Toyota on the mend?

ateixeira

The Chevy Equinox is 13" longer. It will out pull, out haul and out run anything in that class from Toyota, Hyundai or Kia. And gets 32 MPG on the highway

The 'nox is a hit, don't get me wrong, but look at any review, in any magazine, and the real-world mileage is nowhere near the EPA numbers.

I'm not sure how they worked their magic to get that 32mpg number (only with FWD, BTW), but in direct comparisons it's only about par for the class.

Also, at the auto show the one I checked out cost $39 grand plus. Ouch. It's really in one (or two, or three even) prices classes above the Kia Sportage.

Heck, a Kia Sorento is cheaper. 276hp V6 and all.

Kia's mistake was not giving the Sportage and Sorento a DI version of the base 4 banger engine. That's why the mpg numbers don't impress.

With the Sonata and Optima, they did. A base Optima makes 200hp and gets 23/35mpg. That's best in class, for less than $20 grand.

Why they didn't give that same powertrain to the Sportage/Sorento is beyond me, but that could easily be fixed.

gagrice

The 'nox is a hit, don't get me wrong, but look at any review, in any magazine, and the real-world mileage is nowhere near the EPA numbers.

Oh, I know that for a fact. I have asked owners about mileage. Generally they say about 16 MPG. That is really too much weight for a 4 cylinder engine. Pulling a 3500 lb trailer that it is rated for is pretty crazy also. But to many the EPA is infallible. It is best to ask several owners of any vehicle you are thinking about on any question you may have. You cannot believe the magazine articles or the CR type sales pitches. Edmund's being the exception to the rule. :shades:

Also, at the auto show the one I checked out cost $39 grand plus.

For only a few thou more you can have the real deal in a ML350 diesel. That gets an honest 30 MPG on the highway and 24 MPG overall. With WAY more power, better handling, safer and comfort to die for. No ToyLex really competes here.

fintail

The E-class...fintail is a bit old and slow to really pace a modern car. But the newer car is far from boring for something of its size and looks. I'd track it against any non-Evo Mitsu or pretty much any new Toyota sedan anytime.

I don't think the Koreans are doing it the Chinese way - they are more savvy than that. The unbalanced Sonata or boring and derivative Genesis and Equus are light years ahead of the Chinese copycars.

ateixeira

I'm all over that diesel...I don't think a compact SUV has any business being in the high $30s unless it has a luxury badge. Even loaded RAV4s get too spendy IMHO. Mid 20s is where they should be.

Still, the 'nox is selling briskly.

Correction - the Optima actually gets 24/35 mpg, so it's even better than I thought.

I'd love to see Kia stuff that DI engine in a wagon/SUV bodystyle, especially something Sorento-sized.

Toyota (and everyone, really) got blind-sided by Hyundai/Kia. Noone saw this coming. A friend who works for Subaru called the Sonata a game changer. When a competing automaker's employee says that, you know it means something.

ateixeira

The unbalanced Sonata or boring and derivative Genesis and Equus

You call them unbalanced, but have you driven them?

I just took an A4 (2.0T, Quattro, std suspension) around an autocross track, I doubt it's any better. That thing pitched and rolled so badly I checked if the sway bars were connected.

A Benz C300 4Matic wasn't much better.

Sure, the Bimmer was, but they hosted the event and the car was $40 grand or so.

You want balance? How about a balance of power and economy? Show me a German car that puts out 276hp and 33mpg highway. At any price. 87 octane, please.

When you universally criticize Asian cars and praise German ones, you remind me of an issue of Road & Track where they took several cars hot lapping. The quickest car was the Subaru Legacy GT spec.B. It beat Audi & BMW and at far lower cost.

Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT spec.B 54.9 sec.
Audi A4 2.0 T Quattro S-Line 55.2 sec.
BMW 325xi 56.0 sec.
Infiniti G35x 56.2 sec.
Volvo S40 T5 AWD 56.3 sec.
Mazda Mazdaspeed6 56.7 sec.
Lexus IS 250 AWD 56.8 sec.

