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Comments
The 'nox is a hit, don't get me wrong, but look at any review, in any magazine, and the real-world mileage is nowhere near the EPA numbers.
I'm not sure how they worked their magic to get that 32mpg number (only with FWD, BTW), but in direct comparisons it's only about par for the class.
Also, at the auto show the one I checked out cost $39 grand plus. Ouch. It's really in one (or two, or three even) prices classes above the Kia Sportage.
Heck, a Kia Sorento is cheaper. 276hp V6 and all.
Kia's mistake was not giving the Sportage and Sorento a DI version of the base 4 banger engine. That's why the mpg numbers don't impress.
With the Sonata and Optima, they did. A base Optima makes 200hp and gets 23/35mpg. That's best in class, for less than $20 grand.
Why they didn't give that same powertrain to the Sportage/Sorento is beyond me, but that could easily be fixed.
Oh, I know that for a fact. I have asked owners about mileage. Generally they say about 16 MPG. That is really too much weight for a 4 cylinder engine. Pulling a 3500 lb trailer that it is rated for is pretty crazy also. But to many the EPA is infallible. It is best to ask several owners of any vehicle you are thinking about on any question you may have. You cannot believe the magazine articles or the CR type sales pitches. Edmund's being the exception to the rule. :shades:
Also, at the auto show the one I checked out cost $39 grand plus.
For only a few thou more you can have the real deal in a ML350 diesel. That gets an honest 30 MPG on the highway and 24 MPG overall. With WAY more power, better handling, safer and comfort to die for. No ToyLex really competes here.
I don't think the Koreans are doing it the Chinese way - they are more savvy than that. The unbalanced Sonata or boring and derivative Genesis and Equus are light years ahead of the Chinese copycars.
Still, the 'nox is selling briskly.
Correction - the Optima actually gets 24/35 mpg, so it's even better than I thought.
I'd love to see Kia stuff that DI engine in a wagon/SUV bodystyle, especially something Sorento-sized.
Toyota (and everyone, really) got blind-sided by Hyundai/Kia. Noone saw this coming. A friend who works for Subaru called the Sonata a game changer. When a competing automaker's employee says that, you know it means something.
You call them unbalanced, but have you driven them?
I just took an A4 (2.0T, Quattro, std suspension) around an autocross track, I doubt it's any better. That thing pitched and rolled so badly I checked if the sway bars were connected.
A Benz C300 4Matic wasn't much better.
Sure, the Bimmer was, but they hosted the event and the car was $40 grand or so.
You want balance? How about a balance of power and economy? Show me a German car that puts out 276hp and 33mpg highway. At any price. 87 octane, please.
When you universally criticize Asian cars and praise German ones, you remind me of an issue of Road & Track where they took several cars hot lapping. The quickest car was the Subaru Legacy GT spec.B. It beat Audi & BMW and at far lower cost.
Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT spec.B 54.9 sec.
Audi A4 2.0 T Quattro S-Line 55.2 sec.
BMW 325xi 56.0 sec.
Infiniti G35x 56.2 sec.
Volvo S40 T5 AWD 56.3 sec.
Mazda Mazdaspeed6 56.7 sec.
Lexus IS 250 AWD 56.8 sec.
No surprise the soft, underpowered Lexus comes in last, but all that "balance" only yeilded a distant 3rd place for the Bimmer.
Even funnier - the BMW beat the Lexus by 0.8 seconds.
The Subaru beat the Bimmer by 1.1 seconds.
With price a factor, the Subaru won my a mile. Even price no object it clobbered the Bimmer, and virtually tied the Audi for first.
Here's the full article:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/all-wheel-drive-sport-sedans
C300? Base model, soft suspension? Shocking that it wouldn't be a racer.
If I want power and mileage, I'll get a diesel, then I can get more of both.
I didn't know I was universally praising or discounting anything.
Funniest part of that test is that the S40 beat the MS3.
Shoot, I'd wager a Spec B would hold it's own against an IS350 AWD as well, but I haven't found a publication to prove so... The 335xi would leave it in the dust tho.
As far as Audi, I know the Turbo-4 is supposedly a fantastic engine but I think the A4 lost a bit of credibility when it dropped the 6-cylinder option. They appear to be tuned on the soft side as well, probably to get enthusaist driver to pony up the extra 20 grand for the S4...
Oh, and the revised tail on the current models looks dumpy IMO compared to the last gen which was quite handsome. :shades:
MazdaSpeed6, not 3. The big AWD sedan. The S40 is smaller and lighter. The MazdaSpeed3 would eat both of them alive, I'm guessing.
