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Comments
KBB surveys usually are, but that study looked at most researched vehicles, so it was a snapshot of the present day, not the past. Perhaps even future purchases.
JDP also looked at what brands are being avoided today, also present, though also for future purchases.
I do agree that trends are important. I saw Hyundai improving 5 years ago and kept telling people, few believed me.
The whole luxury market is going to H*** in a handbasket. Hard to tell any difference except on the window sticker and the service bill.
Personally I think a person is nuts to buy an ES350 when you can get the top of the line Camry for $1000s less and not have to put up with the Lexus dealership ripping you off. They all serve coffee and donuts. $1000 oil changes are only for those with more money than brains.
Sort of...BMW loses their identity the further they go from being Ultimate Driving Machines. Ultimate Profit Appliances?
At least they still give you free service for 4 years.
A person in the market for an ES (not you, clearly) cares about things like higher quality materials, softer-touch surfaces, velvet lining in all the cubbies, and exclusive tech features, not to mention better pampering from the dealer. Plus the ES is assembled in Japan, and quality and reliability surveys show a distinct advantage for the Lexus.
You may not care, but ES buyers do, is my point.
If I had to pick a strippo IS or a CT, I would seriously look at the CT just for the novelty.
4 banger BMWs have existed in other markets for ages - we even had them not terribly long ago. I can deal with that, esp if diesel. FWD on the other hand...bad idea.
My mocking of stereotypical RX (and to be fair, their Euro and domestic counterparts) drivers isn't completely about what they drive, but the demographic itself. I live in ground zero for it in my entire region, and it gets kind of tiresome.
Regarding driving enjoyment...they likely wouldn't know it anyway. The kind of people who go nuts during turbulence on a flight.
I agree, I still get regretful every time I see someone gassing up a 318ti - those were such fun cars as were the Z3s with the 4-cylinder. I should have picked up one of those 318ti's and kept it for 20 years, repair costs be darned! :-P
I would be looking forward to the return of light, fun 4-cylinder BMWs, except that I think they have said those will all be FWD models. FWD BMW? Forget it. They already have Mini, with its expanded line-up. No need to ALSO offer FWDers in the BMW lineup.
As for the CT200, it is a Prius with a proper handling package and a Lexus badge (and a fuel economy reduction to 42 mpg combined). At the proposed price of $29K, I suppose they may sell a few. I might be slightly interested if it had anything besides the CVT - its handling is supposed to be superlative. Of course, that makes an odd contrast with its 0-60 time of 10.5 seconds.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sounds just like my Toyota Avalon....everyone wants me to drive them around in it, no 'pure' driving experience at all, just a quiet cushy smooth ride.
CT isn't nearly as nerdy looking as the Prius (although not a beauty queen)...gets props right there. A loaded Prius can cost the same, too. I'd choose the coddling dealer.
Agree on the 318ti, I think they even had a 316 for sale in Brazil for a while there. But FWD? And does BMW really need a car smaller than the already-tiny 1 series?
Ah, so the X3 and GLK as well, then?
Around here the trophy wives seem to prefer the MDX, ironically a nice driver for its class.
All of those sell well around me, XC60 and RX too.
My area prefers Escalade and Denali with X5 and GL running 3rd and 4th. Rarely see an RX up here in the hills. Too small for a family vehicle. Very conservative family area. Plus lots of wealthy Casino Indians. They seem to prefer the X5 and Escalades.
I see a bunch of those, too. Not as many Escalades since the economy tanked, but the X5, ML, seem more recession-proof for some reason. Old money?
I take my kid to the flag football league games and we're the poor folks, LOL.
I too live in a very affluent area and see all of those every day. A few still like an Escalade or similar large one (Range Rover and X5-6 are good [non-permissible content removed] vehicles of choice), but the soft roaders still reign supreme - and no doubt the RX outsells them all.
Although I have to say, I might prefer this money living alongside me to the dirty political stuff back east :shades:
Yeah, 316 is still available in Europe...but isn't considered to be luxurious at all, not even entry level. 1er is even lower...too bad we don't get that in 3 and 5 door, they are kind of cool.
