No, it uses the Camry drivetrain and is based on the Avensis platform - it is a super Camry Hybrid, LOL.
Now the CT200H will use the same platform, WITH the Prius drivetrain, modified to be "sporty" like the tC is on the same platform. The CT200 will be the 5-door version of the 250H, only with a downgraded engine. And still priced at $31,5. LOL!
I love how they continue to compare it to the A3 TDI, which is similarly priced, but almost 2 seconds quicker to 60 and without a CVT to tolerate.
Don't see either of these models generating waiting lists.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My AMG would have to be totaled before I'd even consider it, and I'd probably rather lease a nice lowline German if I was going to be a leaser - at least those models seem newer. But I can't imagine doing that anytime soon.
My bad, HS hybrid blandbox is a superduper Camry hybrid...so Lexus has two SuperCamrys...nice.
MB doesn't need to fight for the NA market, as it utterly destroys Lexus virtually everywhere else on the planet.
That is correct, but that doesn't give me any hope that the Toyota haters here will ever get it right, given they don't really care about factual accuracy.
LOL at that, but it's probably $5995 due at lease signing in very, very small print.
I guess I must be thick. How can a lower lease payment on a comparably priced vehicle be a bad thing? It looks to me like all things being equal at the start, and equal time and mileage, the lower the monthly lease the higher the quality of the vehicle. To me it means when the lease is up the manufacturer expects the value to be higher. I am trying to be logical and cannot find any logic to the argument that somehow a Mercedes with a lower monthly lease is a bad thing.
So what does the HS give apart from a loaded Camry or Prius, other than a badge and a coddling dealer experience? Looks like the market hasn't exactly fallen in love with it, bodes poorly for the hard on the eyes CT. Looks like the swoopy L is having to do some kissing to get people to buy the aging (IS) or unappreciated (HS).
With the profit margins MB has almost eternally earned from the highline cars, this is easily affordable. I bet the insane profits from S and SL cars can aid in incentives for the entire range. The brand isn't exactly running in the red, all while offering arguably the most diverse single-marque lineup in the world.
Incentives are a double-edged sword - you gain short-term sales, but resale value drop, because used models also lose value (since people cross-shop new).
Mercedes' poor ALG showing proves that they relied a little too much on incentives.
Conversely, Subaru did very well. They've kept a lid on incentives, especially cash back, and now more than half the models in the lineup have 5-star resale.
It wasn't easy, but I did get you to look beyond the monthly lease payment. Next up, lease factors and residuals. Let me know when you are ready, but take all the time you need.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Well, it should be a little nicer inside for its size vs price. And one can't deny that the market hasn't fallen in love with it - the uber-bland and even kind of awkward design being at least part of the reason. Not a home run.
Is the ALG showing because of incentives or because of less secondary market demand for cars which are almost guaranteed to be more expensive to maintain than their blander counterparts? I think there's more at play here than too many off-lease cars in the marketplace.
Interestingly, the only Benz to earn more than 3 stars is the Sprinter, and many Benzes score very poorly.
If you want 5 star resale rating you won't buy a Toyota or Lexus. Yes Sprinter has good resale. I bought a 2006 Sprinter RV and paid out the door $59k cash. I sold it a little over a year later for $55k cash. Try that with a Lexus or Toyota any model. My 2007 Sequoia would probably get an offer in trade of about 45% or MSRP. So if this whole argument is about resale values. Toyota and Lexus are not that great. The only real Lexus the LS460 only gets a 3 Star. Is that supposed to impress someone that buys new every 3 years and wants a decent trade-in? I guess if I want a good resale I should get a Golf or Mini Cooper. I test drove a Subaru and was not in the least bit impressed.
Kia more than held its own with 58% of Kia owners buying another Kia, a fantastic result for a company that doesn't even have a full lineup (no pickups).
Incredible, really.
Thanks for cleanin' up my slop on those Kia stats, man. Was my mind someplace else? Really good to see when you consider that I knew this stuff about a decade ago, but most of the rest of America was popping Kia in to the Yugo brigade.
Anyone for a large, ugly SUV or pick-em-up truck from a domestic manufacturer? :shades:
If you want to be a leaser, you can be like this pretentious girl at work who leases a new red C300 for around $539 a month! Yikes! That's more than the monthly payment was on my Cadillac DTS Performance! She also has the $2,500 designer handbag to go with it. Ironically, she's 28 and still lives in her parents' basement. Shoot, if I still lived at home, I could buy a new Cadillac every year for cash!
Ashton Kutcher bought one of those beauties and won the heart of Demi Moore. His Eco nut buddies in Hollywood were not that impressed. He should have just run over their wimpy Prii and got the last laugh.
Possibly, but believe it or not, if the owner pulled a heavy car or toy trailer or RV with it and did a lot of miles, I bet it gets as good or close to the FE as any of the big three diesel p/u trucks. Especially if it was geared appropriately. And would lose less road speed in the mtns while doing it.
What is that thing, an Intl of some sort? Or does a co start off with an Intl cab and rework it?
I think a luxury hybrid is a tough sell, because they can't match the MPG numbers of the Prius. The HS has the bigger engine, too.
To be fair, I doubt the Lincoln MKX hybrid will do any better.
The CT200h may stand a better chance since it uses the smaller displacement engine.
And it's not like the A3 is setting sales records. Not to mention, people here think the CT200h is too derivative of Toyotas, even though it's not, but what about the A3? It's just a Golf. Even the Quattro is fake Quattro - it gets VW's Haldex, not Audi's Torsen.
If anything, the HS differentiates itself more than the MKX hybrid, and the CT differentiates itself much more than the A3 compared to platform mates.
I'm not sure what RV resale has to do with anything...
I was just showing how Lexus cars beat Mercedes. Large luxury sedans have always fared poorly.
fintail may be on to something, though. They can dump C-classes at a loss, and with a better-than-average retention rate, hope that the customer buys an E-class next time, hopefully not at a loss.
It could work, but it does damage residual values.
As far as luxury hybrids. They are for the wealthy that want to look green and not give up any of the opulence. You mentioned the A3 TDI being on the Golf platform. I would say that is a good thing. The Golf did get a 5 Star on resale link you posted. And the A3 with its slightly more luxurious add-ons does not give up the 50 MPG capability shared with the Golf and Jetta TDI. Or even better if you want to be a hypermiler in style. Try that with that dumb Lexus LS600h. It does not get any better mileage than the non hybrid out on the highway. My favorite LS600h story was Lexus flying one of them to the supposedly Green Paul McCartney. They put it on a 747 cargo flight that Spewed more GHG than a lifetime of driving a regular gas engine car.
I was just showing how Lexus cars beat Mercedes. Large luxury sedans have always fared poorly.
That is true. One of the offers I got when I was selling the Sprinter RV was a 6 year old S600 Mercedes. I believe it was a 2000 model. They offered me $45k cash and the Mercedes. Fintail advised against the V12 MB. Too high cost to maintain. I would have looked cool in that big tuna boat. That was a lot of loss on their part.
I am sure there are a few people who would use such a thing for a legit purpose, but most would be used to cruise between a mall and an over-leveraged suburban tract house by someone swilling a latte and texting while they drive. Like an average H2 driver, only uglier...should require special licensing standards to drive it.
That Conquest will be limited in production and gigantic in price, so in this economy we shouldn't have to worry about being t-boned by them anyway.
Or simply, it's too much blandness for the money - making an ES look exciting. Small, expensive...tough sell indeed.
In what ways is the CT differentiated more than the A3? Or the HS? If an A3 is just a golf then an ES is just a Camry and a HS is just a Avensis, right? And the CT is just awkward.
want to look green and not give up any of the opulence
Agreed.
A3 TDI being on the Golf platform. I would say that is a good thing
Sure, but then why not just get a Golf? They're already very nice inside, what do you gain with an A3? The badge?
Remember, this was a counterpoint to the claim that the HS and CT are "just a fancy Prius". Isn't the A3 "just a fancy Golf"? More so than the Lexus models that were being criticized.
It might work better than leasing IS at a smaller loss, but with no E-class competitor to move up to (looking at sales figures, very few people are moving up to a GS).
MB sales continue to rise in the US and have for some time, while the company reaps profits so whatever strategy they've used, it is working.
Higher in one market anyway, a virtually invisible brand in many others.
I am not trying to discredit you (although I still can't understand why anyone would defend Lexus)...I just want more info about this ALG info that we are supposed to believe.
What "source" do you want to "back up"? Please be specific.
The CXT and Conquest just follow the American tradition of bigger is better. I remember all through the 50s and 60s when each model got to be a bigger boat. Same goes for the Asian imports. Look at the dimensions of a 1990 CamCord compared to the latest. For me the H2 was not practical. It does not have as much room as my Sequoia. Which was very nice on our cross country trip. The Sequoia was a one upsmanship on the competition. The HP wars are even more ridiculous. Parking the Sequoia is a challenge in many places. I cannot imagine parking a Conquest anywhere that does not provide motorhome parking. By the way a Mercedes S class is 3 inches longer than my Sequoia. The "S" is a real Behemoth.
It might work better than leasing IS at a smaller loss, but with no E-class competitor to move up to (looking at sales figures, very few people are moving up to a GS).
OK, not to nit-pick, but you're going by a TV commercial, remember? I give you the benefit of the doubt, but you question me even when I do list a source you can access easily?
So, I'll be specific...
What are the complete lease terms of that IS you see on TV? How much due at signing? A bunch, I'm sure.
How do you know for a fact Lexus loses money? I showed that Benz was leasing a car that costs more for less money with similar terms, from the same web site, at least. You are making far more assumptions than I am.
Then you go on to assume the Lexus IS buyers has to buy a GS next, why? You yourself say the IS is not that sporty. They could be buying an ES or an RX, I'm sure that's the case quite often. Conversely, a C-class buyer doesn't necessarily buy an E-class next, it could be an ML or even another C.
Very few people may be moving up to a GS, but *very many* Lexus buyers come back to another Lexus, a higher rate than Mercedes enjoys.
How well has the Lexus LS460h sold? I spotted one in traffic the other day. For a hybrid, I don't believe it delivers much better MPG than a regular ICE LS460: around 20 MPG.
Do they still have the self-parking option on the LS460? I haven't seen that feature advertised in some time. I don't know if I could trust that system as the car aged. I'd be afraid the system would go haywire and smash the vehicles in front and back of it trying to parallel park and destroy the Lexus itself in the process.
Some features seem to come and go. Anybody recall 4-wheel steering on the Honda Prelude and, more recently, Chevrolet and GMC trucks. I don't see that feature hyped anymore as well.
Doesn't Ford offer that on some affordable cars? Was it Ford or someone else?
Any how, the flagship LS hybrid's job is to make Hollywood happy and get attention. Getting on Oprah is a major coup, because 100 million women want one the next day.
The other day, in another thread, we asked what cars you'd buy if $100k dropped on your lap, and you had to spend it all. My wife was right next to me, and being far from a car enthusiast, first thing that came to her head was "that Lexus that parked itself on Oprah".
I think I have seen exactly one in person in my lifetime. It's what I call a faux hybrid - no real fuel efficiency gains, but it does add some power from unusual sources, at a huge markup to boot. Maybe something for techies with money to burn, but a laugh as a green car.
And the self-parking thing...if one feature could sum up a brand.
Where was I questioning you personally? All I see is 3 vs 4 stars...that could mean something like (random numbers) 50% vs 54% or something similar, maybe not a gigantic difference.
I'll keep an eye out for that sweetheart lease ad just for you
How do we know that MB is losing money? It might be making less per lowline sale, but the rest of the healthy sales of the brand more than make up for it.
What else would IS buyers upgrade to? Is an ES really even an upgrade? GS isn't sporty either, so a buyer who actually likes to drive wouldn't go there either. What are percentages of repeat buyers among the respective brands, in global sales?
Comments
Now the CT200H will use the same platform, WITH the Prius drivetrain, modified to be "sporty" like the tC is on the same platform. The CT200 will be the 5-door version of the 250H, only with a downgraded engine. And still priced at $31,5. LOL!
I love how they continue to compare it to the A3 TDI, which is similarly priced, but almost 2 seconds quicker to 60 and without a CVT to tolerate.
Don't see either of these models generating waiting lists.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But being the devil's advocate for the iso-tank L must be fun anyway (emotorcons aren't working)
My bad, HS hybrid blandbox is a superduper Camry hybrid...so Lexus has two SuperCamrys...nice.
MB doesn't need to fight for the NA market, as it utterly destroys Lexus virtually everywhere else on the planet.
LOL at that, but it's probably $5995 due at lease signing in very, very small print.
Not quite that, either. It uses the Camry's [hybrid] drivetrain but a different chassis.
I guess I must be thick. How can a lower lease payment on a comparably priced vehicle be a bad thing? It looks to me like all things being equal at the start, and equal time and mileage, the lower the monthly lease the higher the quality of the vehicle. To me it means when the lease is up the manufacturer expects the value to be higher. I am trying to be logical and cannot find any logic to the argument that somehow a Mercedes with a lower monthly lease is a bad thing.
https://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx
Interestingly, the only Benz to earn more than 3 stars is the Sprinter, and many Benzes score very poorly.
Mercedes can use incentives to reduce the depreciation during a lease term, and that's just what they're doing.
So what does the HS give apart from a loaded Camry or Prius, other than a badge and a coddling dealer experience? Looks like the market hasn't exactly fallen in love with it, bodes poorly for the hard on the eyes CT. Looks like the swoopy L is having to do some kissing to get people to buy the aging (IS) or unappreciated (HS).
Does Lexus not use incentives?
My college roommate's wife has a Camry hybrid and it's decent, but not the same ambience. Not all leather is created equal.
I think Lexus has kept them under control.
Incentives are a double-edged sword - you gain short-term sales, but resale value drop, because used models also lose value (since people cross-shop new).
Mercedes' poor ALG showing proves that they relied a little too much on incentives.
Conversely, Subaru did very well. They've kept a lid on incentives, especially cash back, and now more than half the models in the lineup have 5-star resale.
Next up, lease factors and residuals.
Let me know when you are ready, but take all the time you need.
If you want 5 star resale rating you won't buy a Toyota or Lexus. Yes Sprinter has good resale. I bought a 2006 Sprinter RV and paid out the door $59k cash. I sold it a little over a year later for $55k cash. Try that with a Lexus or Toyota any model. My 2007 Sequoia would probably get an offer in trade of about 45% or MSRP. So if this whole argument is about resale values. Toyota and Lexus are not that great. The only real Lexus the LS460 only gets a 3 Star. Is that supposed to impress someone that buys new every 3 years and wants a decent trade-in? I guess if I want a good resale I should get a Golf or Mini Cooper. I test drove a Subaru and was not in the least bit impressed.
Incredible, really.
Thanks for cleanin' up my slop on those Kia stats, man. Was my mind someplace else? Really good to see when you consider that I knew this stuff about a decade ago, but most of the rest of America was popping Kia in to the Yugo brigade.
Anyone for a large, ugly SUV or pick-em-up truck from a domestic manufacturer? :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'm leaning toward a new Conquest, a real man's SUV.....
No wimpy Hummer's for this kid...
What is that thing, an Intl of some sort? Or does a co start off with an Intl cab and rework it?
To be fair, I doubt the Lincoln MKX hybrid will do any better.
The CT200h may stand a better chance since it uses the smaller displacement engine.
And it's not like the A3 is setting sales records. Not to mention, people here think the CT200h is too derivative of Toyotas, even though it's not, but what about the A3? It's just a Golf. Even the Quattro is fake Quattro - it gets VW's Haldex, not Audi's Torsen.
If anything, the HS differentiates itself more than the MKX hybrid, and the CT differentiates itself much more than the A3 compared to platform mates.
Simple answer - incentives.
I was just showing how Lexus cars beat Mercedes. Large luxury sedans have always fared poorly.
fintail may be on to something, though. They can dump C-classes at a loss, and with a better-than-average retention rate, hope that the customer buys an E-class next time, hopefully not at a loss.
It could work, but it does damage residual values.
That is true. One of the offers I got when I was selling the Sprinter RV was a 6 year old S600 Mercedes. I believe it was a 2000 model. They offered me $45k cash and the Mercedes. Fintail advised against the V12 MB. Too high cost to maintain. I would have looked cool in that big tuna boat. That was a lot of loss on their part.
That Conquest will be limited in production and gigantic in price, so in this economy we shouldn't have to worry about being t-boned by them anyway.
In what ways is the CT differentiated more than the A3? Or the HS? If an A3 is just a golf then an ES is just a Camry and a HS is just a Avensis, right? And the CT is just awkward.
Agreed.
A3 TDI being on the Golf platform. I would say that is a good thing
Sure, but then why not just get a Golf? They're already very nice inside, what do you gain with an A3? The badge?
Remember, this was a counterpoint to the claim that the HS and CT are "just a fancy Prius". Isn't the A3 "just a fancy Golf"? More so than the Lexus models that were being criticized.
Yes, even since the last time I posted that link.
MB sales continue to rise in the US and have for some time, while the company reaps profits so whatever strategy they've used, it is working.
Can you provide data to the contrary? You keep asking me for ALG details, yet you make claims with no sources at all to back them up.
I am not trying to discredit you (although I still can't understand why anyone would defend Lexus)...I just want more info about this ALG info that we are supposed to believe.
What "source" do you want to "back up"? Please be specific.
OK, not to nit-pick, but you're going by a TV commercial, remember? I give you the benefit of the doubt, but you question me even when I do list a source you can access easily?
So, I'll be specific...
What are the complete lease terms of that IS you see on TV? How much due at signing? A bunch, I'm sure.
How do you know for a fact Lexus loses money? I showed that Benz was leasing a car that costs more for less money with similar terms, from the same web site, at least. You are making far more assumptions than I am.
Then you go on to assume the Lexus IS buyers has to buy a GS next, why? You yourself say the IS is not that sporty. They could be buying an ES or an RX, I'm sure that's the case quite often. Conversely, a C-class buyer doesn't necessarily buy an E-class next, it could be an ML or even another C.
Very few people may be moving up to a GS, but *very many* Lexus buyers come back to another Lexus, a higher rate than Mercedes enjoys.
In a surprise twist, I'll also commend Mercedes on making their hybrid S-class the most affordable model.
As opposed to Lexus, who charges about $45 grand more than the base model for their Hybrid Lexus Hybrid LS 600l hybrid HSD hybrid.
Sales will be limited, of course. It could add value as a halo/flagship model, however. Just look at all the publicity it got parking itself on Oprah.
Some features seem to come and go. Anybody recall 4-wheel steering on the Honda Prelude and, more recently, Chevrolet and GMC trucks. I don't see that feature hyped anymore as well.
Doesn't Ford offer that on some affordable cars? Was it Ford or someone else?
Any how, the flagship LS hybrid's job is to make Hollywood happy and get attention. Getting on Oprah is a major coup, because 100 million women want one the next day.
The other day, in another thread, we asked what cars you'd buy if $100k dropped on your lap, and you had to spend it all. My wife was right next to me, and being far from a car enthusiast, first thing that came to her head was "that Lexus that parked itself on Oprah".
And the self-parking thing...if one feature could sum up a brand.
I'll keep an eye out for that sweetheart lease ad just for you
How do we know that MB is losing money? It might be making less per lowline sale, but the rest of the healthy sales of the brand more than make up for it.
What else would IS buyers upgrade to? Is an ES really even an upgrade? GS isn't sporty either, so a buyer who actually likes to drive wouldn't go there either. What are percentages of repeat buyers among the respective brands, in global sales?
Nothing is lazier than not being able to park.