You do seem dismissive in general about all things Asian-automotive.
I like diesels, too, but a 335d carries nose-bleed prices. *GASP* $47 grand for just a sport pack and freight, and it only comes with an automatic? No thanks!
The Germans have lost their minds. $47 grand buys you TWO competent cars, not one.
23/36 mpg is indeed impressive, but remember, diesel costs a LOT more than 87 octane gas. Advantage Hyundai, albeit slight.
That $47 thou Bimmer only comes in an automatic, while you get a 6 speed manual in the base Sonata. LOL
Toyota already settled the case. They're no longer liable.
Bob Barker Lexus still is.
Bob Barker was the long-time (now retired) host of The Price is Right.
I believe the name of the dealership you are referring to is Bob Baker Lexus. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
....except perhaps how blinded you were by all the awful silvery plastic masquerading as "aluminum trim"? Or am I thinking of the older Galant?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
By the late 90s, Mitsubishi was a 4th tier player, reduced to peddling its wares to the credit challenged with "NO PAYMENTS FOR THE FIRST TWELVE MONTHS" come-ons. Many of the cars sold in this fashion were later repo'd. As you might imagine, this did little for the brand's resale values.
Apart from iluv, I don't think that any of us would set foot in a Mitsubishi dealer except to use the restrooms.
If I were on the Price is Right, and a BMW 335d were shown, I'd be off by a good $10 grand or so, so I'd never win anyway.
The current Galant is what, 8 years old now? With no redo in sight.
Rockville (MD) Mitsubishi just closed. They are now Rockville Kia.
To be really scared, build your own 335d and check every box. You'll get disturbingly close to 60K. But wait three years, and smile.
Asian cars of late generally have styling that puts me off. If I don't like the looks, I'm never going to want to own it, so I won't drive it.
I think BMW doesn't exactly have holding lots full of unwanted cars, so they must be doing something right. I agree that car is seriously overpriced, but you gotta pay to play. You don't buy a 3er simply wanting a competent car.
Advantage Hyundai in mileage and price, but many people buy cars for other reasons.
So I set off in the Galant to run some errands, one of which was to pick up 2 shoes, from 2 different pairs, that I had dropped off for resoling. Unfortunately, I was so mesmerized by the Galant driving experience that I forgot to take the shoes out of the car. They were still on the back seat floor when I turned the car in that evening.
When I realized a couple of days later what I had done, I drove down to the Enterprise agency. No joy - the shoes - both lefties - were gone, leaving me with 2 right shoes.
It was entirely the Galant's fault. I hate Mitsubishi.
Now that is funny. I am sure that GW is glad to hear he was not at fault.
ateixiera-you call it like it is. Pert-near everyone else in hear just grabs the latest thought in their mind about an automaker, doesn't do their research, and lashes out. I saw the goodness in Kia when I bought my 1999 Kia Sephia sedan. They love cars over there and work hard on them to get them right.
Now, take a look at this car and tell me that it isn't the best looking car they've ever seen.
2012 Toyota Celica
Pure beauty, and Toyota designers at their ED2 design offices in Nice, France, have also managed to incorporate aggressive sportiness in to that beautiful design.
Remember, all ya faithful, Toyota is building this car with Subaru. Here are some early specs to appreciate.
The Basics
Vehicle Type: sporty/performance car
Drivetrain (CG estimates)
Drive wheels: rear
Engine: 2.0- and/or 2.5-liter horizontally opposed 4-cylinder
Horsepower: 170-175
Torque: 170-175 lb-ft
Transmission: 6-speed manual, 6-speed automatic
Dimensions (FT-86 Concept)
Wheelbase: 101.2 inches
Length: 163.8 inches
Width: 69.3 inches
Height: 48.2 inches
Base curb weight (CG estimate): 2,450 pounds
This article, from the ConsumerGuide Automotive website, lists $17,000 for the base model price! Now, that's got to be revised upward by now, but I am personally changing back my own 2012 Toyota Celica 6-speed base MSRP to $20,995. I really don't think it will cost more than that. I will buy one, however, if the price is $22,995 at release time. If it's a hair more than that, I'm out.
It's all good coming from Asia, either from Mitsubishi, Kia or Toyota.Those are your three heavy-hitters who really know what they are doing and have their heads on straight.