No surprise the soft, underpowered Lexus comes in last, but all that "balance" only yeilded a distant 3rd place for the Bimmer.

Even funnier - the BMW beat the Lexus by 0.8 seconds.

The Subaru beat the Bimmer by 1.1 seconds.

With price a factor, the Subaru won my a mile. Even price no object it clobbered the Bimmer, and virtually tied the Audi for first.

Here's the full article:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/all-wheel-drive-sport-sedans

fintail

Unbalanced was in regards to the styling. I am sure it drives fine for a good appliance.

C300? Base model, soft suspension? Shocking that it wouldn't be a racer.

If I want power and mileage, I'll get a diesel, then I can get more of both.

I didn't know I was universally praising or discounting anything.

Funniest part of that test is that the S40 beat the MS3.

anythngbutgm

I remember that read quite well.

Shoot, I'd wager a Spec B would hold it's own against an IS350 AWD as well, but I haven't found a publication to prove so... The 335xi would leave it in the dust tho.

As far as Audi, I know the Turbo-4 is supposedly a fantastic engine but I think the A4 lost a bit of credibility when it dropped the 6-cylinder option. They appear to be tuned on the soft side as well, probably to get enthusaist driver to pony up the extra 20 grand for the S4...

Oh, and the revised tail on the current models looks dumpy IMO compared to the last gen which was quite handsome. :shades:

ateixeira

Styling, ah, that explains things.

MazdaSpeed6, not 3. The big AWD sedan. The S40 is smaller and lighter. The MazdaSpeed3 would eat both of them alive, I'm guessing.

You do seem dismissive in general about all things Asian-automotive.

I like diesels, too, but a 335d carries nose-bleed prices. *GASP* $47 grand for just a sport pack and freight, and it only comes with an automatic? No thanks!

The Germans have lost their minds. $47 grand buys you TWO competent cars, not one.

23/36 mpg is indeed impressive, but remember, diesel costs a LOT more than 87 octane gas. Advantage Hyundai, albeit slight.

ateixeira

The real irony?

That $47 thou Bimmer only comes in an automatic, while you get a 6 speed manual in the base Sonata. LOL

nippononly

I think Steve's point was that it was the other way around - Bob Barker is dumping on Toyota, deflecting the blame.

Toyota already settled the case. They're no longer liable.

Bob Barker Lexus still is.

Bob Barker was the long-time (now retired) host of The Price is Right.

I believe the name of the dealership you are referring to is Bob Baker Lexus. ;-)

nippononly

I've rented the Galant on a couple of occasions. It is, without a doubt, the most forgettable car on the market. An hour after you've driven it, you can't remember anything about it.

....except perhaps how blinded you were by all the awful silvery plastic masquerading as "aluminum trim"? Or am I thinking of the older Galant?

jimbres

The Galant of the late 80s - early 90s was an interesting car. There were even AMG & AWD versions. Subsequent generations were uniformly dull.

By the late 90s, Mitsubishi was a 4th tier player, reduced to peddling its wares to the credit challenged with "NO PAYMENTS FOR THE FIRST TWELVE MONTHS" come-ons. Many of the cars sold in this fashion were later repo'd. As you might imagine, this did little for the brand's resale values.

Apart from iluv, I don't think that any of us would set foot in a Mitsubishi dealer except to use the restrooms.

ateixeira

Bob Baker, LOL, of course!

If I were on the Price is Right, and a BMW 335d were shown, I'd be off by a good $10 grand or so, so I'd never win anyway.

ateixeira

Remember the Galant VR-4? It was a 4 door DSM car, basically.

The current Galant is what, 8 years old now? With no redo in sight.

Rockville (MD) Mitsubishi just closed. They are now Rockville Kia.

fintail

I had a rental Galant last year, highest mile rental I've ever had (over 40K)...seemed to have held up very well - better than some previous rentals (clapped out 25K mile Spectra comes to mind) , but yeah, nothing special at all, it would have to be insanely cheap to make sense as a purchase.

fintail

Does that manual only exist in theory? Kind of like on a base Camry?

fintail

It's funny, when I first read that rambling material from Baker, I thought it said "Bob Barker"...and I was wondering why the old man was involved in this.