For instance, the Camry I test drove had much more road and wind noise, sloppier handling, when compared ONLY to the ES of course, had much less control on the float/wallow at highway speeds, potholes, dips, etc, had many gaps and misaligned and cheap looking interior panels and had numerous rattles throughout the cabin while driving. The ES had no rattles, fit/finish was excellent, no panel gaps, etc, my back did not get sore sitting in the seats of the ES where in the Camry they did, much more comfortable rear seat and the floating/wallow of the suspension was much more controlled in the ES compared to the Camry. Not just the interior material but the detail of every little thing in the ES was world's better than the Camry.
Now, I never went with either, b/c both do not jive with my driving style and likes but why don't you go test drive each car back to back and get a more informed opinion. This Japanese luxury vehicles are rebadged mainstreams gets old and I find people who keep making those statements never go and test drive the vehicles they are criticizing back to back. If you did, you would see how much of a difference there are being the Japanese luxury and Japanese mainstream divisions. I should know b/c I've had cars from both.
You then have to say the same thing about Audi being rebadged/overpriced VW's, Cadillac's are rebadged/overpriced Buick's/Chevy's, Lincoln's rebadged/overpriced Ford's and so on. Heck, even almost all the BMW's and MB's sold here are not considered luxury over in Europe so by some people's thinking there is virtually nothing to choose from when it comes to luxury vehicles and unless your super rich!
The camry is pretty much a rattling cheap mess with cheap seats and lack of quality in parts as well as fit and finish--DESPITE the way toyota has presented it through the years as a quality epitome of automotive quality.
Didn't all those buyers deserve to get the better fit and quality that toyota put into the similar and related vehicle, the ES?
Until the exposé of toyota's parts quality problems as well as engineering in the crashes, including the related ES350, many people thought they were buying quality rather than beancounter minimized quality.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I did cross shop the GX470 and LX470 with the Toyota Sequoia. I did not like the GX at all and would have bought the LX but for a flaw in the pearl white paint the salesman said could be touched up. They were deep discounting the LX in late 2007. I did like the LX though it is smaller than the Sequoia I bought way under invoice. I probably should have bit the bullet and bought the GL320 CDI. I just did not like the way the Mercedes 7 speed shifted down when you let off the accelerator. I do not test drive vehicles I have no intention of buying. I may sit in them while waiting in the showroom. The last non SUV/PU/RV I bought was the 2005 Passat TDI. And have no intention of ever owning another sedan. If it was a Lexus which is highly unlikely, it would be a real luxury car such as the LS460.
By 2007 Toyota was economizing to sell their upscale versions built by Lexus. The ES350 is a prime example. Oh if you want a quiet ride in a car go to the Lexus store. That was not the case 10 years ago when a top of the line Camry was very close to the rebadged Lexus model. It seems to be working. Lexus sales are up and Toyota sales are on the decline.
Honda seems to be doing the same thing. The 2010 Accord I rented for 2 weeks in Indiana was a real POC. Less than 20k miles and it was noisy out on the highway. I was supposed to get an Altima, but they had sold it and gave me the Accord in its place. Turned me off on Honda for another decade or so. Probably never buy one.
The lackluster handling and floaty ride was what did it in for me with the Camry and ES because I like a ride that gives a little bit of feedback and has moderate to crisp handling capability. I tend to drive on the more spirited side rather than riding in my couch side, thus I have tended to gravitate toward Audi, Acura (before the current beak era) Infiniti, and BMW.
Problem is, and I think for many on here who want any kind of fun factor in their vehicles when driving, Toyota and Lexus currently do not satisfy that, at least they don't for me. The IS350 comes probably the closest, but the fact is, its small, cramped, so-so handling, etc, and there are offerings from the other Japanese and German makes that do those things better. Heck, even a 3-Series felt bigger when I was inside it then the IS.