The Germans are smoking some strong hashish and listening to some vintage Guess Who while they're supposed to be building fine motorcars. It ain't happening.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Last I read they have knocked Lexus off the luxury pedestal. I think MB may be number two here now. The mighty Lexus lasted 20 years. Their styling stinks now. The only model that would be of interest is the GX. It is not only ugly but looks top heavy. My neighbor has one. It sits in his driveway while he parks his PU in the garage. Is there any area the GX competes with the comps from MB, Audi and BMW? They all offer diesel while Toyota sticks with their 15 MPG gas guzzlers. They were late to the market with a full sized PU, will they miss the mark on diesel power.
About half the year diesel is less than RUG and rarely as high as premium required by most of the Luxury gassers.
G-Sports Series
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Companies that are really good bang for their buck, don't have to declare bankruptcy and/or take out billions in bailouts/loans in order to survive.
The Japanese and German makes still out perform, handle, and have higher quality then the American makes. If you think that what GM and Ford are producing is not pablum for the kids and unwashed masses then we must each live in different countries. GM did everything and anything to get back to the number 1 spot in this country and mass producing vehicles left and right and that is what got them into trouble in the first place, besides mass producing poor quality/reliability products. That is exactly where they were before bankruptcy.
Toyota is far from being down for the count and gone like you and other doom and gloomers on here tried to tell us for months. I'm glad GM is first again b/c if there is anything history has taught us is that companies that are in the number 1 spot in the US are the ones with the most problems (GM, Ford, and Toyota!).
And your nickname is smarty666 no less. :surprise:
BTW-do you own any Toyota products, smarty666? And if you do, or ever have, what do you think of them?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Anyway, all the data month after month still showing the Camry as the best selling mid-size sedan in this country must be all a deception and lie considering Toyota was suppose to be in utter dis-array and possibly oblivion right now
Torque: 170-175 lb-ft
Base curb weight (CG estimate): 2,450 pounds
There's something to be said about sub 200 HP vehicles. Now if they could get the HP/torque up in the 3-400 range in a 2450 pound vehicle all for $22K, I probably would buy it regardless what it looked like as long as it was fast az.
Like dropping an 8 into something like this would work.
Was the Celica ever a RWD car? Maybe back in the 70's? In any case, the last several generations were FWD (or AWD with the all-trac), right?
It just seems like such a fundamental difference that the use of the Celica name is inappropriate, or even misleading.
Now how about "SVX" for the Subaru version?
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2024 Corvette - 2024 BMW X5 - 2023 Tesla Model Y
Including the wedge 82-85 Supra, which would be one of the few older Japanese cars I wouldn't mind having sometime.
OT and for another thread, last time I rented a car, it was from Budget. Lower mileage than any Enterprise I've rented, but it cost more even for the cheapo (Versa).
If so, no, this is Toyota's G-Series, a racing version of the new 2012 Toyota Celica. They showed this at the 2009 Tokyo Auto Show.
Am I the only one who believes Celica would not be an appropriate name for this new Toyota model, due to the wheels being driven?
Oh, and breld, for strict clarification, I am just calling it the Celica at this point. Toyota is calling the new 2012 Celica the name FT-86 for now.
Toyota is also calling the 2012 Toyota Celica FR-S, they registered the name FR-S in the U.S. several months ago.
2012 Toyota FR-S
Apparently FR-S stand for Front engine, Rear drive, Sports car.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The looks never appealed to me. The FT86 has marginal aesthetic appeal to me. One of those cars you only take out on perfect days for a romp on the winding back country roads. I don't think I will live long enough for them to become a classic and worth close to what they cost new. I am still thinking $30k plus decently equipped. It would be crazy for them to bring them to the states as bare bones stripped models. Unless the Yen takes a real dive against the dollar. Or they pull a stunt like they did with the Lexus when new.
