I agree with you regarding the RAV4, good writeup btw. Actually the interior is what really kept me from buying one a few years back. It was the closest I ever came to buying a Toyota product

anythngbutgm · July 2010

"Tesla and Toyota to develop RAV4 EV, hope to launch in 2012"

:shades:

sharonkl · July 2010

Thanks for passing article around. Appreciate seeing articles.

Go back and review the online posted US govenment investigation links I posted yesterday and the day before. Can compare with Toyota's news released stance pitch - SUA is human error. Waxman and Stupak documents indicate what may actually be going on. Seems this verdict is still out. Yesterday also posted letter Oversight Committee sent to Toyota end of June regarding this Washington hired independent engineer/s finding of existing brake overrride system on older Toyota model/s. Documents reveal Toyota failed to provide/tell this info during testimony and at all the extensive committee questioning sessions/interviews.

As I said yesterday too - government documents show Exponent has purported multiple shenanigans unfolding as well. I am not surprised, and expected all along. Just was unsure if lamakers would uncover..

Government document links also reveal what multiple independent Washington hired expert engineers actually feel about Dr Gilbert's research study. These documents indicate respect of his study and is an excellent beginning as Gilbert had always said and had claimed. Was interesting to see that Gerdes from Standford finally admited to Washington Gilbert's study was good. Gerdes is Stanford engineer Toyota had review Gilbert's study.

From Stupak document
"When Dr. Gilbert testified before this subcommittee in February, he explained that he had found a way to induce sudden unintended acceleration in a Toyota vehicle without triggering an error code in the vehicles computer. Committee staff have spoken with several academics who describe Dr. Gilberts experiment as sensible, and a reasonable way to begin to study unintended acceleration. Dr. Christian Gerdes (Ger-Dess), a professor at Stanford University who Toyota asked to review Dr. Gilberts work, told the Committee staff that Dr. Gilberts approach was a legitimate starting point for a more in-depth inquiry into the causes of sudden unintended acceleration."

Well long way to go. But all is not as damage control PR machine claims or as news releases report per government documents Wish it were, but government documents indicate otherwise. And we all wait. Still unfolding. And I just continue trying to get info. I am still in pending mode..

gagrice · July 2010

You have to remember from the get go after the Saylor SUA crash, Toyota has tried to discount any and all reports that did not fit the floormat/throttle pedal fix. Toyota does not want anyone poking around in their flawed ECU. I say flawed because my Toyota surges from idle on a regular basis. If I was not firmly on the brakes it would send me into the car stopped in front of me. I get the same explanation Toyota dealers give everyone. That is the way it is designed. Well it is a P*** Poor design. I have not had any instance of UA while cruising down the highway. There are many reports of those that have. Toyota can spin it anyway they want, and get people to believe them. That does not make it so.

Sadly they have been able to use their money and influence to shut up a lot of those people that may be able to solve the problems in their electronics.

sharonkl · July 2010

Thanks anythngbutgm. RAV4 does work for me personally. Will it be my choice next time? Time will tell what I need and what market has available. Yes, and I do miss having another vehicle available that is more in luxury class.

Whoops about that fire your friend had with Hyundai. That would make me look elsewhere too!! Thanks for this info.

I do like Ford SUV's. And we were lucky to have no issues with either Explorer. Have heard others have. This was vehicle I usually drove. We towed a boat and my husbands ambulance fleet were Fords so Ford SUV was most likely choice for us at that particular time. Have noticed more towing type vehicle choices available now.

sharonkl · July 2010

Thanks garice. As I replied to you I still have these idle surges too when car is parked. And was checked by dealer couple times with same sort of reponse you got. As you may recall I had mentioned last fall I had a few wierd episodes that I could control that occurred. Close call over at Macdonalds drive through when it decided to sudddenly surge more than gas pedal pressure applied. I recovered quickly, but was close to hitting auto in front of me in drive through line. Also had had some engine surging couple of times pulling into shopping center parking spot with foot on brake and pulling into my slanted up driveway. They were quite wierd shocking occurances. Have had no real engine surges while at intersection.

Now has for some unknown reason has been fine for several months. Parked engine idle intermittant surges are still present though. My husbands BMW 750 and my Explorers never did this.

Does anyone else have this occur???

busiris · July 2010

I have experienced that type of behavior in my friend's 2002 Volvo S40 series while driving him to the airport recently.

Evidently, its normal as far as he is concerned. He just told me to keep my foot on the brake whenever I am stopped. So, that's what I did.

fezo · July 2010

Based on my previous Volvo experiences I would appreciate acceleration of any sort...

sharonkl · July 2010

Thanks for replying busiris.

Did you notice any inapprorpiate engine surge response when pedal application was less than engine surge that resulted, or any engine surging when only braking at slow speed?

Yes, I have to watch my vehicle when at light too.

busiris · July 2010

I noticed it while being stopped, just idling at a traffic light. Car ran fine and did not surge (that I could tell, anyway) while driving normally. Of course, I never got much faster than 45 mph....

sharonkl · July 2010

Thanks for clarifying busiris. Was checking. All is quiet now for few months w my auto - I will wait & see.

Sounds like you only had same I presently have at a stop light.

Engine surging now only occurs when auto in park idling. Male neighbor that has Lexus SUV does not have this. He felt was strange, but is not auto expert.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2010

information from gagrice you can see how things could escalate from there.

You have to remember from the get go after the Saylor SUA crash, Toyota has tried to discount any and all reports that did not fit the floormat/throttle pedal fix. Toyota does not want anyone poking around in their flawed ECU. I say flawed because my Toyota surges from idle on a regular basis. If I was not firmly on the brakes it would send me into the car stopped in front of me. I get the same explanation Toyota dealers give everyone. That is the way it is designed. Well it is a P*** Poor design. I have not had any instance of UA while cruising down the highway. There are many reports of those that have. Toyota can spin it anyway they want, and get people to believe them. That does not make it so.

Sadly they have been able to use their money and influence to shut up a lot of those people that may be able to solve the problems in their electronics.

Why would anyone bend over backwards to "protect" a large automotive manufacturer from harm when something in their vehicles is awry? I mean, just because you Toyota hardcores have spent large amounts of change on a Toyota product, that doesn't mean there can't be flaws in that product, does it?

sharonkl-thanks for your reporting. It's almost like having Diane Sawyer from ABC with us here on the forum. When does this NASA report on Toyota SUA come out?

I'm waiting here with baited breath from the vast NE Nevada desert. The Ruby Mountains are fast losing their snow and ice caps it's getting so hot. 96 degrees today here in this mining and gambling oasis.

chuck1 · July 2010

Yea, I have a '05 4Runner and I will be stopped at a light and the motor will surge if the air conditioner needs it to. If you have your foot FIRMLY pressed on the brake it's a non-issue.

Most serious accidents of SUA are from people over 60 years of age. I am my fifties. Not meant as a bash - it's just looks like those are the statistics.

Bringing up the Saylor crash again and again is useless. The guy's character and background not to mention the car's computer makes it a non-issue.

78K on my Toyota and no mechanical issues whatsoever.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2010

anyway?

The guy's character and background not to mention the car's computer makes it a non-issue.

Splane yourself, please. Was Saylor the guy with the faux-staged-accident in the Prius to extort money from Toyota fiasco? If so, character is involved. But the off-duty CHP officer didn't ask for the troubles he had that day on the San Diego freeway. He was only in his 40's, too.

These Toyota issues have been going on for so long that a lot of us need little news updates on the different stories ta keep us in the loop. Deal wid it.

stever · July 2010

I think y'all are confusing Saylor with Sikes.

Everything I've heard about Saylor's reputation has been stellar. He was the CHP officer in the Lexus.

Sikes, on the other hand .... and he was the one in the Prius.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2010

ahhh...host man, thank you sincerely from the mining and gambling mecca of Elko, NV, the first Nevada gambling town in which the idea of having entertainment along with gambling was introduced.