It will be interesting to see what Lexus does with the IS and ES since they are due for redesigns very soon. If they can improve the handling/ride, and make the IS bigger in the next generation, I might have to check that out but other than that, I don't see myself looking at them anytime soon. Toyota on the other hand needs to get their act together with quality and fit/finish. They went from the top of that category pre 2002 to the bottom since then. Like you pointed out, I can not believe the difference in quality, fit and finish, refinement, etc their is between my friend's Camry's who are 10-14 years old and the current one. The 8th Gen next year has to be a hit out of the ball park by Toyota on all fronts if they ever want to get back on top.
Like I said early, based on my test drives on them, I feel the difference is enough to justify the additional cost of the Lexus over the Toyota and I can understand why I see so many on the road, mostly by middle aged and senior's mind you.
For one thing, fit & finish are vastly better in the ES than in the Camry. For another, the seats are excellent - better than any other Japanese car that I've driven or ridden in.
It's a big, nose-heavy FWD boulevard cruiser that's happiest when it's cruising the Interstates, but it really doesn't pretend to be anything more than that.
My mother would love one anyway, if I came into some money and bought her a new ES, she'd be in heaven. She'd never treat herself - likes to pay cash for cars, and the Camry is about as rich as she'll get.
But my point is...if you compare that situation to Toyota's today, there is barely any comparison at all. Many/most people are surviving any crashes that either are or not, driver error in these reported UA crashes, yet GM were burning people to a crisp. THE WHOLE TIME, KNOWING WHAT THE CURE WAS! And here we are over two decades later, not only have we forgotten and forgiven them (some of us, not all) but we have given them bail-out money!!
And here we are praising Ford for not asking for bail-out, but let us not forget that they too sold many Pintos that also roasted TO DEATH, our loved ones, knowing the percentage/incident ratio was literally going to kill x number of people. They too practiced calculated risk and played the numbers game. And we forgave them too.
So I don't think this is going to hurt Toyota all that much in years to come. Especially if they don't keep trying to cheap out with their cars lately. (it started when? around 08 when Camrys and others paint started to chip off, and a bunch of other niggling things) They have been pulling a 'Hyundai' I call it. Hyundai got a foot in, but started to cheap out too soon and it almost killed them. They realized they had to input the content and engineering if they are to keep being recognized in favourable light. Hyundai's competency has really only been in recent years if you ask me... I'd say the last only 5 or so. I don't doubt they have picked up some prev Toyota customers lately.
I just want toyota to get it together and start wrecking everyone again.
For a while there George Tenet was my neighbor. Sucked having Secret Service driving around the block constantly.
One time there was a beater Chevy Cavalier driving around constantly so we got suspicious and called the cops - it was an agent who had his car in the shop! LOL
They usually drove Suburbans or Crown Vics.
Top Gear was hyper-critical of the 1 series 5 door they tested. I think they're too dorky looking, tall and narrow. Even the 1 series M has that oddly proportioned green house.
Keep in mind that much of the decline comes from 2 things:
Scion, much more so than Toyota. We've already discussed why, and even reached a rare concensus on that one.
Fleet sale reductions.
Both are low margin sales, while Lexus is what generates profits.
I thought about that, and then asked, why are they so much more successful than Infiniti?
Look at the G37 coupe, sedan, both RWD and offering the right options. The M sedan, the (now defuct) Q flagship. Even the crossovers are sporty for their classes.
So why do Infiniti sales struggle to reach even half of Lexus?
In reality they're far more comparable to Lexus - 2nd brand from a Japanese manufacturer, founded around the same time period.
Grab a bagel, and discuss...
Remember, they have a sport oriented focus, which we found out from the mass US population, doesn't float their boat. The majority likes comfort couches to ride on. If not, Toyota, Honda, Lexus, and Mercedes would not sell so many plain-jane, lack of fun vehicles, but they do. BMW is the exemption to this trend but I think most of their sales are due to brand loyalty and reputation rather then solely the product.
I think you'll see Infiniti expand over time to some non-sport oriented, or at least less sport oriented models, like the new G25 offering for instance that will attract more entry-level buyers. I know Infiniti abandoned FWD platforms years ago and was solely going to be RWD, but after the talk that BMW might add FWD and the fact that in 2016 CAFE standards will be in effect, you might even see Infiniti bring 1 or 2 FWD models in several years.
But it can't be just about product offerings b/c Audi offers a more well rounded product offering then Infiniti and Infiniti typically outsells them each month by several hundred to a thousand units.
Still - the new products have been out a decade now, where's the payoff?
I'd pick a G or an M over any sedan in the Lexus lineup.
I think the 1er coupe is the oddest looking of the bunch. However, given the marketing aims of the brand on this continent, we'll never see the more utilitarian siblings.
Lexus would call that pampering, but it's all a matter of perspective, eh?
annoying exhaust note
Gotta agree on that. That V6 may have been stretched beyond its power limits, as recent ones sound like strangled mongooses. No animals were harmed in the writing of this post.
If we see AMG powertrain in future Infiniti products, as it rumored, that could certainly address the cachet aspect.
Sorry but the Volt is the new, even-more-geeky Geek Mobile. Saying that is insulting the very customers you're hoping to attract.
That guy needs to open up a can of Shut Up.
Although I will say, the local Lexus dealer just down the road from me has an amazing looking service department - huge and efficient looking. The local MB and BMW dealers are in 30-40 year old buildings and don't have such a layout as the 3 year old Lexus building.
I saw a M56 the other day that sounded kind of sickly too. Reminds me of the hoary drone from the old GM 3.1 and similar engines. If I want nice exhaust tuning, I have to say the Germans know how to do it.
I wonder how any future AMG relations would be tuned as not to detract from the main brand - AMG of course hasn't been independent for many years.
That's HILARIOUS, my high school girl friend had a Chevy Beretta and the sound also reminds me of that "tuned" V6.
Though to be fair, that sounded like a mongoose gargling. The Pontiacs were the worst. Baseball cards in bicycle spokes sounded more like a V8.
For exhaust tuning, I gotta give it to the V8 muscle car class. Hard to beat.
Jim Coleman Lexus is merely average in comparison.
The payoff for us consumers has been, sportier, high performance products, class competitive interiors, quality, and now resale value. I think Infiniti just took ALG resale value award this year from Acura who had it the last two.
It takes time, you seem to want it to happen with just the snap of a finger and it doesn't work that way. Heck, it took BMW and MB decades to gain their reputation in this country to what it is now. Infiniti is not going to be any different. 8 years is not that long considering especially where Infiniti was just those short 8 years ago.
It will be interesting to see what Mercedes gives to Infiniti in regards to engines. I'm hoping the new partnership will allow Infiniti to get more refined and quieter engines into their vehicles thus adding on to the refinement factor.
Remember too, Infiniti is just in the baby steps of founding their IPL to compete with the M, F, and S lines of the other manufacturers. But its just being created and it will take years of fine tuning and making sure its just right till it competes effectively with those long standing performance lines by BMW, Audi, and Lexus.
What really is helping Infiniti at this point is there very high resale value and low rate of depreciation compared to the Germans and other marques. I do know there are some refinement and issues with the 7spd Auto that Infiniti is currently working with Mercedes to work out on the next gen G sedan and future model years.
The Lexus dealer here is a modern building with dopey trendy landscaping - palm trees etc, but it is on a hillside, so the lower level is all shop, it is huge. I can't find a good pic of it. It also has cool garage doors that open in what seems like a fraction of a second.
The Infiniti tune seems to have too much of a drone, even the V8 seems to have it. It's almost artificial sounding. If there really is to be any joint engine design with AMG, I can guarantee they will address that first.
Also, make the FX look less like a catfish.
I wonder what Lexus calls its design language...oh yeah, the "finesse" moniker. Amusing.
Acura is "Ugly Beaks" IIRC.
Though the Germans haven't done any better. BMW's Bangled styling is now infamous, and updates are conservative at best. The 5 series GT and X6 are downright ugly - only the ZDX compares.
Benz and Audi are not bad, but both had designs peak about a generation ago.
IMHO Audi had it nailed down about 5 years ago, but they had to update their designs, and there was nowhere to go but down.
The consistent blandness of Lexus probably hits a bullseye to the target market.