September numbers:
Ford: +49.3% to 147,057
Toyota: +20.5% to 130,214
Chevrolet: +18.5% to 121,479
Honda: +23.8% to 86,641
Nissan: +35.1% to 65,900
Ram: +50.9% to 54,126
Hyundai: +47.8% to 46,556
Dodge: +71% to 36,272
Kia: +39.1% to 30,071
Jeep: +65.5% to 28,603
GMC: +41.6% to 25,995
Subaru: +46.9% to 21,432
Volkswagen: +14.9% to 19,943
Mazda: +30.5% to 18,580
Chrysler: +91.8% to 17,348
Mercury: +15.9% to 6306
Mitsubishi: +5.3% to 4961
Mini: +18.3% to 4884
Suzuki: -11.7% to 1641
smart: -48.2% to 422
Luxury brands:
Mercedes-Benz: +21.7% to 20,666
BMW: +21.1% to 18,228
Lexus: -5.5% to 16,948
Buick: +36.2% to 12,875
Cadillac: +11.3% to 12,620
Acura: +47.7% to 10,720
Infiniti: +25.6% to 8305
Audi: +13.1% to 8151
Lincoln: +25.6% to 7510
Volvo: -12% to 4152
Land Rover: +11.8% to 2489
Porsche: +24.7% to 1971
Saab: +133% to 1127
Jaguar: +9.9% to 967
Canada
Ford Motor Company: +63.9% to 26,450
General Motors: -24.1% to 17,885
Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep: +1.5% to 16,039
Toyota: -17.5% to 13,258
Honda: +8.3% to 12,202
Hyundai: +12.1% to 10,406
Nissan: +18.3% to 7798
Mazda: +5.5% to 6881
Kia: +5.1% to 4745
Volkswagen: -6.6% to 3,276
Subaru: -3.8% to 2447
Mitsubishi: -20.9% to 1373
Suzuki: -36.9% to 852
Mini: +32.6% to 451
smart: -54.2% to 143
BMW: +8.3% to 2602
Mercedes-Benz: +9.3% to 2458
Acura: +29.5% to 1460
Audi: +18% to 1311
Lexus: -13.2% to 1305
Infiniti: +17.4% to 750
Volvo: +5.7% to 537
Land Rover: +30.2% to 233
Porsche: +45.6% to 166
Jaguar: +12.9% to 70
Borrowed list
The local dealer (fitzmall.com) has 1 in stock.
And 173 automatics. LOL
Rare, but they exist. Plus, that's what they have left, the 6 speed manuals may have sold first. Hopefully Hyundai builds more.
I can't see the emotorcon after that statement, but the list directly below has Toyota as the #2 grand with strong growth, so hopefully it was a winky emotorcon and you were joking.
Lexus has taken a Real dive
You only showed September, what about YTD?
Mercedes: 165,427 (they passed Lexus by gaining 0.2% market share)
Lexus: 162,438
BMW: 157,464
Buick: 114,000
Cadillac: 105,013
Plus, remember, the Lexus lineup is old. The only new model is the HS and pricey hybrids are a small niche. The IS is ancient, that Road & Track test was from 2006 and they tested the current car! The ES and GS are also long in the tooth, so their volume cars are all very old. You may expect their market share in 2010 to be lower than it was for 2009, but it's not, it's actually remained stable at 1.9%.
Lexus has not taken a dive - they have actually maintained market share despite all the bad press and an old lineup. That's remarkable. It would actually be normal for them to LOSE market share with the IS/ES/GS near the end of their life cycle, think about it.
Switching gears a bit....
As for bang-for-the-buck, Hyundai's advantage is that the Korean car industry is relatively young, and they don't have huge pensions to fund, nor is healthcare as expensive. Basically they have much less overhead.
Low overhead = bang for the buck. That's why Hyundai can deliver value like noone else right now.
So just like the Japanese had a cost advantage over the Domestics, now the Koreans enjoy a cost advantage over both. Pretty soon the Chinese automakers will enjoy a cost advantage over Korea, if they can design competent cars instead of spewing out clones of older designs.
I didn't look at Camrys...
LOL...we're in North America...I'm pretty sure that's not the case :shades:
The irony is, they don't sell well, so they order even fewer of them, and there's a shortage for us 3-pedal fans!
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/05/spy-shots-next-gen-lexus-gs-mule-caught-testi- - ng/
The first GS was a Toyota Aristo in a tux. The 2nd one was actually interesting, but this 3rd one was just too soft for its segment.
Infiniti's M sedan is a hit, so hopefully that inspires Lexus to try harder this time around.
the reworked GS underpinnings will go on to form the groundwork for the smaller, overhauled IS, which is set to debut in 2013.
The IS even more so. The original IS300 had a strange chronograph IP, but at least it was interesting. Besides the IS-F, the current one is also too soft, and the design doesn't set hearts aflutter, either.
These 2 new designs will surely improve things.
Regarding the new Lexus models, still a couple years off....that's really pushing it for two already aged designs. Who do they think they are, Mercedes in 1989?
Allstate is the first
Will this kind of thing accelerate faster than Toyota can handle or stall out?
NASA is working on it.
Get back to me when they solve it. :shades: