I'm not surprised with the Flex numbers. I don't think the general population shares our opinion on the design.
I like the looks of the Flex. I think it is a bit long and low for my needs. It does not get great mileage either. So it would not be a good Sequoia swap for me. That Kia with realistic slider door might be real nice.
You could be right about maintenance since the type of buyer is probably different, now. If someone was willing to pay more(less incentives), they are probably going to take care of it, too. That's not the case anymore.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Like I said, I live in the NOW, I don't fret abt what used to happen in the PAST. Especially matters that happen decades ago. Its a total waste of time.
For example, Hyundai today is widely recognised as a builder of good quality cars. Thats why their sales kept increasing and they keep getting bigger in major markets around the world.
Why keep thinking about their unhappy PAST ?
But its a fact that TODAY, toyota have MULTIPLE problems, some very serious like SUA. And the worse of all is its not because of their stupidity but because of their greed ! Cutting corners here and there. I am convinced that part of the reason for their electronic problems could be substandard parts supplied by suppliers squeezed by toyota.
And nothing is more telling than the fact that even the famously Japanese Nationalism cannot even stop Japanese suppliers from hating toyota because they are squeezed so badly. Read this :
Mind you, it takes LOTS of issues for Japanese to hate their biggest car maker toyota. Imagine how bad it must be for them to give up their Nationalism feelings for 100% Japanese run toyota.
I can tolerate a less smart automaker, but I don't have much patience for people, companies who get greedy and put consumer's lives at stake.
Like I said, comparing the problems that Nissan, Honda, Hyundai had TODAY with toyota is like comparing a man who had a previous stroke and risk having another stroke, God knows when, with another guy who had the FLU !
Those Honda throttle problems are a great MINORITY. Trust me, if toyota had so many big problems, recalls, imagine the number of minor problems that their cars suffer from.
Oh yes, have you found just one video, not made by any guy on youtube but an official major National News Channel report, that reports that Nissan, Honda and Hyundai's problems are similar to toyota ?
Because videos made by individuals could be just a toyota man rigging the video to discredit the competition, but videos made by a major News Channel report are another matter.
And I am convinced that even GM is better than toyota TODAY (OK, pls stop talking abt GM crap decades ago). Look at how highly regarded they are overseas TODAY :
Regardless of how each of us view China and the Chinese, I wonder how many among all of us here thinks that the Chinese are really dumb and does not know how to choose good quality cars. I for one never thinks that the Chinese are a nation of clueless people.
But VW is still a hard nut for GM to crack. Their market share in China is an awesome 16.6% of the highly competitive car market there. But GM still got 9.4%, and toyota is not even mentioned because their market share there is small. Even smaller than Hyundai and Nissan.
Well, jd often says VW quality leaves a lot to be desired, but strangely enough, each year, millions of Chinese car buyers seem to DISAGREE....Maybe jd should advertise more in the Chinese mass media.
Voting with the wallet for tens of thousands of hard earned pay check dollars is far more powerful than a jd power chart in my opinion. But hey, its not so bad, today, GM and Ford also have higher market share in the US than toyota.
My job is to help the remaining stragglers to keep up with the convoy, less they be picked off by toyota submarines !!!
I start to wonder, how much experience do you have using a computer or electronic gadgets ? Don't you realise that electronic gizmos, when they screw up, it can be highly unpredictable.
For example, when a gadget freezes, you try hard and cannot do anything. You got to reboot, or take off the battery and put it back again to do a real " forced " reboot. But other times, it appears to hang, and after waiting for a few minutes, strangely enough, the gadget resumes what its doing.
I have seen this a number of times already with my computer while doing tasks or surfing the web and with my cellular phone. Not to mention other electronic gizmos.
The woman's testimony only serves to strengthen my suspicion that toyota's electronic glitches are just like any other electronic glitches - HIGHLY UNPREDICTABLE. I am NOT surprised at all at what happened to her.
I am also convinced that even the toyota boys are still befuddled with whats going on with their electronics. Like what will happen if you bring your computer or gadget to the service department and ask them what happened.
Chances are they will say " I don't have a clue ! " Because these glitches often does not leave a trail of what has happened. After you reboot, everthings fine again. But unfortunately for people like Saylor, the reboot is sometimes a HARD BANG and crash that ends their lives.
And probably because they get squeezed real bad by toyota. I don't hear such cases happen often to Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, Ford. And they don't have a choice. If they don't do that, they lose toyota's business.
Its nice to be the manufacturer instead of the supplier. Squeeze them, and when they screw up, or FORCED to cut quality to match the price demanded, still got to make up for it otherwise lose the business.
Who pays the price and inconvenience of such events ? the CONSUMER !
Here's another of already several real life interviews abt toyota's SUA problems. Give me just one interview from a Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, Ford owner. You will be hard presssed to find just one.
Not isolated cases but common sienna defects. This is laughable as its more like a Korean car defect a decade ago. Its not as bad as SUA but still, this kind of simple thing happening really says a lot about toyota's manufacturing quality !
Look at this video. Again after seeing this kind of thing, it makes the quality of Hyundai or Kia TEN years ago EXCELLENT by comparison ! And worse, toyota waited and waited while customer's lives are gambled.
Bad as the quality of Korean cars more than a decade ago, I have never heard of a Korean car driver suffering a fate like this. And I bet that even a Chinese made car will never let its owner down like this !
Prove me wrong ! Show me just ONE video of a Chinese or Korean car or even American car with such a quality problem that results in the car SWIMMING in the river !
I like the idea of manufacturers offering free maintenance, because it makes sure consumers adhere to the recommended intervals for maintenance.
I honestly believe that's one reason BMW residuals are good. Even a 4-year old model would have been dealer maintained the whole time.
Toyota offers 2 years on some models, but IMHO that's not enough. I think Jaguar offers 5. You want 3 years at least, so that the first big service (usually 30,000 miles) is included.
Then again, I do my own maintenance, but I am far from the typical consumer.
In one breath you criticize Toyota for squeezing suppliers and cutting costs...
In the next you say Nissan is different.
Do you know Carlos Ghosn's nickname?
Le Cost Cutter
Nissan has its own set of problems, just as any manufacturer does. Toyota's have been blown way out of proportion by a mainstream media that simply doesn't understand cars.
Everyone is cutting costs. Even VW does now, did you notice the new Jetta gets a torsion beam rear suspsension and a 115hp 2.slow engine?
That's from last century. The engines succeptible to sludge were 2 full generations ago.
Voting with the wallet for tens of thousands of hard earned pay check dollars is far more powerful than a jd power chart in my opinion
Then please explain why the Camry is still the best selling car in America, and Toyota the best selling nameplate, and Lexus the best selling luxury nameplate.
how much experience do you have using a computer or electronic gadgets ?
BS in Computer Science, MS in Information Systems, 20 year experience in troubleshooting and technical support.
It's all I do for a living.
I am skeptical because, from experience, I can assure you that the vast majority of problems I come across are at least in part user error. Technology is often the scape goat, they blame "technical difficulties" but usually it's really that they need more training or don't want to admit a mistake.
Good example - people come to me with a faulty BlackBerry. "I have no idea what happened, it just stopped working."
Well, RIM got smart, and added a little moisture sensor behind the back cover. If it gets wet it changes color.
I can't tell you how many times I've found the BlackBerry was wet, and that's the real reason it stopped working.
Then I get a vague confession, "yeah, it was raining hard, my jeans got wet, but I didn't think that was enough....blah blah blah".
Right.
We now carry insurance because this has SO OFTEN and I don't think anyone has ever confessed the whole truth.
Unfortunately we live in a culture where noone takes personal responsibility for their mistakes. Why more Toyota cases than others? Simple - they have a scape goat. So even the REALLY far-fetched stories like the 3-armed grandma are believed and make headlines in the press.
Don't believe me? I just took a photo, I'd be glad to send you a copy. A dozen wet BlackBerrys.
>have you found just one video, not made by any guy on youtube but an official major National News Channel report, that reports that Nissan, Honda and Hyundai's problems are similar to toyota ?
That would need to include the automaker trying to cover up the problems reported (not including the ones blocked at the dealer) where the NHSTA was kept in the dark somewhat since 2002.
I guess you never heard of Mitsubishi's hidden recall scandal?
It was much worse.
Edit: also remember the so called "Books of Knowledge" were given to a lawyer suing Toyota and he found nothing to support his case, and actually dropped his lawsuits.
The disgruntled worker who stole the documents and made that claim had to pay Toyota millions, including punitive damages.
>Like I said, I live in the NOW, I don't fret abt what used to happen in the PAST. Especially matters that happen decades ago. Its a total waste of time.
There's a pattern here. The posters supporting toyota wish to discuss only more recent flu-like problems. But that same poster wants to recall older problems from GM and other brands over in different forums.
While some purport to be in the middle, they take only the toyota- supporting side. Then things progress to personal attacks on the poster posters with whom they disagree, even though person attacks and talking about other posters in an identifiable manner are supposed to be against the rules for conduct here.
tlong said in an earlier post: all makers have problems. I think that's exactly my approach all along. The problem is getting the company and its supporters to admit their responsibility for how those are handled: is it by hiding the problems, misleading the NHSTA, blaming the customer, or attacking people pointing out the problems or the indicators thereof.
I like the idea of manufacturers offering free maintenance, because it makes sure consumers adhere to the recommended intervals for maintenance
I would think the manufacturer would pay for that. It is just good business. VW does it. My 2005 GMC got free maintenance via a coupon the dealer sent me in the mail at regular intervals. Not sure if that was GMC or the dealer. It only costs the dealer about 20 bucks to change the oil and filter. It is cheap insurance for the MFG. They can also do any upgrades when the vehicle is in their possession. I only used the Toyota dealer I bought from once. They charged way too much and did not even get my tires filled properly. Part of the reason Toyota dealers rate below average.
My dealer experience with Chevy, GMC, VW and Chrysler on my Sprinter RV was all better than with my Sequoia and Toyota. Toyota charges more for cheapo dino oil changes than Walmart charges for Mobil ONE. And my tires are all at the same pressure without being asked to check them.
I fully agree, except I'm not sure I'd let WalMart change my oil.
I was hesitant at first. I used them for the old Lexus and Ranger with good results. Cleaner engine, no spilled oil as with some dealers. I doubt the dealers get any higher caliber techs for oil changes than WalMart. Plus I get MobilOne for the price of 30 wt dino at Toyota. I did use VW for my Passat TDI. Even with $10 per qt oil it was cheaper than a Toyota oil change. I think some dealer service is over rated.
Lentz noted that, among loyal Toyota customers who purchased new vehicles last year, there was a higher loyalty rate among customers who had recall repairs performed than among those who did not
A Goodyear tire shop overtightened my Sienna's oil filter, and I vowed to do all my own oil changes from then on, even if it's free. The probably use power tools and could care less about torque specs.
I don't use the Toyota dealer for scheduled maintenance, though I'll admit they treated me very well (free car wash) when I had the tire carrier recall performed.
When I was in college, I (along with 2 other graduate assistants) assisted my Statistics instructor in a little “experiment” which I really think was an attempt on his part to demonstrate how “real world” influences can affect a statistical analysis of an issue. It wasn’t what anyone would call “scientific”, but it did demonstrate a valid result.
The day consisted of 3 separate “tests”, each one using a class of 25-30 undergraduate students.
All tests involved the use of several 2 liter bottles of a locally popular diet soft drink, given in three separate (and identified) cups, and which brand was hidden from the participants’ view. All responses were private (written on paper), and no discussion between students was allowed, except in test three.
On the first class, we gave each student three 4 oz cups of the soft drink and asked them to state which one of the three was different from the other two. We also told them that it was likely that all three were the same brand soft drink.
Almost 90% stated they could not tell any difference between the three cups.
On the second class, we gave out the same exact soft drink samples, but this time, we told them that one of the samples was definitely different than the other two, and we asked them to identify the “odd” cup (cups were labeled “a, b, and c”).
This time, over a little over half the class identified at least one difference, and the distribution between a, b and c was slightly weighted towards “a”. Around 40% stated they could not tell any difference.
On the third class, we once again handed out 3 samples to each student, and we told the students once again that one of the samples was definitely different than the other two, and asked them to identify it. This time, however, we allowed them to discuss the drink tastes for five minutes before submitting a response.
In the responses this time, well over 90% identified an “odd” cola, and over 75% of the responses identified “b” as the one.
What I learned from the exercise was that statistical results based upon human sensory perception and attitudes can be easily manipulated. Indeed, you see the very same process used in surveys today, with “pre-loaded” questions as an example.
In Toyota’s case, it shows that once people have an expectation of a problem, quite often they find one, whether it truly exist or not. Without someone being able to reproduce or absolutely identify the problem, no one can say with any certainty that a problem exists or not.
Back in college I took Psych 101 and we got extra credit for doing studies like that. I participated in a bunch of them.
Thanks for the free soda. LOL
Here's a simple experiment anyone can try in their group of friends, especially around men.
Take a quick survey and ask each one if he thinks he's a better-than-average driver. I bet 90% of them will say they are, if you take a big enough sample.
That is dealing with a different aspect of psychology. That's getting into the ego involvement of a person's self concept. Same thing occurs with people's defense of their preference of auto brands.
>On the third class, we once again handed out 3 samples to each student, and > 90% identified an “odd” cola, and over 75% of the responses identified “b” as the one
Was the variable of order of tasting the alphbetically-labelled cups tested? Was one group tasting "B" followed by "C" then "A," e.g. I realize the communication factor was a variable being tested, but I think there is more to be interesting in this experience along with the communication variable.
Very interesting. Does it apply to cars? There's a completely different aspect to communication and data-finding in re cars compared to real time tasting of cola samples.
>, you see the very same process used in surveys today, with “pre-loaded” questions as an example.
Indeed. Many polls do ask questions designed and arranged in an order to lead the target to a directed answer.
You wrote "Same thing occurs with people's defense of their preference of auto brands".
But think about it - the opposite is *FAR* more truthful!
People attack the brands they hate. That's the motive behind every Troll.
And yes, that includes the so-called "Toyota Fanboys" you allude to that don't really participate in this thread, but must have offended you in the past, as you seem to hold a major grudge against them.
In reference to your question, each participant was given all 3 cups simultaneously, and was allowed to self-determine the order of tasting.
But, as it relates to the topic of UA (which is really what we are discussing ), it demonstrates what behavior one sees when expectations have been altered.
A simple test to try: Take your car and have the alignment checked out . Have it corrected as necessary. Then , have some respected friends drive it say 16-20 people.
Tell the first half of them you just want to get an opinion of how they like your car before taking the drive, and tell the other half that you think the car is showing signs of pulling slightly to the left before taking the drive.
After the drive, ask each driver his opinion of the car and its driving characteristics. You will most likely find a higher number in the second group identifying an alignment problem as an issue.
I've noticed that a couple of people who participate in this thread & who consistently make anti-Toyota remarks also participate in a thread about what it means to buy American. In that other thread, they have expressed anti-import views & have even called for tariffs on all imported cars.
It displeases them that some of us prefer & buy import brands - even when those imports are built in U.S. factories.
So I have to wonder if it's possible for them to objectively discuss Toyota's problems. I suspect that they'd rather spin this into a more general diatribe aimed at all imports.
I won't mention their names. They know who they are.
To me, no manufacturer holds its customer's welfare over its own profits... that's just a fact of life in any large corporation today.
At the same time, before I accuse any entity of making corrupt products, I want a little more solid evidence than a few youtube videos and personal testimonies...
Comments
I like the looks of the Flex. I think it is a bit long and low for my needs. It does not get great mileage either. So it would not be a good Sequoia swap for me. That Kia with realistic slider door might be real nice.
Ford, Toyota did well, each with multiple wins.
Prius wins its class again with 38.9% repeat buyers, but that shows just how many former Prius owners could move up to a Prius V. Or a plug-in.
Of course it doesn't say how many bought an HS or Camry hybrid instead.
Forester's win does not surprise us - we're on our 2nd. :shades:
Well, guess what I just read a minute ago?
Dana to pay Toyota $25 million for truck frame warranty claims
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110112/OEM10/110119863/1424- #ixzz1ArRKa3M3
Nice to see a supplier take responsibility.
If someone was willing to pay more(less incentives), they are probably going to take care of it, too.
That's not the case anymore.
I disagree. At least they look significantly different. Not like the Acadia/Traverse/and two other rebadges, among others at GM.
For example, Hyundai today is widely recognised as a builder of good quality cars. Thats why their sales kept increasing and they keep getting bigger in major markets around the world.
Why keep thinking about their unhappy PAST ?
But its a fact that TODAY, toyota have MULTIPLE problems, some very serious like SUA. And the worse of all is its not because of their stupidity but because of their greed ! Cutting corners here and there. I am convinced that part of the reason for their electronic problems could be substandard parts supplied by suppliers squeezed by toyota.
And nothing is more telling than the fact that even the famously Japanese Nationalism cannot even stop Japanese suppliers from hating toyota because they are squeezed so badly. Read this :
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/business/global/24anger.html?_r=1
Mind you, it takes LOTS of issues for Japanese to hate their biggest car maker toyota. Imagine how bad it must be for them to give up their Nationalism feelings for 100% Japanese run toyota.
I can tolerate a less smart automaker, but I don't have much patience for people, companies who get greedy and put consumer's lives at stake.
Those Honda throttle problems are a great MINORITY. Trust me, if toyota had so many big problems, recalls, imagine the number of minor problems that their cars suffer from.
Oh yes, have you found just one video, not made by any guy on youtube but an official major National News Channel report, that reports that Nissan, Honda and Hyundai's problems are similar to toyota ?
Because videos made by individuals could be just a toyota man rigging the video to discredit the competition, but videos made by a major News Channel report are another matter.
I am still Right here waiting.....
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110110/RETAIL03/301109954/1- 199
Regardless of how each of us view China and the Chinese, I wonder how many among all of us here thinks that the Chinese are really dumb and does not know how to choose good quality cars. I for one never thinks that the Chinese are a nation of clueless people.
But VW is still a hard nut for GM to crack. Their market share in China is an awesome 16.6% of the highly competitive car market there. But GM still got 9.4%, and toyota is not even mentioned because their market share there is small. Even smaller than Hyundai and Nissan.
Well, jd often says VW quality leaves a lot to be desired, but strangely enough, each year, millions of Chinese car buyers seem to DISAGREE....Maybe jd should advertise more in the Chinese mass media.
Voting with the wallet for tens of thousands of hard earned pay check dollars is far more powerful than a jd power chart in my opinion. But hey, its not so bad, today, GM and Ford also have higher market share in the US than toyota.
My job is to help the remaining stragglers to keep up with the convoy, less they be picked off by toyota submarines !!!
For example, when a gadget freezes, you try hard and cannot do anything. You got to reboot, or take off the battery and put it back again to do a real " forced " reboot. But other times, it appears to hang, and after waiting for a few minutes, strangely enough, the gadget resumes what its doing.
I have seen this a number of times already with my computer while doing tasks or surfing the web and with my cellular phone. Not to mention other electronic gizmos.
The woman's testimony only serves to strengthen my suspicion that toyota's electronic glitches are just like any other electronic glitches - HIGHLY UNPREDICTABLE. I am NOT surprised at all at what happened to her.
I am also convinced that even the toyota boys are still befuddled with whats going on with their electronics. Like what will happen if you bring your computer or gadget to the service department and ask them what happened.
Chances are they will say " I don't have a clue ! " Because these glitches often does not leave a trail of what has happened. After you reboot, everthings fine again. But unfortunately for people like Saylor, the reboot is sometimes a HARD BANG and crash that ends their lives.
Cats have 9 lives. We DON'T. Remember this.
Its nice to be the manufacturer instead of the supplier. Squeeze them, and when they screw up, or FORCED to cut quality to match the price demanded, still got to make up for it otherwise lose the business.
Who pays the price and inconvenience of such events ? the CONSUMER !
Read this for those who missed it :
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/business/global/24anger.html?_r=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU1VAJmhlyg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XlOA4mhd8
http://sites.google.com/site/toyotasiennadefects/
Now tell me should I go easy on toyota ?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQRkviNDlwo
Bad as the quality of Korean cars more than a decade ago, I have never heard of a Korean car driver suffering a fate like this. And I bet that even a Chinese made car will never let its owner down like this !
Prove me wrong ! Show me just ONE video of a Chinese or Korean car or even American car with such a quality problem that results in the car SWIMMING in the river !
toyota quality ? Right !!
I honestly believe that's one reason BMW residuals are good. Even a 4-year old model would have been dealer maintained the whole time.
Toyota offers 2 years on some models, but IMHO that's not enough. I think Jaguar offers 5. You want 3 years at least, so that the first big service (usually 30,000 miles) is included.
Then again, I do my own maintenance, but I am far from the typical consumer.
In the next you say Nissan is different.
Do you know Carlos Ghosn's nickname?
Le Cost Cutter
Nissan has its own set of problems, just as any manufacturer does. Toyota's have been blown way out of proportion by a mainstream media that simply doesn't understand cars.
Everyone is cutting costs. Even VW does now, did you notice the new Jetta gets a torsion beam rear suspsension and a 115hp 2.slow engine?
Weren't we just discussing a 1999 Camry?
That's from last century. The engines succeptible to sludge were 2 full generations ago.
Voting with the wallet for tens of thousands of hard earned pay check dollars is far more powerful than a jd power chart in my opinion
Then please explain why the Camry is still the best selling car in America, and Toyota the best selling nameplate, and Lexus the best selling luxury nameplate.
Those people all voted with their wallets.
BS in Computer Science, MS in Information Systems, 20 year experience in troubleshooting and technical support.
It's all I do for a living.
I am skeptical because, from experience, I can assure you that the vast majority of problems I come across are at least in part user error. Technology is often the scape goat, they blame "technical difficulties" but usually it's really that they need more training or don't want to admit a mistake.
Good example - people come to me with a faulty BlackBerry. "I have no idea what happened, it just stopped working."
Well, RIM got smart, and added a little moisture sensor behind the back cover. If it gets wet it changes color.
I can't tell you how many times I've found the BlackBerry was wet, and that's the real reason it stopped working.
Then I get a vague confession, "yeah, it was raining hard, my jeans got wet, but I didn't think that was enough....blah blah blah".
Right.
We now carry insurance because this has SO OFTEN and I don't think anyone has ever confessed the whole truth.
Unfortunately we live in a culture where noone takes personal responsibility for their mistakes. Why more Toyota cases than others? Simple - they have a scape goat. So even the REALLY far-fetched stories like the 3-armed grandma are believed and make headlines in the press.
Don't believe me? I just took a photo, I'd be glad to send you a copy. A dozen wet BlackBerrys.
Dana took responsibility, and paid up.
Very simple, really.
15 seconds in to the video, 15 seconds, and already a fault with her story.
"brakes not working..."
The brakes are not by-wire, they are hydraulic.
Didn't you just ask me not to bring up old problems?
I'm not sure about the knuckle just breaking apart by itself, either, he must have hit something.
Ford AND rust: 3.64 million hits
Toyota AND rust: 1.5 million hits
Ford AND rollover: 926,000
Toyota AND rollover: 613,000
Ford AND lemon: 5.2 million
Toyota AND lemon: 1.95 million
Ford AND Unintended Acceleration: 137,000
Toyota AND Unintended Acceleration: 299,000
So SUA is the only one that's higher, and the total for Toyota is way less than half of Ford's major problems.
Before you run off and post more videos of a single case, show me 5 million major problems not mentioned above and beyond Ford's.
That would need to include the automaker trying to cover up the problems reported (not including the ones blocked at the dealer) where the NHSTA was kept in the dark somewhat since 2002.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It was much worse.
Edit: also remember the so called "Books of Knowledge" were given to a lawyer suing Toyota and he found nothing to support his case, and actually dropped his lawsuits.
The disgruntled worker who stole the documents and made that claim had to pay Toyota millions, including punitive damages.
Long-Term Test: 2004 Toyota Prius (Inside Line)
There's a pattern here. The posters supporting toyota wish to discuss only more recent flu-like problems. But that same poster wants to recall older problems from GM and other brands over in different forums.
While some purport to be in the middle, they take only the toyota- supporting side. Then things progress to personal attacks on the poster posters with whom they disagree, even though person attacks and talking about other posters in an identifiable manner are supposed to be against the rules for conduct here.
tlong said in an earlier post: all makers have problems. I think that's exactly my approach all along. The problem is getting the company and its supporters to admit their responsibility for how those are handled: is it by hiding the problems, misleading the NHSTA, blaming the customer, or attacking people pointing out the problems or the indicators thereof.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You should be specific about who you are complaining about.
I would think the manufacturer would pay for that. It is just good business. VW does it. My 2005 GMC got free maintenance via a coupon the dealer sent me in the mail at regular intervals. Not sure if that was GMC or the dealer. It only costs the dealer about 20 bucks to change the oil and filter. It is cheap insurance for the MFG. They can also do any upgrades when the vehicle is in their possession. I only used the Toyota dealer I bought from once. They charged way too much and did not even get my tires filled properly. Part of the reason Toyota dealers rate below average.
My dealer experience with Chevy, GMC, VW and Chrysler on my Sprinter RV was all better than with my Sequoia and Toyota. Toyota charges more for cheapo dino oil changes than Walmart charges for Mobil ONE. And my tires are all at the same pressure without being asked to check them.
I'm sure the 2-year free service costs Toyota next to nothing - we're talking about just a few oil changes, maybe worth a couple hundred.
Expand it to 3+ years, to includes the 30k service, and it would be a lot more appealing.
I was hesitant at first. I used them for the old Lexus and Ranger with good results. Cleaner engine, no spilled oil as with some dealers. I doubt the dealers get any higher caliber techs for oil changes than WalMart. Plus I get MobilOne for the price of 30 wt dino at Toyota. I did use VW for my Passat TDI. Even with $10 per qt oil it was cheaper than a Toyota oil change. I think some dealer service is over rated.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110112/OEM09/110119895/1425- #ixzz1Aw9Aj1Xk
I don't use the Toyota dealer for scheduled maintenance, though I'll admit they treated me very well (free car wash) when I had the tire carrier recall performed.
The day consisted of 3 separate “tests”, each one using a class of 25-30 undergraduate students.
All tests involved the use of several 2 liter bottles of a locally popular diet soft drink, given in three separate (and identified) cups, and which brand was hidden from the participants’ view. All responses were private (written on paper), and no discussion between students was allowed, except in test three.
On the first class, we gave each student three 4 oz cups of the soft drink and asked them to state which one of the three was different from the other two. We also told them that it was likely that all three were the same brand soft drink.
Almost 90% stated they could not tell any difference between the three cups.
On the second class, we gave out the same exact soft drink samples, but this time, we told them that one of the samples was definitely different than the other two, and we asked them to identify the “odd” cup (cups were labeled “a, b, and c”).
This time, over a little over half the class identified at least one difference, and the distribution between a, b and c was slightly weighted towards “a”. Around 40% stated they could not tell any difference.
On the third class, we once again handed out 3 samples to each student, and we told the students once again that one of the samples was definitely different than the other two, and asked them to identify it. This time, however, we allowed them to discuss the drink tastes for five minutes before submitting a response.
In the responses this time, well over 90% identified an “odd” cola, and over 75% of the responses identified “b” as the one.
What I learned from the exercise was that statistical results based upon human sensory perception and attitudes can be easily manipulated. Indeed, you see the very same process used in surveys today, with “pre-loaded” questions as an example.
In Toyota’s case, it shows that once people have an expectation of a problem, quite often they find one, whether it truly exist or not. Without someone being able to reproduce or absolutely identify the problem, no one can say with any certainty that a problem exists or not.
Thanks for the free soda. LOL
Here's a simple experiment anyone can try in their group of friends, especially around men.
Take a quick survey and ask each one if he thinks he's a better-than-average driver. I bet 90% of them will say they are, if you take a big enough sample.
Yet the truth is 50%, by definition.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
> 90% identified an “odd” cola, and over 75% of the responses identified “b” as the one
Was the variable of order of tasting the alphbetically-labelled cups tested? Was one group tasting "B" followed by "C" then "A," e.g. I realize the communication factor was a variable being tested, but I think there is more to be interesting in this experience along with the communication variable.
Very interesting. Does it apply to cars? There's a completely different aspect to communication and data-finding in re cars compared to real time tasting of cola samples.
>, you see the very same process used in surveys today, with “pre-loaded” questions as an example.
Indeed. Many polls do ask questions designed and arranged in an order to lead the target to a directed answer.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I never said it was the same, just something else you could try.
Same thing occurs with people's defense of their preference of auto brands.
I've owned more Fords, Mazdas, and Subarus, than I have Toyotas. Not applicable, sorry.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You weren't mentioned in the post. It was a general statement.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But think about it - the opposite is *FAR* more truthful!
People attack the brands they hate. That's the motive behind every Troll.
And yes, that includes the so-called "Toyota Fanboys" you allude to that don't really participate in this thread, but must have offended you in the past, as you seem to hold a major grudge against them.
You seem to be motivated by revenge.
Because he answers all of the posts, it is assumed. LMAO!!
Not all of them.
But, as it relates to the topic of UA (which is really what we are discussing ), it demonstrates what behavior one sees when expectations have been altered.
A simple test to try: Take your car and have the alignment checked out . Have it corrected as necessary. Then , have some respected friends drive it say 16-20 people.
Tell the first half of them you just want to get an opinion of how they like your car before taking the drive, and tell the other half that you think the car is showing signs of pulling slightly to the left before taking the drive.
After the drive, ask each driver his opinion of the car and its driving characteristics. You will most likely find a higher number in the second group identifying an alignment problem as an issue.
I've noticed that a couple of people who participate in this thread & who consistently make anti-Toyota remarks also participate in a thread about what it means to buy American. In that other thread, they have expressed anti-import views & have even called for tariffs on all imported cars.
It displeases them that some of us prefer & buy import brands - even when those imports are built in U.S. factories.
So I have to wonder if it's possible for them to objectively discuss Toyota's problems. I suspect that they'd rather spin this into a more general diatribe aimed at all imports.
I won't mention their names. They know who they are.
To me, no manufacturer holds its customer's welfare over its own profits... that's just a fact of life in any large corporation today.
At the same time, before I accuse any entity of making corrupt products, I want a little more solid evidence than a few youtube videos and personal testimonies...