To be really scared, build your own 335d and check every box. You'll get disturbingly close to 60K. But wait three years, and smile.

fintail

My bad about the MS3. The old 6 was a genuinely nice Asian sedan....the new version is kind of big and heavy handed though, kind of lost it. But to be beaten by a Volvo?

Asian cars of late generally have styling that puts me off. If I don't like the looks, I'm never going to want to own it, so I won't drive it.

I think BMW doesn't exactly have holding lots full of unwanted cars, so they must be doing something right. I agree that car is seriously overpriced, but you gotta pay to play. You don't buy a 3er simply wanting a competent car.

Advantage Hyundai in mileage and price, but many people buy cars for other reasons.

jimbres

I have my own personal reason for hating the Galant. A few years ago, I dropped off my BMW at my local dealer for service. When I made the appointment, I requested a loaner, but I overslept that morning. By the time I got to the dealer, all of the BMW loaners were spoken for, & I was given a Galant, courtesy of an Enterprise outlet with which the dealer had an arrangement.

So I set off in the Galant to run some errands, one of which was to pick up 2 shoes, from 2 different pairs, that I had dropped off for resoling. Unfortunately, I was so mesmerized by the Galant driving experience that I forgot to take the shoes out of the car. They were still on the back seat floor when I turned the car in that evening.

When I realized a couple of days later what I had done, I drove down to the Enterprise agency. No joy - the shoes - both lefties - were gone, leaving me with 2 right shoes.

It was entirely the Galant's fault. I hate Mitsubishi.

gagrice

It was entirely the Galant's fault. I hate Mitsubishi.

Now that is funny. I am sure that GW is glad to hear he was not at fault.

iluvmysephia1

Toyota (and everyone, really) got blind-sided by Hyundai/Kia. Noone saw this coming. A friend who works for Subaru called the Sonata a game changer. When a competing automaker's employee says that, you know it means something.

ateixiera-you call it like it is. Pert-near everyone else in hear just grabs the latest thought in their mind about an automaker, doesn't do their research, and lashes out. I saw the goodness in Kia when I bought my 1999 Kia Sephia sedan. They love cars over there and work hard on them to get them right.

Now, take a look at this car and tell me that it isn't the best looking car they've ever seen.


2012 Toyota Celica

Pure beauty, and Toyota designers at their ED2 design offices in Nice, France, have also managed to incorporate aggressive sportiness in to that beautiful design.

Remember, all ya faithful, Toyota is building this car with Subaru. Here are some early specs to appreciate.

The Basics

Vehicle Type: sporty/performance car

Drivetrain (CG estimates)

Drive wheels: rear

Engine: 2.0- and/or 2.5-liter horizontally opposed 4-cylinder

Horsepower: 170-175

Torque: 170-175 lb-ft

Transmission: 6-speed manual, 6-speed automatic

Dimensions (FT-86 Concept)

Wheelbase: 101.2 inches

Length: 163.8 inches

Width: 69.3 inches

Height: 48.2 inches

Base curb weight (CG estimate): 2,450 pounds

This article, from the ConsumerGuide Automotive website, lists $17,000 for the base model price! Now, that's got to be revised upward by now, but I am personally changing back my own 2012 Toyota Celica 6-speed base MSRP to $20,995. I really don't think it will cost more than that. I will buy one, however, if the price is $22,995 at release time. If it's a hair more than that, I'm out.

It's all good coming from Asia, either from Mitsubishi, Kia or Toyota.Those are your three heavy-hitters who really know what they are doing and have their heads on straight.

The Germans are smoking some strong hashish and listening to some vintage Guess Who while they're supposed to be building fine motorcars. It ain't happening.

gagrice

I think BMW doesn't exactly have holding lots full of unwanted cars, so they must be doing something right.

Last I read they have knocked Lexus off the luxury pedestal. I think MB may be number two here now. The mighty Lexus lasted 20 years. Their styling stinks now. The only model that would be of interest is the GX. It is not only ugly but looks top heavy. My neighbor has one. It sits in his driveway while he parks his PU in the garage. Is there any area the GX competes with the comps from MB, Audi and BMW? They all offer diesel while Toyota sticks with their 15 MPG gas guzzlers. They were late to the market with a full sized PU, will they miss the mark on diesel power.

About half the year diesel is less than RUG and rarely as high as premium required by most of the Luxury gassers.

iluvmysephia1

here's the 2012 Celica all sportied and gussied up to drift with da best of 'em.


G-Sports Series

smarty666

You couldn't have it more wrong man. The best bang for your buck has never to this day been GM or Ford, maybe someday, but not any time soon. I was with GM for over 30 years and had consistent problem after problem model and was left hung out to dry after warranty. I nearly went bankrupt just spending thousands upon thousands to keep the cars running when they were only 3-6 years old.

Companies that are really good bang for their buck, don't have to declare bankruptcy and/or take out billions in bailouts/loans in order to survive.

The Japanese and German makes still out perform, handle, and have higher quality then the American makes. If you think that what GM and Ford are producing is not pablum for the kids and unwashed masses then we must each live in different countries. GM did everything and anything to get back to the number 1 spot in this country and mass producing vehicles left and right and that is what got them into trouble in the first place, besides mass producing poor quality/reliability products. That is exactly where they were before bankruptcy.

Toyota is far from being down for the count and gone like you and other doom and gloomers on here tried to tell us for months. I'm glad GM is first again b/c if there is anything history has taught us is that companies that are in the number 1 spot in the US are the ones with the most problems (GM, Ford, and Toyota!).

iluvmysephia1

I totally agree with your post above, and take a look. Your post is post #10666!

And your nickname is smarty666 no less. :surprise:

BTW-do you own any Toyota products, smarty666? And if you do, or ever have, what do you think of them?

smarty666

Wow, funny how that worked out with the post number.

Anyway, all the data month after month still showing the Camry as the best selling mid-size sedan in this country must be all a deception and lie considering Toyota was suppose to be in utter dis-array and possibly oblivion right now

obyone

Horsepower: 170-175

Torque: 170-175 lb-ft

Base curb weight (CG estimate): 2,450 pounds

There's something to be said about sub 200 HP vehicles. Now if they could get the HP/torque up in the 3-400 range in a 2450 pound vehicle all for $22K, I probably would buy it regardless what it looked like as long as it was fast az.

Like dropping an 8 into something like this would work.

breld

Am I the only one who believes Celica would not be an appropriate name for this new Toyota model, due to the wheels being driven?

Was the Celica ever a RWD car? Maybe back in the 70's? In any case, the last several generations were FWD (or AWD with the all-trac), right?

It just seems like such a fundamental difference that the use of the Celica name is inappropriate, or even misleading.

Now how about "SVX" for the Subaru version?

fezo

Oh, there were years of rear drive Celicas - maybe up to the last couple of generations? Someone in here will have the exact details.

fintail

I think Celicas were RWD through the 1985 model year.

Including the wedge 82-85 Supra, which would be one of the few older Japanese cars I wouldn't mind having sometime.

fintail

Fun story, I'll have to look for shoes the next time I rent a car. Mine was also from Enterprise....I see new rental Galants on the road now and then, I can't imagine they sell to private buyers much, old old design now too.

OT and for another thread, last time I rented a car, it was from Budget. Lower mileage than any Enterprise I've rented, but it cost more even for the cheapo (Versa).

fintail

Is that a pic from the Grand Theft Auto video game series?

fintail

The Germans are kicking butt right now in the upper end, every maker is seeing success. I think Lexus overblandified.

iluvmysephia1

you mean this one?



If so, no, this is Toyota's G-Series, a racing version of the new 2012 Toyota Celica. They showed this at the 2009 Tokyo Auto Show.

Am I the only one who believes Celica would not be an appropriate name for this new Toyota model, due to the wheels being driven?

Oh, and breld, for strict clarification, I am just calling it the Celica at this point. Toyota is calling the new 2012 Celica the name FT-86 for now.

Toyota is also calling the 2012 Toyota Celica FR-S, they registered the name FR-S in the U.S. several months ago.


2012 Toyota FR-S

Apparently FR-S stand for Front engine, Rear drive, Sports car.

gagrice

I don't think Celica is a good name for the whatever Toyota. I did not like the Supra either. I thought it was a lame try to get into the sports car field. My niece bought one in about 1983. It was in the shop with engine problems, more than on the road. She ended up wrecking it and almost died in the accident.

The looks never appealed to me. The FT86 has marginal aesthetic appeal to me. One of those cars you only take out on perfect days for a romp on the winding back country roads. I don't think I will live long enough for them to become a classic and worth close to what they cost new. I am still thinking $30k plus decently equipped. It would be crazy for them to bring them to the states as bare bones stripped models. Unless the Yen takes a real dive against the dollar. Or they pull a stunt like they did with the Lexus when new.

jimbres

If I were a senior Toyota exec, the fact that you really like this car would really worry me. As a rule, the cars that you fall in love with tend to be just about sales-proof - for example, anything made by Mitsubishi, which probably won't be around 5 years from now, & the Suzuki Kizashi, which will probably be gone in a year. (When was the last time that you saw anything made by Suzuki on a road near you?)

gagrice

I think you may be onto something. Mitsubishi is holding on by a thread. If Toyota does not give Iluv an FT86 for well below cost, Toyota could be going the way of the dinosaurs. :shades: Lexus has taken a Real dive. Can they pull out of it?

September numbers:
Ford: +49.3% to 147,057
Toyota: +20.5% to 130,214
Chevrolet: +18.5% to 121,479
Honda: +23.8% to 86,641
Nissan: +35.1% to 65,900
Ram: +50.9% to 54,126
Hyundai: +47.8% to 46,556
Dodge: +71% to 36,272
Kia: +39.1% to 30,071
Jeep: +65.5% to 28,603
GMC: +41.6% to 25,995
Subaru: +46.9% to 21,432
Volkswagen: +14.9% to 19,943
Mazda: +30.5% to 18,580
Chrysler: +91.8% to 17,348
Mercury: +15.9% to 6306
Mitsubishi: +5.3% to 4961
Mini: +18.3% to 4884
Suzuki: -11.7% to 1641
smart: -48.2% to 422

Luxury brands:

Mercedes-Benz: +21.7% to 20,666
BMW: +21.1% to 18,228
Lexus: -5.5% to 16,948
Buick: +36.2% to 12,875
Cadillac: +11.3% to 12,620
Acura: +47.7% to 10,720
Infiniti: +25.6% to 8305
Audi: +13.1% to 8151
Lincoln: +25.6% to 7510
Volvo: -12% to 4152
Land Rover: +11.8% to 2489
Porsche: +24.7% to 1971
Saab: +133% to 1127
Jaguar: +9.9% to 967

Canada
Ford Motor Company: +63.9% to 26,450
General Motors: -24.1% to 17,885
Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep: +1.5% to 16,039
Toyota: -17.5% to 13,258
Honda: +8.3% to 12,202
Hyundai: +12.1% to 10,406
Nissan: +18.3% to 7798
Mazda: +5.5% to 6881
Kia: +5.1% to 4745
Volkswagen: -6.6% to 3,276
Subaru: -3.8% to 2447
Mitsubishi: -20.9% to 1373
Suzuki: -36.9% to 852
Mini: +32.6% to 451
smart: -54.2% to 143

BMW: +8.3% to 2602
Mercedes-Benz: +9.3% to 2458
Acura: +29.5% to 1460
Audi: +18% to 1311
Lexus: -13.2% to 1305
Infiniti: +17.4% to 750
Volvo: +5.7% to 537
Land Rover: +30.2% to 233
Porsche: +45.6% to 166
Jaguar: +12.9% to 70

Borrowed list

ateixeira

Does that manual only exist in theory? Kind of like on a base Camry?

