>Now that the intial findings from the vehicles studied are indicating that there are ZERO vehicles with electronic issues,
You may have missed it, but that's just toyota's (Exponets?) PR on the issue.
They did this earlier with a quick statement that NHSTA ended up clearly saying wasn't true. toyota-lexus just threw it out hoping it would stick in the minds of those open to such mischief.
Thanks for posting these speaker topic overhead outlines triplej51.
Have you found the full complete documentation what each speaker actually said?
I was back on National Academy of Sciences site again and also did googe search, but found nothing with complete speaker discussion documents yesterday. Outlines are great, but don't show what speakers actually said regarding their outline topics.
Just try finding a car with manual roll up windows these days
My younger daughter's first car was a 2002 VM New Beetle with hand crank windows. It was the base model for that year.
This is true... She said that on multiple occasions when she was driving somewhere with friends (off at college), someone would be amazed that the windows were lowered by cranking a handle, and would ask "How much more did that particular option costs?"
Also I found this speakers topic outline overheads extremely interesting. Where oh where is transcript of his full speech??? So wishing/hoping his plus all others become publicly availabe/accessible online.
◦Todd Hubing, Michelin Professor of Vehicle Electronic Systems Integration, Clemson University International Center for Automotive Research - "Analyzing Unintended Acceleration and Electronic Controls"
Sorry but it's YOU who is not up to date. You have to do more research. It's the NHTSA that's stating that there are no electronic issues with the Toyota vehicles.
that yes most all of us regulars have read the police report, busiris. Those of us who have been on here for years and have been on this thread for months and what is now over a year since the off-duty Officer's crash in SD, and we have dicussed the police report ad naseum. And we have listened to the You Tube video sharonkl posted several months ago. That made a huge negative impact on me. But it needed to be watched/listened to.
What is it that is new about that tragedy in the police report that you personally feel absolves Toyota/Lexus of any and all blame? Better be some potent stuff, man. Love ta hear it.
Just try finding a car with manual roll up windows these days. The last one I saw was a stripper Pontiac Vibe back in '09 and that was pretty much a deal killer, even though I liked the color and it was a manual transmission that I wanted. Don't remember if it had cruise but that's something I use a lot too.
My wife's Mom's hubby has a '09 Nissan Versa sedan with the old-school crank up windows. He likes it that way-he doesn't want to pay for all of the "fancy electronics." He complained about the fact that his key won't unlock the passenger side door, only the driver's door lock, too. That went on for a while, now I don't hear that particular complaint any more. Other than that he loves his Versa sedan.
Sorry but it's YOU who is not up to date. You have to do more research. It's the NHTSA that's stating that there are no electronic issues with the Toyota vehicles.
Sorry, it is You that is not keeping up with the latest. It was the Toyota Spin Doctors getting impatient that spread that story for the media. NHTSA responded to Toyota lies.
Toyota Cites Driver Errors in Acceleration Cases July 14, 2010, 1:25 PM EDT
(Updates with NHTSA, analyst comment starting in 11th paragraph.)
NHTSA’s Comment
“Engineers at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration are continuing to investigate the possible causes of sudden acceleration, along with the National Academy of Sciences and NASA,” said Olivia Alair, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Transportation Department, which includes NHTSA, in an e- mailed statement today. “We have drawn no conclusions and released no data. We will follow the facts and inform the public when our investigation comes to an end.”
Toyota's spending $1,000,000 an hour on safety. And these stupid Toyota commercials with mostly women on there praising their Toyota's up and down are not working, Toyota.
How about fixing any and all SUA problems with all of your vehicles, past and present, old and new. And fully cover the cost of that.
Then, so we can all enjoy our hot fudge sundaes tonight after dinner, promise to implement these necessary changes (oh hell yes, they are necessary, busiris) on all new Toyota/Lexus/Scion vehicles from that second onward in all of your production outfits anywhere and everywhere in the world. Period.
Then, the NBA can start working on getting Seattle back a new world order Sonics NBA basketball franchise. And some real sports news can start getting bantered about once again.
>Sorry but it's YOU who is not up to date. You have to do more research.
“We have drawn no conclusions and released no data. We will follow the facts and inform the public when our investigation comes to an end.”
Enough said.
I begin to see a similarity with the sludge in engines that toyota handled using the tough love method. At that time people weren't aware that there were companies who would try to affect the tone of a company's internet reputation by effecting strong counterarguments about people's posts about engine sludge. Indeed, there were even demands made to close discussion groups by someone because it just wasn't true. And, according to one source I had, the whole of the complaints by people posting were eliminated from one such site; they were just gone and not available for anyone to read and study.
This past sludge history came to mind because someone in another discussion here on Edmunds about this toyota-lexus problem and their handling asked to close the discussion because it was unneeded now.
I certainly don't think we're anywhere near closing this discussion and certainly toyota-lexus can't win by just saying that nothing has been found therefore there is nothing wrong in the electronics or electrical operation of the automobile.
iluvmysephia1 thanks for mentioning the You Tube video of the actual local San Diego news stations report on accident I posted. Think police and NHTSA accident reports came up for discussion, and were posted multiple times.
Some newer bloggers may not have seen. I actually left, and just recently returned.
Have no idea how many haven't. But that is ok too. People are busy, and it's difficult to keep up with the enormous amount of information present.
Happy to hear and see Edmunds did not close this site down yet. And personally feel it shouldn't be as yet. Many of us are still in "wait mode" for decision. Smile - this may be a long wait.
I was not familiar with the sludge complaint as I had no vested interest then. Can you say which site did this damage control type of blog monitoring???
Gagrice - this ABC news report also reiterates about same information. Stated interviewed names of NHTSA spokeswoman(??- refer article) and Bart Stupak who is on the Oversight Committee quoted.
I think I saw one article that Toyota is denying release of the debatable WSJ report. Just can't find it. Smile - maybe just my premature mental senility. Forgot to bookmark.
Must also apologize - I had said didn't think news agencies were following up on much. Sorry - whoops.
When I googled I also saw Fox News had sort of implied with language used & stood up for Toyota also. Interesting, but not surprised. Aren't they both owned by Murdock?
no problem on mentioning the You Tube video. It's the Saylor case that really made an impact on me. I am not one to hate Toyota and I have mentioned on here numerous times my test drives of a 2006 Scion xA and a 2005 Scion tC RS 1.0. Both were great test drives and if my other half had been with me on those rides or if I could've talked her in to trading I was prepared to trade our 2nd new Kia, a 2001 Sportage 4X4, in on one of those Scion (Toyota) products. So even though busiris and triplej and whoever else it is on here that think I hate Toyota, it is not true.
Hey, I will buy whatever works for my wife and I and our Pomeranian and Chow Chow for good, dependable transportation. I honestly would feel better if Toyota would discover what's going bonkers with their car's electronics controls and get all of their worldwide interests fixed for good. It would be a leveling off somewhat of their trouble, because they have other fish to repair on this rollercoaster of theirs lately. So one problem at a time but keep all fires stoked and share the repair, baby.
It wouldn't serve interests of automotive enthusiasts anywhere to have them continue to struggle. But make no mistake Toyota is struggling and paying people to cover up things or lying about things to Congressional panels or even to the little guy, the paying customer, is both wrong and very, very disturbing behavior. It bespeaks a coming fall, that it does.
Carry on and thank you sharonkl for your good reporting. It helps when you're busy to have your "sum-ups" written for us.
I honestly would feel better if Toyota would discover what's going bonkers with their car's electronics controls and get all of their worldwide interests fixed for good.
I agree with you 100%. Even the faithful admit to the surging in many recent Toyota models sitting at an idle. They could start by fixing that. If their engineers are not bright enough call Nissan. My newer 2008 Nissan Frontier does not show any of those tendencies.
I don't share your opinion on their doom or demise. They are to Japan, what GM is to the USA. They will sell their first born to keep the name Toyoda alive and kicking. I do expect Toyota to continue the slide on US market share. They have gone from 1st to 3rd, will they go lower?
Sorry but you might want to venture outside this little world here. I am up to date and I know exactly what it is that I wrote. I never said anything about conculsions. That statement that you both referenced from NHTSA is the political disclaimer that had to be put out there from the political side of NHTSA.
There's the difference between the factual results of the studies and 'conclusions'. We'll wait for the final report but I already know what it will say, the admins at NHTSA are leaking it already.
It will be interesting to see the final NHTSA/NASA report, especially where it regards Toyota's EDR (Event Data Recorder). I seem to recall from court cases that the company has been what appears to be overly secretive about what is and is not actually recorded on the device. A year ago there were only a handful of devices in the entire country capable of downloading and interpreting the data.
I also own a Toyota (4Runner) and love it; but I often wonder if the EDR actually records every instance when I press on the brake pedal.
Toyota's EDR past differing stances doesn't help their claims present standing behind their EDR results. Past history, and also recent, indicate Toyota will stand behind results when it is good defense, but then don't stand behind claiming it is only prototype and unreliable as not fully tested when it appears they are loosing because of EDR readouts. I personally have problems/many questions when attempting to verify validity when different stances have been taken. Some other auto manufacturers appear/could use same approach, but how much I don't know. Some don't have EDR's. Some have been more proactive about releasing info to public, use a manufacturers EDR's, and are working with police. It has been purported Toyota has always been quite secretive about their EDR's, and Oversight Committee has had their own problems with this present investigtion as seen in government documents
EDR's systems and readouts presently vary on amount of information available.
Most importantly Law regarding EDR's has not been implemented as yet. I have seen no investigation, research of each manufacturers EDR's, testing validity & reliability, oversight etc. Forensic auto accident science helps to address some issues. Some government investigation was done, but not on Toyota's EDR system. Appears existing passed law is to be implemented 2012 or 2013. Seems new 2010 law is being introduced as recommended by Oversight Committee as seen government site. Mandatory EDR's was reported to be in this new law to be introduced. I have not seen or read full proposed law. Center for Auto Safety did attend these meetings and has produced certain vague topics contained in law, but so far only vague reports are what I could find. Once completely revised, written, introduced then law should be available to be read.
I just can't honestly and objectively take a firm stance on any EDR readout as absolute when no law has been implemented to date and auto manufacturers presently are in total control of information with no oversight, etc. And auto manufaturers legally are still not required to meet any laws, standards. Courts are at present reluctant to act on EDR information.
Manufacturers cannot even be legally challenged for any improprieties as no implemented law exists. But does appear future law & regulation of EDR's could bring many good possibilities. .
triplej51 thanks for your posts and links to the articles. Susposedly/purportedly NHTSA official did make these comments at meeting, but I cant' find any official government documents to see/verify what actually was said and in what context it was said. And spokesperson (name in an ABC report I posted yesterday) for NHTSA says investigation still not completed. Also Bart Stupak a member of Oversight Committee says investigation has way to go and he could not make any claims. Toyota has denied releasing this report news story.
Guess lots of research, factors, etc. will be considered to reach decision that comes forth.
Per Dr Hubing's - research engineer scientist speaker National Academy of Science meeting 100,000,000 lines of electronics code makes this a difficult task to find/undertake to find the culprit. Cost to pursue indepth, may not be feasible. Overheads reveal topic about auto electronics do fail. Prevention of undetected possible electronic failures may/could be more of the approach reached??? I was hoping to see/find this speakers full presentation to the National Academies of Science meeting. Since the autro electronics is the highly debatable topic - would have been quite informative. Topics in overhead outlines appear we could all learn alot from seeing full transcript. Topics reveal he probably talked about many of the debatable blogger issues here. Since Dr Hubing is independent Washington consultant his findings should be more unbiased in his findings. http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/ua/100701hubing.pdf
NASA topic overheads for this meeting were more general.
I respect your position. It is always good to have these debatable conversations. That helps us learn/research more.
We thus all wait for decision. And 15 months for the National Academy of Science broad spectrum based alloted investigation study may take time. I am not sure of NASA investigation engineer research study alloted time. We will be kept busy attempting to keep up with both.
If the Feds think it is too much code to try and debug, they should just mandate a fail-safe brake over ride be installed on all Toyota's with computer controlled throttles. Save a lot of time and frustration.
I am sorry too. The right formulation is tha TOYOTA SAYS (and NHTSA denies have said it!) that SOME of the complaints were due to driver error and that NHTSA have not found electronic issues (which are being studied by NASA, no report yet)
This is a typical case of truth manipulation by TOYOTA
Didn't you take the time to read the 128 pages of the NHTSA + NASA presentation dated June 30th. If not then you should take the time to do so. In that presentation NHTSA + NASA clearly indicate that they have found ZERO electronic problems.
The only problem that they found was the Saylor case which they've already attributed to the wrong mats incorrectly installed.
In case that you don't choose to read the whole thing this is what NHTSA + NASA are saying ... .. all makers are involved .. in the case of the Toyota crashes investigated t's not the electronics .. it very likely has a huge human error factor .. the problems were blown out of proportion by the MSM .. there are specific steps that can be taken to offer better protections
The Feds are 6 - 9 months ahead of you on this. Back in November on the Toyota mat recall it was agreed that the BTO ( Brake Throttle Override ) would be installed on every recalled vehicle where possible. It takes 2-3 hrs for this to be done. Some like the hybrids already have it from the factory.
Soon, very soon, it will be mandated by Congress that every new vehicle manufactured must have the BTO function installed. This too is part of the 128 page presentation that I posted. It was discussed in the Committee meetings last Spring.
Gagrice- would be nice woudln't it. I am not sure if Feds or researchers feel too difficult or impossible to find. And who knows, committee may take brake override direction as one of short term precautions to address. You know, I know, and independent engineers(how I learned little more) know electronic systems fail/produce errors that are/can be undetected.
National Academy of Sciences is a broad based study. NASA will be the study to watch if we can.
Just was quite interesting to see the different topics discussed in the outline overhead guides of some speakers.
triplej51 -Sorry I just came back and realized you were referring to the 128 overhead topic slides on that previous link that was posted.
Also sorry, slides do not factually tell what was actually said. But, yes speaker did have topic reqarding NHTSA SUA findings. I wish slide information did give details. But overhead slides are only a basic outline of topic discussion. A topic is mentioned, but no actual information. Would I be surprised if NHTSA pushed human error more - no. Legal interpretation of business confidentiality in their law and lack of staff/time constraints do present. Business confidentiality is huge legal obstacle for NHTSA.
NHTSA has always been underfunded, and lacked adequate inhouse expertise. Oversight/investigation of industry's highly computerzed autos is extremely difficult. Actually NHTSA has always leaned more to human error factor since they wrote a book on human error many, many years ago. And yes, human factor will always be one of causes for SUA. But this is now 2010, and need for electronics research was seen necessary & needed by Oversight Committee from results of testimony at this particular hearing.
Hopefully complete NASA investigation/result documents will be online for us to review.
Brake override is great. Sounds like it may be coming with new law stays in, if passed. Just hope it is operated on an entirely different system/independent, or else it won't/may not work either as whole system can be faulty/incapacitated if error codes exist. Engineers know this. Hope Washington lawmakers pay attention.
Brake override will definitely help the human error factor per centage improve. And overcome any presenting electronic errors. Need correct systems mandated & required.
You must realize why brake override was insisted by NHTSA. NHTSA had/has been pushing Toyota to do this for long time. Why auto manufacturers have balked installing, when some manufacturers have had since early 1980's is not good - guess is questionable corporate decision we can sure question. Existing failsafe system is not adequate for addressing all issues. The present autos high computerized electronics do indeed require a seen strong need for this. Should have been law, & required long time ago.
Actually I think gagrice knows most of all that has occurred. He has been on since I joined last year.
My son who does auto engineering, program/product development, programming helped me understand complexities immensely.
Keep push on for this mandatory brake overrride law to stay in final draft as lawmakers work on it. Auto manufacturers lobbyists are pushing to have some more stripping occur. Lobbyists have already gotten some things already taken out this new law resulting from oversight committee investigation..
triplej51 - sorry no proof exists NHTSA leaked this story. Why would they take such a strong solid stance TO NEWSPAPER, when investigation just started few months ago and one study is to run for 15 months, and NASA research investigation study timetable still not known to me? NHTSA is under investigation too - this statement would be a huge negative black mark with Oversight Committee. NHTSA has been in hot water since this started. They too have been in protection mode.
No real proof Toyota leaked - saw where they denied leak. Could they have done for PR damage control - sure- but no proof. But Oversight Committee engineers did advise committeeToyota did engineer alter Dr Gilbert's work & setup TV broadcast segment in attempt to debunk Dr Gilbert. Also setup consultant poll to debunk Dr Gilbert and Sean Kane. Governemt documents reveal inappropriate/false PR damage control committed already by Toyota. In governemnt documents. So Toyota has already been caught doing a no no. But I still can not place blame on Toyota for this article either - no proof.
Also this was a topic present in speaker overhead outlines at the National Academy of Sciences meeting. Saw one report Strickland spoke one day, but do not see him listed - only saw NHTSA listed on agenda. There was an audience. H-mmm lots of people could have released this discussion to WSJ. And speech soundbites could have been taken out of full context of speech. And is only one aspect of investigation.
Jest of some news articles wanted readers to reach opinion Toyota SUA caused by driver error not electronics. WSJ was the particular one who did first article and also wrote so reader is left with this impression. But WSJ article did not list, who they interviewed or source, was vague!!! Why?? Others followed with similiar reports quoting WSJ. And some other news agencies followed with actual interviews - those interviewed(many were named) said investigation is still going on. No decision reached.
Who released irrelevant. Lots of opinions/motives can be expressed. No actual factual proof exists as to source. Source WSJ interviewed is not coming forward.
Investigatioin is still going on at present and presently no decision has been made. What decision will be remains to be seen. Lots of puzzle pieces for them to consider. And legal interpetation of NHTSA business confidentiality law could/may restrict what/how much true information released.
What is it that is new about that tragedy in the police report that you personally feel absolves Toyota/Lexus of any and all blame? Better be some potent stuff, man. Love ta hear it.
I never suggested the report absolved Toyota/Lexus of anything other than the obvious...In the Saylors case, the most likely conclusion was that floor mats caused the accident. That is spelled out clearly in the report.
As for substantiating my conclusion that few have actually read the report, go to the "Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause" thread and read through the many comments there, and tell me how many YOU think have read the report.
If you have read it, then great. At least you know the facts in that particular case. However, far too many can't see beyond the CHP officer as being some "super-professional" driver who should have been able to handle any situation thrown at him. The man's duties were those of a bus and ambulance inspector, and I have never seen a single documented piece of evidence demonstrating his having any sort of advanced driver training.
That was my point... Too many people formulating opinions without even examining the facts, or denying the facts when they have been presented.
Also sorry, but by the very existence of these slides and the presentations made by the various NHTSA people referenced in the slides along with the NASA representative it's perfectly obvious where both agencies are going.
One should reading between the slides so to speak. They wouldn't have gone to the trouble to make these various points if they were going 180 deg in the other direction. Inductive reasoning from Freshman logic.
However the slides got into the public doman it's working. After the WSJ story the rest of the media is now picking up on it...today for example.
Keith Crain, Editor-in-Chief of Automotive News in his column today.
Sorry again. The first paragraph of this post is fallacious without verification. It sounds like an opinion.
In fact no US makers until 2009 with the exception of a few ex-Daimler holdovers in the Chrysler lineup had the BTO installed. Some Infiniti's did and most German-made vehicles had it. However none of the GM or Ford or Honda or Toyota or Hyundai vehicles had it with the exception of a small number of recent Toyota hybrids.
It was only after the Saylor case that NHTSA began pushing Toyota to implement it ASAP
I have never seen a single documented piece of evidence demonstrating his having any sort of advanced driver training.
He would have had some at the academy and hopefully refresher courses thereafter.
"The Emergency Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC) is famous throughout the world as the finest law enforcement driver training program available. The course consists of a 2.3-mile, high-performance driving track, two skid recovery practice areas and a defensive driving course. Additional riding facilities are provided for the Motorcycle Enforcement Training Course."
Shoot, there's even a driving course here in Boise for training local and state cops.
Come to think of it, there's a retired CHPs patrol officer participating on the forums here. Maybe I can get him to weigh in on whether driving training is required.
Sharon, leaks are pretty common in government, and you have to remember the revolving door at the NHTSA (and other agencies). Former Toyota employees work there I assume, and we've read that former NHTSA employees now work for Toyota, and likely have maintained their contacts there.
Whoever leaked the presentation ( I think it was Toyota's DC office ) did the right thing by getting the preliminary results out into the public domain to allow the public to decide for itself. The MSM now seems to be running with the info and drawing the appropriate conclusions. Everybody will correctly deny everything, as they should.
This keeps the Oversight Committee from quashing the info and continuing to grandstand. There's not much they can do at this point .... except maybe to invite Mr Toyoda back and apologize to him in public. :shades: Sure that'll happen.
Gilbert and Kane need to be smacked around some more IMO. Kane as mouthpiece of scummy tort attorneys paid Gilbert to show up and testify. Gilbert then allowed ABC News to blindside him with a fake story and make him the key actor. This mockery was stomped to death shortly thereafter, as it should have been.
WSJ: Again reading between the lines. If I have access to the 128 page presentation ( 3rd or 4th hand at best ) then someone posted it on line. I'm certain that the WSJ writer saw the same documents from the June 30th presentation and then wrote his piece based on those documents. Any balanced reasonable person reading through the data presented there knows where NHTSA + NASA are going. Notice that NHTSA is not denying anything contained therein.
Investigations are still ongoing. No one is denying that. I'm laying 3/2 odds that the findings exonerate Toyota for any electronic issues. The mats and pedal issues are resolved by the current recalls. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it as the song goes. I'll check back in 6 months or so to see what actually happened.
He would have had some at the academy and hopefully refresher courses thereafter.
"The Emergency Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC) is famous throughout the world as the finest law enforcement driver training program available. The course consists of a 2.3-mile, high-performance driving track, two skid recovery practice areas and a defensive driving course. Additional riding facilities are provided for the Motorcycle Enforcement Training Course."
Still waiting for you (or anyone else) to show what specific driver's training Saylors had from law enforcement sources. To suggest that he had specific training because he was at the academy is, at best, a stretch.
Its funny. Law enforcement officers sometimes commit crimes, abuse their spouses, steal, murder...etc., yet its apparently impossible for one to be a driver that might panic in a stressful driving situation. As an example...
WSJ was the particular one who did first article and also wrote so reader is left with this impression. But WSJ article did not list, who they interviewed or source, was vague!!! Why?
What amazes me is how many posters here will quote the WSJ and in another thread bad mouth Fox news. They are run by the same guy. So what makes WSJ more credible than Fox News? Toyota has hired layers of PR people since this whole SUA blew up in their face. They will try to discredit anything that hints of a problem with Toyota vehicles. Driver error has been their mantra forever and nothing will change until the Feds come down hard on them. Not some piddly chump change fine of $16 million. The Feds should be billing them for every penny it costs the tax payer to investigate this mess. More people have been killed by runaway Toyotas than the oil spill. So why not force Toyota to put up a $20 billion bond to clean up their mess of bodies on the highways?
1- There will be several theories about Toyota and UA, just as in the Audi episodes....and 9/11....and JFK....and Roswell...and .....
2- No one/entity will be able to conclusively demonstrate electronic induced UA under real-world conditions in Toyotas.
3- Toyota will remain a viable company and continue in business, again, as Audi has done.
4- As the Audi cases mandated auto-transmission interlocking mechanisms, UA this time will cause all future cars to have brake over-ride mechanisms for acceleration, yet UA cases will still be claimed and reported. In addition, ergonomic placement of foot pedals will be defined much more specifically, and perhapes even required to be placed in specific locations with precision measurements mandated.
5- UA events will still be reported, albeit in a reduced amount. Drivers will continue to floor the gas and claim the brake was being applied instead. A large percentage of these people will be advanced in their age.
6- There will be some standardization in "black boxes" throughout the manufacturing base, and these devices will be mandated on all vehicles.
7- There will still be those who will be arguing that human factors did not come into play in those instances, and that the information recorded in the "black box" data recorders is either inaccurate or incomplete.
8- Corporations will still be attempting to "cover their butts" and influencing publc opinion, but in al probability, be much more proficient at it than they are today, both in spending and techniques.
9- Politicians will still be taking events such as UA and using them for their own personal political advancement, just as they did in the Congressional "hearings" on the Toyota eposides.
10. There will still be those who, when "analyzing" a situation, readily accept concepts/facts that appear to substantiate their position, while at the same time, ignoring and discounting the facts that counter their position.
I'm satisfied to wait and see how all of this unfolds.
Comments
You may have missed it, but that's just toyota's (Exponets?) PR on the issue.
They did this earlier with a quick statement that NHSTA ended up clearly saying wasn't true. toyota-lexus just threw it out hoping it would stick in the minds of those open to such mischief.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Have you found the full complete documentation what each speaker actually said?
I was back on National Academy of Sciences site again and also did googe search, but found nothing with complete speaker discussion documents yesterday. Outlines are great, but don't show what speakers actually said regarding their outline topics.
Things that caught my eye from a first read through:
page 24 - most stuck throttle conditions do not involve pedal entrapment.
page 29 - good photo of how to put a Toyota shifter into neutral - not as intuitive as one would think.
page 47 - troubleshooting different now - hundreds of thousands of lines of software code - much harder to trace symptoms to physical causes.
The entire section on human error.
page 83 - good graphic on 8 different types of push button ignitions, followed on the next page by 10 different shifters.
My younger daughter's first car was a 2002 VM New Beetle with hand crank windows. It was the base model for that year.
This is true... She said that on multiple occasions when she was driving somewhere with friends (off at college), someone would be amazed that the windows were lowered by cranking a handle, and would ask "How much more did that particular option costs?"
LOL!!!
Your right. I am referring to "Sikes".
Have you found any full speech documents of each speaker?
Ms. Sawyer (sorry, I mean Sharon
◦Todd Hubing, Michelin Professor of Vehicle Electronic Systems Integration, Clemson University International Center for Automotive Research - "Analyzing Unintended Acceleration and Electronic Controls"
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/ua/100701hubing.pdf
Ha, I am no Ms Sawyer. Enjoyed your inserted car.
That seems to be a rather common problem here.
As an example...Tons of comments about Saylors, yet few have read the actual police report.
And as I posted in past Standford is presently researching the computerized driven auto. Can refer to their Auto Research department.
Not sure if I personally would be ready to give up this control. Already have other driving computerized system packages.
What is it that is new about that tragedy in the police report that you personally feel absolves Toyota/Lexus of any and all blame? Better be some potent stuff, man. Love ta hear it.
Just try finding a car with manual roll up windows these days. The last one I saw was a stripper Pontiac Vibe back in '09 and that was pretty much a deal killer, even though I liked the color and it was a manual transmission that I wanted. Don't remember if it had cruise but that's something I use a lot too.
My wife's Mom's hubby has a '09 Nissan Versa sedan with the old-school crank up windows. He likes it that way-he doesn't want to pay for all of the "fancy electronics." He complained about the fact that his key won't unlock the passenger side door, only the driver's door lock, too. That went on for a while, now I don't hear that particular complaint any more. Other than that he loves his Versa sedan.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Sorry, it is You that is not keeping up with the latest. It was the Toyota Spin Doctors getting impatient that spread that story for the media. NHTSA responded to Toyota lies.
Toyota Cites Driver Errors in Acceleration Cases
July 14, 2010, 1:25 PM EDT
(Updates with NHTSA, analyst comment starting in 11th paragraph.)
NHTSA’s Comment
“Engineers at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration are continuing to investigate the possible causes of sudden acceleration, along with the National Academy of Sciences and NASA,” said Olivia Alair, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Transportation Department, which includes NHTSA, in an e- mailed statement today. “We have drawn no conclusions and released no data. We will follow the facts and inform the public when our investigation comes to an end.”
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-07-14/toyota-cites-driver-errors-in-accele- - ration-cases.html
I guess Toyota wants to be called back in front of Congress for trying to pull a fast one on the car buying public.
How about fixing any and all SUA problems with all of your vehicles, past and present, old and new. And fully cover the cost of that.
Then, so we can all enjoy our hot fudge sundaes tonight after dinner, promise to implement these necessary changes (oh hell yes, they are necessary, busiris) on all new Toyota/Lexus/Scion vehicles from that second onward in all of your production outfits anywhere and everywhere in the world. Period.
Then, the NBA can start working on getting Seattle back a new world order Sonics NBA basketball franchise. And some real sports news can start getting bantered about once again.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
“We have drawn no conclusions and released no data. We will follow the facts and inform the public when our investigation comes to an end.”
Enough said.
I begin to see a similarity with the sludge in engines that toyota handled using the tough love method. At that time people weren't aware that there were companies who would try to affect the tone of a company's internet reputation by effecting strong counterarguments about people's posts about engine sludge. Indeed, there were even demands made to close discussion groups by someone because it just wasn't true. And, according to one source I had, the whole of the complaints by people posting were eliminated from one such site; they were just gone and not available for anyone to read and study.
This past sludge history came to mind because someone in another discussion here on Edmunds about this toyota-lexus problem and their handling asked to close the discussion because it was unneeded now.
I certainly don't think we're anywhere near closing this discussion and certainly toyota-lexus can't win by just saying that nothing has been found therefore there is nothing wrong in the electronics or electrical operation of the automobile.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Some newer bloggers may not have seen. I actually left, and just recently returned.
Have no idea how many haven't. But that is ok too. People are busy, and it's difficult to keep up with the enormous amount of information present.
I was not familiar with the sludge complaint as I had no vested interest then. Can you say which site did this damage control type of blog monitoring???
I think I saw one article that Toyota is denying release of the debatable WSJ report. Just can't find it. Smile - maybe just my premature mental senility. Forgot to bookmark.
Must also apologize - I had said didn't think news agencies were following up on much. Sorry - whoops.
When I googled I also saw Fox News had sort of implied with language used & stood up for Toyota also. Interesting, but not surprised. Aren't they both owned by Murdock?
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/runaway-toyotas-government-book-open/story?id=1116- 2846
Hey, I will buy whatever works for my wife and I and our Pomeranian and Chow Chow for good, dependable transportation. I honestly would feel better if Toyota would discover what's going bonkers with their car's electronics controls and get all of their worldwide interests fixed for good. It would be a leveling off somewhat of their trouble, because they have other fish to repair on this rollercoaster of theirs lately. So one problem at a time but keep all fires stoked and share the repair, baby.
It wouldn't serve interests of automotive enthusiasts anywhere to have them continue to struggle. But make no mistake Toyota is struggling and paying people to cover up things or lying about things to Congressional panels or even to the little guy, the paying customer, is both wrong and very, very disturbing behavior. It bespeaks a coming fall, that it does.
Carry on and thank you sharonkl for your good reporting. It helps when you're busy to have your "sum-ups" written for us.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I agree with you 100%. Even the faithful admit to the surging in many recent Toyota models sitting at an idle. They could start by fixing that. If their engineers are not bright enough call Nissan. My newer 2008 Nissan Frontier does not show any of those tendencies.
I don't share your opinion on their doom or demise. They are to Japan, what GM is to the USA. They will sell their first born to keep the name Toyoda alive and kicking. I do expect Toyota to continue the slide on US market share. They have gone from 1st to 3rd, will they go lower?
Now for the actual facts....
NHTSA administrators indicate that data shows no electronic issues in 75 fatal crashes studied by NHTSA
Same story different sources:
http://chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/07/nhtsa-toyota-recall-probe-not-done.ht- ml
http://www.cargurus.com/blog/2010/07/14/nhtsa-finds-driver-error-as-cause-for-to- yota-acceleration-accidents
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyota-perplexed-nhtsa-calls-on-the-national-ac- ademy-of-science/
There's the difference between the factual results of the studies and 'conclusions'. We'll wait for the final report but I already know what it will say, the admins at NHTSA are leaking it already.
Sludge...lolol.. was that this century or last century??
I also own a Toyota (4Runner) and love it; but I often wonder if the EDR actually records every instance when I press on the brake pedal.
Awesome news. The IS350 now gets optional AWD. :shades:
EDR's systems and readouts presently vary on amount of information available.
Most importantly Law regarding EDR's has not been implemented as yet. I have seen no investigation, research of each manufacturers EDR's, testing validity & reliability, oversight etc. Forensic auto accident science helps to address some issues. Some government investigation was done, but not on Toyota's EDR system. Appears existing passed law is to be implemented 2012 or 2013. Seems new 2010 law is being introduced as recommended by Oversight Committee as seen government site. Mandatory EDR's was reported to be in this new law to be introduced. I have not seen or read full proposed law. Center for Auto Safety did attend these meetings and has produced certain vague topics contained in law, but so far only vague reports are what I could find. Once completely revised, written, introduced then law should be available to be read.
I just can't honestly and objectively take a firm stance on any EDR readout as absolute when no law has been implemented to date and auto manufacturers presently are in total control of information with no oversight, etc. And auto manufaturers legally are still not required to meet any laws, standards. Courts are at present reluctant to act on EDR information.
Manufacturers cannot even be legally challenged for any improprieties as no implemented law exists. But does appear future law & regulation of EDR's could bring many good possibilities. .
Guess lots of research, factors, etc. will be considered to reach decision that comes forth.
Per Dr Hubing's - research engineer scientist speaker National Academy of Science meeting
100,000,000 lines of electronics code makes this a difficult task to find/undertake to find the culprit. Cost to pursue indepth, may not be feasible. Overheads reveal topic about auto electronics do fail. Prevention of undetected possible electronic failures may/could be more of the approach reached??? I was hoping to see/find this speakers full presentation to the National Academies of Science meeting. Since the autro electronics is the highly debatable topic - would have been quite informative. Topics in overhead outlines appear we could all learn alot from seeing full transcript. Topics reveal he probably talked about many of the debatable blogger issues here. Since Dr Hubing is independent Washington consultant his findings should be more unbiased in his findings.
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/ua/100701hubing.pdf
NASA topic overheads for this meeting were more general.
I respect your position. It is always good to have these debatable conversations. That helps us learn/research more.
We thus all wait for decision. And 15 months for the National Academy of Science broad spectrum based alloted investigation study may take time. I am not sure of NASA investigation engineer research study alloted time. We will be kept busy attempting to keep up with both.
This is a typical case of truth manipulation by TOYOTA
The only problem that they found was the Saylor case which they've already attributed to the wrong mats incorrectly installed.
In case that you don't choose to read the whole thing this is what NHTSA + NASA are saying ...
.. all makers are involved
.. in the case of the Toyota crashes investigated t's not the electronics
.. it very likely has a huge human error factor
.. the problems were blown out of proportion by the MSM
.. there are specific steps that can be taken to offer better protections
Soon, very soon, it will be mandated by Congress that every new vehicle manufactured must have the BTO function installed. This too is part of the 128 page presentation that I posted. It was discussed in the Committee meetings last Spring.
I would certainly hope so.
National Academy of Sciences is a broad based study. NASA will be the study to watch if we can.
Just was quite interesting to see the different topics discussed in the outline overhead guides of some speakers.
We can only wait and let it unfold.
Also sorry, slides do not factually tell what was actually said. But, yes speaker did have topic reqarding NHTSA SUA findings. I wish slide information did give details. But overhead slides are only a basic outline of topic discussion. A topic is mentioned, but no actual information. Would I be surprised if NHTSA pushed human error more - no. Legal interpretation of business confidentiality in their law and lack of staff/time constraints do present. Business confidentiality is huge legal obstacle for NHTSA.
NHTSA has always been underfunded, and lacked adequate inhouse expertise. Oversight/investigation of industry's highly computerzed autos is extremely difficult. Actually NHTSA has always leaned more to human error factor since they wrote a book on human error many, many years ago. And yes, human factor will always be one of causes for SUA. But this is now 2010, and need for electronics research was seen necessary & needed by Oversight Committee from results of testimony at this particular hearing.
Hopefully complete NASA investigation/result documents will be online for us to review.
Brake override will definitely help the human error factor per centage improve. And overcome any presenting electronic errors. Need correct systems mandated & required.
Actually I think gagrice knows most of all that has occurred. He has been on since I joined last year.
My son who does auto engineering, program/product development, programming helped me understand complexities immensely.
Keep push on for this mandatory brake overrride law to stay in final draft as lawmakers work on it. Auto manufacturers lobbyists are pushing to have some more stripping occur. Lobbyists have already gotten some things already taken out this new law resulting from oversight committee investigation..
No real proof Toyota leaked - saw where they denied leak. Could they have done for PR damage control - sure- but no proof. But Oversight Committee engineers did advise committeeToyota did engineer alter Dr Gilbert's work & setup TV broadcast segment in attempt to debunk Dr Gilbert. Also setup consultant poll to debunk Dr Gilbert and Sean Kane. Governemt documents reveal inappropriate/false PR damage control committed already by Toyota. In governemnt documents. So Toyota has already been caught doing a no no. But I still can not place blame on Toyota for this article either - no proof.
Also this was a topic present in speaker overhead outlines at the National Academy of Sciences meeting. Saw one report Strickland spoke one day, but do not see him listed - only saw NHTSA listed on agenda. There was an audience. H-mmm lots of people could have released this discussion to WSJ. And speech soundbites could have been taken out of full context of speech. And is only one aspect of investigation.
Jest of some news articles wanted readers to reach opinion Toyota SUA caused by driver error not electronics. WSJ was the particular one who did first article and also wrote so reader is left with this impression. But WSJ article did not list, who they interviewed or source, was vague!!! Why?? Others followed with similiar reports quoting WSJ. And some other news agencies followed with actual interviews - those interviewed(many were named) said investigation is still going on. No decision reached.
Who released irrelevant. Lots of opinions/motives can be expressed. No actual factual proof exists as to source. Source WSJ interviewed is not coming forward.
Investigatioin is still going on at present and presently no decision has been made. What decision will be remains to be seen. Lots of puzzle pieces for them to consider. And legal interpetation of NHTSA business confidentiality law could/may restrict what/how much true information released.
I never suggested the report absolved Toyota/Lexus of anything other than the obvious...In the Saylors case, the most likely conclusion was that floor mats caused the accident. That is spelled out clearly in the report.
As for substantiating my conclusion that few have actually read the report, go to the "Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause" thread and read through the many comments there, and tell me how many YOU think have read the report.
If you have read it, then great. At least you know the facts in that particular case. However, far too many can't see beyond the CHP officer as being some "super-professional" driver who should have been able to handle any situation thrown at him. The man's duties were those of a bus and ambulance inspector, and I have never seen a single documented piece of evidence demonstrating his having any sort of advanced driver training.
That was my point... Too many people formulating opinions without even examining the facts, or denying the facts when they have been presented.
Nothing more.
One should reading between the slides so to speak. They wouldn't have gone to the trouble to make these various points if they were going 180 deg in the other direction. Inductive reasoning from Freshman logic.
However the slides got into the public doman it's working. After the WSJ story the rest of the media is now picking up on it...today for example.
Keith Crain, Editor-in-Chief of Automotive News in his column today.
It looks like Toyota's the victim this time
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100719/OEM06/307199994/1137- - #ixzz0uBZwpyQR
In fact no US makers until 2009 with the exception of a few ex-Daimler holdovers in the Chrysler lineup had the BTO installed. Some Infiniti's did and most German-made vehicles had it. However none of the GM or Ford or Honda or Toyota or Hyundai vehicles had it with the exception of a small number of recent Toyota hybrids.
It was only after the Saylor case that NHTSA began pushing Toyota to implement it ASAP
He would have had some at the academy and hopefully refresher courses thereafter.
"The Emergency Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC) is famous throughout the world as the finest law enforcement driver training program available. The course consists of a 2.3-mile, high-performance driving track, two skid recovery practice areas and a defensive driving course. Additional riding facilities are provided for the Motorcycle Enforcement Training Course."
California Highway Patrol Academy
Shoot, there's even a driving course here in Boise for training local and state cops.
Come to think of it, there's a retired CHPs patrol officer participating on the forums here. Maybe I can get him to weigh in on whether driving training is required.
Sharon, leaks are pretty common in government, and you have to remember the revolving door at the NHTSA (and other agencies). Former Toyota employees work there I assume, and we've read that former NHTSA employees now work for Toyota, and likely have maintained their contacts there.
This keeps the Oversight Committee from quashing the info and continuing to grandstand. There's not much they can do at this point .... except maybe to invite Mr Toyoda back and apologize to him in public. :shades: Sure that'll happen.
Gilbert and Kane need to be smacked around some more IMO. Kane as mouthpiece of scummy tort attorneys paid Gilbert to show up and testify. Gilbert then allowed ABC News to blindside him with a fake story and make him the key actor. This mockery was stomped to death shortly thereafter, as it should have been.
WSJ: Again reading between the lines. If I have access to the 128 page presentation ( 3rd or 4th hand at best ) then someone posted it on line. I'm certain that the WSJ writer saw the same documents from the June 30th presentation and then wrote his piece based on those documents. Any balanced reasonable person reading through the data presented there knows where NHTSA + NASA are going. Notice that NHTSA is not denying anything contained therein.
Investigations are still ongoing. No one is denying that. I'm laying 3/2 odds that the findings exonerate Toyota for any electronic issues. The mats and pedal issues are resolved by the current recalls. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it as the song goes. I'll check back in 6 months or so to see what actually happened.
"The Emergency Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC) is famous throughout the world as the finest law enforcement driver training program available. The course consists of a 2.3-mile, high-performance driving track, two skid recovery practice areas and a defensive driving course. Additional riding facilities are provided for the Motorcycle Enforcement Training Course."
Still waiting for you (or anyone else) to show what specific driver's training Saylors had from law enforcement sources. To suggest that he had specific training because he was at the academy is, at best, a stretch.
Its funny. Law enforcement officers sometimes commit crimes, abuse their spouses, steal, murder...etc., yet its apparently impossible for one to be a driver that might panic in a stressful driving situation. As an example...
http://dreamcatchersforabusedchildren.com/2010/03/chp-officer-gets-probation-for- - -child-molestation-conviction/
or
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_5e2b994f-e48e-50a3-a689-6fe09- dae75a8.html
Why is that?
What amazes me is how many posters here will quote the WSJ and in another thread bad mouth Fox news. They are run by the same guy. So what makes WSJ more credible than Fox News? Toyota has hired layers of PR people since this whole SUA blew up in their face. They will try to discredit anything that hints of a problem with Toyota vehicles. Driver error has been their mantra forever and nothing will change until the Feds come down hard on them. Not some piddly chump change fine of $16 million. The Feds should be billing them for every penny it costs the tax payer to investigate this mess. More people have been killed by runaway Toyotas than the oil spill. So why not force Toyota to put up a $20 billion bond to clean up their mess of bodies on the highways?
1- There will be several theories about Toyota and UA, just as in the Audi episodes....and 9/11....and JFK....and Roswell...and .....
2- No one/entity will be able to conclusively demonstrate electronic induced UA under real-world conditions in Toyotas.
3- Toyota will remain a viable company and continue in business, again, as Audi has done.
4- As the Audi cases mandated auto-transmission interlocking mechanisms, UA this time will cause all future cars to have brake over-ride mechanisms for acceleration, yet UA cases will still be claimed and reported. In addition, ergonomic placement of foot pedals will be defined much more specifically, and perhapes even required to be placed in specific locations with precision measurements mandated.
5- UA events will still be reported, albeit in a reduced amount. Drivers will continue to floor the gas and claim the brake was being applied instead. A large percentage of these people will be advanced in their age.
6- There will be some standardization in "black boxes" throughout the manufacturing base, and these devices will be mandated on all vehicles.
7- There will still be those who will be arguing that human factors did not come into play in those instances, and that the information recorded in the "black box" data recorders is either inaccurate or incomplete.
8- Corporations will still be attempting to "cover their butts" and influencing publc opinion, but in al probability, be much more proficient at it than they are today, both in spending and techniques.
9- Politicians will still be taking events such as UA and using them for their own personal political advancement, just as they did in the Congressional "hearings" on the Toyota eposides.
10. There will still be those who, when "analyzing" a situation, readily accept concepts/facts that appear to substantiate their position, while at the same time, ignoring and discounting the facts that counter their position.
I'm satisfied to wait and see how all of this unfolds.
If I'm wrong, then....I'm wrong.