True story, apparently it worked so the gambling barons in Las Vegas took the dice and rolled with it after Elko's example and the rest is history. It's gotta be true, learned that from a new co-worker here at the hospital.

Yeah, no raking Saylor through the mud on here. His story is the one that drew me in ta this thing so that I needed to know more. We shouldn't have to have remedial "mashing on the brakes" training just because Toyota doesn't have total control of their car's electronic control systems. Ouch!

Nor should we have to learn how to put a car out of commission whilst out of control for no good reason going 90 on the freeway.

busiris · July 2010

Nor should we have to learn how to put a car out of commission whilst out of control for no good reason going 90 on the freeway

That has to rank in the top 5 most stupid things ever posted on a forum.

sharonkl · July 2010

Government oversight committee/testimony documents indicate Saylor accident as the incident that seemed to start this Toyota SUA investigation. Multiple exist. Public empathy and outcry, and extenive news reporter investigative coverage followed.

Saylor accident will probably always present multiple debates since he was experienced CHP officer. At present I am only watching and waiting what government does, attempting to get all the info I can.

Presently we are all still waiting if the Toyota's computer is non issue. I have not found any acual NASA scientist complete document information. Saw someone posted site with the National Academy of Scienses speaker topic discussion outline overheads, but no complete actual actual document of what they actually said. Smile - let me know if you have/or have found. Please share if you do.

As for myself I still have lots of questions regarding the integrity and accuracy of any manufacturers EDR. Presently law was passed but implementation not until 2012, and/or have not seen/found any government intensive tests of each manufacturers EDR's and their positives/faults/errors,etc., or the integrity/accuracy/standards/etc. aspects of each manufacturers possible sole controlled EDR site. I personally feel EDR's are excellent to have. Any laws/standards/oversight will not be implemented until 2012 though. Etc.

Chuck, glad to hear you are having no problems. Already posted what's occurring here with my RAV4, and what my experience/feelings are. Just have this electrical computer interior lighting issue to finally get resolved.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2010

why oh why is it stupid to expect a carmaker to build cars that don't have minds of their own? Listen to yourself and think for a little second without getting mad.

Toyota is doomed. Big time. Our cars shouldn't be teaching us extra credit safety lessons just because their makers can't properly build them.

stever · July 2010

Ah, but cruise control and push button starters and power lift gates are nice features to have and people demand bells and whistles.

Just try finding a car with manual roll up windows these days. The last one I saw was a stripper Pontiac Vibe back in '09 and that was pretty much a deal killer, even though I liked the color and it was a manual transmission that I wanted. Don't remember if it had cruise but that's something I use a lot too.

Not to mention that computer controls improve performance, mileage and emissions.

fho2008 · July 2010

Agreed.....hard to believe cruise is an option, should be standard with all the electronic capabilities of modern cars.

triplej51 · July 2010

When does this NASA report on Toyota SUA come out?

I don't think that you and a number of other haters here will appreciate this but NHTSA is already preparing it's next moves.

Here is the June 30th presentation from NHTSA based on initial results from NASA and the NAS along with a detailed investigation of the claims filed at ODI. It's clear that NHTSA seems to believe that the entire mess was brewed up and blown out of proportion by the MSM, specifically ABC News ( which has shut it's trap ever since the Brian Ross fiasco ) and the LA Times.

Now that the intial findings from the vehicles studied are indicating that there are ZERO vehicles with electronic issues, NHTSA has to find a solution to a problem that's NOT based on correcting electronics. This is a very good presentation by NHTSA on the scope of the problems and some potential solutions in the future.
Study of Electronic Vehicle Controls and Unintended Acceleration, June 30, 2010

Specific interest to this thread, Slide #'s 13, 17, 19, 37, 73, 90 But all the information is interesting.

sharonkl · July 2010

Thanks anythngbutgm. Had seen this. I personally feel the RAV4 has positive attributes that Toyota could/may improve/pursue. 2012.

Toyota on the mend?

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