The local dealer (fitzmall.com) has 1 in stock.

And 173 automatics. LOL

Rare, but they exist. Plus, that's what they have left, the 6 speed manuals may have sold first. Hopefully Hyundai builds more.

ateixeira

Toyota could be going the way of the dinosaurs

I can't see the emotorcon after that statement, but the list directly below has Toyota as the #2 grand with strong growth, so hopefully it was a winky emotorcon and you were joking.

Lexus has taken a Real dive

You only showed September, what about YTD?

Mercedes: 165,427 (they passed Lexus by gaining 0.2% market share)
Lexus: 162,438
BMW: 157,464
Buick: 114,000
Cadillac: 105,013

Plus, remember, the Lexus lineup is old. The only new model is the HS and pricey hybrids are a small niche. The IS is ancient, that Road & Track test was from 2006 and they tested the current car! The ES and GS are also long in the tooth, so their volume cars are all very old. You may expect their market share in 2010 to be lower than it was for 2009, but it's not, it's actually remained stable at 1.9%.

Lexus has not taken a dive - they have actually maintained market share despite all the bad press and an old lineup. That's remarkable. It would actually be normal for them to LOSE market share with the IS/ES/GS near the end of their life cycle, think about it.

Switching gears a bit....

As for bang-for-the-buck, Hyundai's advantage is that the Korean car industry is relatively young, and they don't have huge pensions to fund, nor is healthcare as expensive. Basically they have much less overhead.

Low overhead = bang for the buck. That's why Hyundai can deliver value like noone else right now.

So just like the Japanese had a cost advantage over the Domestics, now the Koreans enjoy a cost advantage over both. Pretty soon the Chinese automakers will enjoy a cost advantage over Korea, if they can design competent cars instead of spewing out clones of older designs.

fezo

Darn you! I looked over at fitzmall and can't find the manual Camry.... Maybe they sold it.

ateixeira

Oh, I meant a 6 speed manual Sonata.

I didn't look at Camrys...

fezo

Ah! Now I'll go look at that...

fezo

Oh, liked that. If they had one with a sunroof....

fintail

"the 6 speed manuals may have sold first"

LOL...we're in North America...I'm pretty sure that's not the case :shades:

ateixeira

Well, if 6 out of 200 of them came in manuals, I wouldn't be surprised if they sold 50 autos and 5 sticks. 10 to 1 ratio sounds about right.

The irony is, they don't sell well, so they order even fewer of them, and there's a shortage for us 3-pedal fans!

ateixeira

Speak of the devil...

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/05/spy-shots-next-gen-lexus-gs-mule-caught-testi- - ng/

The first GS was a Toyota Aristo in a tux. The 2nd one was actually interesting, but this 3rd one was just too soft for its segment.

Infiniti's M sedan is a hit, so hopefully that inspires Lexus to try harder this time around.

the reworked GS underpinnings will go on to form the groundwork for the smaller, overhauled IS, which is set to debut in 2013.

The IS even more so. The original IS300 had a strange chronograph IP, but at least it was interesting. Besides the IS-F, the current one is also too soft, and the design doesn't set hearts aflutter, either.

These 2 new designs will surely improve things.

fintail

I could maybe believe some kind of 100:3 ratio, no way in heck could I believe 10:1, not with so many of them going to vanilla leased appliance buyers, and a good chunk going to fleets too.

Regarding the new Lexus models, still a couple years off....that's really pushing it for two already aged designs. Who do they think they are, Mercedes in 1989?

ateixeira

Agreed - too long a life cycle for a car (especially the IS).

explorerx4

A few months ago, I said this was in the pipeline.
Allstate is the first
Will this kind of thing accelerate faster than Toyota can handle or stall out?

larsb

I say "Good Luck" to AllState or ANY insurance company who has to try and PROVE that the car malfunctioning caused any accident.

NASA is working on it.

Get back to me when they solve it. :shades: